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Identifying spells with spellcraft

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
bomaz
Jul 28, 2009 10:11:23 My group had a discussion concerning what spells you can identify with spellcraft. The following questions stood out.

1. Can you identify a spell without components (assuming the spell has no visual effect)

2. if no: Can you identify a spell-like ability being cast?
Example: a monster disappears, any way to see if it used teleport, invisibility or dimension door.

3. Can you identify psionics being cast when the display is supressed?

4. Can people see that you cast a spell if the spell has no components?

5. is there any mechanic for hiding that you cast spells at all?
#2
pithica
Jul 28, 2009 12:38:13 http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm

Based on that.

1. No, the 'Identify spell being Cast' portion says you must see or hear the V/S components. And The Identify spell in place, says you must 'see the effect' of the spell.

2. You can identify spell like abilities. The initial check description says you can use it to identify spells or magic effects, and one of the checks is 'understand a strange or unique magical effect', which is what I use to identify spell likes as a DM, unless it has visual effects, then I use the identify a spell in place DC.

3. Only if it meets the above requirements AND you are playing with full magic/psionic transparency. AFAIK.

4. Potentially. You still draw AOO's casting a spell, so there must be some indicator you are doing something. Though, it may just be that you look constipated for a moment, and not something someone who isn't trying to stab you would notice (assuming there are no V/S/M components).

5. There's a skill trick in Complete Scoundrel that lets you use sleight of hand to hide S/M components, IIRC.
#3
eviltedzies
Jul 28, 2009 12:45:47 1.By Raw you cannot Spellcraft a spell which you cannot see or hear. However you can identify a spell that you can see one or both of the components.

Ex: If I still spell a fireball you can still Spellcraft it due to my verbal component. If I silent spell it, you can Spellcraft it due to my somatic components. Now if I still and silence spell a fireball by the RAW, there is no way to identify it with Spellcraft.

2. I'm not as sure on this one, but I'd honestly say that yes you can, so long as you can see or hear the creature using the SLA. I'd get a better opinion on this one though.

3. In the Psionics Handbook on page 55 it talks about Magic-Psionic Transparency. Long story short. Any magic that could potentially effect Psionics can and vice versa. Psionics use Psicraft instead of Spellcraft. Thus, you would need to use Psicraft to identify a Psionic effect, NOT spellcraft.

4. Most spells that don't have a component have either verbal or somatic components. If by some chance the spell has ONLY material components and you use eschew materials or some other effect that negates the need to use the material then technically a watcher would NOT be able to use spellcraft to identify the spell.

5. There are a few legal tricks here and there that allow you to hide your spellcasting. There are a lot of non-book methods that usually end up subject to your DM.

An example: If I wear a big big overcoat and wear a mask that muffles or quiets my voice so its harder to hear, my DM might let me make a Sleight of Hand check to cast a spell without notice. Since my hands are moving inside the cloak and noone can see my mouth moving or hear my words.... I might be able to cast a spell without anyone being the wiser.

I hope some of this helps. I'm not the best person to give book smart advice but I'm sure theres some more helpful people on the site who could expand on what I've said or point out something I've missed.
#4
bomaz
Jul 28, 2009 14:24:44 So in short:

1. You can't identify a spell if you can't see the components or the effects.

2. A spell-like doesn't have components so you can only identify it from its effect

3. not if you can't see its effect and display, but otherwise. We play with magic/psi transparency

4. they might be able to see that you cast a spell, and they might not. However at the very least they have no chance to id the spell.

5. the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick
#5
bigtony
Jul 28, 2009 14:28:03 It should be noted that Battlemagic Perception (Heros of Battle) largely solves these problems. Allowing you to identify both spells and spell-like abilties, so long as you have line of effect. The duration is long and it even gives you a handy bonus to the check.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bomaz Jul 28, 2009 10:11:23	My group had a discussion concerning what spells you can identify with spellcraft. The following questions stood out. 1. Can you identify a spell without components (assuming the spell has no visual effect) 2. if no: Can you identify a spell-like ability being cast? Example: a monster disappears, any way to see if it used teleport, invisibility or dimension door. 3. Can you identify psionics being cast when the display is supressed? 4. Can people see that you cast a spell if the spell has no components? 5. is there any mechanic for hiding that you cast spells at all?
#2 pithica Jul 28, 2009 12:38:13	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm Based on that. 1. No, the 'Identify spell being Cast' portion says you must see or hear the V/S components. And The Identify spell in place, says you must 'see the effect' of the spell. 2. You can identify spell like abilities. The initial check description says you can use it to identify spells or magic effects, and one of the checks is 'understand a strange or unique magical effect', which is what I use to identify spell likes as a DM, unless it has visual effects, then I use the identify a spell in place DC. 3. Only if it meets the above requirements AND you are playing with full magic/psionic transparency. AFAIK. 4. Potentially. You still draw AOO's casting a spell, so there must be some indicator you are doing something. Though, it may just be that you look constipated for a moment, and not something someone who isn't trying to stab you would notice (assuming there are no V/S/M components). 5. There's a skill trick in Complete Scoundrel that lets you use sleight of hand to hide S/M components, IIRC.
#3 eviltedzies Jul 28, 2009 12:45:47	1.By Raw you cannot Spellcraft a spell which you cannot see or hear. However you can identify a spell that you can see one or both of the components. Ex: If I still spell a fireball you can still Spellcraft it due to my verbal component. If I silent spell it, you can Spellcraft it due to my somatic components. Now if I still and silence spell a fireball by the RAW, there is no way to identify it with Spellcraft. 2. I'm not as sure on this one, but I'd honestly say that yes you can, so long as you can see or hear the creature using the SLA. I'd get a better opinion on this one though. 3. In the Psionics Handbook on page 55 it talks about Magic-Psionic Transparency. Long story short. Any magic that could potentially effect Psionics can and vice versa. Psionics use Psicraft instead of Spellcraft. Thus, you would need to use Psicraft to identify a Psionic effect, NOT spellcraft. 4. Most spells that don't have a component have either verbal or somatic components. If by some chance the spell has ONLY material components and you use eschew materials or some other effect that negates the need to use the material then technically a watcher would NOT be able to use spellcraft to identify the spell. 5. There are a few legal tricks here and there that allow you to hide your spellcasting. There are a lot of non-book methods that usually end up subject to your DM. An example: If I wear a big big overcoat and wear a mask that muffles or quiets my voice so its harder to hear, my DM might let me make a Sleight of Hand check to cast a spell without notice. Since my hands are moving inside the cloak and noone can see my mouth moving or hear my words.... I might be able to cast a spell without anyone being the wiser. I hope some of this helps. I'm not the best person to give book smart advice but I'm sure theres some more helpful people on the site who could expand on what I've said or point out something I've missed.
#4 bomaz Jul 28, 2009 14:24:44	So in short: 1. You can't identify a spell if you can't see the components or the effects. 2. A spell-like doesn't have components so you can only identify it from its effect 3. not if you can't see its effect and display, but otherwise. We play with magic/psi transparency 4. they might be able to see that you cast a spell, and they might not. However at the very least they have no chance to id the spell. 5. the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick
#5 bigtony Jul 28, 2009 14:28:03	It should be noted that Battlemagic Perception (Heros of Battle) largely solves these problems. Allowing you to identify both spells and spell-like abilties, so long as you have line of effect. The duration is long and it even gives you a handy bonus to the check.