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Improved Precise Shot and Sneak Attack

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Giorin
Jul 11, 2012 10:31:48 Improved Precise Shot negates the miss chance for "anything less than total cover" - does that imply that you can sneak attack concealed opponents, provided sneak attack applies in all other respects? (max. 30 feet distance, lost Dex bonus to AC)
#2
StevenO
Jul 11, 2012 13:25:28 No.

At least that is going to be my take on it until I get around to reading the full text of the feat and even then I doubt my answer will change. There are some reasons for that:

1. Precise Shot lets you shoot into melee without the normal attack penalty you take to avoid hitting an ally. My understanding is that Improved Precise shot would let you avoid the cover bonus a target could be getting from anything less then total cover which almost always will block Line of Effect. I very much doubt that IPS also removes any "miss chance" you'd see from Concealment so concealment would still be in effect. I don't believe the feat would do ANYTHING about concealment which prevents SA.

2. Just because the feat removes a hinderance to your attack that is NOT the same thing as making the attack so "normal" that Sneak Attack can apply. I'd see applying Sneak Attack damage as requiring another level of clarity in an attack inorder to apply the damage. Just because you know some tricks to avoid certain attack issues that still doesn't mean you clear things up enough that getting off Sneak Attack damage becomes possible.

Looking at your question I can see were you'd could have two characters it total darkness (no cover) where you're allowing the character with IPS to fire without any of the miss chances that would normally be involved and because the defender can't see the attacker (never mind that the attacker still can't see the defender) the attack could benefit from SA.

I am more likely to bend on point #2 and allow SA as if you don't have any issues with cover but having Concealment will still kill SA.

#3
Balthanon
Jul 11, 2012 15:49:11 Improved Precise Shot covers concealment as well as cover (but not the total versions of either. And, cover doesn't impact sneak attack at all either way.) It requires a very high base attack bonus, a very high Dexterity, and a two feat chain prior to that on top of only applying to ranged attacks (and thus not allowing flanking.) I could see it potentially allowing sneak attack in situations where the opponent has concealment, but not total concealment.

That said, technically the creature does still have concealment and sneak attack is negated by concealment rather than the mischance it grants. It is splitting hairs though and the main reason that you can't sneak attack is because the mischance prevents you from hitting precisely-- without it, there isn't really much justification for the loss of sneak attack.
#4
StevenO
Jul 11, 2012 19:07:17 Thanks for the link Balthanon. When the OP leads one to believe that the feat would ignore total concealment as well that is throwing up red flags and potentially broken situations. Having IPS work against concealment does shot my issue #1 but it still does leave issue #2 in full effect.

Although the Concealment issue has been dealt with you'd still have an uphill battle convincing me that #2 no longer applies. The feat really isn't that hard to get (at least for an archery type character) and I'll stand behind the idea that while you can shoot well enough to avoid hitting issues you still can't aim carefully enough for SA damage. A potential compromise is that I WILL let you apply SA damage but only IF you forgo the benefits of the feat and thus face the AC from Cover and miss chance from Concealment; you either shoot knowing you can hit or you can go for the big damage but take the normal risks of missing.
#5
Balthanon
Jul 11, 2012 19:39:30 Cover shouldn't have anything to do with it. It doesn't prevent sneak attack, just gives an armor bonus against the attack unless you're actually just attacking a limb or something poking out of a wall.

Either way around it though, Giorin, there you go-- two DM calls. One for, one against. ;) (In other words, ask yours.)
#6
Giorin
Jul 13, 2012 4:05:36 Thanks for your reasoning! I already suspected this to be an issue for the DM to decide. In fact, being a DM myself, I am not really sure how to handle this in my campaigns. Though I discovered a fact that seems to be a point against sneak attacking concealed opponents even with IPS:

The epic feat Uncanny Accuracy (next in the feat chain, min. Dex 21) extends the "no miss chance" benefit to total concealment. You only have to pinpoint the right square. That is really cool and I can't wait getting Epic, because my character qualifies - but I can hardly imagine someone who is not able to see an effectively invisible opponent aiming and hitting a particularly vulnerable spot.

But Uncanny Accuracy puts up another question: Does the feat allow hitting invisible opponents without miss chance? Or would you make a difference between total concealment and invisibility?
#7
Balthanon
Jul 13, 2012 8:49:53 Invisibility basically grants total concealment-- if you pinpoint the person through Listen or Spot checks, that is what's left over at the end. So it should apply.
#8
Giorin
Jul 13, 2012 9:38:14 ...which leaves me with one more question: Does anybody know which sourcebook the description of Uncanny Accuracy I quoted above is from? It is not from DMG v.3.5 and not from the Epic Level Handbook either. DMG v.3.5 does not list Uncanny Accuracy, the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook gives a description that is close to Improved Precise Shot in v3.5. There seems to be no errata on this point.
Can anybody help?
#9
Balthanon
Jul 13, 2012 10:01:52 It's from the SRD, a slight update of the feat in the Epic Level Handbook to mesh with 3.5. The 3.5 D&D Update Handbook (errata for 3.0 books by WotC to bring them in line with 3.5) provided the actual update.
#10
Giorin
Apr 06, 2013 5:21:42 I think I finally found the relevant RAW. The Assassin 1 version of the spell critical strike, published 2006 in Complete Mage (actually an update to the 2005 version in the Spell Compendium):

CRITICAL STRIKE

Divination
Level: Assassin 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: One attack

As you complete this spell, you sense the blood
rushing through your target's veins

This spell guides your next attack to
your foe's vital spots. Your next single
attack roll (if it is made before the end
of the next round) ignores any miss
chance due to concealment. (In the
case of a foe that has total concealment,
you must still attack the correct
square.) This even allows you to deliver
a sneak attack against a foe that has
concealment.

Complete Mage, p. 100

The wording of the spell says: "This [i.e. ignoring any miss chance due to concealment] even allows you to deliver a sneak attack against a foe that has concealment." It does not say "This spell even allows you...". Instead it refers to the fact that the miss chance can be ignored. A spell description in an optional source book is not a premium source for core rules, but if the core rule books are silent on the matter...?

In case your DM disagrees: A rogue with acess to arcane spellcasting can get this spell with the Unseen Seer 2 Advanced Learning class feature. The prerequisite of killing someone for no other reason than becoming an assassin precludes other options as far as I am concerned.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Giorin Jul 11, 2012 10:31:48	Improved Precise Shot negates the miss chance for "anything less than total cover" - does that imply that you can sneak attack concealed opponents, provided sneak attack applies in all other respects? (max. 30 feet distance, lost Dex bonus to AC)
#2 StevenO Jul 11, 2012 13:25:28	No. At least that is going to be my take on it until I get around to reading the full text of the feat and even then I doubt my answer will change. There are some reasons for that: 1. Precise Shot lets you shoot into melee without the normal attack penalty you take to avoid hitting an ally. My understanding is that Improved Precise shot would let you avoid the cover bonus a target could be getting from anything less then total cover which almost always will block Line of Effect. I very much doubt that IPS also removes any "miss chance" you'd see from Concealment so concealment would still be in effect. I don't believe the feat would do ANYTHING about concealment which prevents SA. 2. Just because the feat removes a hinderance to your attack that is NOT the same thing as making the attack so "normal" that Sneak Attack can apply. I'd see applying Sneak Attack damage as requiring another level of clarity in an attack inorder to apply the damage. Just because you know some tricks to avoid certain attack issues that still doesn't mean you clear things up enough that getting off Sneak Attack damage becomes possible. Looking at your question I can see were you'd could have two characters it total darkness (no cover) where you're allowing the character with IPS to fire without any of the miss chances that would normally be involved and because the defender can't see the attacker (never mind that the attacker still can't see the defender) the attack could benefit from SA. I am more likely to bend on point #2 and allow SA as if you don't have any issues with cover but having Concealment will still kill SA.
#3 Balthanon Jul 11, 2012 15:49:11	Improved Precise Shot covers concealment as well as cover (but not the total versions of either. And, cover doesn't impact sneak attack at all either way.) It requires a very high base attack bonus, a very high Dexterity, and a two feat chain prior to that on top of only applying to ranged attacks (and thus not allowing flanking.) I could see it potentially allowing sneak attack in situations where the opponent has concealment, but not total concealment. That said, technically the creature does still have concealment and sneak attack is negated by concealment rather than the mischance it grants. It is splitting hairs though and the main reason that you can't sneak attack is because the mischance prevents you from hitting precisely-- without it, there isn't really much justification for the loss of sneak attack.
#4 StevenO Jul 11, 2012 19:07:17	Thanks for the link Balthanon. When the OP leads one to believe that the feat would ignore total concealment as well that is throwing up red flags and potentially broken situations. Having IPS work against concealment does shot my issue #1 but it still does leave issue #2 in full effect. Although the Concealment issue has been dealt with you'd still have an uphill battle convincing me that #2 no longer applies. The feat really isn't that hard to get (at least for an archery type character) and I'll stand behind the idea that while you can shoot well enough to avoid hitting issues you still can't aim carefully enough for SA damage. A potential compromise is that I WILL let you apply SA damage but only IF you forgo the benefits of the feat and thus face the AC from Cover and miss chance from Concealment; you either shoot knowing you can hit or you can go for the big damage but take the normal risks of missing.
#5 Balthanon Jul 11, 2012 19:39:30	Cover shouldn't have anything to do with it. It doesn't prevent sneak attack, just gives an armor bonus against the attack unless you're actually just attacking a limb or something poking out of a wall. Either way around it though, Giorin, there you go-- two DM calls. One for, one against. ;) (In other words, ask yours.)
#6 Giorin Jul 13, 2012 4:05:36	Thanks for your reasoning! I already suspected this to be an issue for the DM to decide. In fact, being a DM myself, I am not really sure how to handle this in my campaigns. Though I discovered a fact that seems to be a point against sneak attacking concealed opponents even with IPS: The epic feat Uncanny Accuracy (next in the feat chain, min. Dex 21) extends the "no miss chance" benefit to total concealment. You only have to pinpoint the right square. That is really cool and I can't wait getting Epic, because my character qualifies - but I can hardly imagine someone who is not able to see an effectively invisible opponent aiming and hitting a particularly vulnerable spot. But Uncanny Accuracy puts up another question: Does the feat allow hitting invisible opponents without miss chance? Or would you make a difference between total concealment and invisibility?
#7 Balthanon Jul 13, 2012 8:49:53	Invisibility basically grants total concealment-- if you pinpoint the person through Listen or Spot checks, that is what's left over at the end. So it should apply.
#8 Giorin Jul 13, 2012 9:38:14	...which leaves me with one more question: Does anybody know which sourcebook the description of Uncanny Accuracy I quoted above is from? It is not from DMG v.3.5 and not from the Epic Level Handbook either. DMG v.3.5 does not list Uncanny Accuracy, the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook gives a description that is close to Improved Precise Shot in v3.5. There seems to be no errata on this point. Can anybody help?
#9 Balthanon Jul 13, 2012 10:01:52	It's from the SRD, a slight update of the feat in the Epic Level Handbook to mesh with 3.5. The 3.5 D&D Update Handbook (errata for 3.0 books by WotC to bring them in line with 3.5) provided the actual update.
#10 Giorin Apr 06, 2013 5:21:42	I think I finally found the relevant RAW. The Assassin 1 version of the spell critical strike, published 2006 in Complete Mage (actually an update to the 2005 version in the Spell Compendium): CRITICAL STRIKE Divination Level: Assassin 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 swift action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: One attack As you complete this spell, you sense the blood rushing through your target's veins This spell guides your next attack to your foe's vital spots. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) ignores any miss chance due to concealment. (In the case of a foe that has total concealment, you must still attack the correct square.) This even allows you to deliver a sneak attack against a foe that has concealment. Complete Mage, p. 100 The wording of the spell says: "This [i.e. ignoring any miss chance due to concealment] even allows you to deliver a sneak attack against a foe that has concealment." It does not say "This spell even allows you...". Instead it refers to the fact that the miss chance can be ignored. A spell description in an optional source book is not a premium source for core rules, but if the core rule books are silent on the matter...? In case your DM disagrees: A rogue with acess to arcane spellcasting can get this spell with the Unseen Seer 2 Advanced Learning class feature. The prerequisite of killing someone for no other reason than becoming an assassin precludes other options as far as I am concerned.