Ideas for epic spells - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Caker Oct 02, 2014 13:07:01	So my DM has recently told me that we will in fact be going into epic levels, and that epic spell casting is on the table. So what kind of spells should I be looking to develop? This is assuming no cheese involved with spellcraft reducers (like an army of followers contributing spell slots and similar things). Current build looks like: wiz5/motao 10/archmage 5. I can currently make a spellcraft check of: 10(take 10) + 40(24 ranks + 3 focus + 13 int) + 25 (moment of prescience) = 79. Any other ways of increasing the check? I am mostly looking at defensive buffs to give myself, that will last 24 hours or longer. Any help is greatly appreciated.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 02, 2014 13:24:32	What counts as cheese with epic spells is a very personal, subjective, thing, and that's by design. For instance, for some, it's not cheese if your spell requires rolling a wheelbarrow full of d6 for determining backlash damage, only to cast the spell while under the influence of Timeless Body. (Just design the spell to come into effect the round after it's cast; we see this in powers like Schism.) Without knowing a psych profile for your DM, I don't think we could answer this question. As to the spellcraft question... ....Incidentally, it looks like you're using 3e rules, not 3.5, since Skill Focus is giving +2 instead of +3. If that's the case, items that give bonuses to skills are undercosted - they're dirt cheap and have no upper limit (I've seen +30 on a single item before). Craft a bunch of +Spellcraft items, each using different bonus types (competence, morale, sacred, profane, insight, and luck are all good examples of bonus types most people don't bat an eye at; circumstance should be on this list but will be harder to justify) and possibly fuse them into a single item (since +Skill items are cheap in 3e, the markup for multiple special effects is going to be minor, especially with epic wealth) and walk away with a cool +180 on top of your check.
#3 Caker Oct 02, 2014 19:29:41	As far as the actual spells themselves go, they can be of any powerlevel, but the spellcraft check can't be "cheated" in any way. Reducers are perfectly fine, as they were meant to be used, as an actual drawback. Also, we are using 3.5 rules, the +2 was just a typo on my part.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 03, 2014 10:08:22	Caker wrote:
#5 Caker Oct 03, 2014 13:25:59	Although not officially an allowed source, I can probably swing it, one of the other players is using a wild shape form from a faerun book. What kind of spell would come out of the mythal seed for example?
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 03, 2014 14:19:05	The better question is, what sort of spell can't come out of a mythal. The basic seed is a permanent 100-foot emanation with a base DC of 25. You get to pick up to one component per caster level to plug into the mythal when designing it. Mythal components include "prevalent" spells (persistent effects throughout the entire field; there's even ways to recharge spells that discharge), "arointed" spells (these spells automatically fail; unlike the others, this can extend to descriptors, subschools, or even entire schools, and can be limited by spell level), "vanguard" spells (think command word items), and "prevalent" powers (which explicitly includes things not describable as spells, but on par with them). Each component is paid for individually, increasing the cost (and DC) of the final mythal accordingly - there's even ways to modify each of the components (for instance, you might want certain effects to extend only to specific types of creature, or individuals who have been specifically chosen by you, or anyone holding a specific focus, etc). Finally, there's specific mitigating factors unique to the Mythal seed, such as having it decay over time (i.e. over centuries; you can then use the duration factor to increase this) or linking it to a particular object (i.e. a great tree, which can be protected by any number of special wards, and can be made "portable" via Acorn of Far Travel). And that's just the Mythal seed on its own, without any other factors on it (i.e. changing the target so it moves with you, using the well-known Fortify-for-0-SR stunt to reduce the DC, or adding on other seeds for epic effects that accompany or buffer the casting). Mythal alone is pretty badass, particularly on the defensive front - it's a single spell that does anything a persistomancer of any stripe could do, and then some. I mean, nothing stops you from putting down a prevalent Antimagic Field + prevalent Planar Bubble (anywhere with Flowing Time), and a vanguard Disjunction or whatever, All, naturally, keyed to only function for people who are (for buffs) or aren't (for debuffs) holding a little plushie of your cat. This is without attaching any other epic seeds to the effect, and there's still plenty of room left for extra components in that single mythal.
#7 Caker Oct 03, 2014 14:23:59	Huh, I was unaware that this seed existed until you brought it to my attention. Seems to do everything you want and then some. Let's say it isn't allowed (haven't heard back from the DM yet), what am I looking at then? I already know that the end goal of this epic level campaign is to stop a demi-god lich. Anything I should develop to deal with that vague description?
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 03, 2014 14:49:25	I'm not an epic specialist - I usually ignore Epic Spellcasting if levels get that high, which is in itself rare - but I know enough to point out that the typical use of epic magic is for either uber-buffs, or world-changing effects (i.e. origin of species). Offensive epic spells are flashy, but usually way too expensive and easily blocked. A quick search keeps turning up Esoteric Aegis as a template, though. The spell was from the community project from Dicefreaks called The Gates of Hell, which was only partially about epic material, but chapter 2 is full of epic spells, including this one. It's not a bad place to start. Esoteric Aegis Esoteric Aegis Abjuration. Spellcraft DC: 83 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Personal Effect: 10-ft. radius emanation Duration: 24 hours Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No To Develop: 747,000 gp, 15 days, 29,880 XP. Seeds: ward (DC 14), transform (DC 21). Factors: gain +10 bonus on DC to avoid being dispelled (ad hoc +20), make spell effect tenacious (as per the feat) (ad hoc +10), end dispel checks that fail to dispel this spell automati- cally (ad hoc +4), ward against mage’s disjunction (+16). Mitigating factors: change range from touch to personal (-2) The caster calls upon the very fabric of magic to fash- ion a ward to protect his own working of the Word from those that would tear it down. A shimmering, dusky globe surrounds the caster, intercepting any attempts to end his spells by means of dispel magic, or similar spells and epic spells, and providing a +10 bonus on the DC against which the dispel attempt must succeed. Any dis- pel attempt which succeeds can then proceed as normal, but esoteric aegis works as if under the effects of the Tenacious Magic feat, and thus cannot be dispelled, only suppressed for 1d4 rounds. Dispel attempts that fail are not entitled to checks against lesser spells within the area of effect (this differs from the usual procedure of area dispel magic attempts). Furthermore, mage’s disjunction is warded against in its entirety. My suggestion? Amp up that DC bonus, as +10 is pretty dinky against serious spellcasters (and you can get +5 from nonepic effects! Seriously, you'd think some designers would have learned psionics by the time this came out...), and your buffsuite is your weak point. Discussion also occasionally brings up adding an escape clause from antimagic fields, but how you go about that is up to you.
#9 Caker Oct 04, 2014 7:20:05	See, I actually ran across that spell in my use of google-fu, but didn't quite understand the mechanics behind it. Why does it have the transform seed? How are they adding feat effects to the spell? I don't see that in the list of factors or anywhere else in the section about epic spells. The only factors that I can officially see rules for are warding against disjunction, and increasing the dispel DC.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Caker

Oct 02, 2014 13:07:01

So my DM has recently told me that we will in fact be going into epic levels, and that epic spell casting is on the table. So what kind of spells should I be looking to develop? This is assuming no cheese involved with spellcraft reducers (like an army of followers contributing spell slots and similar things). Current build looks like: wiz5/motao 10/archmage 5. I can currently make a spellcraft check of: 10(take 10) + 40(24 ranks + 3 focus + 13 int) + 25 (moment of prescience) = 79. Any other ways of increasing the check? I am mostly looking at defensive buffs to give myself, that will last 24 hours or longer.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 02, 2014 13:24:32

What counts as cheese with epic spells is a very personal, subjective, thing, and that's by design. For instance, for some, it's not cheese if your spell requires rolling a wheelbarrow full of d6 for determining backlash damage, only to cast the spell while under the influence of Timeless Body. (Just design the spell to come into effect the round after it's cast; we see this in powers like Schism.)

Without knowing a psych profile for your DM, I don't think we could answer this question.

As to the spellcraft question...

....Incidentally, it looks like you're using 3e rules, not 3.5, since Skill Focus is giving +2 instead of +3. If that's the case, items that give bonuses to skills are undercosted - they're dirt cheap and have no upper limit (I've seen +30 on a single item before). Craft a bunch of +Spellcraft items, each using different bonus types (competence, morale, sacred, profane, insight, and luck are all good examples of bonus types most people don't bat an eye at; circumstance should be on this list but will be harder to justify) and possibly fuse them into a single item (since +Skill items are cheap in 3e, the markup for multiple special effects is going to be minor, especially with epic wealth) and walk away with a cool +180 on top of your check.

Caker

Oct 02, 2014 19:29:41

As far as the actual spells themselves go, they can be of any powerlevel, but the spellcraft check can't be "cheated" in any way. Reducers are perfectly fine, as they were meant to be used, as an actual drawback. Also, we are using 3.5 rules, the +2 was just a typo on my part.

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 03, 2014 10:08:22

Caker wrote:

Caker

Oct 03, 2014 13:25:59

Although not officially an allowed source, I can probably swing it, one of the other players is using a wild shape form from a faerun book. What kind of spell would come out of the mythal seed for example?

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 03, 2014 14:19:05

The better question is, what sort of spell can't come out of a mythal.

The basic seed is a permanent 100-foot emanation with a base DC of 25. You get to pick up to one component per caster level to plug into the mythal when designing it. Mythal components include "prevalent" spells (persistent effects throughout the entire field; there's even ways to recharge spells that discharge), "arointed" spells (these spells automatically fail; unlike the others, this can extend to descriptors, subschools, or even entire schools, and can be limited by spell level), "vanguard" spells (think command word items), and "prevalent" powers (which explicitly includes things not describable as spells, but on par with them). Each component is paid for individually, increasing the cost (and DC) of the final mythal accordingly - there's even ways to modify each of the components (for instance, you might want certain effects to extend only to specific types of creature, or individuals who have been specifically chosen by you, or anyone holding a specific focus, etc). Finally, there's specific mitigating factors unique to the Mythal seed, such as having it decay over time (i.e. over centuries; you can then use the duration factor to increase this) or linking it to a particular object (i.e. a great tree, which can be protected by any number of special wards, and can be made "portable" via Acorn of Far Travel).

And that's just the Mythal seed on its own, without any other factors on it (i.e. changing the target so it moves with you, using the well-known Fortify-for-0-SR stunt to reduce the DC, or adding on other seeds for epic effects that accompany or buffer the casting). Mythal alone is pretty badass, particularly on the defensive front - it's a single spell that does anything a persistomancer of any stripe could do, and then some.

I mean, nothing stops you from putting down a prevalent Antimagic Field + prevalent Planar Bubble (anywhere with Flowing Time), and a vanguard Disjunction or whatever, All, naturally, keyed to only function for people who are (for buffs) or aren't (for debuffs) holding a little plushie of your cat. This is without attaching any other epic seeds to the effect, and there's still plenty of room left for extra components in that single mythal.

Caker

Oct 03, 2014 14:23:59

Huh, I was unaware that this seed existed until you brought it to my attention. Seems to do everything you want and then some. Let's say it isn't allowed (haven't heard back from the DM yet), what am I looking at then? I already know that the end goal of this epic level campaign is to stop a demi-god lich. Anything I should develop to deal with that vague description?

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 03, 2014 14:49:25

I'm not an epic specialist - I usually ignore Epic Spellcasting if levels get that high, which is in itself rare - but I know enough to point out that the typical use of epic magic is for either uber-buffs, or world-changing effects (i.e. origin of species). Offensive epic spells are flashy, but usually way too expensive and easily blocked.

A quick search keeps turning up Esoteric Aegis as a template, though. The spell was from the community project from Dicefreaks called The Gates of Hell, which was only partially about epic material, but chapter 2 is full of epic spells, including this one. It's not a bad place to start.

Esoteric Aegis

Esoteric Aegis
Abjuration.
Spellcraft DC: 83
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Personal
Effect: 10-ft. radius emanation
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
To Develop: 747,000 gp, 15 days, 29,880 XP. Seeds:
ward (DC 14), transform (DC 21). Factors: gain +10
bonus on DC to avoid being dispelled (ad hoc +20),
make spell effect tenacious (as per the feat) (ad hoc +10),
end dispel checks that fail to dispel this spell automati-
cally (ad hoc +4), ward against mage’s disjunction (+16).
Mitigating factors: change range from touch to personal
(-2)

The caster calls upon the very fabric of magic to fash-
ion a ward to protect his own working of the Word from
those that would tear it down. A shimmering, dusky
globe surrounds the caster, intercepting any attempts to
end his spells by means of dispel magic, or similar spells
and epic spells, and providing a +10 bonus on the DC
against which the dispel attempt must succeed. Any dis-
pel attempt which succeeds can then proceed as normal,
but esoteric aegis works as if under the effects of the
Tenacious Magic feat, and thus cannot be dispelled, only
suppressed for 1d4 rounds. Dispel attempts that fail are
not entitled to checks against lesser spells within the area
of effect (this differs from the usual procedure of area
dispel magic attempts). Furthermore, mage’s disjunction
is warded against in its entirety.

My suggestion? Amp up that DC bonus, as +10 is pretty dinky against serious spellcasters (and you can get +5 from nonepic effects! Seriously, you'd think some designers would have learned psionics by the time this came out...), and your buffsuite is your weak point. Discussion also occasionally brings up adding an escape clause from antimagic fields, but how you go about that is up to you.

Caker

Oct 04, 2014 7:20:05

See, I actually ran across that spell in my use of google-fu, but didn't quite understand the mechanics behind it. Why does it have the transform seed? How are they adding feat effects to the spell? I don't see that in the list of factors or anywhere else in the section about epic spells. The only factors that I can officially see rules for are warding against disjunction, and increasing the dispel DC.