Incantatrix vs I7SfV - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Incantatrix vs I7SfV

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
gara
Apr 15, 2008 12:09:08 Something has been bothering me, and I was hopping you could help. In several of the Wizard threads, there is a bit of an argument on weather an Incantatrix can “steal” the veils from an I7SfV.

I don’t have the book that Incantatrix is in, so maybe I just don’t get it, but doesn’t the “Steal Spell” ability allow you to, well, steal spells?

The thing is, I7SfV’s wards aren’t spells, they aren’t even spell like abilities, they are “Class Features”. Somehow stealing veils seems like walking up to a cleric and trying to steal his “Turn Undead”.

Can someone tell me what I’m missing? Thanks.

----
Gara
#2
jackmojo
Apr 15, 2008 13:27:43 It doesn't come right out and say it but all the other text would seem to indicate that the Veils are Spell Like abilities (equivalent to a spell of a given level for example) and I think it would entirely reasonable to treat them as such (since it would be odd if they worked in an Anti-magic field for example).

The Incantatrix's Snatch Spell ability makes no mention of affecting anything other then spells, so I'd b inclined to say they are unable to seize control of the veils.

I agree that the interaction of two poorly worded abilities is confusing though

Jack
#3
phoenix00
Apr 15, 2008 13:59:17 both prismatic walls and many force effects (such as force cage) work in an AMF too you know. Reread their descriptions.
#4
jackmojo
Apr 15, 2008 15:44:59 Fair enough. I stand by my reading of the interaction as being reasonable nonetheless.

(Incidentally, I just noticed that although the AMF spell and Antimagic field entry mention that Wall of Force is not affected (and AMF says to see the spell description for how it works) Wall of Force makes no mention of not being affected by it in its description, odd).

Jack
#5
x-codes
Apr 15, 2008 15:50:55 All you could do after stealing a veil is dismiss it. It wouldn't suddenly surround you instead of the IotSV. All the variables are determined at the time of "casting" so theres nothing else to do. Since Seize Spell and dismissing a spell are both Standard actions, it's a very inefficient way to break through an IotSV's veils. (Also, if you want to use a 7 in the acronym it's Iot7fV, the S stands for Sevenfold.)
#6
fil_kearney
Apr 15, 2008 18:05:12 could a spell thief then take veils for his own use?
#7
Treantmonklvl20
Apr 15, 2008 18:16:39 Sigh...

Whether the IotSV's veil's are spells isn't the point.

The Steal Spell ability does not work on all spells. It only works on spells that are controlled. I posted the exact wording on the other thread (though admittedly - there's alot to go through:

Excerpt from Players Guide to Faerun: Specifically - Incantatrix "steal spell" ability:
The effect must be one that does not rely on concentration but still rely's on or responds to the caster's control (such as a summon monster or spiritual hammer but not a wall of fire or acid fog)

Note the examples - I did not create them, they are in the text.

So if Wall of Fire and Acid Fog are examples of spells that are not controlled - then by what criteria are we suggesting that the veil is?

It was suggested that "because a veil can be dismissed it is controlled." However, Wall of Fire and Acid Fog can be dismissed to - but are given as specific examples of spells that are not applicable. Therefore, we can conclude that "being able to dismiss" a spell is NOT basis for control as far as this ability is concerned.

The only argument that I think remains in question is that "a veil in bubble form moves with the caster - and therefore the caster 'controls' it."

Personally, I don't think that's control - but the examples given don't specifically include or preclude that argument.

The examples of spells that specifically can be controlled (summoning or spiritual hammer) respond to commands from the caster. They attack who the caster commands, or move where the caster wills them to move.

However, movement by being centered on a moving target controlled by the caster (namely, himself) is not specifically dealt with - so you have a "grey" area.

So there's your real question. Is a spell that moves with the caster controlled?
#8
jindy
Apr 15, 2008 18:48:58 Can the Incantatrix steal Mage Armor? Seems to me that's the same thing as stealing the veil (getting past the Veil is a "warding", not a spell)? Seems to me the answer is no. Mage Armor is cast on a person (the Wizard) and moves only because the Wizard moves. So, it's basically like acid fog, which moves because the wind moves it.

The bubble or area (both move, per the text of the ward ability) move with the Wizard, and are centered on the wizard. So, they only move if the Wizard physically moves. The Wizard can try to move them all day with his mind and get no where.

That's not controlling it.

Likewise, anyone who crosses a veil takes damage. The Wizard doesn't control this either. If a cleric tries to touch the wizard through the veil, the cleric takes the appropriate damage. If a Troll tries to beat up the Wizard, the troll takes damage. This is automatic, and outside of the Wizard's control.
#9
Omen_of_Peace
Apr 15, 2008 21:31:48
Sigh...

Whether the IotSV's veil's are spells isn't the point.

While I agree with the rest of your argument, this is very much relevant. The veils are not spells, they can't be stolen. End of discussion. :P

(Arguably, people can quote "Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name." ; then we go on to your arguments.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gara Apr 15, 2008 12:09:08	Something has been bothering me, and I was hopping you could help. In several of the Wizard threads, there is a bit of an argument on weather an Incantatrix can “steal” the veils from an I7SfV. I don’t have the book that Incantatrix is in, so maybe I just don’t get it, but doesn’t the “Steal Spell” ability allow you to, well, steal spells? The thing is, I7SfV’s wards aren’t spells, they aren’t even spell like abilities, they are “Class Features”. Somehow stealing veils seems like walking up to a cleric and trying to steal his “Turn Undead”. Can someone tell me what I’m missing? Thanks. ---- Gara
#2 jackmojo Apr 15, 2008 13:27:43	It doesn't come right out and say it but all the other text would seem to indicate that the Veils are Spell Like abilities (equivalent to a spell of a given level for example) and I think it would entirely reasonable to treat them as such (since it would be odd if they worked in an Anti-magic field for example). The Incantatrix's Snatch Spell ability makes no mention of affecting anything other then spells, so I'd b inclined to say they are unable to seize control of the veils. I agree that the interaction of two poorly worded abilities is confusing though Jack
#3 phoenix00 Apr 15, 2008 13:59:17	both prismatic walls and many force effects (such as force cage) work in an AMF too you know. Reread their descriptions.
#4 jackmojo Apr 15, 2008 15:44:59	Fair enough. I stand by my reading of the interaction as being reasonable nonetheless. (Incidentally, I just noticed that although the AMF spell and Antimagic field entry mention that Wall of Force is not affected (and AMF says to see the spell description for how it works) Wall of Force makes no mention of not being affected by it in its description, odd). Jack
#5 x-codes Apr 15, 2008 15:50:55	All you could do after stealing a veil is dismiss it. It wouldn't suddenly surround you instead of the IotSV. All the variables are determined at the time of "casting" so theres nothing else to do. Since Seize Spell and dismissing a spell are both Standard actions, it's a very inefficient way to break through an IotSV's veils. (Also, if you want to use a 7 in the acronym it's Iot7fV, the S stands for Sevenfold.)
#6 fil_kearney Apr 15, 2008 18:05:12	could a spell thief then take veils for his own use?
#7 Treantmonklvl20 Apr 15, 2008 18:16:39	Sigh... Whether the IotSV's veil's are spells isn't the point. The Steal Spell ability does not work on all spells. It only works on spells that are controlled. I posted the exact wording on the other thread (though admittedly - there's alot to go through: *Excerpt from Players Guide to Faerun:* Specifically - Incantatrix "steal spell" ability:** The effect must be one that does not rely on concentration but still rely's on or responds to the caster's control (such as a summon monster or spiritual hammer but not a wall of fire or acid fog) Note the examples - I did not create them, they are in the text. So if Wall of Fire and Acid Fog are examples of spells that are not controlled - then by what criteria are we suggesting that the veil is? It was suggested that "because a veil can be dismissed it is controlled." However, Wall of Fire and Acid Fog can be dismissed to - but are given as specific examples of spells that are not applicable. Therefore, we can conclude that "being able to dismiss" a spell is NOT basis for control as far as this ability is concerned. The only argument that I think remains in question is that "a veil in bubble form moves with the caster - and therefore the caster 'controls' it." Personally, I don't think that's control - but the examples given don't specifically include or preclude that argument. The examples of spells that specifically can be controlled (summoning or spiritual hammer) respond to commands from the caster. They attack who the caster commands, or move where the caster wills them to move. However, movement by being centered on a moving target controlled by the caster (namely, himself) is not specifically dealt with - so you have a "grey" area. So there's your real question. Is a spell that moves with the caster controlled?
#8 jindy Apr 15, 2008 18:48:58	Can the Incantatrix steal Mage Armor? Seems to me that's the same thing as stealing the veil (getting past the Veil is a "warding", not a spell)? Seems to me the answer is no. Mage Armor is cast on a person (the Wizard) and moves only because the Wizard moves. So, it's basically like acid fog, which moves because the wind moves it. The bubble or area (both move, per the text of the ward ability) move with the Wizard, and are centered on the wizard. So, they only move if the Wizard physically moves. The Wizard can try to move them all day with his mind and get no where. That's not controlling it. Likewise, anyone who crosses a veil takes damage. The Wizard doesn't control this either. If a cleric tries to touch the wizard through the veil, the cleric takes the appropriate damage. If a Troll tries to beat up the Wizard, the troll takes damage. This is automatic, and outside of the Wizard's control.
#9 Omen_of_Peace Apr 15, 2008 21:31:48	Sigh... Whether the IotSV's veil's are spells isn't the point. While I agree with the rest of your argument, this is very much relevant. The veils are not spells, they can't be stolen. End of discussion. :P (Arguably, people can quote "Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name." ; then we go on to your arguments.)