Ideas for optimization - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Ideas for optimization

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
deathlessjuan
Aug 20, 2008 18:09:41 I'm not one to talk, so let's jump right to it.

ECL 25, epic game. No epic spells (at all).

The level progession is not optimized, but that is not what I would like help with.

Duskblade 1
Wizard 4
Prestige Bard 1
Ur-Priest 1
Chameleon 10
Mystic Theurge 1 (boost ur-priest and wizard)
Sublime Chord 1
Mystic Theurge 6 (boost ur-priest and sublime chord)

8th level arcane spellcasting (sublime chord)
8th level divine spellcasting (ur-priest)
6th level arcane spellcasting (chameleon)
6th level divine spellcasting (chameleon)
3rd level arcane casting (wizard)
1st level arcane casting (Duskblade)

MAD intensive (high CHA, INT and WIS need for spellcasting)

Books: I have access to all 3.5e books, except ToB, ToM, and SpC

Stats are yet to be determined (6d6 roll 7, drop lowest set and lowest 3 dice in each set)

Ending alignment will be True Neutral (can not be evil, DM campaign rule)

Things I would like suggestions on:
Feats (caster level may need work), I am tempted for Unarmed Strike, Deflect arrows, Combat expertise, Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection (if stats allow) just to keep pesky mages from firing ray spells at me.
Items (non-custom) Belt of Magnificense +6 would be useful
Easier way to make said build? 9th level casting (both divine and arcane) on top of 6th level spells from chameleon would be ideal. ic ould not find a way (though I am away from my books atm)

Other than that, any thoughts? Thanks for stopping by!
#2
arcane-surge
Aug 20, 2008 18:35:28 I'm pretty sure that Chameleon spellcasting won't qualify you for Sublime Chord, so you might want to find another way in, like 3rd level spells + Sanctum Spell.
#3
deathlessjuan
Aug 20, 2008 19:00:38 You are right. Chameleon won't qualify for Sublime chord. That is what the wizard is for. If I recall correctly, Sublime chord requires 3rd level spells. Wizard 4 + 1 level of mystic theurge will grant 3rd level spells.

If I am wrong (and they need 4th level spells), I am going to feel stupid.
#4
arcane-surge
Aug 20, 2008 19:34:19 Yep. My mistake. I thought you needed fourth level spells. If you took a level of Spellthief and took the Master Spellthief feat from Complete Scoundrel, it'd help your caster level, possibly a lot (It makes your arcane caster levels all stack for arcane spells...Sort of).
#5
deathlessjuan
Aug 20, 2008 19:37:17 Ok, cool *wipes sweat off forehead* My memory is still good, lol

I had thought of spellthief and taking masterspellthief as my bonus feat for chameleon would rule, but ... where would it fit into the build?

If I drop prestige bard, no sublime chord, which means no 8th level arcane spells. If I drop duskblade, won't beet fort save requirement for ur-priest. If I drop even 1 level of mystic theurge, I only get 7th level divine and arcane spells.

Blast! My head hurts now
#6
reis
Aug 21, 2008 0:14:18 multispell prolly pretty good choice since you have so many slots to quicken with, possibly improved metamagic

with that much casting i wouldn't take infinite/exceptional deflection because you can just use defensive spells to avoid rays and arrows, etc

I think there's a way to get 9th level arcane and divine casting with sublime chord and ur-priest but it doesn't include chameleon, check the sublime chord compilation
#7
natenate
Aug 21, 2008 1:21:58 Note that Ur-Priest has a prerequisite of an evil alignment, so if you cease to meet that requirement then you'll lose access to its class features, as well as losing access to the class features of any other PrCs you were using Ur-Priest abilities to qualify for. For example, you'd completely lose access to any spellcasting increases granted by Mystic Theurge by switching to a nonevil alignment, since you'd lose the Ur-Priest spells that qualified you for it. Also note that if you take your first Mystic Theurge level before gaining your first Sublime Chord level, you can never apply the spellcasting increases of Mystic Theurge to your Sublime Chord casting because it can only be applied to a class you belonged to before first gaining the prestige class.

I'd use something like this instead:
Illumian, Krau-anything, Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8. With Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler you can apply +10 levels of Ultimate Magus spellcasting to Wizard. Get Enhanced Power Sigils, and take Practiced Spellcaster for both Wizard and Ur-Priest on or after level 12. Put four of your Mystic Theurge arcane levels into Beguiler, the rest into Wizard.

That gets 12th level Beguiler spellcasting at caster level 23, 18th level Wizard spellcasting at caster level 25, and 10th level Ur-Priest spellcasting at caster level 19. You can spend Beguiler spell slots to add metamagic feats for free to your Wizard spells of up to 5th level, higher if you take epic levels of Ultimate Magus later on. This will allow you to Persist quite a few arcane spells for free, plus you can get Divine Metamagic: Persistent for your Ur-Priest spells. You won't need to even worry about preparing a lot of types of Wizard spells since you can spontaneously cast quite a bit from Beguiler. It also only uses Int and Wis for spellcasting, so you can dump Cha and make your other stats that much better.
#8
bergtann
Aug 21, 2008 4:53:29 Not to mention that you are five levels into epic without qualifying for Epic feats, as I understand the rules.

Non-evil would seem to shoot down Ur-Priest. If you want a dual caster, why not try an Arcane Hierophant build?
Druid 5/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/AH 15 for a strict interpretation of qualifying for PrCs. 20th level casting for both Wizard and Druid if my shaky knowledge of Epic rules is right, plus Wildshaping as a 20th level druid, plus other goodies.

Edit: Another option, if you can do without the extra spell slots, is to simply play Beguiler (or Warmage) 10/Rainbow Servant 15. That far in, the 6/10 or 10/10 debate becomes almost pointless.
#9
deathlessjuan
Aug 21, 2008 12:00:52 Ah, just found the alignment restirction rules. I should really look on the errata page more often.

My DM has ruled that no evil (prestige)class can be taken. Something to do with being "historical" evil and all that. That's no big deal. Makes my character concept simpler.

I have changed the concept to Domain Wizard (illusion)5 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Chameleon 10. This allows the same thing, but not with as many spells per day. (The idea is not dual casting, but quadruple casting, even if the other two casting classes are gimped to 6th level. I can pick any spell I want). We are using the 10/10 casting progression (text trumps table) for rainbow servant.

As for epic feats, once you reach 21st level, you qualify to take epic feats. Feats that require more than just 21+ level (like 9th level casting for epic spellcasting) would not be available for my character. Epic spellcasting is useless though, as the DM has ruled there is no epic spellcasting (ie, spells that require spellcraft checks to cast).

Exceptional deflection + Infinite deflection is actually quite effective, since as long as you are not flat footed and are aware of the attack (and have a free hand), there is no save/roll needed to deflect the spell. Buffs can be gotten around (especially with high caster levels) since my caster level won't be maxed. Evasion would be ideal for those non-ray, evocation spells that do HP damage and allow reflex save.
#10
natenate
Aug 21, 2008 13:51:05 It doesn't matter how many lists you get to cast from if all of your spellcasting ability is severely gimped. How is this character going to defeat any opponents? You'll never be able to overcome their SR at level 25 with a caster level of only 15, and you won't even have 9th level spells to choose from. The concept behind this character is seriously flawed, and maybe you should rethink it in order to play something that will be viable at that level.

Forget Chameleon, it's not worth using in the epic levels. It doesn't help any of your other classes, it doesn't help your character be any better at his chosen role. "Casting spells from four lists" is not a character role. Read the Batman Wizard thread, and go Wizard 5/ Rainbow Servant 10/ Incantatrix 10 and be an asset to your party rather than a burden.
#11
deathlessjuan
Aug 21, 2008 14:05:06 This character is not designed to tackle enemies straight on. You seem to have missed that. This character will be the ultimate magic swiss army knife. I will buff the group and let them beat the crap out of whatever pisses them off. I do not need to take the limelight to enjoy my gaming sessions. Caster Level can be boosted rather high if the right feats are taken. Ioun Stone, Practised Spellcaster and Robe of the Archmagi are just three ways of boosting the Caster level (to 21). Hell, I could even spend a bit of gold to have a heaband crafted to boost my caster level an additional 4 points to meet par, not to mention taking Spell penetration feats to overcome spell resistance.

I am not looking to be the ZOMG!!1!! Uber best mage!!11!shift1!! We will have 4-6 people in the group. I have simply chosen to play the role of 'all around magic backup' so no one else has to and I can have a lot of fun with it.

From me, character concept > character build. Character build only helps me get towards my goal. Everything else is just mechanics.

NPC: There is a monster attacking the village, Help us!
Me: *looks over and spots a few mindflayers* Um, I can't help you.
NPC: What do you mean!? You are the famous heroes of the realm!
Me: *ignores NPC until he is finished buffing the rest of the group and prepares to teleport them into the fight* Oh, sorry. I meant 'I can't help you, but these guys can'.

A few minutes later

Me: Well, I call dibs on any strange scrolls you guys find. Otherwise, I'll be over there, making something useful.
#12
bergtann
Aug 22, 2008 8:15:57 Well, you are completly right about epic feats, I got a houserule confused with a real rule, I guess.

On the character, it seems you could fill your concept with Wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 10/War Weaver 5/Wyrm Wizard 2/Any PrC level 3. 9th level arcane and divine, and tapestry spells for that really hefty arcane boosting, grab 5th level Heal of the Adept list with Wyrm Wizard and put in the tapestry.

Or If you really want that Chamelon 10, Bard 5 + Chameleon 10 + Sublime Chord 1 + War Weaver 4 + Combat Medic 5? I am away from books so I am unsure what order you'd have to build it in. You should get 9th level arcane spells, tapestry boosting, and Heal spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 deathlessjuan Aug 20, 2008 18:09:41	I'm not one to talk, so let's jump right to it. ECL 25, epic game. No epic spells (at all). The level progession is not optimized, but that is not what I would like help with. Duskblade 1 Wizard 4 Prestige Bard 1 Ur-Priest 1 Chameleon 10 Mystic Theurge 1 (boost ur-priest and wizard) Sublime Chord 1 Mystic Theurge 6 (boost ur-priest and sublime chord) 8th level arcane spellcasting (sublime chord) 8th level divine spellcasting (ur-priest) 6th level arcane spellcasting (chameleon) 6th level divine spellcasting (chameleon) 3rd level arcane casting (wizard) 1st level arcane casting (Duskblade) MAD intensive (high CHA, INT and WIS need for spellcasting) Books: I have access to all 3.5e books, except ToB, ToM, and SpC Stats are yet to be determined (6d6 roll 7, drop lowest set and lowest 3 dice in each set) Ending alignment will be True Neutral (can not be evil, DM campaign rule) Things I would like suggestions on: Feats (caster level may need work), I am tempted for Unarmed Strike, Deflect arrows, Combat expertise, Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection (if stats allow) just to keep pesky mages from firing ray spells at me. Items (non-custom) Belt of Magnificense +6 would be useful Easier way to make said build? 9th level casting (both divine and arcane) on top of 6th level spells from chameleon would be ideal. ic ould not find a way (though I am away from my books atm) Other than that, any thoughts? Thanks for stopping by!
#2 arcane-surge Aug 20, 2008 18:35:28	I'm pretty sure that Chameleon spellcasting won't qualify you for Sublime Chord, so you might want to find another way in, like 3rd level spells + Sanctum Spell.
#3 deathlessjuan Aug 20, 2008 19:00:38	You are right. Chameleon won't qualify for Sublime chord. That is what the wizard is for. If I recall correctly, Sublime chord requires 3rd level spells. Wizard 4 + 1 level of mystic theurge will grant 3rd level spells. If I am wrong (and they need 4th level spells), I am going to feel stupid.
#4 arcane-surge Aug 20, 2008 19:34:19	Yep. My mistake. I thought you needed fourth level spells. If you took a level of Spellthief and took the Master Spellthief feat from Complete Scoundrel, it'd help your caster level, possibly a lot (It makes your arcane caster levels all stack for arcane spells...Sort of).
#5 deathlessjuan Aug 20, 2008 19:37:17	Ok, cool wipes sweat off forehead My memory is still good, lol I had thought of spellthief and taking masterspellthief as my bonus feat for chameleon would rule, but ... where would it fit into the build? If I drop prestige bard, no sublime chord, which means no 8th level arcane spells. If I drop duskblade, won't beet fort save requirement for ur-priest. If I drop even 1 level of mystic theurge, I only get 7th level divine and arcane spells. Blast! My head hurts now
#6 reis Aug 21, 2008 0:14:18	multispell prolly pretty good choice since you have so many slots to quicken with, possibly improved metamagic with that much casting i wouldn't take infinite/exceptional deflection because you can just use defensive spells to avoid rays and arrows, etc I think there's a way to get 9th level arcane and divine casting with sublime chord and ur-priest but it doesn't include chameleon, check the sublime chord compilation
#7 natenate Aug 21, 2008 1:21:58	Note that Ur-Priest has a prerequisite of an evil alignment, so if you cease to meet that requirement then you'll lose access to its class features, as well as losing access to the class features of any other PrCs you were using Ur-Priest abilities to qualify for. For example, you'd completely lose access to any spellcasting increases granted by Mystic Theurge by switching to a nonevil alignment, since you'd lose the Ur-Priest spells that qualified you for it. Also note that if you take your first Mystic Theurge level before gaining your first Sublime Chord level, you can never apply the spellcasting increases of Mystic Theurge to your Sublime Chord casting because it can only be applied to a class you belonged to before first gaining the prestige class. I'd use something like this instead: Illumian, Krau-anything, Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8. With Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler you can apply +10 levels of Ultimate Magus spellcasting to Wizard. Get Enhanced Power Sigils, and take Practiced Spellcaster for both Wizard and Ur-Priest on or after level 12. Put four of your Mystic Theurge arcane levels into Beguiler, the rest into Wizard. That gets 12th level Beguiler spellcasting at caster level 23, 18th level Wizard spellcasting at caster level 25, and 10th level Ur-Priest spellcasting at caster level 19. You can spend Beguiler spell slots to add metamagic feats for free to your Wizard spells of up to 5th level, higher if you take epic levels of Ultimate Magus later on. This will allow you to Persist quite a few arcane spells for free, plus you can get Divine Metamagic: Persistent for your Ur-Priest spells. You won't need to even worry about preparing a lot of types of Wizard spells since you can spontaneously cast quite a bit from Beguiler. It also only uses Int and Wis for spellcasting, so you can dump Cha and make your other stats that much better.
#8 bergtann Aug 21, 2008 4:53:29	Not to mention that you are five levels into epic without qualifying for Epic feats, as I understand the rules. Non-evil would seem to shoot down Ur-Priest. If you want a dual caster, why not try an Arcane Hierophant build? Druid 5/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/AH 15 for a strict interpretation of qualifying for PrCs. 20th level casting for both Wizard and Druid if my shaky knowledge of Epic rules is right, plus Wildshaping as a 20th level druid, plus other goodies. Edit: Another option, if you can do without the extra spell slots, is to simply play Beguiler (or Warmage) 10/Rainbow Servant 15. That far in, the 6/10 or 10/10 debate becomes almost pointless.
#9 deathlessjuan Aug 21, 2008 12:00:52	Ah, just found the alignment restirction rules. I should really look on the errata page more often. My DM has ruled that no evil (prestige)class can be taken. Something to do with being "historical" evil and all that. That's no big deal. Makes my character concept simpler. I have changed the concept to Domain Wizard (illusion)5 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Chameleon 10. This allows the same thing, but not with as many spells per day. (The idea is not dual casting, but quadruple casting, even if the other two casting classes are gimped to 6th level. I can pick any spell I want). We are using the 10/10 casting progression (text trumps table) for rainbow servant. As for epic feats, once you reach 21st level, you qualify to take epic feats. Feats that require more than just 21+ level (like 9th level casting for epic spellcasting) would not be available for my character. Epic spellcasting is useless though, as the DM has ruled there is no epic spellcasting (ie, spells that require spellcraft checks to cast). Exceptional deflection + Infinite deflection is actually quite effective, since as long as you are not flat footed and are aware of the attack (and have a free hand), there is no save/roll needed to deflect the spell. Buffs can be gotten around (especially with high caster levels) since my caster level won't be maxed. Evasion would be ideal for those non-ray, evocation spells that do HP damage and allow reflex save.
#10 natenate Aug 21, 2008 13:51:05	It doesn't matter how many lists you get to cast from if all of your spellcasting ability is severely gimped. How is this character going to defeat any opponents? You'll never be able to overcome their SR at level 25 with a caster level of only 15, and you won't even have 9th level spells to choose from. The concept behind this character is seriously flawed, and maybe you should rethink it in order to play something that will be viable at that level. Forget Chameleon, it's not worth using in the epic levels. It doesn't help any of your other classes, it doesn't help your character be any better at his chosen role. "Casting spells from four lists" is not a character role. Read the Batman Wizard thread, and go Wizard 5/ Rainbow Servant 10/ Incantatrix 10 and be an asset to your party rather than a burden.
#11 deathlessjuan Aug 21, 2008 14:05:06	This character is not designed to tackle enemies straight on. You seem to have missed that. This character will be the ultimate magic swiss army knife. I will buff the group and let them beat the crap out of whatever pisses them off. I do not need to take the limelight to enjoy my gaming sessions. Caster Level can be boosted rather high if the right feats are taken. Ioun Stone, Practised Spellcaster and Robe of the Archmagi are just three ways of boosting the Caster level (to 21). Hell, I could even spend a bit of gold to have a heaband crafted to boost my caster level an additional 4 points to meet par, not to mention taking Spell penetration feats to overcome spell resistance. I am not looking to be the ZOMG!!1!! Uber best mage!!11!shift1!! We will have 4-6 people in the group. I have simply chosen to play the role of 'all around magic backup' so no one else has to and I can have a lot of fun with it. From me, character concept > character build. Character build only helps me get towards my goal. Everything else is just mechanics. NPC: There is a monster attacking the village, Help us! Me: looks over and spots a few mindflayers Um, I can't help you. NPC: What do you mean!? You are the famous heroes of the realm! Me: ignores NPC until he is finished buffing the rest of the group and prepares to teleport them into the fight Oh, sorry. I meant 'I can't help you, but these guys can'. A few minutes later Me: Well, I call dibs on any strange scrolls you guys find. Otherwise, I'll be over there, making something useful.
#12 bergtann Aug 22, 2008 8:15:57	Well, you are completly right about epic feats, I got a houserule confused with a real rule, I guess. On the character, it seems you could fill your concept with Wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 10/War Weaver 5/Wyrm Wizard 2/Any PrC level 3. 9th level arcane and divine, and tapestry spells for that really hefty arcane boosting, grab 5th level Heal of the Adept list with Wyrm Wizard and put in the tapestry. Or If you really want that Chamelon 10, Bard 5 + Chameleon 10 + Sublime Chord 1 + War Weaver 4 + Combat Medic 5? I am away from books so I am unsure what order you'd have to build it in. You should get 9th level arcane spells, tapestry boosting, and Heal spells.