Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 toriant Jan 15, 2013 11:13:10	I have a character that has both Power Attack and Combat Expertise and I'm looking for ways to do more in combat than hitting the enemies. Book access is limited, since our DM only wants to use hardcover ones she owns, so only standard + Forgotten Realms series. Although we may suggest additions to her, I'm quite hesitant, since we have a starting player and another with little experience. So I'm just hoping for some hints as to what might be interesting. I have a starting 16 in STR as a human fighter and plan to advance as paladin after level 2. I might be able to get access to the Divine Crusader PrC which should net me Strength domain and the ability to make myself large (Enlarge Person and Rigtheous Might) to get the +4 size bonus or negate it against some enemies. I have to take Weapon Focus (Greatsword) for the PrC, but by itself I can't use this weapon for trip attacks. So should I just use Improved Trip without the weapon or use a weapon designed for tripping? It seems that Disarming might be easier for me, since I would not only get the size modifier as bonus, but also a bonus for using a two-handed weapon. Are there any obvious oversights on my part to make success more likely? PS: Because of the party composition I don't think it would be wise to include options from ToB or other late additions
#2 Seeron Jan 15, 2013 11:48:58	you allready menioned the 2 ways to increase trip. size and strength. another good way is debuffing enemys STR. ask your wizard to debuff around. later on polymorph will be your friend. Buy your caster some pearls of power then, so he will have enough spell slots. also, if you have some1 with UMD skill. you can give him a staff of valiant fury later, becUse that spell gives a MORAL bonus to str so it stacks with an item and size. for disarm, its a nice third option. The drawback is, you dont get the free atttack imp trip provides you and has a even more narrowed target list, cause monster with natural atks or caster normally have nothing you can disarm. EDIT: what i forgot to mention: if you have WF(Greatsword), do you also wield one? Because you cant trip with it, so the trip-way is not really worth it. If you carry around other weapons like guisarmes and go for trip, always carry some mvk backup weapons with Quickdraw weapon crystals(MIC), so you have another weapon, while your other one is lieing on the ground. For the Weapon: there is the Sweeping enchant(MIC), which gives you +2 and if you want a spiked chain, the living chain(also MIC) is a very solid start. Also items, that give a bonus on STR checks, also help, like the Armbands of might(again MIC).
#3 WizardDidIt Jan 15, 2013 12:49:16	You likely won't have the money for it right away, but what you can do is get a Aptitude Sweeping spiked chain. The aptitude weapon enchant lets you apply any weapon feats you have to the aptitude weapon. This means you can get your WF Greatsword feat and still get the benefit of it when not using your greatsword. The enchant is found in Tome of Battle, so if you have access to it that would be the way to go.
#4 Seeron Jan 15, 2013 12:53:19	he said he dont really want to use ToB material^^ But when the suggestion come up, IF you use ToB material, dont get the enchant, just use a Warblade dip.
#5 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 15, 2013 13:06:29	It's a crying shame your DM doesn't own the Tome of Battle. It really does add the most variety and utility to melee of any book in all of 3.5, and will solve exactly your problem of looking for more to do than "hit stuff with stick". It's also very beginner-friendly and quite hard to screw up: it's very tightly designed and it's easy to build a competent character using those rules with next to no expertise. My signature uses it pretty extensively (in fact, I think every single one that isn't a spellcaster makes use of it). But, we work with what we've got. Of the basic, non-damaging maneuvers available to everyone, Tripping is by far the most useful, with second place being somewhat situational depending on your level and your opponents (and, to a lesser extent, your battlefield). I like bull rushing early on, particularly if you're strong (since it doesn't require an attack roll and early on, the battlefield can be more powerful than your sword if you can push someone off a cliff or knock over a statue onto them or similar); grappling can be powerful until Freedom of Movement shows up; disarm and sunder are generally frowned upon and rarely see use, but are still sometimes used; the other combat maneuvers are largely forgotten. (The other maneuvers include things like charging, which you probably already use and may be getting bored of.) If you're going to get Improved Trip, you've got a lot of options open to you. The best involve switching to a trip-capable weapon; the best of these in widely-available books is the spiked chain. Note, however, that Improved Trip's followup attack doesn't require you to use the same weapon with which you tripped: you can trip someone with a leg-hook (unarmed touch) and follow up with a greatsword drop. One possibility that doesn't require too many books to consider is Combat Reflexes. Especially if you switch to the spiked chain, because in addition to being a trip weapon, it has long reach and still threatens your normal reach. From here, you look to anything in any book that allows you to make AoOs in response to other triggers - and you respond to these by either tripping the foe or smacking them in the face, whichever disrupts their action more. If the Expanded Psionics Handbook is available (it's widespread enough and in the SRD, I'm not sure if you have it), there's a nonpsionic feat called Stand Still which might interest you on this approach. If you're considering Divine Crusader, I would suggest reading this first though. They're not quite as straightforward as they seem.
#6 EruditeApe Jan 15, 2013 13:25:23	Speaking of tripping... Also, if you're going Divine Crusader, take Sovereign Speaker. That way you can have, well, an actual spell list.
#7 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 15, 2013 13:49:19	Speaking of tripping... Oddly enough, I was just looking for this for a different project... Also, if you're going Divine Crusader, take Sovereign Speaker. That way you can have, well, an actual spell list.  This was covered on the second link in my post, but a caveat: That gets kind of charisma-centric, and we're dealing with a Fighter/Paladin. Additionally, Sovereign Speaker is from Faiths of Eberron, which is not on the allowed books list ("only standard + Forgotten Realms series"); while some extra sources can be suggested, considering that the Sovereign Speaker is ludicrously strong and that book also contained the atrocity that is the Planar Shepherd ("Let's give Druids ten times the available actions! That won't break anything!"), I doubt it'd be allowed. (Hell, I even know Eberron games that don't use that book!)
#8 toriant Jan 15, 2013 13:51:36	Thanks for the link. Practiced spellcaster is indeed something that didn't come to my mind, yet, although I will have to ask for permission first, since it is from Complete xxx series. I don't think that I will need a great deal of optimization for this campaign, as the focus seems to be more on story and roleplay and we only have played for two sessions yet ;) My main concern was to get some ideas and options that I have from my chosen starting point as plain fighter. I think I will only take Improved Trip and pass on Improved Disarm. For tripping I'll look into the heavy flail, as I suspect that bludgeoning could serve me better as alternative damage type, when I stick to the greatsword in general. PS: Is it right that Divine Might only lasts one round while Divine Shield depends on me using a shield but lasts longer?
#9 EruditeApe Jan 15, 2013 14:22:18	This was covered on the second link in my post, but a caveat: That gets kind of charisma-centric, and we're dealing with a Fighter/Paladin. Additionally, Sovereign Speaker is from Faiths of Eberron, which is not on the allowed books list ("only standard + Forgotten Realms series"); while some extra sources can be suggested, considering that the Sovereign Speaker is ludicrously strong and that book also contained the atrocity that is the Planar Shepherd ("Let's give Druids ten times the available actions! That won't break anything!"), I doubt it'd be allowed. (Hell, I even know Eberron games that don't use that book!) Missed the book limits. What is "standard," by the way? Core+Complete+Expansions(ToB/ToM/Incarnum)+Compendiums? But FoE also has Escalation Mage, and I love that class. Also, that Shifter Druid PrC. And, more seriously, Divine Crusader is awful without list expanders. I suggest trying to get the Heroism domain from OA. Giant Size is awesome.
#10 StevenO Jan 15, 2013 14:50:50	Thanks for the link. Practiced spellcaster is indeed something that didn't come to my mind, yet, although I will have to ask for permission first, since it is from Complete xxx series. .... PS: Is it right that Divine Might only lasts one round while Divine Shield depends on me using a shield but lasts longer? All Practice Spellcaster gets you is a little more "omph" from the spells you can already cast.  It does NOT give you more spell but rather lets you use a bigger number when CL is looked at when it comes to effect. Looking up those two feats I think you have it right.  I'll also point out that while Divine Might just lasts one round it is a swift action to use and you should know if you are going to use it.  Divine Shield takes a standard action to use and even when you do there is no guarentee it is going to be used.
#11 toriant Jan 16, 2013 10:17:34	This was covered on the second link in my post, but a caveat: That gets kind of charisma-centric, and we're dealing with a Fighter/Paladin. Additionally, Sovereign Speaker is from Faiths of Eberron, which is not on the allowed books list ("only standard + Forgotten Realms series"); while some extra sources can be suggested, considering that the Sovereign Speaker is ludicrously strong and that book also contained the atrocity that is the Planar Shepherd ("Let's give Druids ten times the available actions! That won't break anything!"), I doubt it'd be allowed. (Hell, I even know Eberron games that don't use that book!) Missed the book limits. What is "standard," by the way? Core+Complete+Expansions(ToB/ToM/Incarnum)+Compendiums? But FoE also has Escalation Mage, and I love that class. Also, that Shifter Druid PrC. And, more seriously, Divine Crusader is awful without list expanders. I suggest trying to get the Heroism domain from OA. Giant Size is awesome.  Standard sadly is only PHB, DMG and MM. How can I expand the spell list? I wanted to start with Enlarge Person until Righteous Might is available and thought about buffing my plate and animated shield with Magic Vestment each day. With 10 levels Divine Crusader, 2 levels some other progression class (maybe Divine Disciple) to add to the caster level, Practiced spellcaster and strands of prayer beads I would get exactly to 20 caster level for a +5 bonus via Magic Vestment, which could save me some money to spend on other stuff.
#12 StevenO Jan 16, 2013 11:35:06	If your GM is looking for something "balanced" the Core plus FR is probably NOT the way to do it.  Note that "Core" = PHB, DMG, MM1 and anything beyond that will be considered supplemental material.  Some times "core" is expanded to include all the OGL material that is found in the official SRD (system resource document) but don't count on that.  I know that when I think about "standard" I just think of the the Core plus the completes. When it comes to supplemental material the Forgotten Realms have some pretty crazy things that are sometimes used to "break" the game.  At least that is my observation.
#13 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 16, 2013 11:56:39	Standard sadly is only PHB, DMG and MM. Oh, great, the least well-designed or balanced environment in 3.5, especially for melee... Still, we'll work with what we've got. What's the FR books allowed? Largely, that's where you'll want to be working. Plus, you managed to get the Divine Crusader OKed, so it's not a total wash. How can I expand the spell list? Adding extra domains. Well, it's largely more than that, since getting a domain doesn't technically add the domain's spells to your spell list (that's normally a function of cleric spellcasting, and divine crusader spellcasting is slightly different). You need a class that adds the spells to your spell list as well. Easily the most powerful example of this is the Sovereign Speaker (add up to nine bonus domains!... provided you have no more than two from any single deity within the pantheon this PrC is designed to follow), which includes specific text in the case where you add the domain's spells to your spell list. There's probably also some other corner cases that might work, but I'm not certain offhand what they may be. A basic example is using a different divine-spellcasting-advancing PrC to advance Divine Crusader, when the other PrC includes spell list enhancements (Prestige Paladin or Prestige Ranger, for instance, add the unique paladin-only or ranger-only spells to whatever spellcasting class they advance). I wanted to start with Enlarge Person until Righteous Might is available \and thought about buffing my plate and animated shield with Magic Vestment each day. With 10 levels Divine Crusader, 2 levels some other progression class (maybe Divine Disciple) to add to the caster level, Practiced spellcaster and strands of prayer beads I would get exactly to 20 caster level for a +5 bonus via Magic Vestment, which could save me some money to spend on other stuff. That's a lot of investment in terms of classes to save a bit in terms of cash. And your CL will not advance at a steady rate, so your magic will be but a trickle until all of that is online. Could you post the build concept (exactly what your idea is) along with the build so far? It might be more constructive to see it all in one place.
#14 toriant Jan 16, 2013 12:38:28	When I first thought about the character, I just imagined it to start as a simple Fighter and advance to a Paladin, Purple Dragon Knight and later Divine Champion of Torm, because that seemed to be the most damaging two-handed weapon as a favored weapon in the central FR-pantheon. Then I figured out that all of these classes had poor WILL saves and tried to change the goalpost from there: Show Human Fighter (1) STR: 16, CON: 12, DEX: 12, INT: 14, WIS: 10, CHA: 14 32 point buy with guaranteed max-hp on each level Skills: Climb 4, Craft (Weaponsmith) 4, Jump 4, Ride 2, Spot 2, Swim 2 Feats: Power Attack, Luck of Heroes, Combat Expertise Current progression would be: Fighter (2), Paladin (6) for Remove Disease, Divine Crusader (10) and something (2) for 2 more added spellcaster levels Feats I want: Improved Trip, Force of Personality and Practiced Spellcaster (not yet allowed), Improved Critical (not entirely convinced)
#15 StevenO Jan 16, 2013 13:04:46	When I first thought about the character, I just imagined it to start as a simple Fighter and advance to a Paladin, Purple Dragon Knight and later Divine Champion of Torm, because that seemed to be the most damaging two-handed weapon as a favored weapon in the central FR-pantheon. Then I figured out that all of these classes had poor WILL saves and tried to change the goalpost from there: Show Human Fighter (1) STR: 16, CON: 12, DEX: 12, INT: 14, WIS: 10, CHA: 14 32 point buy with guaranteed max-hp on each level Skills: Climb 4, Craft (Weaponsmith) 4, Jump 4, Ride 2, Spot 2, Swim 2 Feats: Power Attack, Luck of Heroes, Combat Expertise Current progression would be: Fighter (2), Paladin (6) for Remove Disease, Divine Crusader (10) and something (2) for 2 more added spellcaster levels Feats I want: Improved Trip, Force of Personality and Practiced Spellcaster (not yet allowed), Improved Critical (not entirely convinced)
#16 toriant Jan 16, 2013 13:44:26	It would be 2, since I wanted the feat to improve my CL for Divine Crusader and thereby allowing my buffs to last longer and Magic Vestment to have a higher enhancement for armor and shield.
#17 StevenO Jan 16, 2013 14:05:22	It would be 2, since I wanted the feat to improve my CL for Divine Crusader and thereby allowing my buffs to last longer and Magic Vestment to have a higher enhancement for armor and shield. Thanks for that info and sorry for any infered hostility.  If you want the low level buffs to "last" then going from CL 2 to CL 6 can help and it does push things up.  I am just making sure people know how Practiced Spellcaster works because I have seen some who will believe that it adds to a character's spellcasting level which would allow a Ftr4/Wiz6 to cast spells just like a Wiz 10 meaning 5th-level spells.
#18 toriant Jan 16, 2013 14:20:00	No offense taken. Sometimes it is necessary to be specific. Oh, and I forgot to add something for Tempest: The DM has the Player's Guide to Faerûn, The Campaign Setting, The Underdark and some book featuring demons and devils (don't know the name).