In Search of Spock: RAW New Spells

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

dr_rocktopus

Jun 04, 2009 0:49:46
Here is the heart of the trick.

RARY'S ARCANE CONVERSION

Universal
Level: Wizard 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
You feel slightly dizzy as the power of your
spell rewrites the knowledge within your
mind.
Rary's arcane conversion allows you to
exchange a prepared wizard spell for
another spell of equal or lower level.
For instance, upon casting this spell,
you could choose to lose a prepared fly
spell and have fireball prepared in its
place. The replacement spell must be
one already scribed in your spellbook.
The new spell is now prepared and ready
to cast as normal, just as though you
had prepared it when you last studied
your spells.


Excerpted from Complete Mage.
#2

dr_rocktopus

Jun 04, 2009 0:54:33
Reserved
#3

LordKain

Jun 04, 2009 2:14:19
Nice, but my DM would laugh in my face. :p
#4

dr_rocktopus

Jun 04, 2009 2:17:57
You should see some of my other builds.
Your GM is right to laugh. Spock can cast any spell in the game using a slot 2 to 4 to 6 levels too low.
#5

cru

Jun 04, 2009 2:42:46
I don't get it. You use Recaster or Drakehelm to cast Rary's Arcane Conversion. OK. And what next? What do you gain?
#6

Senevri

Jun 04, 2009 3:01:19
But but, do you have any wizard spells prepared? What is the definition of a "prepared wizard spell" in this instance? Is Arcane Preparation + any spell appearing on sor/wiz list enough? Excluding Sor only spells, of course.
#7

dr_rocktopus

Jun 04, 2009 3:19:22
But but, do you have any wizard spells prepared? What is the definition of a "prepared wizard spell" in this instance? Is Arcane Preparation + any spell appearing on sor/wiz list enough? Excluding Sor only spells, of course.

Yes it is, by my reading, or wizards are going to have trouble here too.
While I don't normally truck in fluff, all evidence in the actual feat suggests that arcane preparation was intended to allow you to count as preparing spells. Just as paladin spells are always paladin spells, wizard spells are always wizard spells. At least this is as far as I can reckon, given what I know.

What you gain is that chameleon nets you the ability to own and have a spellbook, as well as to scribe into it using your floating feat and extra spell with a little bit of finagling. As a chameleon, we have access to any list we want. So our spell book is full of spells we known, but can't really cast.


Oh Wait.

Thanks Rary!

You can certainly do this with Picard, and probably could stretch him to stratospheric power levels, it's just less interesting. I wanted to see if a sorcerer could do this. To clarify, there's only two distinct builds because I wanted to demonstrate a simple version. You can snatch or swap any parts you really favor back and forth.
#8

dr_rocktopus

Jun 04, 2009 3:25:50
I really need a way to get scribe scroll for spock. I'd like to avoid flaws, because I think it's pretty cool that these builds don't need them.
#9

bobtheapple

Jun 04, 2009 5:35:58
Interesting idea. However, I'm not sure a wiz/sorc spell prepared by a sorcerer qualifies as a wizard spell. After all, if that was the case, wouldn't a domain spell that appears on the wiz/sorc list prepared by a cleric be a wizard spell? Making Archivist a natural candidate for Rary abuse.

That being said, couldn't Spock just float scribe scroll? Or if you want to scribe your Extra Spells, isn't dragon heritage Psychic Reformable? Short of that, you could just temporarily P.Reform Earth Spell, grab scribe scroll, scribe away, then reform back.

I'm not sure what you mean by Rary's wording allowing "double dipping" with SCM, could you elaborate on that?
#10

acereraklives

Jun 04, 2009 6:08:47
Well, sure Spock can swing a flaw or two for scribe scroll.

It's Kirk who's flawless!

(bah dum psssh!)
#11

dandu

Jun 04, 2009 6:46:12
Kirk? Pffft, surely you meant Picard
#12

Omen_of_Peace

Jun 04, 2009 7:46:29
Your spontaneity is limited by the number of level 6 slots you waste use on Rary's, correct ?

It strikes me as inferior to Uncanny Forethought. Which is none of your fault, given how stupidly powerful UF is.
#13

dandu

Jun 04, 2009 8:54:14
And thanks to Tainted Scholar we get a metric sh*t-ton of spell slots.
#14

Omen_of_Peace

Jun 04, 2009 10:01:43
If you have enough Taint to gain a "ton" of bonus spell slots, you don't need that much spontaneity IMO, because your save DCs are so stupidly high that your SoDs always work (barring natural 20 on saves). So: chained Unluck + chained Phantasmal Killer (for instance) = game-over.

(I think it's more interesting when a trick stands mostly on its own, i.e. is not entirely dependent on another powerful trick.

There's potential here, so I look forward to the Doctor squeezing more juice out of it. )
#15

PlzBreakMyCampaign

Jun 04, 2009 13:51:57
Kirk? Pffft, surely you meant Picard

Oh Sh*t Everyone stand back as the biggest nerd war finds a new (not to mention ripe) battleground. Everyone should know what I'm talking about.

Perhaps I don't understand this thread DocRoc... why is this so great? I think we need you to walk through the steps succinctly. And yes that was a test to see if you know your spiderman well enough
#16

dr_rocktopus

Jun 04, 2009 14:00:06
Rary's has an interestin' problem.
See, poor old Rary never said you had to switch INTO a wizard spell.
So with the chameleon dip and some strong kung-fu, we actually have access to just about anything we can write down. And for a chameleon, that's basically anything you can lay your hands on. And with extra spell and our shifting lists, we can lay our hands on anything we want or need.

Next, we use this + signature spell from halruaan elder which is.... poorly worded to snag Rary's in the first place. Now we're actually not using aptitude focus here, we end up using our floating feat and extra spell and then just writing it down so that we know it. Which we can do. We have the spellbook, and we do know how to use it.

Signature spell then as worded in the halruaan elder allows us to pick any spell we know. And make it accessible to all of our lists of spells known.

We now never need to prepare rary's, instead we can burn spells for it.


More to come. I promise you this guy's power level is over 9000.

Basically, you can use rary's all day, the day before, then rest to recover your slots. Spells you don't change just stay in your head, as I understand it. I've certainly never seen any contra-evidence, and the artifact spells from eberron in fact _require_ it to be this way, and no exception was written for them. My conclusion seems to be basically valid. I will, in a bit, explain the dip\double-dip mechanism.

I'll try to write it up succinctly. This should have been posted up by Guide_Seneschal...
#17

acereraklives

Jun 04, 2009 15:09:14
Oh Sh*t Everyone stand back as the biggest nerd war finds a new (not to mention ripe) battleground. Everyone should know what I'm talking about.

Perhaps I don't understand this thread DocRoc... why is this so great? I think we need you to walk through the steps succinctly. And yes that was a test to see if you know your spiderman well enough

Yes indeed, the gauntlet has been thrown down!
#18

Omen_of_Peace

Jun 04, 2009 15:19:43
My bad: I thought you wanted more spontaneity, when in fact this is meant to create some kind of arcane Archivist, correct ?
#19

Senevri

Jun 04, 2009 15:24:27
I'm a bit slow sometimes.
Does a Heightened Rary's do what I think it does? It does, doesn't it...
It doesn't take much to turn this into "Adaptive Style for Wizards"....
#20

dr_rocktopus

Jun 04, 2009 15:25:53
You mean the tricorder.
#21

dr_rocktopus

Jun 04, 2009 15:27:53
It's worse, actually.

See, rary's doesn't specify the spell level.

We heighten the spell we chose to burn, which specifies what spell level we can get a hold of.
This does EXACTLY what you think it does, since it uses the level of the prepared spell. This, then, is the same as the trickery we love to hate involving the SCM. We don't just get versatility out of this, we get a chance at serious power.
We can burn it into a heightened illusion spell, letting us double dip (earth-spell\arcane thesis+heighten\sanctum spell) for the purposes of SCM.

It's as bad or worse with a sorcerer.
#22

Omen_of_Peace

Jun 04, 2009 16:26:14
Can you scribe a metamagicked spell in your spellbook ? Otherwise you can't use Rary to convert your original (heightened) spell into a heightened figment, can you ?
"The replacement spell must be one already scribed in your spellbook."

I am probably still not understanding well where you're going...
#23

dr_rocktopus

Jun 04, 2009 18:44:53
For us, we can get permanent image as a seventh level spell by stealing it from the creation domain. We then count it as a eighth level spell using sanctum spell. That should be sufficient..... ?
#24

curufin

Jun 04, 2009 19:00:40
Univ Rary's Arcane Conversion: Instantly lose a prepared wizard spell and replace it with another spell from your spellbook. (Wizard only.)

That from the spell list in Complete Mage. The (Wizard only.) at the end presents a slight problem.
#25

emy

Jun 04, 2009 19:18:51
That from the spell list in Complete Mage. The (Wizard only.) at the end presents a slight problem.

That is descriptive text in a spell list, not the rules text for the spell.

Additionally, the "(Wizard only.)" refers to the fact that appears on the wizard spell list, and not the sorcerer list. This is because the section of the spell lists in which it appears is the "Sorcerer/Wizard" section.
#26

Folarin

Jun 04, 2009 19:35:35
Of course, then you have Sisko, who, you know, was kind of worshiped as a prophet for an entire planet...

Anyways, whenever you can get a Star Trek reference in a game, you automatically win, until Q(or PunPun in DnD terms) shows up.
#27

SwordDisciple

Jun 04, 2009 20:02:43
Well I like the idea.. I believe it works and being that no-one else here has done this:



Another interesting idea to work with, thanks Doc :D
#28

masterjoda999

Jun 04, 2009 21:06:53
Not really sure how helpful this is, but perhaps the tome of ancient lore in the MIC could be of help here, since it has no restrictions for wizards and wu jen only?
#29

dr_rocktopus

Jun 04, 2009 21:17:35
My goodness, that's a hell of a find! It even lets you use it explicitly in preparing spells.


I wonder. Huh. I think that cinches the RAW of it! Thank you so much!
#30

lormador

Jun 04, 2009 21:33:51
It has not escaped my notice that Spock has Circle Magic.

I keep trying to figure out some kind of loop with Repeat Spell and Mneumonic Enhancer, still without success.
#31

dr_rocktopus

Jun 04, 2009 22:05:02
Echoing spell, Mneumonic enhancer.
Have fun!
#32

dr_rocktopus

Jun 05, 2009 19:46:41
Fixed an error in spock's build :S
#33

curufin

Jun 05, 2009 20:50:11
What about the feat prereqs for Halruaan Elder?

Halruaan Adept, Spell Thematics, any item creation feat. You have the metamagic feat.
#34

dr_rocktopus

Jun 05, 2009 21:23:19
Ugh, oh yeah. :: laughs :: okay well let me go doodle with that.

Fixed, but not to my satisfaction. Superior options are gleefully accepted.
#35

curufin

Jun 05, 2009 23:08:00
My immediate thought was versatile spellcasting so you can prepare a 10th level spell. But do we need higher level spells?

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.

So persistent shapechange is still just a 9th level spell. Will Rary's let us change any spell into a super metamagiced version? We aren't preparing the metamagic versions, so the bump on spell slot does not matter. But will we need an open higher level slot to actually cast the spell, or does Rary's let us get around that?
#36

xakypshalorn

Jun 05, 2009 23:14:36
Actually Curufin, your onto something. I remember reading somewhere (which I then showed to my DM) that wizard's can research and scribe metamagicked versions of spells into their spellbooks and then cast them as spells of their base spell level, though their still treated as the base spell level for spell level purposes.

In other words, in an epic campaign world where there are wizards capable of casting such spells, for the right price, enough research, and a DM willing to put up with it, you could track down scroll of, say... Twinned, Empowered, Maximized Summon Monster 9. Say hello to my 20 + 1d4+1 (I say twin and empower would balance eachother out) SM 7 level friends :D

Edit: Rapid Twinned Empowered Maximized Summon Monster 9, get it it out in a standard action. Or worse, have Arcane Spell Surge up, Cast one with Rapid, one Without.
#37

dr_rocktopus

Jun 06, 2009 1:01:48
I actually remember this too. If you could find that, I'd be quite grateful, to the sound of a stack of cookies.
#38

PlzBreakMyCampaign

Jun 07, 2009 11:07:46
My immediate thought was versatile spellcasting so you can prepare a 10th level spell.

It lets you cast but not prepare.

And I finally understand the 'rary' = SANCTUrary spell thing.

But as posted before ... the purpose of this is to get an arcane (spontaneous) archivist right?
#39

dr_rocktopus

Jun 07, 2009 16:30:13
Functionally, yes, it was.

Did you mean Sanctu-rary? ;)
#40

lormador

Jun 08, 2009 11:14:35
OK, we use an Energy Transformation Field linked to a Maximized Absorption spell. We can use Circle Magic for this, or else a Rod of Metamagic.

Then, use Circle Magic to cast a 10th level spell at self, triggering the field and resulting in the Absorption getting put on us. We step out of the field, and cast the spell a second time. We now have 10 levels of spell to play with, to cast 'any spell we know' without using a slot.

Which spell do we choose?

If the spell we cast on ourselves just happened to be benefiting from Earth Spell, Sanctum Spell, and Arcane Thesis; and was also an Echoing spell (Adroit Casting set to Echoing Spell); we can step into the field once again, and cast it to get our Absorption back.

In about an hour, all three spells we cast will Echo, one after the other. We step out of the field for round 1, and the first Echo gets Absorbed. Cast the spell again, using the Absorbed energy, and step into the field in time for the next Echo to trigger the field and put on a new Absorption. Step out of the field, and the next Echo gets Absorbed.

One can see what's happening. The Energy Transformation Field and the Absorptions let us get more out of the Echoing spells than we put into them. Absorption energy has the additional virtue of letting us cast any of the spells we've scribed, which is anything at all for Spock. Both Absorption and Energy Transformation Field trigger on the spell level of the incoming spell, and Echoing Spell reduces caster level which they don't care about. Circle Magic lets us get plenty of Echoes from the outset, anyway.

Now, at some point we might want to do something other than dance around in a magical field shuffling juggling huge chunks arcane energy. This will probably be the point at which we've got a 10th level Echoing Silent Image coming back in every round, for an hour, the period of Echoing Spell.

We no longer need to rest to prepare new spells, and have the functional equivalent of 600 10th level spell slots.
#41

dr_rocktopus

Jun 08, 2009 13:53:25
Holy crap.

Is that a completely new infinite hack?
#42

Senevri

Jun 08, 2009 14:23:53
Naw. I think T_G figured that one out... I think it's in Campaign Smashers, even. TLTC
*edit*
Okay, apparently not too lazy to check, didn't find it easily, but I'm sure I've seen this, or a similar one before.
I think the Echoing part may be new.
#43

dr_rocktopus

Jun 08, 2009 14:38:30
I believe there's a similar version, but this looks.... cleaner than the one I remember.
#44

lormador

Jun 08, 2009 20:10:43
I didn't know it had been discovered before, but I'm not at all surprised.

I just thought since Spock is down here casting any spell in the game, it's just such a shame for him to be limited to a certain number of slots.
#45

dr_rocktopus

Jun 22, 2009 20:10:45
because this may be my single favorite of my builds. Also because I've done very little interesting work since. :|
#46

lormador

Jun 23, 2009 11:12:15
So what is the minimum level at which we can cast any spell in the game, at a rather inflated caster level, as many times as we wish?
#47

dr_rocktopus

Jun 23, 2009 12:36:26
Not sure, I didn't really try to push spock as low as I could. Picard could probably do it quite early, around 13th.
#48

lormador

Jun 23, 2009 12:37:45
Scrolls make this game silly.
#49

dr_rocktopus

Jun 23, 2009 15:51:54
Scrolls make my head hurt so much. I've never understood who thought they were balanced for certain spells you never want to have prepared that aren't CL dependent. Seriously, just completely bizarre.
#50

donkt

Jun 28, 2009 16:06:19
Can someone clearly explain what is going on here? I don't understand the goal of this build nor how it accomplishes it.

I see how you can switch around your spells known using Rary's Arcane Conversion. I see the argument for sorceror's having a spellbook. So you can switch out spells limited by the amount of times you can 6th lv spells to use on Rary's Arcane Conversion. Is there a trick or two I'm missing? I don't see how you are casting spells 2 to 4 to 6 lvs lower nor do I understand most of the other stuff going on. Can someone clearly explain this trick, step by step?
#51

dandu

Jun 28, 2009 16:28:56
The part where you get 20 some 6th level spells from Tainted Scholar may play a part in it.