Improved Saves [Every class] - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Improved Saves [Every class]

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
bloodofgods
Dec 24, 2009 3:37:52 One thing that I seem to notice is that most people who post character optimization builds neglect character saves to a great extent.

I see this as a major problem, because dungones and dragons is greatly a SAVE OR DIE game. It happens at much sooner levels than one would expect, and past level 15, its almost always SAVE OR DIE in every encounter.'

Thus, very high saves are a MUST.
This was the concept behind the monk in my opinion (not greatly effective offense, but steller defense)

My question is, what are the best ways to greatly improve a characters saves for all classes.

the cloak of resistance is one method, and just improving constiution, wisdom, and dexterity are another.

However, are their any other reasonable alternatives to these two options?

Im also looking for things more powerful than things such as [Great fortitude]. AKA, no feats that add +2 to ONLY 1 SAVE.

All help appreciated!
#2
CantripN
Dec 24, 2009 6:46:16 Easiest way to get good saves is to get CHA to Saves, via Divine Grace / Unearthly Grace.
Factotums can do this with INT, but only a limited number of times per encounter.
Warblades/Swordsages can use Concentration for Saves, which works rather well.
For 3,000 Gold, you can gain access to the Otyugh Hole, which gives you Iron Will (+3 Will).
Insightful Reflexes adds INT to Reflex instead of DEX, which for Wizards may mean as much as +10 Reflex.
Force of Personality adds CHA to Will (vs. Mind Affecting) instead of WIS, which for a Sorcerer may well be +13 or so.
There are other options, but these are simplest.

My own Gestalt PC has saves of +37/+34/+29 in most encounters, and he's just level 10. Can add an additional +11 as an Immediate Action.
At level 20, it's +72/+70/+64 or higher. Then, he'll be able to add +19 as an Immediate Action, and yet another +25 via Moment of Prescience.
#3
waazraath
Dec 24, 2009 7:08:40 One of the easiest way to do this is to multiclass a lot, and use a lot of different prestige classes. For example, a rogue/swordsage/slayer of domiel/bloodclaw master at lvl 10 has a helluvalot better saves then a simple rogue 10, next to the fact that it should do (some) stuff better then the rogue 10.
#4
tytalus
Dec 24, 2009 17:47:44 Spells can help, too. Superior Resistance is +6 to all saves for the entire day, better than any cloak of resistance.

Savage Species has feats that give you a +6 bonus on individual saves with the downside of a negative status effect afterwards. However, if you really want to make that save, they can can be worth it.

Multicalssing helps, as has been mentioned. Several PrCs have save bonuses (e.g., Occult Slayer, etc. I believe).

Since most save-or-dies are magical effects, the dwarves' +2 bonus is very nice.

To expand on CantripN's first suggestion, I recommend you check out the Stat X to Y thread for more tips.

#5
phaedrusxy
Dec 27, 2009 13:19:00 Travel with a buffing cleric. They can give you a +11 just from spells (Superior Resistance + Mass Conviction).
#6
surreal
Dec 27, 2009 14:34:05 Here's an old build of mine I'm always throwing about:
Marshal 2/Paladin 2/ME 10/Outcast Champion 5/XYZ 1
- take marshal minor aura for Ref saves, Reikhardt 10 apply to Fort (circumstance), Outcast Champion goes to Will (morale)
- total Cha to Ref and Fort for all allies, +9 to Will for all allies, another +cha to all saves for yourself
- Dragon Shaman 1 for vigor
- pick up draconic aura and double draconic aura
- Harmonious Knight (CV) for inspire courage - total inspire courage level 17 (+3 morale on saves vs charm/fear, attack & damage) 3/day
- 1/day get +4 insight bonus to Cha
- inspire greatness 1/day as a 12th level bard (target two people)
other feats: dilate aura (FC2)
possibility - take half-elf bard 1 with marshall cha aura (who needs reflex saves anyways?)

You're basically a big party booster just by standing around.
#7
l00mx
Dec 28, 2009 7:23:36 If you're a Sorcerer or Bard then Ruin Delver's Fortune from the Spell Compendium p178 let's you add your Charisma bonus to any one of your saves as an immediate action as well as a few other nice effects such as poison imunity or evasion. If you've pumped your Cha high enough this can really make a difference. It's a Luck bonus as well so it'll stack with almost eveything (very few things in my experience grant luck bonuses).
#8
eviltedzies
Dec 28, 2009 18:18:45 One of my favorite combinations to give yourself nice saves is....

Hexblade 3/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Blackguard 2/+12 levels in other class(s)

Hexblade gives:
* Arcane Resistance (Add Cha to saves versus spells/spell like abilities)
* Mettle!

Pally of Tyranny gives:
* Divine Grace (+Cha to saves)

Blackguard gives:
*Dark Blessing (+Cha to saves)

Since Divine Grace & Dark Blessing are named two different things and becoming a Blackguard does not violate your oath as a Paladin of Tyranny you keep both abilities. Effectively adding two times your Charisma modifyer to ALL your saves.

Throw in Arcane Resistance from Hexblade and now your getting Three Times your Cha modifyer to saves versus spells. With all those goodies it just makes it overkill that you have Mettle as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bloodofgods Dec 24, 2009 3:37:52	One thing that I seem to notice is that most people who post character optimization builds neglect character saves to a great extent. I see this as a major problem, because dungones and dragons is greatly a SAVE OR DIE game. It happens at much sooner levels than one would expect, and past level 15, its almost always SAVE OR DIE in every encounter.' Thus, very high saves are a MUST. This was the concept behind the monk in my opinion (not greatly effective offense, but steller defense) My question is, what are the best ways to greatly improve a characters saves for all classes. the cloak of resistance is one method, and just improving constiution, wisdom, and dexterity are another. However, are their any other reasonable alternatives to these two options? Im also looking for things more powerful than things such as [Great fortitude]. AKA, no feats that add +2 to ONLY 1 SAVE. All help appreciated!
#2 CantripN Dec 24, 2009 6:46:16	Easiest way to get good saves is to get CHA to Saves, via Divine Grace / Unearthly Grace. Factotums can do this with INT, but only a limited number of times per encounter. Warblades/Swordsages can use Concentration for Saves, which works rather well. For 3,000 Gold, you can gain access to the Otyugh Hole, which gives you Iron Will (+3 Will). Insightful Reflexes adds INT to Reflex instead of DEX, which for Wizards may mean as much as +10 Reflex. Force of Personality adds CHA to Will (vs. Mind Affecting) instead of WIS, which for a Sorcerer may well be +13 or so. There are other options, but these are simplest. My own Gestalt PC has saves of +37/+34/+29 in most encounters, and he's just level 10. Can add an additional +11 as an Immediate Action. At level 20, it's +72/+70/+64 or higher. Then, he'll be able to add +19 as an Immediate Action, and yet another +25 via Moment of Prescience.
#3 waazraath Dec 24, 2009 7:08:40	One of the easiest way to do this is to multiclass a lot, and use a lot of different prestige classes. For example, a rogue/swordsage/slayer of domiel/bloodclaw master at lvl 10 has a helluvalot better saves then a simple rogue 10, next to the fact that it should do (some) stuff better then the rogue 10.
#4 tytalus Dec 24, 2009 17:47:44	Spells can help, too. Superior Resistance is +6 to all saves for the entire day, better than any cloak of resistance. Savage Species has feats that give you a +6 bonus on individual saves with the downside of a negative status effect afterwards. However, if you really want to make that save, they can can be worth it. Multicalssing helps, as has been mentioned. Several PrCs have save bonuses (e.g., Occult Slayer, etc. I believe). Since most save-or-dies are magical effects, the dwarves' +2 bonus is very nice. To expand on CantripN's first suggestion, I recommend you check out the Stat X to Y thread for more tips.
#5 phaedrusxy Dec 27, 2009 13:19:00	Travel with a buffing cleric. They can give you a +11 just from spells (Superior Resistance + Mass Conviction).
#6 surreal Dec 27, 2009 14:34:05	Here's an old build of mine I'm always throwing about: Marshal 2/Paladin 2/ME 10/Outcast Champion 5/XYZ 1 - take marshal minor aura for Ref saves, Reikhardt 10 apply to Fort (circumstance), Outcast Champion goes to Will (morale) - total Cha to Ref and Fort for all allies, +9 to Will for all allies, another +cha to all saves for yourself - Dragon Shaman 1 for vigor - pick up draconic aura and double draconic aura - Harmonious Knight (CV) for inspire courage - total inspire courage level 17 (+3 morale on saves vs charm/fear, attack & damage) 3/day - 1/day get +4 insight bonus to Cha - inspire greatness 1/day as a 12th level bard (target two people) other feats: dilate aura (FC2) possibility - take half-elf bard 1 with marshall cha aura (who needs reflex saves anyways?) You're basically a big party booster just by standing around.
#7 l00mx Dec 28, 2009 7:23:36	If you're a Sorcerer or Bard then Ruin Delver's Fortune from the Spell Compendium p178 let's you add your Charisma bonus to any one of your saves as an immediate action as well as a few other nice effects such as poison imunity or evasion. If you've pumped your Cha high enough this can really make a difference. It's a Luck bonus as well so it'll stack with almost eveything (very few things in my experience grant luck bonuses).
#8 eviltedzies Dec 28, 2009 18:18:45	One of my favorite combinations to give yourself nice saves is.... Hexblade 3/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Blackguard 2/+12 levels in other class(s) Hexblade gives: * Arcane Resistance (Add Cha to saves versus spells/spell like abilities) * Mettle! Pally of Tyranny gives: * Divine Grace (+Cha to saves) Blackguard gives: Dark Blessing (+Cha to saves) Since Divine Grace & Dark Blessing are named two different things and becoming a Blackguard does not violate your oath as a Paladin of Tyranny you keep both abilities. Effectively adding two times your Charisma modifyer to ALL your saves.* Throw in Arcane Resistance from Hexblade and now your getting Three Times your Cha modifyer to saves versus spells. With all those goodies it just makes it overkill that you have Mettle as well.