Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 RogerWilco Apr 30, 2013 15:58:36	I know about Disguise Self/Hat of Disguise, Alter Self/Polymorph, Disguise Kit, Vestment of Many Styles and the Disguise skill it self, with its bonus from 5 ranks in Bluff. Are there any other things to increase the Disguise skill, especially non-magical? (Not affected by True Seeing) Thanks.
#2 StevenO Apr 30, 2013 16:33:20	I'd guess that you could, at least in theory, make an item that gives you a compentence bonus to Disguise.  Think of something like a Ring of Jumping but for Disguise instead.  The cost for such an item is bonus squared x 100 gp which would mean 90k for an item that gives you +30.  I do not recall what the limits on those types of item are but because that bonus would not be based in illusion/transformation True Seeing shouldn't be able to touch it.  At the very least you should be able to get a +10 competence bonus as there are clear precidents for that with magic items.
#3 RogerWilco Apr 30, 2013 16:55:29	I'd guess that you could, at least in theory, make an item that gives you a compentence bonus to Disguise.  Think of something like a Ring of Jumping but for Disguise instead.  The cost for such an item is bonus squared x 100 gp which would mean 90k for an item that gives you +30.  I do not recall what the limits on those types of item are but because that bonus would not be based in illusion/transformation True Seeing shouldn't be able to touch it.  At the very least you should be able to get a +10 competence bonus as there are clear precidents for that with magic items.   It's an idea although I'm not sure if our DM would think it would get past True Seeing. It depends on how he would interpret mundane disguises and "changed things" in the spell's description.
#4 StevenO Apr 30, 2013 17:53:34	All this would do is improve a character's own ability.  The "disguise" he creates would still be completely mundane allowing it to bypass True Seeing even if some kind of magic is used to give him that added knowledge. If your DM wants to screw you over with True Seeing there really isn't going to be an easy (or maybe even a hard) way around it. Have you considered having others use "Aid Another" when you create your disguise?  I'll need to look at the skill again to determine how helpful that will be based on when the check is made.
#5 RogerWilco Apr 30, 2013 18:22:52	All this would do is improve a character's own ability.  The "disguise" he creates would still be completely mundane allowing it to bypass True Seeing even if some kind of magic is used to give him that added knowledge. If your DM wants to screw you over with True Seeing there really isn't going to be an easy (or maybe even a hard) way around it. Have you considered having others use "Aid Another" when you create your disguise?  I'll need to look at the skill again to determine how helpful that will be based on when the check is made.   Aid another might work, your fellow players could spot imperfections in your disguise. It takes 10 minutes to create a disguise anyway, so plenty of time.
#6 draco1119 Apr 30, 2013 21:26:53	Don't changelings and/mongrelfolk get racial bonuses to disguise?
#7 Fireclave Apr 30, 2013 22:12:16	Your best bet is to look for magical items and effects that would increase your Disguise check, rather than grant an illusionary effect. (Extended) Eagle's Splendor and a Cloak of Charisma are obvious solutions.  There's also the often overlooked Circlet of Pursuation, which grants a +3 bonus to charisma-based checks. Unfortunately, most other solutions I could think of don't last long enough.  Though if you can find a way to create a disguise faster, consider the Bard's Inspire Competence, psionic Shards, and the Improvisation spell from the Spell Compendium. Otherwise, there's always the Skill Focus and Deceitful feats.
#8 RogerWilco May 01, 2013 7:14:23	Your best bet is to look for magical items and effects that would increase your Disguise check, rather than grant an illusionary effect. (Extended) Eagle's Splendor and a Cloak of Charisma are obvious solutions.  There's also the often overlooked Circlet of Pursuation, which grants a +3 bonus to charisma-based checks. Unfortunately, most other solutions I could think of don't last long enough.  Though if you can find a way to create a disguise faster, consider the Bard's Inspire Competence, psionic Shards, and the Improvisation spell from the Spell Compendium. Otherwise, there's always the Skill Focus and Deceitful feats. The Circlet of Persuation takes the same body slot as the Hat of Disguise, which makes the Hat preferred unless encountering True Seeing.
#9 Fireclave May 01, 2013 8:23:59	The Circlet of Persuation takes the same body slot as the Hat of Disguise, which makes the Hat preferred unless encountering True Seeing. Obviously.  But you were asking about ways to avoid being foiled by True Seeing, so that's what I gave you.  And you did not restrict your request by item slot, so neither did I. Besides, nothing stops you from having both and using the best one for the situation.  Just keep the other one in your Handy Haversack, where you keep all the rest of the tools of your trade within easy reach.
#10 Syltorian May 01, 2013 12:44:58	There are two feats which might be interesting. Dragon Magazine has Improved Disguise and Player's Guide to Eberron has Perfect Reflection (bonuses to impersonate a specific person). The latter was in the chapter on Changelings, though I can't remember from memory if it actually requires you to be a changeling. The Spymaster Prestige Class (Complete Adventurer) gains good bonuses on disguise for its cover identities. Dragon Magazine had a special assassin prestige class, the Replacement Killer, which is designed to steal the identity of its victims. Some of the paragon classes allow you to permanently increase your Charisma, as does a Tome of Leadership and Influence.  Keith Baker's article on the Lords of Dust in Eberron presented a spell, named Cloak of Khyber (reprinted in Dragons of Eberron), which negates True Seeing, but has the downside that the magic disguise needs to be in place for some time (24 hours, from memory), so this does not work for a short-duration spell, but it's quite good if you are a shapeshifter.
#11 RogerWilco May 01, 2013 15:39:29	The Circlet of Persuation takes the same body slot as the Hat of Disguise, which makes the Hat preferred unless encountering True Seeing. Obviously.  But you were asking about ways to avoid being foiled by True Seeing, so that's what I gave you.  And you did not restrict your request by item slot, so neither did I. Besides, nothing stops you from having both and using the best one for the situation.  Just keep the other one in your Handy Haversack, where you keep all the rest of the tools of your trade within easy reach. Yeah, sorry. I was interrupted and the post ended up a bit terse. All of them are good suggestions, thank you. There are two feats which might be interesting. Dragon Magazine has Improved Disguise and Player's Guide to Eberron has Perfect Reflection (bonuses to impersonate a specific person). The latter was in the chapter on Changelings, though I can't remember from memory if it actually requires you to be a changeling. The Spymaster Prestige Class (Complete Adventurer) gains good bonuses on disguise for its cover identities. Dragon Magazine had a special assassin prestige class, the Replacement Killer, which is designed to steal the identity of its victims. Some of the paragon classes allow you to permanently increase your Charisma, as does a Tome of Leadership and Influence.  Keith Baker's article on the Lords of Dust in Eberron presented a spell, named Cloak of Khyber (reprinted in Dragons of Eberron), which negates True Seeing, but has the downside that the magic disguise needs to be in place for some time (24 hours, from memory), so this does not work for a short-duration spell, but it's quite good if you are a shapeshifter.  More good suggestions, thanks. It's 6 hours.
#12 awaken_D_M_golem May 02, 2013 16:39:48	Here's a fairly extensive spell list, with other things too: www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=379...
#13 RogerWilco May 03, 2013 3:00:47	Here's a fairly extensive spell list, with other things too: www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=379... Bookmarked it. I'm not a spellcaster though, so for my current character that list has limited use, some can be cast by party members though. It looks like the trick to being a good skillmonkey is to be a good spellcaster.
#14 Fireclave May 04, 2013 22:27:10	Here's a fairly extensive spell list, with other things too: www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=379... Bookmarked it. I'm not a spellcaster though That's what scrolls, wands, staves, and ranks in UMD are for.  And if UMD is not a class skill, you can always add it. It looks like the trick to being a good skillmonkey is to be a good spellcaster. Or having a spellcasting sidekick.  But having a DM allow that feat is a long shot.
#15 RogerWilco May 06, 2013 5:02:21	Here's a fairly extensive spell list, with other things too: www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=379... Bookmarked it. I'm not a spellcaster though That's what scrolls, wands, staves, and ranks in UMD are for. UMD is a crutch at best. Why pay for things that a spellcaster gets for free? UMD is fine for the occassional use, but to support a core character concept (which is what I'm looking for here), the costs would quickly become prohibitive. And if UMD is not a class skill, you can always add it. Yeah, we don't allow that, but we have a houserule that's maybe even better: We allow that if you select one of the +2/+2 to skills feats, these also become class skills. It looks like the trick to being a good skillmonkey is to be a good spellcaster. Or having a spellcasting sidekick.  But having a DM allow that feat is a long shot. Leadership is out in our group. Thanks for the suggestions anyway, I'm looking for what options there are in the game, so any suggestions are welcome.
#16 Syltorian May 07, 2013 13:59:27	Found another feat whilst browsing Dungeon 127 (p.49, Hall of Harsh Reflections adventure by J. Bulmahn). It's called Haunting Similarity, and gives you a bonus to impersonate a specific creature as well as rendering that creature shaken if it has to fight you whilst you are wearing its face. The bonus is unnamed, so should stack with similar feats (at your DM's discretion), though otherwise it's not that useful if your aim is to maximise disguise.
#17 alsebra May 09, 2013 16:59:52	Yeah, we don't allow that, but we have a houserule that's maybe even better: We allow that if you select one of the +2/+2 to skills feats, these also become class skills. Burning a feat to possibly get two class skills?  I don't know...seems kinda useless (just not as useless as those feats on their own).
#18 RogerWilco May 09, 2013 18:46:58	Yeah, we don't allow that, but we have a houserule that's maybe even better: We allow that if you select one of the +2/+2 to skills feats, these also become class skills. Burning a feat to possibly get two class skills?  I don't know...seems kinda useless (just not as useless as those feats on their own). If you ask me, I would do away with class skills completely. This was sort of a compromise at our group to make these feats at least somewhat useful, the +2/+2 alone is really never worth a feat, getting two new class skills might be for some character concepts or PrC requirements.
#19 draco1119 May 09, 2013 19:20:28	I really like the way Pathfinder did skills; every skill rank costs one point, period. If it's a class skill, you get a +3 bonus to it.
#20 vortsukoto May 09, 2013 23:34:26	I really like the way Pathfinder did skills; every skill rank costs one point, period. If it's a class skill, you get a +3 bonus to it. That in itself wasn't enough. They also axed lots of magic items (and synergy bonuses) that could be used to lever up skill checks on characters without any skill ranks. It made your actual skill bonus a lot more important when you couldn't just drop gold to receive massive bonuses to any and all skills. That itself makes things like +2 or +3 bonuses relevant when totaling skill bonuses.
#21 draco1119 May 10, 2013 0:03:42	Meh. I like synergy bonuses. The +10 competence bonus (and even more!) items I agree with dropping, but I like the nickel & dime +2s you can get from synergy & masterwork items. *shrug*