illusionist / jade phoenix mage -- viable? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

illusionist / jade phoenix mage -- viable?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
divisionbyzer0
Mar 13, 2009 3:08:29 So, I was DMing a dark sun game for a bit, but someone else wanted to try his hand at DMing and I passed the ball to him, now I need a character.

The party is a group of travelling entertainers and for some reason all the players are averse to combat thikning that high combat games are like video games, but I know they will need some sort of combatant other than an archer ranger at some point so I thought of doing a warblade. I debunked the fallacy of my friends that combat characters cant have a noncombat role by simply showing that the warblade 4 skill points per level could make him a "acrobat" in an entertaining type of group by maxing balance, jump, tumble, climb, but then I thought hmm, what would I want to do with this character later, and I've also considered doing an illusionist instead of a warblade just for fun, but then I thought combining the two for eventually a jade phoenix mage could be interesting.

How viable do you guys think warblade / illusionist into eventually a jade phoenix mage would be? Would it be better to do swordsage / illusionist? I think flavor wise the SS disciplines harmonize better with illusion school of magic but I do not like (medium + bad BAB) and (d4 + d8) hp for a few levels before id go into the JP mage. Thoughts? I've considered also using the ultimate deceiverin place of the illusionist, but the deceiver looks like a class youd want to carry out for more levels because it actually gets class abilities, and the casting is nerfed for the class abilties which probably hurts the JPM later on.

I don't even have the skeleton for such a character but thought that it could be an interesting one to play.

I'd be starting at second level, probably human or maybe some other athasianrace -- haven't decided yet.

Ideas or insight would be helpful, as the TOB is still fairly new to me, I've never done a Jade Phoenix mage or an arcane caster in 3.5 (excluding sword of the arcane order ranger :P), and I need this character by saturday evening. Thanks :D
#2
mister_crowley
Mar 13, 2009 4:39:20
So, I was DMing a dark sun game for a bit, but someone else wanted to try his hand at DMing and I passed the ball to him, now I need a character.

The party is a group of travelling entertainers and for some reason all the players are averse to combat thikning that high combat games are like video games, but I know they will need some sort of combatant other than an archer ranger at some point so I thought of doing a warblade. I debunked the fallacy of my friends that combat characters cant have a noncombat role by simply showing that the warblade 4 skill points per level could make him a "acrobat" in an entertaining type of group by maxing balance, jump, tumble, climb, but then I thought hmm, what would I want to do with this character later, and I've also considered doing an illusionist instead of a warblade just for fun, but then I thought combining the two for eventually a jade phoenix mage could be interesting.

How viable do you guys think warblade / illusionist into eventually a jade phoenix mage would be? Would it be better to do swordsage / illusionist? I think flavor wise the SS disciplines harmonize better with illusion school of magic but I do not like (medium + bad BAB) and (d4 + d8) hp for a few levels before id go into the JP mage. Thoughts? I've considered also using the ultimate deceiverin place of the illusionist, but the deceiver looks like a class youd want to carry out for more levels because it actually gets class abilities, and the casting is nerfed for the class abilties which probably hurts the JPM later on.

I don't even have the skeleton for such a character but thought that it could be an interesting one to play.

I'd be starting at second level, probably human or maybe some other athasianrace -- haven't decided yet.

Ideas or insight would be helpful, as the TOB is still fairly new to me, I've never done a Jade Phoenix mage or an arcane caster in 3.5 (excluding sword of the arcane order ranger :P), and I need this character by saturday evening. Thanks :D

if you're going to make a caster my advice would be to ditch Tome of Battle entirley and make a real mage like a Sorcerer/Wizard into an Incantrix or something along those lines. ToB is cute and has nice abilities but they're not very powerful or actually fun in terms of game play.
#3
pithica
Mar 13, 2009 8:48:41 If you're really wanting to stick with Jade Pheonix mage, I'd start here:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=887398

I'd probably go SS rather than WB in your stated build, personally, but I can't say for sure that's optimal (I've only played a couple ToB characters, myself.)

Medium and Poor BAB class mixes aren't as bad as your thinking. Even straight up poor BAB class mixes aren't going to hurt you, you just have to play like a wizard and not like a fighter.

I totally disagree about ToB characters not being powerful or fun. YMMV based on how you play and your group, of course, but I can say first hand that I have enjoyed them, and seen several friends enjoy them, and that they can be quite potent at various levels.
#4
toryn
Mar 13, 2009 13:01:25 I would go with beguiler over illusionist. Similar theme, and you can cast in light armor as well as having a lot of spells per day. You have less versatility, but you get access to haste and other goodies (but no damaging spells), plus a better skill set and better hit points. Swordsage meshes well with illusionist or beguiler, but JPM only progresses Desert Wind. Many people I know go with crusader as their martial initator because JPM progresses Devoted Spirit. Imo, the crusader is better than swordsage because of his recovery mechanic. The swordsage's recovery mechanic is the worst of the 3 from what I have gathered, but it has access to cooler schools (Shadow Hand is one of my faves).

The last character I made was Dread Necromancer 5/ Crusader 1/ JPM 2. It had rebuking, 3rd level necromancer spells, could heal himself (Tomb Tainted Soul), as well as the feat from Comp. Champion that lets you sac turn attempts to regain spells. I would sac spells to arcane wrath, then sac turn attempts to regain those spells to sac again. It allowed me to have more versatility because my spell list was so limited. The link that was provided by pithica has a lot of builds that show some of the power behind those builds. Also, there is a JPM handbook somewhere on these boards that is a good read. Hope this helps.
#5
keithio
Mar 13, 2009 13:25:09 For a build skeleton I recommend:

Crusader1/MartialIllusionist5/JadePhoenixMage10/AbjurantChampion4
Power attack, arcanestrike greatsword
17 BAB, 17wizard casting (9ths)

Or:

Beguiler3/SwordSage2/UnseenSeer2/JadePhoenixMage10/UnseenSeer2/Beguiler1
TWF sneak attack Shadow Blade shortswords
16 BAB, 16 beguiler casting (8ths)

While a JPM illusionist isn't optimal, I think you'd do well enough with either of those two builds. Swordsage is more lucrative than crusader for a Beguiler for the 2nd level wis mod to AC ability. Of course, if greater luminous armor is allowed, then I always go Abjurant Champion wizard.
#6
divisionbyzer0
Mar 13, 2009 18:12:18 Thanks for the comments and advice, and I will try to respond to them in due time, but this one stands out:

I would go with beguiler over illusionist.

I have thought of this, however in the http://www.athas.org version of darksun there is no sorcerer and I presume spontaneous casting would be banned outright. It would require lots of haggling with DM which I don't want to do especially given that I myself did not allow spontaneous arcane casting when I ran the game. The sorcerer kings are all prepared casting wizard / defilers, and spontaneous caster would be hunted down even more so than vanilla preservers and defilers just because it would be an arcane power source the kings themselves don't have or didn't cultivate and it would be seen as a threat. Similarly bards do not have magic in this version of the setting; I am guessing because spontaneous casting is seen to not fit into the logical structure of the campaign setting.

Re: the ToB being fun / not fun and playing straight wizard / arcanist. I have played stuff from the ToB, and I find it to be a fun and versatile book. I guess this is a personal preference matter. We could dipute the points of which is more powerful, but right now I'm not soley concerned with power as much as trying this character idea out. And we already have a player who is doing a full on arcane caster who is not a specialist, which is why I thought it would be interesting to do something with a specialist such as an illusionist. Also, illusions are highly useful in Dark Sun where the general populace despises arcanists in general and would not be averse to lynching those who cast arcane spells in the open without disguise of some sort.

I could drop the ToB and do more pure arcane casting, but I think the illusionist or something like it would be my criterion of the component of the character that is the manditory one.
#7
divisionbyzer0
Mar 14, 2009 18:10:52
For a build skeleton I recommend:

Crusader1/MartialIllusionist5/JadePhoenixMage10/AbjurantChampion4
Power attack, arcanestrike greatsword
17 BAB, 17wizard casting (9ths)

Or:

Beguiler3/SwordSage2/UnseenSeer2/JadePhoenixMage10/UnseenSeer2/Beguiler1
TWF sneak attack Shadow Blade shortswords
16 BAB, 16 beguiler casting (8ths)

While a JPM illusionist isn't optimal, I think you'd do well enough with either of those two builds. Swordsage is more lucrative than crusader for a Beguiler for the 2nd level wis mod to AC ability. Of course, if greater luminous armor is allowed, then I always go Abjurant Champion wizard.

Where do I find unseen seer and martial illusionist??

EDIT: found the seer.
#8
divisionbyzer0
Mar 14, 2009 18:21:05
I would go with beguiler over illusionist. Similar theme, and you can cast in light armor as well as having a lot of spells per day. You have less versatility, but you get access to haste and other goodies (but no damaging spells), plus a better skill set and better hit points.

One of the reasons I liked the Ultimate Deciever is that you can simply add your INT to AC.

Swordsage meshes well with illusionist or beguiler, but JPM only progresses Desert Wind. Many people I know go with crusader as their martial initator because JPM progresses Devoted Spirit. Imo, the crusader is better than swordsage because of his recovery mechanic.

Ouch. I just noticed this. Maybe I could persuade him to let it advance shadow hand, and desert wind, since such a prc would again be a threat to the kings, and stealth would be valuable for their survival.

The swordsage's recovery mechanic is the worst of the 3 from what I have gathered, but it has access to cooler schools (Shadow Hand is one of my faves).

What is it full round for one manuever?

What do you guys think for stats for this kind of character? I'd usually dump wisdom but sword sage gets some wisdom benefits.

INT > CON > ? > ? > ? > ?
#9
keithio
Mar 14, 2009 19:38:10
Where do I find unseen seer and martial illusionist??

EDIT: found the seer.

Sorry for not mentioning it.

By Martial Illusionist I just mean a Wizard specializing in Illusion taking the "Martial Wizard" variant from Unearthed Arcana.

As far as stats go, it depends on whether or not you're TWFing. Swordsage is a good TWFer thanks to the "Shadow Blade" feat. I still think you're better off wielding a 2hander, though.

For TWF: Dex > Int > Con > Wis > Str > Cha
Otherwise: Int > Str > Con > Dex > Wis > Cha
#10
divisionbyzer0
Mar 15, 2009 5:22:16
Sorry for not mentioning it.

By Martial Illusionist I just mean a Wizard specializing in Illusion taking the "Martial Wizard" variant from Unearthed Arcana.

As far as stats go, it depends on whether or not you're TWFing. Swordsage is a good TWFer thanks to the "Shadow Blade" feat. I still think you're better off wielding a 2hander, though.

For TWF: Dex > Int > Con > Wis > Str > Cha
Otherwise: Int > Str > Con > Dex > Wis > Cha

For the record he is allowing beguiler. I have made my character as a level 1 beguiler / level 1 swordsage. He let me keep the stats open ended because this was more or less a roleplaying session in which two characters (new) got introduced to the already well established party and myt character was not finished and i couldnt stall my entrance any longer. I used the skills from my last character I made for the game last week but didn't use. I presume they will be similar once I allocate everything since i was using the ultimate deciever (stealth and social subterfuge). Didn't take a feat yet. All scores are above average save for an 11.

You prefer two hander for the usual reasons I presume? It's simply a more easily optimized combat style unless going with things like ranger, or bloodclaw master (or whatever that prc in tob is), or revenant blade? My last swordsage I did a keen falchion two hander.

One other problem I see with the JPM while its got sweet BAB, spells, and maneuvers, it is not flavored along the lines of either a beguiler or swordsage in terms of skills in my opinion. It's farily paladiny seeming to me in broad concept. I wonder if he'd let me swap devoted spirit for shadow hand, and modify the skills list a bit and change the fluff information to make it dark sun specific. All mages for example in dark sun get bluff which is needed to conceal spellcastin from onlookers. I could see a more specialized wizard which is part of an ancient order to need some social or stealth skills to keep themselves from being hunted down and slaughtered, if they are ever to operate in city-states in this hostile to arcane magic in general setting.

Anyhow thanks for the tips. I have some more reading to do now.
#11
divisionbyzer0
Mar 16, 2009 20:25:13 scores 14 15 15 15 18 11... race elf

after modifications -- works good for TWF or TH don't it?

Str 15
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 18
Wis 15
Cha 11
#12
keithio
Mar 17, 2009 8:01:30 Sweet stats, you should be golden!
#13
divisionbyzer0
Mar 18, 2009 17:02:00
Sweet stats, you should be golden!

Any suggestions on feats aside from power attack? Flaws are allowed.
#14
eldritch_lord
Mar 18, 2009 19:25:14 Extra Readied Maneuver is nice (lets you ready another of your many maneuvers) and Adaptive Style lets you refresh all of your maneuvers with a single full-round action, which is almost required. Other than that, you can pretty much go wild; that's a solid enough build without needing any specific feats.
#15
divisionbyzer0
Mar 19, 2009 7:11:36 Ah. Adaptive Style. Good call. Thanks.
#16
divisionbyzer0
Mar 19, 2009 18:45:36
Extra Readied Maneuver is nice (lets you ready another of your many maneuvers) and Adaptive Style lets you refresh all of your maneuvers with a single full-round action, which is almost required. Other than that, you can pretty much go wild; that's a solid enough build without needing any specific feats.

Hmm, on second thought Adaptive Style only does this with the crusader class does it not? For other adepts it simply lets you change your readied maneuvers as a full round action I think...
#17
eldritch_lord
Mar 19, 2009 22:21:19
Hmm, on second thought Adaptive Style only does this with the crusader class does it not? For other adepts it simply lets you change your readied maneuvers as a full round action I think...

The feat specifies that you "change your readied maneuvers" with a full-round action, then goes on to say that you normally "change maneuvers only by spending 5 minutes to do so." Since spending 5 minutes not only changes but recovers your maneuvers, so does this feat; you can search for some Swordsage guide threads for a more thorough explanation if you want. The crusader thing just says that you re-choose granted maneuvers randomly, so you couldn't use it to refresh your maneuvers and choose which are granted.
#18
divisionbyzer0
Mar 20, 2009 18:48:58
The feat specifies that you "change your readied maneuvers" with a full-round action, then goes on to say that you normally "change maneuvers only by spending 5 minutes to do so." Since spending 5 minutes not only changes but recovers your maneuvers, so does this feat; you can search for some Swordsage guide threads for a more thorough explanation if you want. The crusader thing just says that you re-choose granted maneuvers randomly, so you couldn't use it to refresh your maneuvers and choose which are granted.

Aha. Thanks for the clarifications. I'll look in the guides for more.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 divisionbyzer0 Mar 13, 2009 3:08:29	So, I was DMing a dark sun game for a bit, but someone else wanted to try his hand at DMing and I passed the ball to him, now I need a character. The party is a group of travelling entertainers and for some reason all the players are averse to combat thikning that high combat games are like video games, but I know they will need some sort of combatant other than an archer ranger at some point so I thought of doing a warblade. I debunked the fallacy of my friends that combat characters cant have a noncombat role by simply showing that the warblade 4 skill points per level could make him a "acrobat" in an entertaining type of group by maxing balance, jump, tumble, climb, but then I thought hmm, what would I want to do with this character later, and I've also considered doing an illusionist instead of a warblade just for fun, but then I thought combining the two for eventually a jade phoenix mage could be interesting. How viable do you guys think warblade / illusionist into eventually a jade phoenix mage would be? Would it be better to do swordsage / illusionist? I think flavor wise the SS disciplines harmonize better with illusion school of magic but I do not like (medium + bad BAB) and (d4 + d8) hp for a few levels before id go into the JP mage. Thoughts? I've considered also using the ultimate deceiverin place of the illusionist, but the deceiver looks like a class youd want to carry out for more levels because it actually gets class abilities, and the casting is nerfed for the class abilties which probably hurts the JPM later on. I don't even have the skeleton for such a character but thought that it could be an interesting one to play. I'd be starting at second level, probably human or maybe some other athasianrace -- haven't decided yet. Ideas or insight would be helpful, as the TOB is still fairly new to me, I've never done a Jade Phoenix mage or an arcane caster in 3.5 (excluding sword of the arcane order ranger :P), and I need this character by saturday evening. Thanks :D
#2 mister_crowley Mar 13, 2009 4:39:20	So, I was DMing a dark sun game for a bit, but someone else wanted to try his hand at DMing and I passed the ball to him, now I need a character. The party is a group of travelling entertainers and for some reason all the players are averse to combat thikning that high combat games are like video games, but I know they will need some sort of combatant other than an archer ranger at some point so I thought of doing a warblade. I debunked the fallacy of my friends that combat characters cant have a noncombat role by simply showing that the warblade 4 skill points per level could make him a "acrobat" in an entertaining type of group by maxing balance, jump, tumble, climb, but then I thought hmm, what would I want to do with this character later, and I've also considered doing an illusionist instead of a warblade just for fun, but then I thought combining the two for eventually a jade phoenix mage could be interesting. How viable do you guys think warblade / illusionist into eventually a jade phoenix mage would be? Would it be better to do swordsage / illusionist? I think flavor wise the SS disciplines harmonize better with illusion school of magic but I do not like (medium + bad BAB) and (d4 + d8) hp for a few levels before id go into the JP mage. Thoughts? I've considered also using the ultimate deceiverin place of the illusionist, but the deceiver looks like a class youd want to carry out for more levels because it actually gets class abilities, and the casting is nerfed for the class abilties which probably hurts the JPM later on. I don't even have the skeleton for such a character but thought that it could be an interesting one to play. I'd be starting at second level, probably human or maybe some other athasianrace -- haven't decided yet. Ideas or insight would be helpful, as the TOB is still fairly new to me, I've never done a Jade Phoenix mage or an arcane caster in 3.5 (excluding sword of the arcane order ranger :P), and I need this character by saturday evening. Thanks :D if you're going to make a caster my advice would be to ditch Tome of Battle entirley and make a real mage like a Sorcerer/Wizard into an Incantrix or something along those lines. ToB is cute and has nice abilities but they're not very powerful or actually fun in terms of game play.
#3 pithica Mar 13, 2009 8:48:41	If you're really wanting to stick with Jade Pheonix mage, I'd start here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=887398 I'd probably go SS rather than WB in your stated build, personally, but I can't say for sure that's optimal (I've only played a couple ToB characters, myself.) Medium and Poor BAB class mixes aren't as bad as your thinking. Even straight up poor BAB class mixes aren't going to hurt you, you just have to play like a wizard and not like a fighter. I totally disagree about ToB characters not being powerful or fun. YMMV based on how you play and your group, of course, but I can say first hand that I have enjoyed them, and seen several friends enjoy them, and that they can be quite potent at various levels.
#4 toryn Mar 13, 2009 13:01:25	I would go with beguiler over illusionist. Similar theme, and you can cast in light armor as well as having a lot of spells per day. You have less versatility, but you get access to haste and other goodies (but no damaging spells), plus a better skill set and better hit points. Swordsage meshes well with illusionist or beguiler, but JPM only progresses Desert Wind. Many people I know go with crusader as their martial initator because JPM progresses Devoted Spirit. Imo, the crusader is better than swordsage because of his recovery mechanic. The swordsage's recovery mechanic is the worst of the 3 from what I have gathered, but it has access to cooler schools (Shadow Hand is one of my faves). The last character I made was Dread Necromancer 5/ Crusader 1/ JPM 2. It had rebuking, 3rd level necromancer spells, could heal himself (Tomb Tainted Soul), as well as the feat from Comp. Champion that lets you sac turn attempts to regain spells. I would sac spells to arcane wrath, then sac turn attempts to regain those spells to sac again. It allowed me to have more versatility because my spell list was so limited. The link that was provided by pithica has a lot of builds that show some of the power behind those builds. Also, there is a JPM handbook somewhere on these boards that is a good read. Hope this helps.
#5 keithio Mar 13, 2009 13:25:09	For a build skeleton I recommend: Crusader1/MartialIllusionist5/JadePhoenixMage10/AbjurantChampion4 Power attack, arcanestrike greatsword 17 BAB, 17wizard casting (9ths) Or: Beguiler3/SwordSage2/UnseenSeer2/JadePhoenixMage10/UnseenSeer2/Beguiler1 TWF sneak attack Shadow Blade shortswords 16 BAB, 16 beguiler casting (8ths) While a JPM illusionist isn't optimal, I think you'd do well enough with either of those two builds. Swordsage is more lucrative than crusader for a Beguiler for the 2nd level wis mod to AC ability. Of course, if greater luminous armor is allowed, then I always go Abjurant Champion wizard.
#6 divisionbyzer0 Mar 13, 2009 18:12:18	Thanks for the comments and advice, and I will try to respond to them in due time, but this one stands out: I would go with beguiler over illusionist. I have thought of this, however in the http://www.athas.org version of darksun there is no sorcerer and I presume spontaneous casting would be banned outright. It would require lots of haggling with DM which I don't want to do especially given that I myself did not allow spontaneous arcane casting when I ran the game. The sorcerer kings are all prepared casting wizard / defilers, and spontaneous caster would be hunted down even more so than vanilla preservers and defilers just because it would be an arcane power source the kings themselves don't have or didn't cultivate and it would be seen as a threat. Similarly bards do not have magic in this version of the setting; I am guessing because spontaneous casting is seen to not fit into the logical structure of the campaign setting. Re: the ToB being fun / not fun and playing straight wizard / arcanist. I have played stuff from the ToB, and I find it to be a fun and versatile book. I guess this is a personal preference matter. We could dipute the points of which is more powerful, but right now I'm not soley concerned with power as much as trying this character idea out. And we already have a player who is doing a full on arcane caster who is not a specialist, which is why I thought it would be interesting to do something with a specialist such as an illusionist. Also, illusions are highly useful in Dark Sun where the general populace despises arcanists in general and would not be averse to lynching those who cast arcane spells in the open without disguise of some sort. I could drop the ToB and do more pure arcane casting, but I think the illusionist or something like it would be my criterion of the component of the character that is the manditory one.
#7 divisionbyzer0 Mar 14, 2009 18:10:52	For a build skeleton I recommend: Crusader1/MartialIllusionist5/JadePhoenixMage10/AbjurantChampion4 Power attack, arcanestrike greatsword 17 BAB, 17wizard casting (9ths) Or: Beguiler3/SwordSage2/UnseenSeer2/JadePhoenixMage10/UnseenSeer2/Beguiler1 TWF sneak attack Shadow Blade shortswords 16 BAB, 16 beguiler casting (8ths) While a JPM illusionist isn't optimal, I think you'd do well enough with either of those two builds. Swordsage is more lucrative than crusader for a Beguiler for the 2nd level wis mod to AC ability. Of course, if greater luminous armor is allowed, then I always go Abjurant Champion wizard. Where do I find unseen seer and martial illusionist?? EDIT: found the seer.
#8 divisionbyzer0 Mar 14, 2009 18:21:05	I would go with beguiler over illusionist. Similar theme, and you can cast in light armor as well as having a lot of spells per day. You have less versatility, but you get access to haste and other goodies (but no damaging spells), plus a better skill set and better hit points. One of the reasons I liked the Ultimate Deciever is that you can simply add your INT to AC. Swordsage meshes well with illusionist or beguiler, but JPM only progresses Desert Wind. Many people I know go with crusader as their martial initator because JPM progresses Devoted Spirit. Imo, the crusader is better than swordsage because of his recovery mechanic. Ouch. I just noticed this. Maybe I could persuade him to let it advance shadow hand, and desert wind, since such a prc would again be a threat to the kings, and stealth would be valuable for their survival. The swordsage's recovery mechanic is the worst of the 3 from what I have gathered, but it has access to cooler schools (Shadow Hand is one of my faves). What is it full round for one manuever? What do you guys think for stats for this kind of character? I'd usually dump wisdom but sword sage gets some wisdom benefits. INT > CON > ? > ? > ? > ?
#9 keithio Mar 14, 2009 19:38:10	Where do I find unseen seer and martial illusionist?? EDIT: found the seer. Sorry for not mentioning it. By Martial Illusionist I just mean a Wizard specializing in Illusion taking the "Martial Wizard" variant from Unearthed Arcana. As far as stats go, it depends on whether or not you're TWFing. Swordsage is a good TWFer thanks to the "Shadow Blade" feat. I still think you're better off wielding a 2hander, though. For TWF: Dex > Int > Con > Wis > Str > Cha Otherwise: Int > Str > Con > Dex > Wis > Cha
#10 divisionbyzer0 Mar 15, 2009 5:22:16	Sorry for not mentioning it. By Martial Illusionist I just mean a Wizard specializing in Illusion taking the "Martial Wizard" variant from Unearthed Arcana. As far as stats go, it depends on whether or not you're TWFing. Swordsage is a good TWFer thanks to the "Shadow Blade" feat. I still think you're better off wielding a 2hander, though. For TWF: Dex > Int > Con > Wis > Str > Cha Otherwise: Int > Str > Con > Dex > Wis > Cha For the record he is allowing beguiler. I have made my character as a level 1 beguiler / level 1 swordsage. He let me keep the stats open ended because this was more or less a roleplaying session in which two characters (new) got introduced to the already well established party and myt character was not finished and i couldnt stall my entrance any longer. I used the skills from my last character I made for the game last week but didn't use. I presume they will be similar once I allocate everything since i was using the ultimate deciever (stealth and social subterfuge). Didn't take a feat yet. All scores are above average save for an 11. You prefer two hander for the usual reasons I presume? It's simply a more easily optimized combat style unless going with things like ranger, or bloodclaw master (or whatever that prc in tob is), or revenant blade? My last swordsage I did a keen falchion two hander. One other problem I see with the JPM while its got sweet BAB, spells, and maneuvers, it is not flavored along the lines of either a beguiler or swordsage in terms of skills in my opinion. It's farily paladiny seeming to me in broad concept. I wonder if he'd let me swap devoted spirit for shadow hand, and modify the skills list a bit and change the fluff information to make it dark sun specific. All mages for example in dark sun get bluff which is needed to conceal spellcastin from onlookers. I could see a more specialized wizard which is part of an ancient order to need some social or stealth skills to keep themselves from being hunted down and slaughtered, if they are ever to operate in city-states in this hostile to arcane magic in general setting. Anyhow thanks for the tips. I have some more reading to do now.
#11 divisionbyzer0 Mar 16, 2009 20:25:13	scores 14 15 15 15 18 11... race elf after modifications -- works good for TWF or TH don't it? Str 15 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 18 Wis 15 Cha 11
#12 keithio Mar 17, 2009 8:01:30	Sweet stats, you should be golden!
#13 divisionbyzer0 Mar 18, 2009 17:02:00	Sweet stats, you should be golden! Any suggestions on feats aside from power attack? Flaws are allowed.
#14 eldritch_lord Mar 18, 2009 19:25:14	Extra Readied Maneuver is nice (lets you ready another of your many maneuvers) and Adaptive Style lets you refresh all of your maneuvers with a single full-round action, which is almost required. Other than that, you can pretty much go wild; that's a solid enough build without needing any specific feats.
#15 divisionbyzer0 Mar 19, 2009 7:11:36	Ah. Adaptive Style. Good call. Thanks.
#16 divisionbyzer0 Mar 19, 2009 18:45:36	Extra Readied Maneuver is nice (lets you ready another of your many maneuvers) and Adaptive Style lets you refresh all of your maneuvers with a single full-round action, which is almost required. Other than that, you can pretty much go wild; that's a solid enough build without needing any specific feats. Hmm, on second thought Adaptive Style only does this with the crusader class does it not? For other adepts it simply lets you change your readied maneuvers as a full round action I think...
#17 eldritch_lord Mar 19, 2009 22:21:19	Hmm, on second thought Adaptive Style only does this with the crusader class does it not? For other adepts it simply lets you change your readied maneuvers as a full round action I think... The feat specifies that you "change your readied maneuvers" with a full-round action, then goes on to say that you normally "change maneuvers only by spending 5 minutes to do so." Since spending 5 minutes not only changes but recovers your maneuvers, so does this feat; you can search for some Swordsage guide threads for a more thorough explanation if you want. The crusader thing just says that you re-choose granted maneuvers randomly, so you couldn't use it to refresh your maneuvers and choose which are granted.
#18 divisionbyzer0 Mar 20, 2009 18:48:58	The feat specifies that you "change your readied maneuvers" with a full-round action, then goes on to say that you normally "change maneuvers only by spending 5 minutes to do so." Since spending 5 minutes not only changes but recovers your maneuvers, so does this feat; you can search for some Swordsage guide threads for a more thorough explanation if you want. The crusader thing just says that you re-choose granted maneuvers randomly, so you couldn't use it to refresh your maneuvers and choose which are granted. Aha. Thanks for the clarifications. I'll look in the guides for more.