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ignore force effects?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
aceon
Jun 01, 2009 15:18:45 Starting new game this week at high levels. Could easily go epic.

I thought I recently saw a weapon, spell or some other ability to ignore force effects of things like:

Mage Armor, Bracers of Armor, deflection bonuses and that sort of thing.

Since at epic levels I believe more characters tend to have this kind of armor, a way to bypass it would surely make Power Attack more beneficial. (ie. easier to hit)

Question: Does anyone know what this magic weapon, item, spell power or whatever it is that can bypass force effects?
#2
phaedrusxy
Jun 01, 2009 15:39:21 Shapechanging into a Force Dragon works. At 9th level, the Void Incarnate can do this too.
#3
SwordDisciple
Jun 01, 2009 16:44:41 Not exactly ignoring.. But the Spell Thunderlance (MiC) has a chance to dispell 3rd level or lower force effects if it hits it's target.
#4
aceon
Jun 01, 2009 17:57:03 Yup, Void Incarnate rocks! All the abilities are (ex).

I don't think I will be able to qualify for that though.

Where is Force Dragon located?

Thunderlance is good too, and I have easy access to that now. But once we reach epic it might not be so great anymore. ie. epic mage armor is > 3rd level spell. ( only dispells 3rd level force effects )

For that matter wouldn't bracers of armor be a 1st level force effect? Since mage armor is the relevant item creation spell?
#5
Balthanon
Jun 01, 2009 18:03:17
Where is Force Dragon located?

Thunderlance is good too, and I have easy access to that now. But once we reach epic it might not be so great anymore. ie. epic mage armor is > 3rd level spell. ( only dispells 3rd level force effects )

Epic Level Handbook-- it's one of the monsters.

Epic Thunderlance would be > 3rd level spells too. ;) If your enemy is going to be developing epic spells, you might as well do the same.
#6
CantripN
Jun 02, 2009 6:24:53 Of course, there's Forceward (SpC), which simply acts as an AMF for [Force] in it's area. Useful, no?
#7
aceon
Jun 02, 2009 12:14:16 Ah, CantripN, you are like unto a god! ...or maybe you just made a way for me to do so! :P

me: So, I attack with rapier of puncturing / emerald nightmare blade / wraithstrike (or some other means of touch attack) ...

bad guy: ah, but I have bracers of Armor/mage armor/deflection bonus +20

me: no you don't :D
#8
Balthanon
Jun 02, 2009 13:42:40 I believe Epic spells ignore Antimagic effects if those spells are a concern, so that likely would include Forceward.
#9
CantripN
Jun 02, 2009 13:50:17
I believe Epic spells ignore Antimagic effects if those spells are a concern, so that likely would include Forceward.

Well, as written, it's not an AMF, just works in a similar way (it doesn't even refer to it in any way). In the case of Fireward, you'd be right, but that's not the case here.

Plus, they don't ignore them, per-se:
"Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally."

That means that an AMF with a CL of 30 always wins anyway.
#10
Balthanon
Jun 02, 2009 14:02:43
That means that an AMF with a CL of 30 always wins anyway.

I think it's the AMF making the dispel check of 1d20+20-- so the caster level on the AMF doesn't matter, just the caster level of the epic spell. You would need to have a caster level of 30 to completely ignore AMF.

For the forceward, it probably depends on how liberally the DM interprets the rules-- i.e. the antimagic field rule was basically to say you couldn't take a low level effect and completely negate epic spells. If it doesn't directly reference AMF though, you're in better shape if the DM expand upon the spirit of the rules.
#11
CantripN
Jun 02, 2009 14:05:20
I think it's the AMF making the dispel check of 1d20+20-- so the caster level on the AMF doesn't matter, just the caster level of the epic spell. You would need to have a caster level of 30 to completely ignore AMF.

Yeah, it seems you're right. :P I'm not sure why I got it backwards.
#12
suzerain
Jun 02, 2009 14:55:51
bad guy: ah, but I have bracers of Armor/mage armor/deflection bonus +20

me: no you don't :D

Uh, I may be wrong, but I don't think you'll automatically ignore deflection boni. At least I never saw spells that grant those as [force] spells, much less items.
#13
aceon
Jun 02, 2009 18:09:06
Uh, I may be wrong, but I don't think you'll automatically ignore deflection boni.

Uh, I may be wrong, but not to nitpick or anything, but I believe "boni" is the latin plural form of "boner" :P

Anyway, I thougth deflection bonuses were force effects and thus subject to both Thunderlance and Forceward? Am I incorrect?
#14
Balthanon
Jun 02, 2009 19:44:23 Deflection bonuses aren't automatically force effects-- only if the spell has the [Force] tag is it a force effect. (Or in the case of an item, if the spell used to make the item is a force effect typically or it is mentioned explicitly.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 aceon Jun 01, 2009 15:18:45	Starting new game this week at high levels. Could easily go epic. I thought I recently saw a weapon, spell or some other ability to ignore force effects of things like: Mage Armor, Bracers of Armor, deflection bonuses and that sort of thing. Since at epic levels I believe more characters tend to have this kind of armor, a way to bypass it would surely make Power Attack more beneficial. (ie. easier to hit) Question: Does anyone know what this magic weapon, item, spell power or whatever it is that can bypass force effects?
#2 phaedrusxy Jun 01, 2009 15:39:21	Shapechanging into a Force Dragon works. At 9th level, the Void Incarnate can do this too.
#3 SwordDisciple Jun 01, 2009 16:44:41	Not exactly ignoring.. But the Spell Thunderlance (MiC) has a chance to dispell 3rd level or lower force effects if it hits it's target.
#4 aceon Jun 01, 2009 17:57:03	Yup, Void Incarnate rocks! All the abilities are (ex). I don't think I will be able to qualify for that though. Where is Force Dragon located? Thunderlance is good too, and I have easy access to that now. But once we reach epic it might not be so great anymore. ie. epic mage armor is > 3rd level spell. ( only dispells 3rd level force effects ) For that matter wouldn't bracers of armor be a 1st level force effect? Since mage armor is the relevant item creation spell?
#5 Balthanon Jun 01, 2009 18:03:17	Where is Force Dragon located? Thunderlance is good too, and I have easy access to that now. But once we reach epic it might not be so great anymore. ie. epic mage armor is > 3rd level spell. ( only dispells 3rd level force effects ) Epic Level Handbook-- it's one of the monsters. Epic Thunderlance would be > 3rd level spells too. ;) If your enemy is going to be developing epic spells, you might as well do the same.
#6 CantripN Jun 02, 2009 6:24:53	Of course, there's Forceward (SpC), which simply acts as an AMF for [Force] in it's area. Useful, no?
#7 aceon Jun 02, 2009 12:14:16	Ah, CantripN, you are like unto a god! ...or maybe you just made a way for me to do so! :P me: So, I attack with rapier of puncturing / emerald nightmare blade / wraithstrike (or some other means of touch attack) ... bad guy: ah, but I have bracers of Armor/mage armor/deflection bonus +20 me: no you don't :D
#8 Balthanon Jun 02, 2009 13:42:40	I believe Epic spells ignore Antimagic effects if those spells are a concern, so that likely would include Forceward.
#9 CantripN Jun 02, 2009 13:50:17	I believe Epic spells ignore Antimagic effects if those spells are a concern, so that likely would include Forceward. Well, as written, it's not an AMF, just works in a similar way (it doesn't even refer to it in any way). In the case of Fireward, you'd be right, but that's not the case here. Plus, they don't ignore them, per-se: "Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally." That means that an AMF with a CL of 30 always wins anyway.
#10 Balthanon Jun 02, 2009 14:02:43	That means that an AMF with a CL of 30 always wins anyway. I think it's the AMF making the dispel check of 1d20+20-- so the caster level on the AMF doesn't matter, just the caster level of the epic spell. You would need to have a caster level of 30 to completely ignore AMF. For the forceward, it probably depends on how liberally the DM interprets the rules-- i.e. the antimagic field rule was basically to say you couldn't take a low level effect and completely negate epic spells. If it doesn't directly reference AMF though, you're in better shape if the DM expand upon the spirit of the rules.
#11 CantripN Jun 02, 2009 14:05:20	I think it's the AMF making the dispel check of 1d20+20-- so the caster level on the AMF doesn't matter, just the caster level of the epic spell. You would need to have a caster level of 30 to completely ignore AMF. Yeah, it seems you're right. :P I'm not sure why I got it backwards.
#12 suzerain Jun 02, 2009 14:55:51	bad guy: ah, but I have bracers of Armor/mage armor/deflection bonus +20 me: no you don't :D Uh, I may be wrong, but I don't think you'll automatically ignore deflection boni. At least I never saw spells that grant those as [force] spells, much less items.
#13 aceon Jun 02, 2009 18:09:06	Uh, I may be wrong, but I don't think you'll automatically ignore deflection boni. Uh, I may be wrong, but not to nitpick or anything, but I believe *"boni"* is the latin plural form of *"boner"* :P Anyway, I thougth deflection bonuses were force effects and thus subject to both Thunderlance and Forceward? Am I incorrect?
#14 Balthanon Jun 02, 2009 19:44:23	Deflection bonuses aren't automatically force effects-- only if the spell has the [Force] tag is it a force effect. (Or in the case of an item, if the spell used to make the item is a force effect typically or it is mentioned explicitly.)