Ever since the release of Magic of Incarnum I have seen post after post where people say that the Incarnate is “weak” or that “it needs more skill points” or that it “can’t hold it’s own in melee” or that it was “only good as a dip class.”
My initial impression was actually somewhat similar. The class looked woefully underpowered at first glance. Yet a closer analysis gave me an entirely different perspective. What I did was break down what the class could and could not do mathematically by level. In general what I found was:
* The Incarnate can compete with the Rogue skill wise & has trapfinding.
* The Incarnate can be more durable in combat than a Fighter.
* Depending on alignment, the Incarnate can hold his own in melee or ranged combat.
* The Incarnate is nearly as good at single target blasting as a Warlock.
* The pure Incarnate is one of the most versatile classes in the game, having access to soulmelds that enhance mobility, resistances, and more ... all in addition to what was mentioned above.
That doesn’t seem weak at all to me. ;)
However I think that it also helps to keep in mind what the Incarnate isn’t. With a title like Magic of Incarnum many folks expected the Incarnate to be able to fill the role that an arcane or divine caster does. He can’t.
* The Incarnate is a reasonable secondary healer but cannot match any existing healing class.
* The Incarnate has limited ability to buff others.
* The Incarnate cannot be a true blaster as he lacks the ability to affect multiple targets.
* The Incarnate cannot duplicate most spells.
What follows is some analysis and charts built using excel to back up some of these assertions.
Note: This is second version of this thread. I’ve rewritten much the first few posts as I found that I had an unfortunate tendency to repeat myself and that my writing was a bit less polished than I like.
The Incarnate as a Skill Monkey
Incarnate vs Rogue
More so than any other MoI class the Incarnate can shape a huge number of soulmelds that boost skills. It’s also interesting to note that, unlike the Totemist soulmelds, the Incarnate melds grant Insight bonuses in most cases so they will stack with items which grant Competence bonuses. Further the Incarnate can emulate things like Trapfinding via soulmelds further suggesting that this is a role that they might be able to fill.
Many Soulmelds grant either +2 or +4 to anywhere from 1 to 3 skills without needing to be bound to a chakra. This increases by +2 per essentia invested. In the chart below I’ve compared what a character who has maxed out a given skill could do vs what an Incarnate can do to a single skill with a +2 base soulmeld. I’ve shown the difference between the maxed out ranks & the soulmeld to show how many actual skill ranks an Incarnate would need to be able to perform at the same level.
In the table:
Level = levels in the Incarnate class.
Skill Ranks = the number of max class ranks possible
Meld Bonus = the bonus to a skill granted by a soulmeld.
Ranks Needed = how many ranks the Incarnate would need to actually have to match the maxed out skill.
Sooner or later in DnD it always comes to this, right?
In any event the Incarnate is billed as a melee capable character in the favor text. The poor BAB & d6 HP would seem to argue against it but there are various soulmelds and class features that can help.
Increasing to-hit:
* Bloodwar Gauntlets (Evil) – Moral bonus (melee only)
* Incarnate Avatar (Chaos) – Insight bonus (ranged only)
* Incarnate Avatar (Law) – Insight bonus (melee only)
* Incarnate Weapon (all) – Enhancement bonus (melee only)
* Necrocarnum Shroud (Evil) – Profane
* Incarnum Radiance (Law) – Unnamed bonus (melee only)
Increasing damage:
* Apparition Ribbon (all) – Insight bonus (vs. Incorporeal only)
* Bloodwar Gauntlets (Evil) – Moral bonus (melee only)
* Bluesteel Gauntlets (all) – Insight bonus
* Incarnate Avatar (Evil) – Insight bonus (melee only)
* Incarnate Weapon (all) – Enhancement bonus (melee only)
* Necrocarnum Shroud - Profane
* Necrocarnum Weapon (Evil) – Profane
* Riding Bracers (all) – Insight bonus (when mounted only)
* Sighting Gauntlets (all) – Insight bonus (ranged weapons only)
* Incarnum Radiance (Evil) – Unnamed bonus (melee only)
Increasing AC:
* Armguards of Disruption (all) – Insight bonus (vs. Undead only)
* Astral Vambraces (all) – Deflection bonus
* Crystal Helm (all) – Deflection bonus
* Incarnate Avatar (Good) – Insight bonus
* Lammasu Mantle (Good) – Deflection bonus (vs. Evil only)
* Riding Bracers (all) – Insight bonus (when mounted only)
* Incarnum Radiance (Good) – Unnamed bonus
Increasing HP:
* Astral Vambraces (all)
* Necrocarnum Vestment (evil)
* Vitality Belt (all)
Soulmelds that do damage directly:
* Armguards of Disruption (all) – Disruption (vs. Undead only)
* Dissolving Spittle (all) – Acid ranged touch attack
* Dragon Tail (all) - Tail natural melee attack
* Flame Cincture (all) – Fire ranged touch attack (must absorb fire first)
* Incarnate Weapon (all) - Weapon melee attack
* Lighting Gauntlets (all) – Electrical melee touch *or* adds to melee
* Mantle of Flame (all) – Fire damage to adjacent attackers
* Necrocarnum Shroud (Evil) – Negative levels by touch attack
* Necrocarnum Touch (Evil) – Profane melee or ranged touch
Emulate Feats:
* Astral Vambraces (all) – Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Mobility, Power Attack, or Trip (if you have an existing slam attack).
* Sighting Gloves (all) – Precise Shot
* Wind Cloak – Deflect Arrows
Other Defenses:
* Adamant Pauldrons (all) – Negate Crits or Sneak Attack
* Astral Vambraces (all) – DR (magic) & Energy Resistance
* Enigma Helm (all) – SR vs Divinatioin & Immunity to Charm
* Fellmist Robe (all) – Concealment
* Impulse Boots (all) – Evasion & Uncanny Dodge
* Necrocarnum Vestment (Evil) – Cold Resistance & Immune to stunning and death effects or Immunity to Disease.
* Pauldrons of Health (all) – Immunity to being sickened or nauseated & energy drain.
* Planar Chasuble (all) – Energy Resistance
* Planar Ward (all) – Blocks possession, enchantment, & compusion
* Spellward Shirt (all) – SR
* Strongheart Vest (all) – Immunity to Energy drain and death effects.
* Wind Cloak (all) – DR (magic) vs ranged weapons
It’s very apparent just from this list that that Law Incarnates have the most things stacking to increase to-hit followed very closely by Evil. Evil Incarnates have the most stacking damage boosters by far. Good Incarnates have the most stacking AC boosts. Chaos Incarnate can boost ranged weapons, both to-hit and damage, better than any of the others.
However not all of these soulmelds can or will be shaped at the same time. In addition to the limits on soulmelds shaped by level several of these occupy the same Chakra locations ... though the Double Chakra feat taken at 9th level helps somewhat, allowing two soulmelds to be shaped and bound to the same location.
Essentia can be a problem too. Having 9 combat melds at 20th level is nice, but the Incarnate is likely to only be able to fully power 3 or 4 of them.
Melee Combat
An Evil Incarnate might shape his Incarnate Avatar and his Incarnate Weapon at first level. He would add Necrocarnum Weapon & get his Incarnum Radiance at 3rd level, however he would not be able to power all three fully until later levels. At 9th level he might spend a feat to allow double Chakra binds on the Arms and shape both Bloodwar Gauntlets and his Incarnate Weapon.
A Law Incarnate might shape the Incarnate Avatar and Weapon at first level too. However he has no match for the Necrocarnum Weapon. At 9th level he would add Bluesteel Bracers using the same double Chakra bind feat.
This is what their bonuses would look like by level:
To Hit = Bonus to hit (not incuding BAB)
Damage = Bonus to damage (not including anything else)
IB = Item Bonus from an Incarnum Focus for the arms.
FB = Feat Bonus if the character took Expanded Essentia Capacity.
Party Buffer
Lots of parties look to their Bards, Clerics, and Arcane types for buffing of one sort or another. From Bardic music to spells like Cat’s Grace buffing is a staple need of every party. Many of the Incarnate’s soulmelds and class abilities can be used to make others around them better suggesting that they might be able to fill this party role.
Starting at Incarnate 7 the Incarnate’s Incarnum Radiance class ability can be shared with nearby allies. Allies of the Law Incarnate & Evil Incarnate will appreciate getting up to +5 to hit or +10 to damage via unnamed bonus. The Good Incarnate’s bonus of +5 to AC is nice. The Chaos Incarnate’s bonus of +50’ to movement will be a boon for any party with slow members like the typical melee dwarf ... though it is unclear to me what happens to the bonus movement if the party member actually moves out of range. The Law & Evil effects compare reasonably with the Bard’s Inspire Courage though they are more focused and useable many fewer times per day.
Many soulmelds also produce effects useable by others. Luck Dice can be like a limited use at will bless spell. Bluesteel bracers can provide +2 to initiative to allies as a constant effect. Lammasu Mantle (good only) can grant a +2 deflection bonus to AC. However this is about it.
Clearly, even though these soulmelds are all constant or at will effects, there is no comparison to most standard buff spells or even close to what a good buff focused build can do. Still the soulmeld bonuses and Incarnum Radiance are nice and I would say that the Incarnate could function as a secondary buffer ... especially if they focus on UMD and have some scrolls or wands that can aid in this regard.
Marshal is an interesting choice for dip if the character is looking at being good at buffing. A Marshal 1 / Incarnate 19 would have more skills, better proficiencies, and a single Marshal Aura to add to his Incarnate stuff. Similarly a Bard 16 / Incarnate 4 or Wizard 3 / Incarnate 2 / Soulcaster 10 / War Weaver 5 could be a very good buffer having both “always on” buffs and situational spells.
Party Healer
A primary healer the Incarnate isn’t, however he can be a surprisingly effective secondary healer. Two soulmelds in particular boost healing. Lifebond Vestments allow the Incarnate to transfer wounds from allies to themselves, reducing the damage in the process, and the Therapeutic Mantle boosts all healing magic used on the Incarnate. When used together they can produce solidly effective out of combat healing.
Via UMD or a one level dip a class like Ranger, Cleric, Druid, or Bard the Incarnate can use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds on himself.
The table below shows how much damage an Incarnate can heal via the Lifebond Vestment & how much of a bonus the Incarnate gets to a single CLW spell used on himself.
Take the Bonus Essentia feat & take it at 6th level if you can. The Incarnate desperately needs essentia to be effective.
On the other hand I would tend to avoid many of the other Incarnum feats in a pure Incarnate build. The +1 essentia is very nice however Incarnum feats must have essentia put into them first thing in the morning and keep it stuck there for 24 hours. In most cases I would think that the flexibility offered by soulmelds would be better than essentia stuck into a static feat.
Double Chakra is nice on some builds. Skill based builds will benefit from Double Chakra (brow) since so many skilled melds use it. Combat builds may look at Double Chakra (arms).
Split Chakra is needed to use magic items on slots that have bound melds. I personally like Split Chakra (throat) if you are using Dissolving Spittle. If you are a trapfinder Incarnate you will benefit from Split Chakra (hands) as your Theft Gloves will always be bound. Split Chakra (soul) is manditory if you want to bind anything to your soul chakra and still wear armor.
Shape Soulmeld is a really nice way to pick up some Totemist or Soulborn melds. Worg Pelt has been mentioned as a Totemist candidate but Totem Avatar, Blink Shirt, and Winter Mask are all very nice as well. For tripping builds Mauling Gauntlets rule. Hunter’s Circlet is nice if you want to add healing & survival to a skill emulation build.
It’s discussed in more detail in posts further down in the thread but the Shape Soulmeld feat should allow you to shape the soulmeld selected + any you gain by Incarnate class levels. Additionally you can bind a meld gained this way using your Incarnate chakra binds.
*More Later*
Great job man. This is what the "Incarnates with Class" article should have been.Bravo, Todd.
Skillful Weapon or other regular BAB booster
The major obvious problem with this is that you can't use a skillfull weapon whilst your hands have chakra binded to them...
How about multiclassing for a better BaB? cleric4/incarnate6 followed by the theurge style prc results in decent chakra related powers aswell as the ability to casts persistant divine might...
I also believe the melee builds to benefit hugely from the VoP as you can then get enhancement aswell as profane/compotence/luck/etc. bonuses to attack/damage.
Hmm.
Incarnate 20:
Con 14 + 5 level + 5 tome + 6 amulet = 30 (+10)
Soulmelds: Vitality belt (8 essentia using Expanded Soulmeld Capacity and Incarnum Belt)
HP: 20d6 + 20 * 10 + 20 * 8 = 412 hp
The major obvious problem with this is that you can't use a skillfull weapon whilst your hands have chakra binded to them...
This isn’t quite true Khazra. Weapons don’t normally take up item slots so they can be used even if the hands and arms have soulmelds bound.
There are a couple of exceptions to this though.
The Incarnum Weapon soulmeld takes up the Arm Chakra ... however you don’t need to bind it thus, in theory, you could use a magic bracelet and have an Incarnum Weapon shaped. I’ve pointed this out elsewhere too but things get really messy by RAW if when you start looking at what happens when you shape an Incarnum Weapon on an arm where you already hold a real weapon. But that’s for the tricks thread I would think....
Also a normal magic weapon can be bound to a Chakra if one has the right feat ... but again this isn’t manidtory.
How about multiclassing for a better BaB? cleric4/incarnate6 followed by the theurge style prc results in decent chakra related powers aswell as the ability to casts persistant divine might...
I agree 100% about the Law Incarnate / Cleric ... it’s a monster with the right buffs.
I also believe the melee builds to benefit hugely from the VoP as you can then get enhancement aswell as profane/compotence/luck/etc. bonuses to attack/damage.
I’m beginning to think that one reason that Good Incarnates have no real match for Necrocarnum is VoP. Just about the only thing that doesn’t stack is the weapon Enhancement bonuses from VoP.
Another good reason why the incarnate makes a good tank is because he needs to pump Con anyway, so he gets a huge number of HP.
HP: 20d6 + 20 * 10 + 20 * 8 = 412 hp
Great point! I’m going to have to add something like this. However how did you get 52 HP out of 20d6?
Awesome stuff... especially the soulmeld lists on the combat section. Perhaps you could include one for the skills section? Eitherway, I'm going to steal those lists and add them to my "useful soulmelds collection" in my Incarnum Tricks/Builds/Combos thread. Due credit will be given, of course.
Thanks! Feel free to do as you want with the listings. Your thread was one of my first inspirations to write this.
The skill section does list some soulmelds there, but it is pretty bumpy compared to what I did in the combat post. I’ll work to clean that up tonight.
Great point! I’m going to have to add something like this. However how did you get 52 HP out of 20d6?
Because I'm an idiot who tried to do everything mentally. :{
Are you going to do others for Soulborns and Totemists?
Zemyla, I've been there! ;) For this post though I rotted my brain and did all the number crunching in Excel. I have been assimilated.... :D
Are you going to do others for Soulborns and Totemists?
Thanks Zaxter! I don't have plans for doing more right now. There have been a lot of posts about the Totemist already & I think that it's a little clearer how they can be melee powerhouses or breath weapon blasters. I've been suprised at how little love the Soulborn has gotten here. IMO they are a solid class. Maybe I'll have to give that a go at some point. Still I've foucused much more on the Incarnate for now.
Your Skillmeld section will now be added as well. Good work.
IMO evil and chaotic Incarnates makes the most dangerous hit and run characters ever.
I mean, if I made a evil Incarnate into a flyer with airstep sandals and perhaps adding lightning gauntlets you can make some really nasty flyby attacks.
I also played a level 20 Chaotic Incarnate a while back. He somehow ended up in a one on one duel. The thing was that my ground speed was about 100 ft faster than the paladin and I had spring attack. when he was half dead I lured him into a trap by ending my round within 40 ft from him and readying my attack against his charge. The end result was pretty much Paladin on pike. My point is that Chos and speed should not be neglegted, I am not saying that you are complaining Todd but most other complain.
Btw, Todd, I can't make any sense about the part you wrote about the forge master. Don't you mean +12 bab or am I missing something?
Once again, Thank you for a job well done. :D
My point is that Chos and speed should not be neglegted, I am not saying that you are complaining Todd but most other complain.
I didn't talk about speed much since it seems pretty straight forward to me. All Incarnates can have serious movement if they want it ... though the Chaos Incarnate is going to outdo all the others. ;)
I was kind of alluding to that when I mentioned that I thought that they made great chargers. I also consider mobility to be a great thing for any archer build. Full attack - fall back with single shot - full attack - fall back with single shot - etc. With the stuff a chaos incarnate can do he might never be touched.
It's not that I don't like this ... heck I'm going to be running an Incarnate archer build in a few weeks ... it's just that the number support the melee Incarnates a bit better IMO.
Btw, Todd, I can't make any sense about the part you wrote about the forge master. Don't you mean +12 bab or am I missing something?
For example a:
Ranger 3 / Fighter 1 / Law Incarnate 1 / Ironsoul Forgemaster 10 / Deepwarden 4
would have:
BAB 16
Meldshaper Level 12 (for essentia pool, max soulmelds shaped, etc.)
.... you know I just did that off the top of my head ... but I kind of like it. Con to AC, huge to hit bonuses, strong skills. That would be a fun build to play.
I didn't talk about speed much since it seems pretty straight forward to me. All Incarnates can have serious movement if they want it ... though the Chaos Incarnate is going to outdo all the others. ;)
I was kind of alluding to that when I mentioned that I thought that they made great chargers. I also consider mobility to be a great thing for any archer build. Full attack - fall back with single shot - full attack - fall back with single shot - etc. With the stuff a chaos incarnate can do he might never be touched.
It's not that I don't like this ... heck I'm going to be running an Incarnate archer build in a few weeks ... it's just that the number support the melee Incarnates a bit better IMO.
For example a:
Ranger 3 / Fighter 1 / Law Incarnate 1 / Ironsoul Forgemaster 10 / Deepwarden 4
would have:
BAB 16
Meldshaper Level 12 (for essentia pool, max soulmelds shaped, etc.)
.... you know I just did that off the top of my head ... but I kind of like it. Con to AC, huge to hit bonuses, strong skills. That would be a fun build to play.
But still with a maximum equal to Dex maximum for the armor, but since Incarnum is all about con.( and wis.) it would be a better stat than dex.
Otherwise, this is a by far a greater guide than that WoTC published the other day. Great job, Todd. :D
Cheers
klode_me
It occurred to me to calculate how many total skill point an Incarnate could emulate via Soulmelds ... and how that would compare to a Rogue's total skill points.
If the Incarnate shapes, Acrobat Boots, Mage’s Spectacles, Silvertongue Mask, Theft Gloves, and Truthseeker Goggles at 20th level and allocates 6 essentia to each (without feats he is a few points shy of this naturally) ... he will have gained 216 ranks.
Compare that to the Rogue’s 184 skill points before Int or race.
So the Incarnate can have 216 skill points from soulmelds plus whatever he has from class levels.
I think that over 250 skill points before adding Int qualifies as a viable skill class.
Lastly, anyone think its worth taking 2 levels of a full BaB to get a 3rd attack with your incarnate? I was thinking either soulborn 2 (for some essentia?) or playing a changeling and taking warshaper 2 (stat increases)? ANyone else think thats worth it at all?
I still don't see how an Incarnate can match the core base characters who are melee centric (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Monk). Can you show maybe some sample builds? Maybe up to 5th level? What feats would you pick? Where would you place your attribute points? What soulmelds would you take if we assume your "standard" adventure day will be a mix of social situations and a couple combats thrown in? I'd like to see some real numbers if possible.
I don't have time to work up a build myself, but here's a build Merricb put together over on the Incarnum FAQ thread.
LN Azurin Incarnate 20
Medium Outsider (Incarnum; Law)
Init +6; Senses: Spot +4, Listen +4
---
AC 43, touch 18, flat-footed 40
hp 152 (20 HD)
Resist Fire 10
Immune daze, paralysis, petrification, stun and slow
Fort +25, Ref +16, Will +21
--
Speed 20 ft (4 squares) or fly 10 ft (2 squares)
Melee +8 longsword +39/+34 (1d8+22 plus 8d6 electricity on first attack, lawful-aligned) or
Melee lightning gauntlets +30 touch (8d6 electricity)
Base Atk +10; Grp +17
Special Actions: Incarnum Radiance (in effect) +6 melee attack to all Lawful-aligned allies and self, lasts 11 rounds, 4/day; Perfect Meldshaper (1/day, for 7 rounds, max essentia in each soulmeld).
--
Soulmelds: Essentia 30; Capacity 6, 9 soulmelds, 5 binds
* Airstep Sandals 0 (feet, bound)
* Bluesteel Bracers 7 (arms): +2 init; +7 insight to melee weapon damage
* Incarnate Avatar 7 (soul, bound) +7 insight to melee attack
* Incarnate Weapon 8 (arms) +8 weapon, lawful-aligned
* Lightning Gauntlets 7 (hands, bound) 8d6 elect touch, or +8d6 elect to first melee weapon attack
* Lifebond Vestments 0 (heart, bound) heal others
* Mantle of Flame 1 (shoulders) 2d6 fire damage to all striking
* Planar Chausible 0 (brow, bound) resist fire 10; increase inc. radiance 1
* Vitality Belt 0 (waist) +20 hp per essentia; +4 morale bonus on Con checks
--
Str 24, Dex 19, Con 26, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 13
Possessions: Combat Gear plus Belt of Magnificence +6 (MHb); Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 (used); bracers of Incarnum Focus; gauntlets of Incarnum Focus; +5 mithral platemail; +5 hvy shield; +5 ring of protection; +5 amulet of natural armour; +5 cloak of resistance; 225,000 gp in extra equipment
Feats: Bonus Essentia; Double Chakra (arms); Expanded Soulmeld Capacity x3; Healing Soul; Split Chakra (soul); Weapon Focus (longsword)
Skills: Concentration +35; Knowledge (the planes) +26.
A little rough, but you get the idea. Note that all Lawful allies of the Incarnate are also getting a +6 untyped bonus to melee attacks!
CN Azurin Incarnate 20
Ranged: +5 Composite Longbow +30/+25 (1d8+17) or
Ranged: +5 Composite Longbow +28/+28/+23 (1d8+17), rapid shot or
Ranged: Dissolving Spittle +26 touch (8d6 acid + one extra round)
Spd: 80 ft
Str 16, Dex 24, Con 26
Items: Belt of Magnificence +6, Shirt of Incarnum Focus; Gloves of Incarnum Focus; manual of dexterity +4
Soulmelds: Dissolving Spittle, Incarnate Avatar, Sighting Gloves, Keeneye Lenses (bound to soul!), Spellward Shirt
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Extra Soulmeld Capacity x2, Bonus Essentia, Double Chakra (soul), Weapon Focus (bow)
NG Azurin Incarnate 20
Melee: Lightning Gauntlets +14 touch (8d6 electricity)
Ranged: Dissolving Spittle +16 touch (8d6 acid + one extra round)
AC: 56. (+7 shield, +3 Dex, +13 armour, +5 deflection, +5 natural armour, +6 aura, +7 insight)
Items: +5 mithral full plate, belt of magnificence +6, +5 hvy shield, +5 ring of protection, +5 amulet of natural armour
Soulmelds: Incarnate Avatar, Dissolving Spittle, Lightning Gauntlets
NE Azurin Incarnate 20
Melee: +8 flail +27/+22 (1d8+43, plus 8d6 electricity on first attack; +7 to confirm criticals; evil)
Soulmelds: Incarnate Avatar, Lightning Gauntlets (hands), Incarnate Weapon (arms), Bloodwar Gauntlets (arms), Necrocarnate Weapon (hands)
Feats: Double Chakra (hands), Extra Soulmeld Capacity x3, Weapon Focus (Flail), Double Chakra (arms)
Str 24, Dex 20, Con 26
Items: Gauntlets of Incarnum focus,
Bloodwar gauntlets: +1 morale to attack, +7 morale to melee damage and rolls to confirm criticals
Incarnate avatar: +14 insight to melee damage
Necrocarnate Weapon: +8 profane to melee damage
Lastly, anyone think its worth taking 2 levels of a full BaB to get a 3rd attack with your incarnate? I was thinking either soulborn 2 (for some essentia?) or playing a changeling and taking warshaper 2 (stat increases)? ANyone else think thats worth it at all?
Alignment considerations make soulborn impossible, and warshaper isn't full bab.
Khazra, Antendren is correct about the alignment problem with Soulborn. I've seen dips suggested into Totemist though that wouldn't help your BAB issue. I like Warshaper in general, but personally think that it would be better for a Totemist build rather than an Incarnate one.
I like Ironsoul Forgemaster generally but it seems to me that you have to use is as a replacement for Incarnate levels ... once you go into this PrC you will not return. It just doesn’t make sense to. And once you finish the PrC then it would seem to make more sense to go into another melee class so as not to loose more BAB. What you end up with is a melee build that can do some nice incarnum tricks. I like the build I posted above. I like finishing with Battlesmith for an item building powerhouse. War Mind is a good finish too.
A lot of the other PrCs seem that way to me too. You are usually better off using incarnate + a PrC to enhance the rest of the build rather than building up the Incarnate. Oddly we have a class that seems to do best as a dip or in sticking with it.
In building the Ranger 2 / Incarnate 4 that I'm going to play next week I immediately noticed the delayed progression of abilities in the 20 level plan. It reminded me a lot of how caster builds look when you take another class first. Every time you level up you can't help but to think something like: "If I were a pure X, then I could be doing Y."
If you aren't using Incarnate as a focused dip then your build is going to really rely on those soulmelds and the progression.
FlimFlam, I don’t have time to work up 4+ builds off the top of my head ... but I’m not sure that we have to. One reason I put all those tables up there was so that you could see for yourself.
At 5th level both the Incarnate and all the melee classes are only going to have one attack. With a +1 weapon most of them will be doing +6 to-hit / +1 damage before Str and whatnot. The Evil Incarnate will be +4 / +12 if he sticks with his Incarnate Weapon ... or +5 / +13 if he uses a +1 weapon and the Bloodwar Gauntlets instead. Those number did include the Incarnum Radiance which is only useable once per day at that level but even if you take it out we are still taking +5 hit / +9 dmg for the Incarnate vs. +6 / +1 for the fighter. Yes the fighter will probably have higher Str but not by much an Evil Incarnate will likely fund Con, Str, Wis in pretty much that order where the fighter is going Str, Con.
The Incarnate will have a few less HP naturally, but Vitality Belt makes the Fighter and the Incarnate even at 5th level as shown above. An Evil Incarnate will likely have spent his 1st & 3rd level on the same sorts of melee things that fighters would ranging from Power Attack to Improved Trip. The raw number of feats will go the fighter’s way. HP & Rage go to the Barbarian. AC will probably go the Incarnate’s way if he wants to sacrifice a bit of damage output. I haven’t really shown this but he essentially has access to the equivalent of a +2 ring of protection via Crystal Helm.
It’s at 6th level that things get complicated. The Fighters and whatnot will have their second melee attack & all get a feat or two. The Incarnate will almost certainly spend his feat on Bonus Essentia and will not be getting a second attack. However he gets’s a pretty big boost to damage. So the fighter is looking at +7 / +2 to hit & +2 damage while the Incarnate is still just getting one attack at +6 to-hit ... however that one attack is +12 damage before Str & Incarnum Radiance if it lands....
Like I said the Incarnate isn’t going to be doing battlefield control like the fighter can. He doesn’t have the feats. But he can easily survive melee and can get in some very good whacks.
You will notice the lack of any Hide / Move Silently bonuses. If you want this in your build you will probably either need to multiclass or spend a feat on Shape Soulmeld to pick one of the Totemist melds. I personally suggest Worg Pelt for this.
No love for Kruthik Claws? It gives you a +4 to Hide/Move Silently, better than the Worg Pelt's +2, and can be bound to hands or shoulders instead of the Pelt's hands and feet. The important thing is the shoulders, since if you're the skill monkey, you want hands free for Theft Gloves and your feet from for Acrobat Boots. There aren't any skillmelds for the incarnates shoulders, and the big bad meld, Mantle of Flame, is kinda counterproductive if you want to hide...exactly how does a dude on fire hide in a dark alley? :D
I've always viewed the incarnate as being a scout who can take tons of punishment. An chaos incarnate with Crystal Helm, Impulse Boots(b), Theft Gloves(b), Bluesteel Bracers, Keeneyes Lenses(b), Dissolving Spittle(b), Vitality Belt(b), Spellward Shirt, Fellmist Robe makes a great scout...good AC, an initiative bonus, fantastic HP, constant trueseeing, SR, miss chance against ranged/reach, trapfinding, evasion, uncanny dodge, immune to Con drain and damage, bonus to will and reflex saves and a nasty acid attack...really, what the hell is going to surprise this guy? Give him a shield with the deathward ability and it starts taking a ridiculous amount of effort to kill the guy.
No love for Kruthik Claws? It gives you a +4 to Hide/Move Silently, better than the Worg Pelt's +2, and can be bound to hands or shoulders instead of the Pelt's hands and feet. The important thing is the shoulders, since if you're the skill monkey, you want hands free for Theft Gloves and your feet from for Acrobat Boots. There aren't any skillmelds for the incarnates shoulders, and the big bad meld, Mantle of Flame, is kinda counterproductive if you want to hide...exactly how does a dude on fire hide in a dark alley? :D
I wondered if someone was going to bust out Kruthik Claws on me. ;)
I’ll be honest, I considered them. I just liked the Worg Pelt better. Part of it has to do with secondary effects. Kruthik Claws give very little benefit if bound. That, in and of itself, isn’t a huge issue ... but if I’m blowing a feat on something I want to get the most bang that I can for the cost. Thw Worg Pelt on the other hand gives a nice boost to speed when bound to the feet. If a feat is spent on them they can be used as a sneak booster and a replacement for something like Cerulean Sandals.
The Shoulder bind is also something of a minor problem for me. In a stealth / movement focused build then it’s probably a solid choice. But in a build that tries to be a generalist it’s a bit less so. I really like Therapeutic Mantle on any build that tries to heal. Mantle of Flame, Lammasu Mantle, and a few other interesting melds also use the shoulders. Unlike the Worg Pelt, Kruthik Claws aren’t going to mimic any of these.
I can see good arguments either way but I still like Worg Pelt.
I've always viewed the incarnate as being a scout who can take tons of punishment. An chaos incarnate with Crystal Helm, Impulse Boots(b), Theft Gloves(b), Bluesteel Bracers, Keeneyes Lenses(b), Dissolving Spittle(b), Vitality Belt(b), Spellward Shirt, Fellmist Robe makes a great scout...good AC, an initiative bonus, fantastic HP, constant trueseeing, SR, miss chance against ranged/reach, trapfinding, evasion, uncanny dodge, immune to Con drain and damage, bonus to will and reflex saves and a nasty acid attack...really, what the hell is going to surprise this guy? Give him a shield with the deathward ability and it starts taking a ridiculous amount of effort to kill the guy.
Your build has no sneak. When I think scout I want a character with reasonable hide & move silently. Your meld selection doesn’t do that.
I also see mobility as being a minor problem for your suggestion. Chaos Incarnate gets mobility via a bound Incarnate Avatar, it’s Incarnum Radiance, or the usual ways. You didn’t shape the Avatar, instead you have the Keeney Lenses bound to the soul. You didn’t shape Cerulean Sandals, choosing Impulse Boots over them. That means that you are only getting speed boosts via items (if you spent a feat to use items on the feat with a bound soulmeld), party buffs, or the very limited uses of Incarnum Radiance. Non-Chaos Incarnates don’t even get the Radiance boost.
True seeing and some of the other meld combinations you mention are really nice at 20th level ... but a lower level PC is going to have a much harder time pulling all this off.
Your suggestion *is* hard to kill though. ;)
Personally I would probably go for Theft Gloves (bound), Truthseeker Goggles, and the Worg Pelt (bound, if possible) as my “base” for an Incarnate scout. You have trapfinding, sneak, & enhanced movement.
Then I would customize further based on perceived need and my level. If I wanted the rest to be combat oriented then some of the stuff you suggested would be great. If I wanted to be able to talk my way out of problems then Silvertongue Mask would be in the mix. For a backup healer I would add the Lifebond Vestments & Therapeutic Mantle. It would all depend on what I wanted my Incarnate’s party role to be and what I anticipated dealing with.
If you use Kruthik Claws then you will need to either shape the Chaos Incarnate Avatar or the Cerulean Sandals. With a feat you could do both the Impulse Boots and the Sandals too if you really want evasion.
I wondered if someone was going to bust out Kruthik Claws on me. ;)
I’ll be honest, I considered them. I just liked the Worg Pelt better. Part of it has to do with secondary effects. Kruthik Claws give very little benefit if bound. That, in and of itself, isn’t a huge issue ... but if I’m blowing a feat on something I want to get the most bang that I can for the cost. Thw Worg Pelt on the other hand gives a nice boost to speed when bound to the feet. If a feat is spent on them they can be used as a sneak booster and a replacement for something like Cerulean Sandals.
Holy cow, I just reread the Share Soulmeld feat and saw the part about being able to bind the soulmeld to any chakra you can normally. Never noticed that before! Congrats, you just converted me, especially since I tend to think Lammasu Mantle is a lot better than it's given credit for. Worg Pelt for life!
Your build has no sneak. When I think scout I want a character with reasonable hide & move silently. Your meld selection doesn’t do that.
Well, the implication was I was using Kruthik Claws. However, I'm still a nimrod because trapfinding is worthless without search, and I'm using keeneye lenses over truthseeker googles. :embarrass
I also see mobility as being a minor problem for your suggestion. Chaos Incarnate gets mobility via a bound Incarnate Avatar, it’s Incarnum Radiance, or the usual ways. You didn’t shape the Avatar, instead you have the Keeney Lenses bound to the soul. You didn’t shape Cerulean Sandals, choosing Impulse Boots over them. That means that you are only getting speed boosts via items (if you spent a feat to use items on the feat with a bound soulmeld), party buffs, or the very limited uses of Incarnum Radiance. Non-Chaos Incarnates don’t even get the Radiance boost.
Your suggestion *is* hard to kill though. ;)
Of course, outside spitting acidic loogies, he doesn't do much else. ^_^;;;
I'll admit, I've been using the Incarnate as mainly a dip class; a combat class with two, three, four or six levels of Incarnate sees a dramatic increase in flexibility and power, and a Wizard 3/Incarnate 2/SoulCaster 10 gets some great increases in survivability as well as spell DC. The set of melds I threw together above was really off the top of my head, mainly cobbled together from the two PC's I'd played so far, the above Soulcaster and a Fighter/Incarnate/Dervish. I guess my positive input boils down to 'incarnates are great at taking a beating!'
All right, what about taking the afformentioned tactical route? I'm getting a rough idea of ussing Cobalt Expertise and a Skillful Spiked Chain as an evil Incarnate. Essentially, use the chain to disarm and trip, then follow up on your prone opponent with an attack enhanced by Bloodwar Gauntlets and Incarnate Avatar. Heck, since a spiked chain is a two-hander, you could even get in Cobalt Power. You could use Mantle of Flame to make people not want to hit you, or Vitality Belt to increase your staying power. Of course, you'd pretty much need to be human and take some fighter levels to fit in the feets you would need, but...
Now that I know about being able to bind a soulmeld you got with Shape Soulmeld, I'm thinking that you could use Shadow Mantle bound to your shoulders to get a big combat boost; what are all the penalties for attacking and defending against an invisible creature again?
The darkness I’m a bit more iffy about. It’s strong for concealment in combat but it’s not exactly stealthy in some situations. Furthermore it can be negated in ways the Fellmist Robe’s concealment cannot.
Effects of Darkness
- Denies foe within that can’t see the ability to take a 5’ step
- Foe must attack your square not your person without blindsight, etc.
- 50% miss chance for attacks that target your square
I’m totally with you in regards to Incarnate as a dip class. It’s good. Very very good.
I’ve been thinking Warmage 8 / Incarnate 2 / Soulcaster 10 for some time now. The Incarnate soulmelds balance out a lot of the Warmage’s normal weaknesses. He can be skillful, mobile, have good defenses, or whatnot from the melds and still have his spells as a primary attack. I’m starting to think about ways to use the Soulcaster’s added damage alongside the Warmage Edge & the Extra Edge feat. There have got to be some spells that could benefit from all that extra damage.
For your Dervish build Incarnate is good for another reason ... the damage bonus. Dual Weilding works best when you get to add damage and soulmelds like Bloodwar Gauntlets or Bluesteel Bracers could really do a lot of good in that kind of build. Soulborn might be better if you are looking to keep BAB maxed out though.
Tripping is good for Evil Incarnate’s even without a spiked chain. Since their Incarnate Weapon is a fail most of the stuff you mention is applicable whenever they shape that meld even without multiclassing or spending a feat on Exotic WP. Critical feats would be Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, & Combat Reflexes. I agree that you would do best to dip into Fighter if adding more feats that this. Fighter 1 / Incarnate 19 would still get you the Soul Chakra Bind and add an extra feat. Fighter 2 / Incarnate 18 would loose the Soul Chakra but net you a third attack at 20th level. Either way should work IMO.
...exactly how does a dude on fire hide in a dark alley? :D
The same way that a dude who isn't on fire hides, because Mantle of Flame never says that you take penalties to Hide.
The same way that a dude who isn't on fire hides, because Mantle of Flame never says that you take penalties to Hide.
However it does grant "shadowy illumination" in your square. That could be worth a penalty in some situations.
Here's the build that allows exactly that:
Wilder 12
Feats: Earth Sense, Earth Power
Use wild surge to boost ML by 4 and Earth power to boost it by 1 for a total of +5 ML. Now manifest open chakra augmented to 17 pp. Voila, you can open any chakra you like and have decent manifesting abilities. For the low cost of two feats it ain't bad.
Anyways, just something to chew on.
Shadow Mantle is interesting to me for another reason. It boosts listen. That’s the one scouting skill that we haven’t really talked about yet and one that the Incarnate can’t boost normally. On that basis alone it’s not a bad suggestion for a dedicated scout build.
True, I was thinking more of the combat applications for it.
I’m totally with you in regards to Incarnate as a dip class. It’s good. Very very good.
I’ve been thinking Warmage 8 / Incarnate 2 / Soulcaster 10 for some time now. The Incarnate soulmelds balance out a lot of the Warmage’s normal weaknesses. He can be skillful, mobile, have good defenses, or whatnot from the melds and still have his spells as a primary attack. I’m starting to think about ways to use the Soulcaster’s added damage alongside the Warmage Edge & the Extra Edge feat. There have got to be some spells that could benefit from all that extra damage.
For your Dervish build Incarnate is good for another reason ... the damage bonus. Dual Weilding works best when you get to add damage and soulmelds like Bloodwar Gauntlets or Bluesteel Bracers could really do a lot of good in that kind of build. Soulborn might be better if you are looking to keep BAB maxed out though.
I played a Wizard 3/Incarnate 2/Soulcaster 10 in a game, starting at level 6. For a time he lagged behind, but the soulmelds just gave him a ridiculous amount of versatility, and if I used a few divination spells to see what was coming up, selecting soulmelds was easy. If you do ever try out you Warmage Soulcaster, I cannot stress how much Vitality Belt, Fellmist Robe and Impulse Boots will help you out. Also, with Share Soulmeld, your familiar doesn't suck anymore, especially if you're wearing a Vitality Belt and Dissolving Spittle. :D
The Dervish Incarnate was a last second thing; I got Magic of Incarnum as my 4th level neutral good fighter went to 5th. Decided to head for Fighter 4/Incarnate 6/Dervish 10, and though I on got to level 17, it turned out super-spiffy. I never went anywhere without Bluesteel Bracers and Mantle of Flame, and varied my other melds based on what we thought we would be doing that day.
Tripping is good for Evil Incarnate’s even without a spiked chain. Since their Incarnate Weapon is a fail most of the stuff you mention is applicable whenever they shape that meld even without multiclassing or spending a feat on Exotic WP. Critical feats would be Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, & Combat Reflexes. I agree that you would do best to dip into Fighter if adding more feats that this. Fighter 1 / Incarnate 19 would still get you the Soul Chakra Bind and add an extra feat. Fighter 2 / Incarnate 18 would loose the Soul Chakra but net you a third attack at 20th level. Either way should work IMO.
True, but the spiked chain has reach and can be enchanted with the Skillful property, along with any other enchantment, which just seems to outclass the Incarnate Weapon meld, though I might wait to take EWP for the chain until I had enough cash to slap Skillful on it. I might try to right up a mock build for this later on.
...exactly how does a dude on fire hide in a dark alley?
The same way that a dude who isn't on fire hides, because Mantle of Flame never says that you take penalties to Hide.
True, but using just the shadowy illumination Todd mentions, I think a lot of DM's would Rule 0 in a common sense penalty in a lot of situations. It may be fair game on the CharOp boards, but I'd be hard-pressed to find fault with the DM giving NPC's a bonus to their Spot checks to notice a light source emminating from behind an object during anything but broad daylight.
Just a thought. What if you could get the second highest level chakras open by 12th level? What would that affect for an incarnate?
Here's the build that allows exactly that:
Wilder 12
Feats: Earth Sense, Earth Power
Use wild surge to boost ML by 4 and Earth power to boost it by 1 for a total of +5 ML. Now manifest open chakra augmented to 17 pp. Voila, you can open any chakra you like and have decent manifesting abilities. For the low cost of two feats it ain't bad.
Anyways, just something to chew on.
Won't work. Earth Power does not let you break the manifester level cap. It lets you manifest a power you could normally manifest, but you pay one less for it (so in this case you'd spend 11 pp for a 12pp power, with the additional +4ML and +4pp coming from Wild Surge).
WIll work at level 13, though.
Won't work. Earth Power does not let you break the manifester level cap. It lets you manifest a power you could normally manifest, but you pay one less for it (so in this case you'd spend 11 pp for a 12pp power, with the additional +4ML and +4pp coming from Wild Surge).
WIll work at level 13, though.
Never played a Wilder and most of what I know about Incarnum is that since it came out you can take two feats to get evasion, but can you overchannel to pull this off?
With overchannel it may be accomplished no earlier than 15th level which is pretty high up there.
Alternatively, if your DM allows orange ioun stones to work via the clarity rule with ML, then you can get this going a level earlier... at 12th level as originally promised.
I'm not sure I see why the Earth Power trick doesn't work though. Is the power in question a first level power?
Since disarm attempts are based on opposed attack rolls the Law Incarnate should be able to shine at this.
Basic Setup
Class: Incarnate
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, & Cobalt Expertise.
Soulmelds: Incarnate Avatar (Law) & Incarnate Weapon.
Misc: Incarnum Radiance (Law)
At 20th level before Stats & other gear he has +35 to Disarm checks.
More Optimized
Class: Incarnate
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Cobalt Expertise, Improved Essentia Capacity, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Incarnate Avatar), & Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Incarnate Weapon)
Soulmelds: Incarnate Avatar (Law) & Incarnate Weapon.
Equipment: Random "Skillful" weapon in off hand, Incarnum Focus (Arms) & Incarnum Focus (Soul)
Misc: Incarnum Radiance (Law)
At 20th level before Stats & other gear he has +45 to Disarm checks.
Point of Comparison
Class: Fighter
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm
Equipment: +5 one-handed non-light weapon
At 20th level before Stats & other gear he has +29 to Disarm checks.
;)
Must be able to shape 3 soulmelds.
Now with the feat Shape Soulmeld you'll be able to enter this PrC at 4th level instead of 5th.
Now it isn't world shaking awesome, and i might be wrong.
I think that Sapphire Hierarch is an incredible PrC. The one thing to watch out for is that SH doesn’t grant you extra chakra bind locations, even though it does let you bind more soulmelds.
Both Soulcaster and Sapphire Hierarch can be entered with either two levels of Incarnate or one level + a feat. I think that this is by design. It’s really nice to be able to have so much flexibility with so little caster level loss.
I think that Sapphire Hierarch is an incredible PrC. The one thing to watch out for is that SH doesn’t grant you extra chakra bind locations, even though it does let you bind more soulmelds.
Yeah, you're probably right. Thanks for the fast feeback.
A build i've been toying around with:
LN Azurin Incarnate 5/Clr 3/SH 10/Tot 2
Gives you a totem chakra bind on the expense of some spells. The trick lies in the fact that you're not gaining any class abilities at the sixth level of incarnate, and no spells at the fourth level of cleric. And by taking two levels of totemist you're gaining a totem chakra bind, and because of the max essentia is dependant on your character level you could put 7 points into a soulmeld and bind it to your totem chakra for a great boon.
I'd have to think the feats through though. As well as soulmelds.
Also, with Share Soulmeld, your familiar doesn't suck anymore, especially if you're wearing a Vitality Belt and Dissolving Spittle.
How did i not notice how abuseable this is? Im not sure how possible it is but a lawful evil incarnate/wizard/saphire heirach with improved familiar seem like you could make your familiar into a decent secondry combatatant...
How did i not notice how abuseable this is? Im not sure how possible it is but a lawful evil incarnate/wizard/saphire heirach with improved familiar seem like you could make your familiar into a decent secondry combatatant...
Legal alignments for Incarnates are LN, CN, NG, and NE.
For turning the familiar into a melee combatant what about Totemist? They can boost HP and whatnot too. Add the extra natural attacks, HP, AC, and other misc boosts and that should be pretty nice.
The Incarnate, for all its other great qualities, doesn't work well as a stealth character due to the lack of Hide/Move Silently buffs. The totemist, with Kruthik Claws, fares much better. Although an Incarnate can get Kruthik Claws through the Shape Soulmeld feat, their maximum bonus is limited - it doesn't benefit from the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity class feature.
Cheers!
Share Soulmeld is a problem. I'm very unsure of its balance.
The “optimized” use of Share Soulmeld might be too much for some group ... that being on a character with multiple familiar / companions ... which is possible by mutilclassing or using Dragon mag feats as I recall. Having a bunch of spit going on in one round is pretty intense. However I’m not seeing the issue if you just have one familiar or companion.
The Incarnate, for all its other great qualities, doesn't work well as a stealth character due to the lack of Hide/Move Silently buffs. The totemist, with Kruthik Claws, fares much better. Although an Incarnate can get Kruthik Claws through the Shape Soulmeld feat, their maximum bonus is limited - it doesn't benefit from the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity class feature.
I’ll agree with the Incarnate not being not being good at stealth by default. However what makes you think that the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity class feature wouldn’t work? The RAW states that it works on any shaped soulmelds. It says nothing about “Incarnate” soulmelds ... just any soulmelds shaped. Further while the text says that it does not allow extra essentia directly on feats, it does not exclude soulmelds gained via feats. I see no RAW that would disallow soulmelds gained by feat to fail to benefit from the Incarnate’s Expanded Soulmeld Capacity.
I still like Worg Pelt better than Kruthik Claws for the Incarnate though. ;)
Class abilities that improve your soulmeld capacity apply only to soulmelds you shape from that class's list.
I hate to rain on your parade Todd, but incarnate's expanded soulmeld capacity does not affect any soulmelds that are not on the incarnate list. See page 20 multiclassing meldshapers.
And that's 100% true for a multiclass meldshaper. A Totemist 2 / Incarnate 18 could not put 6 essentia into any melds he shaped using his totemist levels. He would still be limited to 4 (or 5 if Totem bound) for them.
The Shape Soulmeld feat is not necessarily covered by mulitclassing rules.
As I see it you have two options.
1. Say that Shape Soulmeld is covered by the mulitclassing rules, in which case the essentia cap is set to the base of you level and not increased by the Expanded Essentia Capacity class ability. Additionally soulmelds gained by this feat could not ever be bound. However this also means that the feat isn’t covered by the class rules governing how many melds a character can shape. Each time he takes this feat he can shape an additional Soulmeld above and beyond what is indicated on his class chart. This could easily lead to pure class Incarnates being able to shape 13 or more Soulmelds by level 20. Or imagine the power boost for a human Incarnate who can shape 4 soulmelds at first level instead of just 2. Heck you could even take this feat for soulmelds ALREADY on your list and get the best of both worlds. You could shape more soulmelds and get all the perks of binding and essentia boost by RAW since they are "on your list." It would give an only slightly lesser benifit than the Epic feat Bonus Soulmeld.
2. Say that Shape Soulmeld is not covered by the multiclassing rules. This would mean that non-meldshapers get to create one soulmeld if they take the feat. Meldshapers who took it would have still abide by the limit on how many melds they can shape but could use their class abilities to bind the soulmeld and increase it’s essentia capacity. Essentially the feat would work much the way the Expanded Knowledge psionic feat does and be seen as “adding” the new soulmeld to the character’s class list, though the melds gained would always be easier to unshape or supress.
With all that said, have I mentioned that I don’t like the mechanics of the Shape Soulmeld feat? I don’t like non-meldshapers having access to shaping soulmelds. I don’t like it that the feat’s meldshaper level is flat out half the character level even if he already has a meldshaper level that is higher or lower.
Before I started posting this I was leaning towards option 2. Now I’m starting to think that option 1 is closer to RAW. Both lead to somewhat silly things ... though #1 more so than #2 IMO. Anyway, Sigh.
And that's 100% true for a multiclass meldshaper. A Totemist 2 / Incarnate 18 could not put 6 essentia into any melds he shaped using his totemist levels. He would still be limited to 4 (or 5 if Totem bound) for them.
Isn't essentia capacity governed by character level. Or am i totally confused and haven't got a clue of what you're talking about?
And just an idea, but...Incarnate Weapon is probably a viable weapon for enhancement. Putting Skillful on it, if it is possible to do so, does wonders for making a straight-classed Incarnate an actual melee threat. In fact, Skillful is the only thing that makes a melee incarnate viable, honestly. I'm still stumped that the class doesn't have a Med. BAB, and most GM's I've come across houserule them to a Med. BAB.
As for a simple damage build:
PA, Cobalt Power, Double Chakra x2 (Hands and Arms), NE Incarnate 19/Necrocarnate 1, Incarnate Weapon, Bloodwar Gauntlets, Lightning Gauntlets, Necrocarnum Weapon, Incarnate Avatar, and your Aura power.
If you can max them all out at 6 essentia a pop (this isn't counting magic items, obviously), you'll have somewhere around 60-70 damage per swing, before rolling your weapon damage die.
1. Say that Shape Soulmeld is covered by the mulitclassing rules, in which case the essentia cap is set to the base of you level and not increased by the Expanded Essentia Capacity class ability. Additionally soulmelds gained by this feat could not ever be bound. However this also means that the feat isn’t covered by the class rules governing how many melds a character can shape. Each time he takes this feat he can shape an additional Soulmeld above and beyond what is indicated on his class chart. This could easily lead to pure class Incarnates being able to shape 13 or more Soulmelds by level 20. Or imagine the power boost for a human Incarnate who can shape 4 soulmelds at first level instead of just 2. Heck you could even take this feat for soulmelds ALREADY on your list and get the best of both worlds. You could shape more soulmelds and get all the perks of binding and essentia boost by RAW since they are "on your list." It would give an only slightly lesser benifit than the Epic feat Bonus Soulmeld.
This is the correct option, IMO. You can still bind these melds by taking the Open Chakra feats (which work on any soulmeld).
There isn't much of a power boost: Being able to shape 13 soulmelds does not me you have the slots available. You're limited to 9 unless you take the Double Chakra feat (four times for 13 soulmelds!). The true power comes from the essentia investment, which is limited by having no bonuses available to it.
This option also allows the Open Chakra feats to add to your chakra bind limit, which again, I think it the correct ruling.
The epic feats Bonus Soulmeld and Extra Chakra Bind are "obvious" epic feats that actually don't do that much.
It is obvious from the design of MoI that the feats allow non-meldshapers to become meldshapers. By this, the Shape Soulmeld feat *must* allow the capacity to actually meld it!
As a matter of balance, the feats required to gain these extra binds/melds are problematic. An Azurin Incarnate has just 8 feats by 20th level, and spending them on extra binds and melds is rarely a good option.
Cheers!
Note the text for Shape Soulmeld on page 41.
If you have the ability to bind a soulmeld to a chakra, you can bind this soulmeld to any chakra available to you (as long as the soulmeld can be bound to that chakra).
Feats normally override default rules. Page 20 is the default. The text here for this feat would trump said default. For example the Incarnate, with Shape Soulmeld (Worg Pelt) and the ability to bind melds to his feet via his class levels, could shape the Worg Pelt and bind it to his feet chakra ... he would not need the Open Chakra feat to do this.
So based on our discussion here I’m going to modify my stance that I posted above. Here is now I now see the feats and whatnot working:
Shape Soulmeld – This feat allows anyone, meldshaper or not, to shape a single chosen soulmeld. If the character has levels in a meldshaping class he can shape the total number indicated by his class levels *and* the specific meld gained by this feat in addition to that.
So a first level Incarnate with the feat Shape Soulmeld (Worg Pelt) would shape two Incarnate melds of choice and the Worg Pelt as a third one. However he could bind the Worg Pelt to one of the chakra points opened by his Incarnate levels.
If the specific soulmeld chosen for this feat is not on the meldshaper’s class list then any bonuses to essentia limits he gets, like the Incarnate’s Expanded Essentia Capacity class feature, do not apply. However if the soulmeld chosen for the feat is on the character’s class list the class features boosting essentia limits do apply.
Open Chakra – This feat allows anyone, meldshaper or not, to bind either a soulmeld or a magic item to a Chakra point. If the character has levels in a meldshaping class he can bind soulmelds or items up to his normal limit on any chakra points opened by his class plus bind one additional soulmeld or item to the single chakra opened by this feat.
So a 12th level Soulborn can normally shape three soulmelds and bind one of them to his crown, feet, hands. If the Soulborn had Open Lesser Chakra (arms) he could bind two of the soulmelds he shaped, one to his crown, feet, or hands and another to his arms.
I see this as the RAW of the feats and done this way they affect both meldshapers and non-meldshapers just the same. I really struggled with the essentia cap stuff for Shape Soulmeld. On the one had it’s obviously written to be an exception to the “page 20” rule just based on the part about chakra binds. I feel that intent seems to be that it be an exception in regards to the cap stuff too, but, in the absence of specific RAW, I opted for the more conservative interpretation. As I see it, with this, I’m now mostly in agreement with Tleilaxu_Ghola and MerricB on this.
There isn't much of a power boost: Being able to shape 13 soulmelds does not me you have the slots available. You're limited to 9 unless you take the Double Chakra feat (four times for 13 soulmelds!). The true power comes from the essentia investment, which is limited by having no bonuses available to it.
In general you are correct. That’s where I got the number 13 from, four Shape Soulmeld selections and four Double Charka feats. ;)
However I’ll note that there are some soulmelds that give really good stuff with absolutely no essentia investment. The bound Keeneye Lenses or Illusion Veils are good examples. You may not get big skill or save bumps but it takes no essentia to See Invisible or get True Seeing with these. If you shape a number of these “passive” soulmelds then you could do some good stuff IMO.
Further having multiple extra soulmelds shaped at low levels vastly increases flexibility even if they can’t all be powered at once. Instead of just being able to shape two skillful melds or two combat melds a human could potentially shape all four and then be able to take on both in and out of combat duties just fine. He couldn’t have them all powered up, but with the right choices he wouldn’t need to.
I agree that at the higher levels the configuration to shape 13 soulmelds is probably far less than optimal. However at the low levels, with the right choices, the ability to shape extra melds fairly impressive.
Isn't essentia capacity governed by character level. Or am i totally confused and haven't got a clue of what you're talking about?
It is. However both the Totemist and the Incarnate have class abilities that let them exceed the level caps. Further there are feats that do this as well. We have gotten sucked into a debate about the interaction of some of these class abilities and the Shape Soulmeld feat.
However I’ll note that there are some soulmelds that really good stuff with absolutely no essentia investment. The bound Keeneye Lenses or Illusion Veils are good examples. You may not get big skill or save bumps but it takes no essentia to See Invisible or get True Seeing with these. If you shape a number of these “passive” soulmelds then you could do some good stuff IMO.
They are pretty nice, yes.
Mind you, those are brow bind, gained at level 9. If you look at the lower level powers, they're quite analogous to a feat - so you're basically just getting a feat's effect in any case!
Obviously, the Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws feat seems much better over the Stealthy feat, until you realise that the claws bonuses aren't stacking with the cloak and boots of elvenkind!
Further having multiple extra soulmelds shaped at low levels vastly increases flexibility even if they can’t all be powered at once. Instead of just being able to shape two skillful melds or two combat melds a human could potentially shape all four and then be able to take on both in and out of combat duties just fine. He couldn’t have them all powered up, but with the right choices he wouldn’t need to.
That's the more interesting option: you can increase versatility at the cost of power. I generally don't have a problem with that.
Cheers!
I’ve thought about this and done some re-reading.
Note the text for Shape Soulmeld on page 41.
Feats normally override default rules. Page 20 is the default. The text here for this feat would trump said default.
Urgh. I know that text. I was thinking about it when I wrote my answer, and then missed it when checking the book and changed the answer to "you need the bind chakra feat". Stupid me.
Cheers!
I am playing as a LG monk with VoP. I have recently changed my alignment from LG to NG.. Thus, since I could not keep advancing as monk, i thought about Incarnate.
Men, NG Incarnate with VoP rules!! Not only for the bonuses grated by VoP to Wis and Con, but mostly because I can't use items (nor wear robes, helms, etc) and thus I am free to bind soulmelds to every chakra opened. That's huge!
Incarnate avatar or airstep sandals grant me flying, bluesteel bracers help with attacks, and totem avatar (taken thanks to shape soulmeld) bound to my shoulders increase my unarmed damage. Well, let me say, this is great! G-R-E-A-T!!
I just fell in love with incarnum.
My reasons for taking it were: (1) +2 to ac without investing any essentia is pretty nice at low levels. (2) Incarnates have no melds that give them a natural armor bonus. and (3) at higher level I will want to invest in an Amulet of Health to up my Con, leaving no room for an amulet of NA.
_______________________________________________________________
I also wanted to get an opinion on this idea. What do you think about investing in a feat like midnight dodge at low levels more for the bonus point of essentia, then to actually use the feat. I've been thinking a lot about it, and from levels 1-6, even one extra point of essentia for your melds can be huge. You'd have the feat so if at higher levels you wanted to throw a few points of essentia in there for the day that's fine, but at lower levels use the extra essentia to power your SM's. Thoughts?
I took the Shape Soulmeld (wormtail belt) for my incarnate. Probably not the most optimal thing to do in the long run, but it seems to be working out so far (I'm level 4 right now)
But you can switch out your soulmelds every day, right? You aren't stuck with Wormtail Belt from now on, right? The whole Probably not the most optimal thing to do in the long run is throwing me off, thinking that once you pick a soulmeld, you are stuck with that soulmeld from then on. It's my understanding that if you pick the Wormtail Belt one day, you can swap it for something else the other day. Therefore, there is no "long run".
But you can switch out your soulmelds every day, right? You aren't stuck with Wormtail Belt from now on, right? The whole Probably not the most optimal thing to do in the long run is throwing me off, thinking that once you pick a soulmeld, you are stuck with that soulmeld from then on. It's my understanding that if you pick the Wormtail Belt one day, you can swap it for something else the other day. Therefore, there is no "long run".
Actually there is for this.
You are right that an Incarnate can swap out soulmelds every day. However Griff used a feat to obtain Wormtail Belt. That feat can't be changed. Now he can shape his usual changeable Incarnate soulmelds by his class level *and* Wormtail Belt which he picked up via feat. He could choose to not shape Wormtail Belt ... but he couldn't choose to shape something else in its place either.
I also wanted to get an opinion on this idea. What do you think about investing in a feat like midnight dodge at low levels more for the bonus point of essentia, then to actually use the feat. I've been thinking a lot about it, and from levels 1-6, even one extra point of essentia for your melds can be huge. You'd have the feat so if at higher levels you wanted to throw a few points of essentia in there for the day that's fine, but at lower levels use the extra essentia to power your SM's. Thoughts?
I think that it’s a viable build idea ... but I’m always leery of spending feats on things that I’m not really going to use much.
A human who took Bonus Essentia and 7 other incarnum feats would have an extra 9 essentia. At 20th level an incarnate can normally fully power up 4 soulmelds and has 2 essentia left over for other stuff. With an extra 9 essentia he could power 5 fully and would have 5 essentia left over to either nearly max out a 6th soulmeld, power feats, or whatnot. That’s a nice boost in power and the extra essentia would be noticeable across all 20 levels.
However I think that you could be missing out on a lot by using all your feats this way. If I were trying to get more essentia in a build I would take Bonus Essentia at 6th level no questions asked, but, at most, take one or two other incarunum feats in the build.
I know that it’s not the craziest feat in the world but I like Healing Soul because I don’t care to be totally dependant on other PCs or items for healing when I can avoid it.
I’m a big fan of Cobalt Expertise in any tripping or disarming build.
As for Midnight Dodge ... would you ever really want essentia in that feat? Would you take that over any of the AC improving melds like Crystal Helm at higher levels?
Actually there is for this.
You are right that an Incarnate can swap out soulmelds every day. However Griff used a feat to obtain Wormtail Belt. That feat can't be changed. Now he can shape his usual changeable Incarnate soulmelds by his class level *and* Wormtail Belt which he picked up via feat. He could choose to not shape Wormtail Belt ... but he couldn't choose to shape something else in its place either.
I think that it’s a viable build idea ... but I’m always leery of spending feats on things that I’m not really going to use much.
A human who took Bonus Essentia and 7 other incarnum feats would have an extra 9 essentia. At 20th level an incarnate can normally fully power up 4 soulmelds and has 2 essentia left over for other stuff. With an extra 9 essentia he could power 5 fully and would have 5 essentia left over to either nearly max out a 6th soulmeld, power feats, or whatnot. That’s a nice boost in power and the extra essentia would be noticeable across all 20 levels.
However I think that you could be missing out on a lot by using all your feats this way. If I were trying to get more essentia in a build I would take Bonus Essentia at 6th level no questions asked, but, at most, take one or two other incarunum feats in the build.
I know that it’s not the craziest feat in the world but I like Healing Soul because I don’t care to be totally dependant on other PCs or items for healing when I can avoid it.
I’m a big fan of Cobalt Expertise in any tripping or disarming build.
As for Midnight Dodge ... would you ever really want essentia in that feat? Would you take that over any of the AC improving melds like Crystal Helm at higher levels?
Just to clarify, I didn't accually take Midnight Dodge, I just used it as an example because it's the first feat that came to mind. Also, I wouldn't be in favor of spending all available feats on things like MD, Mose like one or maybe two. I guess I was thinking of it from the perspective of playing the character from first all the way up. This may just be specific to my group but we rarely (less than 10%) play high level campains, or we stop by about 15th. I think as you gain levels, you might see a diminishing return on using a low level feat this way, but at those low levels it could be a big help.
Side note- I can't see ANY meldshaper not taking Bonus Essentia at sixth. with the methods of aquiring essentia being so scarce, it seems like a no brainer.
The Soulspark Familiar in conjunction, with some of the ideas above, can be a real monster. Share Soulmeld and Acid Spittle alone (as pointed out already) add almost a whole PCs worth of damage. Now look at some of the essentia fueled bonuses it gets. If you put 8 essentia into it (Incarnate 20+feat+item) it will have Fast Healing 32. You almost have to kill it in one shot to stop it. The +8 to hit, damage, ac, and saves isn't bad either (not to mention any other soulmelds you have plus Radiance will effect it also). This is just my little addition to the "why Incarnate 20 isn't a bad build" camp.
That would only work if your Soulspark Familiar had the "Share Spells" ability normal familiars get, which it doesn't. Share Soulmeld specifically requires that.
That would only work if your Soulspark Familiar had the "Share Spells" ability normal familiars get, which it doesn't. Share Soulmeld specifically requires that.
Hmm...can anyone think of a way for a full Incarnate to get Share Spells with a Soulspark Familiar? If so, I think I found a way to break that Fast Healing 32.
Request: Can anyone give me a good Incarnate build using the following criteria...
Race: Warforged
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Standard Point-buy: 34 points
Feats: Must take Admantine Body feat at first level, all other feats from that point on are open
Source Books: Pretty much any 3.5 D&D book (Complete books, FR, MoI, MiniHB, Eberron, XPH, Races of X, etc.). Books that would not be allowed would be OA, SS, the older splat books like Sword and Fist, mainly because they are all 3.0.
Other criteria: As it stands now, I am a probably going to take 2 levels of Reforged at level 6 and 7, so if you can incorporate that in, it would be great!
Would like to build on his damage reduction, as well as improve his speed (since Admantine Body reduces it to 20 foot move). I am thinking Airstep Sandles as a soulmeld.
Would like to make him a fighter-type... Since he won't get a lot of attacks per round, I think we should take advantage of doing as much damage with 1 or 2 attacks as possible (Power Attack?)...
Thoughts?
Does that soulspark familiar work like normal familiars? Does it share the same skills as you do, as normal familiars do?
Request: Can anyone give me a good Incarnate build using the following criteria...
No, the Soulspark "Familiar" is more like a summoned creature than a traditional familiar. I would be interested in hearing Gerdreg's idea, because my opinion right now is that they are really really bad. They can't scout, they can't meaningfully impact a combat, and, the kicker, they vanish if they ever end a turn more than 10' from their creator ... yet they don't have the movement to keep up with most Incarnates.
Right now Soulspark Familiar gets my vote for worst Soulmeld in MoI.
As for your build ... what alignment are you looking at & what other sources are allowed?
As for your build ... what alignment are you looking at & what other sources are allowed?
Alginment: Lawful Neutral
Sources: Pretty much any 3.5 D&D book (Complete books, FR, MoI, MiniHB, Eberron, XPH, Races of X, etc.). Books that would not be allowed would be OA, SS, the older splat books like Sword and Fist, mainly because they are all 3.0.
As it stands now, I am a probably going to take 2 levels of Reforged at level 6 and 7, so if you can incorporate that in, it would be great!
Thanks a lot for your help and suggestions...
I would be interested in hearing Gerdreg's idea, because my opinion right now is that they are really really bad. They can't scout, they can't meaningfully impact a combat, and, the kicker, they vanish if they ever end a turn more than 10' from their creator ... yet they don't have the movement to keep up with most Incarnates.
Right now Soulspark Familiar gets my vote for worst Soulmeld in MoI.
Well my idea was based on the Shared Soulmeld feat, which I should have read a bit more carefully. "IF" The Souldspark Familiar could use Shared Soulmelds (at full meldshaper power, like the Acid Spittle example) then a Soulspark Familiar using Lifebond Vestments (bound to Heart Chakra) could heal 60 pt. of damage a round, take 30 damage to itself, and regen all of it back the following round. Essentially (pun intended) the Soulspark would be able to heal an infinite amount of damage, at 60 pts. per round.
I guess a similar trick could be done with any familiar that has alot of fast healing, but it would take a familiar capable of healing 30 pts. a round to itself to make full use of my (misbegotten) idea. Sorry for the false alarm, I thought I was on to something.
Well my idea was based on the Shared Soulmeld feat, which I should have read a bit more carefully. "IF" The Souldspark Familiar could use Shared Soulmelds (at full meldshaper power, like the Acid Spittle example) then a Soulspark Familiar using Lifebond Vestments (bound to Heart Chakra) could heal 60 pt. of damage a round, take 30 damage to itself, and regen all of it back the following round. Essentially (pun intended) the Soulspark would be able to heal an infinite amount of damage, at 60 pts. per round.
I guess a similar trick could be done with any familiar that has alot of fast healing, but it would take a familiar capable of healing 30 pts. a round to itself to make full use of my (misbegotten) idea. Sorry for the false alarm, I thought I was on to something.
You don't need fast healing for this to work. Your familiar heals you, you heal your familiar. At each step significant amounts of damage is removed: infinite healing. If you can use Lifebond Vestments to heal yourself, you don't even need a partner.
Soulspark familiars are still useful, but only at low levels. A least soulspark is at least the equivalent of a non-optimised 1st lvl PC. A lesser soulspark is probably better than a fairly optimised 2nd level PC. It may be downhill from there, but the hill is pretty tall. Is there any exception to the firing-into-melee penatly if you are part of the melee?
-Kraydak
I agree with you about the Soulspark Familiar soulmeld Todd. I got this book on Tuesday and the only use for it that I can think of is walking up to Link and saying, "Ha, ha, mine can't talk!"
Oh man, that's one of the best ideas I've ever heard! :heehee
I'm putting that in my sig. Hope you don't mind. :P
So I'm left wondering what happens with an Azurin Cleric with 5 feats (Shape Soul Meld x3, and 2 other Essentia boosting feats takes levels in Sapphire Hierarch. Since they have no Soulmeld caster levels, what exactly levels up, or are they just out of luck for that aspect of the class?
I would say yes, they are out of luck.
I would say yes, they are out of luck.
Agreed. (I've added this to my Q&A list)
Cheers!
Agreed. (I've added this to my Q&A list)
Cheers!
That's pretty much what I thought. Odd you can do that though, I can't think of another class in a similiar situation.
Not checked if there's anything else wrong yet, a casual once over says it's fine. Keep up the good work!
And that's 100% true for a multiclass meldshaper. A Totemist 2 / Incarnate 18 could not put 6 essentia into any melds he shaped using his totemist levels. He would still be limited to 4 (or 5 if Totem bound) for them.
The Shape Soulmeld feat is not necessarily covered by mulitclassing rules.
As I see it you have two options.
1. Say that Shape Soulmeld is covered by the mulitclassing rules, in which case the essentia cap is set to the base of you level and not increased by the Expanded Essentia Capacity class ability. Additionally soulmelds gained by this feat could not ever be bound. However this also means that the feat isn’t covered by the class rules governing how many melds a character can shape. Each time he takes this feat he can shape an additional Soulmeld above and beyond what is indicated on his class chart. This could easily lead to pure class Incarnates being able to shape 13 or more Soulmelds by level 20. Or imagine the power boost for a human Incarnate who can shape 4 soulmelds at first level instead of just 2. Heck you could even take this feat for soulmelds ALREADY on your list and get the best of both worlds. You could shape more soulmelds and get all the perks of binding and essentia boost by RAW since they are "on your list." It would give an only slightly lesser benifit than the Epic feat Bonus Soulmeld.
2. Say that Shape Soulmeld is not covered by the multiclassing rules. This would mean that non-meldshapers get to create one soulmeld if they take the feat. Meldshapers who took it would have still abide by the limit on how many melds they can shape but could use their class abilities to bind the soulmeld and increase it’s essentia capacity. Essentially the feat would work much the way the Expanded Knowledge psionic feat does and be seen as “adding” the new soulmeld to the character’s class list, though the melds gained would always be easier to unshape or supress.
With all that said, have I mentioned that I don’t like the mechanics of the Shape Soulmeld feat? I don’t like non-meldshapers having access to shaping soulmelds. I don’t like it that the feat’s meldshaper level is flat out half the character level even if he already has a meldshaper level that is higher or lower.
Before I started posting this I was leaning towards option 2. Now I’m starting to think that option 1 is closer to RAW. Both lead to somewhat silly things ... though #1 more so than #2 IMO. Anyway, Sigh.
I have been through all the incarnum posts I can find and I am having a problem finding any indication that Shape Soulmeld is useful to a character that cannot already shape soulmelds. Every time I read the description, I get hit by the interpretation that taking shape soulmeld adds the meld to the melding list but does not increase the number of melds that a character can make. I would interpret this as having a character with any feat that has no pre-requisites but that has no effect for a character without the appropriate ability (metamagic feats for a character without spellcasting).
I see people using these feats to gain soul melds even though they cannot meld soul melds, and I have trouble interpreting the RAW as permitting this; I certainly do not think this is RAI. The epic feats seem to reinforce my belief. Am I missing something?
In the second post a comparison between the Incarnate and Fighter's too hit was made. I am curious if there is any comparison after including iterative attacks. The Incarnate only has 2 attacks to the fighters 4 at 20th. That is a significant loss for a melee oriented Incarnate. Admittedly, the fighters 3rd and 4th attack may miss, however I still cannot overcome the feeling that this significant disadvantage cripples a Incarnate combat adaption. I have tries to look into the totemists alternate attack methods to overcome this difficulty, but both the Garillon arms and the Landshark boots require the ability to bind a meld to a totem bind to gain the extra attacks. Am I missing something here?
Finaly, I have seen no mention of the new multiclass psion/incarnate. I am not sure that the wizard/incarnate is not stronger, but as demonstrated by the President of Smack build, the psion/totemist build has some strong synergies. Does the incarnate create the same synergies?
Thanks for the feedback.
True, but using just the shadowy illumination Todd mentions, I think a lot of DM's would Rule 0 in a common sense penalty in a lot of situations. It may be fair game on the CharOp boards, but I'd be hard-pressed to find fault with the DM giving NPC's a bonus to their Spot checks to notice a light source emminating from behind an object during anything but broad daylight.
One 5ft square of shadowy illumination is about 1/4 as much as a candle. Sure, you can see a candle in the dark but it's a single point whilst the mantle of flame is diffuse about your body. As the illumination provided is equivalent to that of a darkness spell, shadowy illumination which still gives 20% concealment, you could still technically hide using it even in the pitch black as as long as you have cover/concealment you can hide.
I have been through all the incarnum posts I can find and I am having a problem finding any indication that Shape Soulmeld is useful to a character that cannot already shape soulmelds. Every time I read the description, I get hit by the interpretation that taking shape soulmeld adds the meld to the melding list but does not increase the number of melds that a character can make. I would interpret this as having a character with any feat that has no pre-requisites but that has no effect for a character without the appropriate ability (metamagic feats for a character without spellcasting).
Erm, it works because it says it does in the feat:
You can shape that soulmeld using the normal meldshaping rules
The feat explicitly states that you can shape the soulmeld.
Erm, it works because it says it does in the feat:
The feat explicitly states that you can shape the soulmeld.
It states
You can shape that soulmeld using the normal meldshaping rules
Yes, using the normal rules. The normal rules require inference from the meldshaping class ability as well as the Shaping Soulmelds section in the book. The former states that you can only shape a number of soulmelds equal to the listed amount of soulmelds on the character list. Since a character that takes no levels in Incarnate, Soulborn, or Totemist (or an appropriate prestige class) has 0 soulmelds on their list, the ability to shape a soulmeld remains unrealized. If you ignore the meldshaping class ability entirely, things like which attribute to use for save DC get lost (unless melds that allow DCs are disallowed to characters without one of these classes). On top of that, the rules on page 49 explicitly use the term melshapers for all their descriptions. The beginning of chapter two explicitly states what the three meldshaping classes are. Also, the very beginning of chapter two indicated that, while any class can use incarnum, the new classes are required to learn the art of meldshaping. Finaly, the existance of the epic feats strongly indicate that the interpratation of allowing shape soulmeld to outright grant a person the ability to shape a soulmeld is wrong.
I will admit that the feat could be interpreted as allowing ANY class to shape a souldmeld. All the evidence against this interpretation, even ignoring game balance issues (not that WotC is great with these issues anyway), is fairly overwhelming. Consequently, I have to interpret the Shape Soulmeld feat as requiring a character to have the meldshaping ability for it to have any use. What I am failing to understand is why this feat is being used in non-melshaping builds as often as they are on the boards. At the least the traditional disclaimer that this feat may (and by a reasonable DM should IMHO) be interpreted more conservatively (and disallowed) by some DMs should be noted. As far as I can determine, this should be one of the topics where the typical member of this board should assume a more conservative analysis of the feat unless explicitly told that the DM has ruled otherwise. Since this is not the case, I have to assume that I am issing something.
I will admit that the feat could be interpreted as allowing ANY class to shape a souldmeld. All the evidence against this interpretation, even ignoring game balance issues (not that WotC is great with these issues anyway), is fairly overwhelming.
The vast majority of the MoI feats were explicitly designed to be used by any character weather meldshaper or not. The meldshaper only feats are pretty clear and require things like “Meldshaper level 9th” for Double Chakra.
The requirements for Shape Soulmeld are Con 13. Nothing else. Clearly this is a feat that any non-meldshaper can meet the requirements for. Further the text of the Shape Soulmeld feat itself indicates that taking this feat gives you a “meldshaper level” (see the last sentence on page 40) indicating that you don't have to have one prior to taking the feat. Further the feat goes on to note things like “if you have essentia” ... so it’s clear that you don’t even need a single point of essentia to shape a soulmeld via this feat.
I think that the most "conservative" approach would be to assume that the feat was designed with non-meldshapers in mind.
I also noted that you quoted post 52 of mine. Post 56 is how I now understand this feat to operate.
The vast majority of the MoI feats were explicitly designed to be used by any character weather meldshaper or not. The meldshaper only feats are pretty clear and require things like “Meldshaper level 9th” for Double Chakra.
The requirements for Shape Soulmeld are Con 13. Nothing else. Clearly this is a feat that any non-meldshaper can meet the requirements for. Further the text of the Shape Soulmeld feat itself indicates that taking this feat gives you a “meldshaper level” (see the last sentence on page 40) indicating that you don't have to have one prior to taking the feat. Further the feat goes on to note things like “if you have essentia” ... so it’s clear that you don’t even need a single point of essentia to shape a soulmeld via this feat.
I think that the most "conservative" approach would be to assume that the feat was designed with non-meldshapers in mind.
I also noted that you quoted post 52 of mine. Post 56 is how I now understand this feat to operate.
That is the other side of it. It is like the Soulshape feat is designed in a matter completely opposed with the rest of the book. I was hoping that someone had found some support of your position if Post 56 instead of having a feat that essentially renders portions of the book invalid. I am uncomfortable utilizing/allowing a feat that is so problematic.
For me, interpreting the feat as unavailable to non-melders has less of an impact, and therefore is a safer interpretation, than allowing anyone to gain melds. While post 56 is more radical from a game balance perspective, I will admit that is is a more exacting interpretation of the feats effects.
Oh well, I will just have to see how much this effects build optimization.
Thanks for the response.
Another thing to consider is how many soulmelds you'd let a Totemist X/Incarnate Y shape. Do you limit both sides to the number meldable by the side with the greater limit (getting extremely fiddly about how many of each type you can meld) or allow both sides to meld independantly? What about if a character was a Druid/Cleric, would you limit them to the spells per day of the class able to cast the most spells or allow them to exist independantly?
If you would allow the independant version then consider that Shape Soulmeld gives meldshaping, with a meldshaper level and everything, and so should interact with other meldshaping just like any other sets of meldshaping would interact. If you wouldn't allow separate sources of meldshaping to work independantly then I'd suggest you carry your highly individual approach across to other classes and stop allowing things like BAB from different classes to stack.
@sCRuLooSe: No, the meldshaping rules do not limit you to a particular number of melds shaped. It's the meldshaping sections in the respective classes that limit you to a particular number of soulmelds per day. The general meldshaping rules do limit you to melds on your class list, but this feat explicitly gets round that.
Another thing to consider is how many soulmelds you'd let a Totemist X/Incarnate Y shape. Do you limit both sides to the number meldable by the side with the greater limit (getting extremely fiddly about how many of each type you can meld) or allow both sides to meld independantly? What about if a character was a Druid/Cleric, would you limit them to the spells per day of the class able to cast the most spells or allow them to exist independantly?
If you would allow the independant version then consider that Shape Soulmeld gives meldshaping, with a meldshaper level and everything, and so should interact with other meldshaping just like any other sets of meldshaping would interact. If you wouldn't allow separate sources of meldshaping to work independantly then I'd suggest you carry your highly individual approach across to other classes and stop allowing things like BAB from different classes to stack.
Your first paragraph hits my principal point of disagreement on the nail. Your comparison, however, falls short since it presumes that I accept your first paragraph as correct and does not even remotely resemble my interpretation of meldshaping. I would let the number of meldshapes stack between Incarnate X/Totem Y and that has nothing to do with my analysis.
My interpretation (interpretation 1) disagrees with your principal assumption that the meldshaping section in the respective classes are not essential to interpreting the instructions in the soul melding section. And no, the feat does not explicitly get around the class feature; rather, it can be interpreted as getting around it. The problem is that the feat refers you to the ability to shape the new soul meld using the "normal rules" on page 49. The rules that are referred to explicitly use the termonology meldshaper, a term that is defined in chapter two as explicitly those of the three meldshaping classes not as a person that has a meldshaper level. That, however, is easy to ignore as a minor rules adjustment in definition and bad writing. Harder to ignore is that the saves for a meld require a defined prime requisite. No mention of this prime requisite is made in the melding section, rather the only sections that define the save DC are the soulmeld section (p53) which referes the reader to the individual class entry or the class entries themselves. Which brings me to the primary point of disagreement. For me, the soulmeld section (p53) requires that the meldshaping class ability be incorporated. This is further reinforced by the existance of epic feats that are made obsolete by an interpretation of the the soulshape feat that allows the feat to add to the number of melds allowed.
On the other hand (interpretation 2), the second part of the shape soulmeld feat strongly implies that the feat is made to be taken by someone that does not belong to a meldshaping class. This is supported by the general feel of the incarnum feats, which are mostly designed for all classes, and the lack of prerequisites. If I grant that this part of the feat overrides the normal rules I have three problems. Either problem one, the feat contradicts itself, the feat should say use the normal rules except as follows. If the feat uses the normal rules, the implication seems to me that reference to the meldshaping class ability is essential (for the saves problem alone) and that restricts the number of soulmelds allowed. Or problem one, there is no stat to base saves on. Problem two, the epic feats are invalidated. Problem three, certain class-defining features, such as evasion, may become available to any class, a balance issue in my opinion. This is my complete analysis. Under this analysis, the problems for allowing this interpretation make this interpretation the harder to accept fo me. This is especially true given problem 3; a conservative analysis from a game balance perspective suggest to me that allowing the feat to be taken by a non-meldshaping class is too disruptive of game balance. Admittedly this is a personal value judgement on my part, but I would consider it to be the more conservative judgement given the balance ramifications.
I can understand, however, why the second interpretation would be allowed. And if it is allowed, I can understand why it adds to the number of souldmelds granted by the meld-shape classes (as indicated by your second and thrid paragraph). The reason I brought this topic up is I was hoping that I had missed a point that would more strongly indicate that interpretation two is the more valid choice. What am I missing that makes interpretation one less viable, that strengthens interpretation twos position, or that mitigates the three problems I noted?
Thanks for the analysis, if anyone can see that I am missing something please clue me in.
On a side note, the Saphire Hierarch NPC took the open chakra feat but did not seem to gain an extra chakra bind. Admittedly, they only hace two chakra to use anyway, but technically the interpretation that the open chakra feat increase the number of chakras that can be bound should enable the NPC to bind 3 chakras not 2. This might be used to argue against non-meldshapers being able to bind melds if they are permitted to gain a meld through shape soulmeld. Does this affect anyone's analysis?
Thanks
This is the first I have heard, however, that the Shape Soulmeld feat does not allow one to shape a soulmeld, but only adds (types, not number) to what melds they can already shape. If it indeed does not allow one to actually shape the meld, then it should have been called Extra Soulmeld, as the Spell feat.
Anyone want to submit this question to CustServ? I know they are not always on target, but it may grant SOME insight into what is intended.
The holes that you point-out are still present even if you have a meldshaping class, especially if you have multi-class meldshapers. What primary stat would a Totemist/Incarnate who took the feat use? You claim that there needs to be a meldshaping class for it to make sense, but really there are holes in it no-matter-how you look at it.
You constantly claim that the meldshaping class features must be referenced. The rules say nothing of the sort. As soon as you do something like that then your argument loses all RAW credibility. My argument is based purely on the fact that the feat says you can so something, so you can do it.
The epic feat Bonus Soulmeld is not rendered obselete by the Shape Soulmeld feat. The Bonus Soulmeld feat allows you to shape it as part of your meldshaping class which a) lets you use your full meldshaper level rather than half your character level and b) the Bonus Soulmeld may be changed from day to day whilst the Shape Soulmeld feat cannot be changed.
My personal answer to the "What Save DC?" problem is perhaps the obvious choice. As the soulmeld was initially chosen from a class list when the feat was taken, it is shaped with the same saving throw that that class would use. That's beside the point of the main argument, however.
CustServ did confirm (twice, I asked on different days) that the Open Chakra feats indeed DO NOT grant the ability to bind chakras. They only allow new bind locations to those that already have the ability to bind chakras. For me, this is clear now. The feat is not called Bind Chakra for a reason.
That's interesting, but Custserv ruleings are largely ignored on these boards. The feat itself says that you can bind a soulmeld or magic item to the chakra, and until it's changed with an errata then that's exactly what it does without any ifs or buts.
I think that Sapphire Hierarch is an incredible PrC. The one thing to watch out for is that SH doesn’t grant you extra chakra bind locations, even though it does let you bind more soulmelds.
This seems to me to be the big drawback to almost any of the '+ meldshaping levels' classes, especially given how much better many of the melds become when bound. The only way I can see around it are the various Open Chakra Feats, which seem like a high cost at one Feat per chakra, and the Open Chakra spells ... I'm just not sure whether a Chakra bind is worth a spell of those levels.
Would it be worth taking that fourth level of Incarnate to open two extra Chakras?
(And I thought it was already there... silly me!)
Cheers!
This seems to me to be the big drawback to almost any of the '+ meldshaping levels' classes, especially given how much better many of the melds become when bound. The only way I can see around it are the various Open Chakra Feats, which seem like a high cost at one Feat per chakra, and the Open Chakra spells ... I'm just not sure whether a Chakra bind is worth a spell of those levels.
Would it be worth taking that fourth level of Incarnate to open two extra Chakras?
I wouldn't take that 4th level. I would probably spend at most one or two feats on Open Chakra for things I knew that I would want all the time ... and the rest I would spend spell slots for. Having to memorize and use the varous Open Chakra spells does hurt a bit ... but less so than spending feats or caster levels.
For those that are interested in CustServ responses (obviously Lilt is not,
), they told me that Shape Soulmeld does indeed grant the ability to shape a soulmeld, even to those that do not already have that ability.As Todd said, I would go with the open chakra spells (which last 24 hrs.) to open new chakra bind locations, and I would try to maximize divine caster levels.
The spells are definately a good option. Note that using (greater) rods of extend spell you can cut in half the effective number of slots/day that you need to give-up by opening one one day and another the next.Pearls of power are another option here.
For those that are interested in CustServ responses (obviously Lilt is not,
Hey, to quote my response to your earlier custserv ruling:
That's interesting
I'm interested but, taking the accepted ways on these boards in mind, a custserv ruling means relatively little until it finds its way into errata. One could claim that if custserv are saying it then it will make it into the errata, but we've seen that sort of situation arise before and nothing resulted from it. In this case custserv's response goes with what the book says, in the other it goes against what the book says. It could be a sign of errata/FAQ entries to come, or it could be a sign that custserv are wrong (again).
As for my own opinions on CustServ, though I am a power gamer, I have never felt comfortable with using the RAW If I thought there was even a small chance it conflicted with the RAI. I take pride in my builds and hate the very idea that my optimizations could be misinterpreted as cheating. I, and others that are like me, value custserv responses, despite their rare contadictions, as they help us keep our honor in tact to those less open-minded character builders who would accuse us of cheating.
What confuses me about that ruling is that most people I know, even those who make less powerful characters as you put it, assume that the open chakra feats and spells do allow someone to bind a soulmeld if they weren't already able to do so. When Custserv say something which goes against what is seemingly the natural reading of the feat, for powergamers and non-powergamers alike, I don't consider it cheating to go with what is in the book.
Can you please point-out to me where in chapert two that meldshapers are defined as scrictly a member of one of the three classes? I can find no such definition, what's more the spinemeld warrior can shape soulmelds but if your definition holds true they are not a meldshaper.
First three paragraphs of the chapter. The paragraphs do specify core classes in their definition. They prety much overlook the prestige classes entirely.
The holes that you point-out are still present even if you have a meldshaping class, especially if you have multi-class meldshapers. What primary stat would a Totemist/Incarnate who took the feat use? You claim that there needs to be a meldshaping class for it to make sense, but really there are holes in it no-matter-how you look at it.
A good point that I overlooked. It doesn't help close the hole but it does place the problem in a different light making the interpretation that the lack of saves are a hole and not a reference.
You constantly claim that the meldshaping class features must be referenced. The rules say nothing of the sort. As soon as you do something like that then your argument loses all RAW credibility. My argument is based purely on the fact that the feat says you can so something, so you can do it.
I politely disagree. I can see an implicit reference to the class meldshaping descriptions in the soul shaping rules, the missing saving throw information. This is an interpretation issue that can be supported or opposed through interpretative analysis using RAW. My argument retains ALL RAW credibility under the interpretation that the lack of saves data is a reference to the class ability, whereas the feat loses all RAW credibility as it becomes self-contradictory. That said, several of your other points further incline me to take the interpretation that the lack of a save criteria is a hole rather than a reference; consequently there will not be a need to refer to the meldshaping class ability to use the soul melding rules.
The epic feat Bonus Soulmeld is not rendered obselete by the Shape Soulmeld feat. The Bonus Soulmeld feat allows you to shape it as part of your meldshaping class which a) lets you use your full meldshaper level rather than half your character level and b) the Bonus Soulmeld may be changed from day to day whilst the Shape Soulmeld feat cannot be changed.
Excellent points that I completely overlooked and ones that overcomes my second biggest objection for allowing any class to utilize shape soulmeld.
My personal answer to the "What Save DC?" problem is perhaps the obvious choice. As the soulmeld was initially chosen from a class list when the feat was taken, it is shaped with the same saving throw that that class would use. That's beside the point of the main argument, however.
Good idea, and probably the easiest solution.
I am still a bit concerned about balance, but if the soul meld cannot be bound, I am much less concerned. Thus, I will probably allow characters to take the shape soul meld feat but will not allow them to bind the soulmeld even if they have an open chakra unless they also have a chakra bind. Typically I ignore customer service unless I concur whith their judgements; I just do not trust custserv's analytical skills. Still, thanks for the custserv note Gerdreg.
What confuses me about that ruling is that most people I know, even those who make less powerful characters as you put it, assume that the open chakra feats and spells do allow someone to bind a soulmeld if they weren't already able to do so. When Custserv say something which goes against what is seemingly the natural reading of the feat, for powergamers and non-powergamers alike, I don't consider it cheating to go with what is in the book.
I tend to agree with Lilt here. The feats and spells make little sense if they don't do what they say. Neither the feats nor spells require meldshaper levels.
Custserv has a pretty spotty record especially with new products. I think that Bruce Cordell said it best when told us that while custserv is empowered to answer rules questions that generally one should not ask them.... While they have some access to the developers & do the best job that they can the fact is that they get it wrong more often than not on non-core stuff.
Now it's my turn to be polite. ;)
If you want to discuss these two feats could you please create a seperate thread? I think that this discussion has wandered a bit from one regarding the Incarnate class.
Thanks!
I am still a bit concerned about balance, but if the soul meld cannot be bound, I am much less concerned.
Can you give an example of a bound soulmeld where you would be concerned about balance when taken by a normal character?
Cheers!
@Todd: Thanks, consider the wandering closed on my part.
Returning to the main topic of the thread: Did you consider the use of the Necrocarnum Acolyte feat? It allows Necroncarnum soulmelds (like Necrocarnum Weapon) to be shaped by any nonevil incarnate, such as the law incarnate. Would that provide a superior melee character to the normal evil or law incarnates?
Did you consider the use of the Necrocarnum Acolyte feat? It allows Necroncarnum soulmelds (like Necrocarnum Weapon) to be shaped by any nonevil incarnate, such as the law incarnate. Would that provide a superior melee character to the normal evil or law incarnates?
I’ve been thinking about it lately. Mechanically it seems almost like a no-brainer to take it. The Nercrocarnum melds are usually very good & it helps that most of them like Necrcarnum Weapon stack with other soulmelds.
I’ve yet to really figure out this feat in a RP sense though. The flavor we get for Necrocarnum is that it is so evil that even some evil Incarnates don’t shape it. So what the heck is a LN or CN thinking when they use it? Is a LN going to justify its use by thinking that the pain of a few souls is outweighed by the needs of the many? Is the CN guy going to think that his own goals are important enough to justify any means ... and that it’s not like he is going to be making them suffer forever?
In unrelated I’m going to be going over the first few posts in the next day or two. My writing could stand a fair bit of cleanup. I had started using post #5 for things like Soulcasters and Sapphire Hierarch numbers but I’m thinking of re-doing it and putting some feat suggestions and whatnot there. Any thoughts anyone?
I’ve been thinking about it lately. Mechanically it seems almost like a no-brainer to take it. The Nercrocarnum melds are usually very good & it helps that most of them like Necrcarnum Weapon stack with other soulmelds.
I’ve yet to really figure out this feat in a RP sense though. The flavor we get for Necrocarnum is that it is so evil that even some evil Incarnates don’t shape it. So what the heck is a LN or CN thinking when they use it? Is a LN going to justify its use by thinking that the pain of a few souls is outweighed by the needs of the many? Is the CN guy going to think that his own goals are important enough to justify any means ... and that it’s not like he is going to be making them suffer forever?
In unrelated I’m going to be going over the first few posts in the next day or two. My writing could stand a fair bit of cleanup. I had started using post #5 for things like Soulcasters and Sapphire Hierarch numbers but I’m thinking of re-doing it and putting some feat suggestions and whatnot there. Any thoughts anyone?
I agree with this, I've also been thinking about necrocarnum and it doen't seem to fit thematically with non- evil meldshapers.
I've also been thinking about necrocarnum and it doen't seem to fit thematically with non- evil meldshapers.
Look at it this way. One sure way to stay neutral on the moral alignment axis is to use evil means to accomplish good ends. A good example of this is the Corrupt Avenger, from Heroes of Horror. He channels his corruption to better battle against an evil foe. A lawful incarnate could feasibly wish to contribute greatly to a lawful good society model, with no compunctions about using evil means (i.e. necrocarnum) to achieve such an end. Where he is intransigent, however, is in his lawful approach.
I agree with this, I've also been thinking about necrocarnum and it doen't seem to fit thematically with non- evil meldshapers.
Some possibilities that might fit.
1) A secret police character working for an evil government.
2) A witch hunter that believes the ends justify the means but works to promote the greater good.
3) A fanatic for his religion that believes the souls of non-believers have no rights.
4) A fanatic that worships a deity of martyrdom/self sacrifice or of suffering that uses his powers only on other worshipers.
5) A believer in a religion that accepts a form of enlightentment/existance/purpose beyond the existence of the soul.
6) A cursed descendent of a necromancer that cannot help but use necrocarnum and fights to redeem himself.
7) A poet that has chosen to delve into the realms of how incarnum might be used to let him deal with the dead and speak, once again, with his lost beloved.
8) A young apprentice tricked by the existance of a meld that does not seem evil (protection from disease) into believing that necrocarnum got a bad rap and too loyal to his teacher to be persuaded otherwise
Any thoughts anyone?
A section listing specific builds for taking over major party rolls would be nice. I am still interested in seeing a non-spring attack build that can take the role of bruiser even though he has only 1-2 iterative attacks. The skill monkey role is easy enough to see without a writeup, but optimized builds for an incarnate healer, blaster, and sage would be nice. A list of non-incarnate soulmelds that an optimized character might eant to take the shape soulmeld feat for might be useful. Finaly a quick analysis of ihe incarnum feat, which ones might be worthwhile for what type of build would be useful.
Thanks for all the great work you are doing on this thread.
The only wholly new addition so far was some stuff on Ranged Combat in post #2.
How about mentioning the astral vambraces from the minds eye on the combat section? binded to hands, 2slams is pretty good for an incarnate, especially if you can get a proper natural attack routine going (say with rapid strike or a race with natural attacks). For the arms, the trip construct option is good, particuarly if you already have slams from a different soucre (such as warforged alter self into juggernaut with second slam for 3 per round).
I've added them to the table. I'll be doing some fleshing out too. Astral Vambraces are hands down the single most flexible soulmeld ever.
Can you use Artificer Infusions on soulmelds?
I'm no Artificer expert but soulmelds are not magic items so I don't see how this could work.
I
I'm no Artificer expert but soulmelds are not magic items so I don't see how this could work.
I don't have my book on me, but I remember thinking Infusions would work. Soulmelds are magical, physical items after all... and I seem to remember more wording that supports the idea. Surely an Incarnate Weapon is a legitimate target for the weapon augmentation infusions...
-Kraydak
I don't have my book on me, but I remember thinking Infusions would work. Soulmelds are magical, physical items after all... and I seem to remember more wording that supports the idea. Surely an Incarnate Weapon is a legitimate target for the weapon augmentation infusions...
I don't remember reading anywhere that soulmelds were "physical items." In fact they are energy constructs made out of Incarnum. Sometimes that energy is solid enough to affect physical objects ... but more in a way that a force field is solid. I would say no to the Incarnate Weapon thing too....
"Once shaped, a soulmeld takes on a solid physical form ... A shaped souldmeld acts as a normal object that might be worn, such as boots, armor or a robe, except for the following: they cannot be removed ... damaged ... don't have weight."
I'd say thats pretty definitive, actually. Binding Karsus for +2 on soulmeld save DCs might be interesting.
-Kraydak
I think that Sapphire Hierarch is an incredible PrC. The one thing to watch out for is that SH doesn’t grant you extra chakra bind locations, even though it does let you bind more soulmelds.
I was tremendously worried about this myself. I just can't seem to get a Chaotic Incarnate/Divine Manifester (Cleric or Archivist) to work to my satisfaction. I'd love a Soulbow/Ranged Incarnate/Divine Caster, but I'm really, really worried about the Chakra binds.
I've got an Evil Raptoran Incarnate charger in the works as well, but I'm terrified of the low BAB and keep wanting to rely on Divine Power to fix my BAB issues. Unfortunately, Evil Incarnates can't use Sapphire Hierarch. My worries to this extent are so great that I've been looking considering using Soulcaster to advance my meldshaping, but as I'd like 9th level spells, then I'd have to use some wierd hybrid of Incarnate/Beholder Mage/Ur-Priest/Soulcaster/Mystic Theurge.
Just how valuable is the Incarnum domain? Is the Sapphire Hierarch powerful enough to warrant an alignment change for a Charger? Opinions?
What are your thoughts on the Incarnum domain?
What are your thoughts on the Incarnum domain, specifically as it applies to an Incarnate/Divine Caster?
Pearls of Power are also helpful here allowing you to cast the spell twice for one slot spent.
The Incarnum Domain is really nice at high levels (Incarnum Apotheosis) but most of the other spells are replicated the generic cleric list. It's kind of a YMMV kind of domain. I like it for the Warmage (arcane disciple feat) or for a cleric who has Domain Spontaneity which enables them access to the spells without having to spend slots on them.
As for archery ... I find that it’s the hardest type of Incarnate build for me to make. Mixing Cleric, Soulbow, & Incarnate sounds good on paper but you will be loosing out on 9th level spells. The Cleric 17 / Soulknife 2 / Soulbow 1 build with VoP that showed up on the “optimizing the soulbow” thread is very solid by itself. I’m not sure that adding Incarnum in would make it better. It might work in some sort of Ur-priest build though.
Unfortunately, Evil Incarnates can't use Sapphire Hierarch.
Just how valuable is the Incarnum domain? Is the Sapphire Hierarch powerful enough to warrant an alignment change for a Charger? Opinions?
It does mention in the adaption section of sapphire hierarch that you can change the alignment with a little effort. Just change all instances of the word law to evil and all instances of the word chaos to good and its now the midnight hierarch and an evil prestige class
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a
I've added them to the opening posts too....
Gotta say Todd, this IS a great thread. Now, if I could just find a DM who would let me use Incarnum
Draconic Soulmelds are in the excerpt!
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a
I've added them to the opening posts too....
Heh. Should've figured you'd be right on top of this one, Todd.
So, is it just me, or is Elder Spirit a bit more useful than Mage's Spectacles? Use Magical Device untrained at the same bonus, but with the added bonus of 3 immunities if you bind it to your crown?
I also find it interesting that Dragon Tail grants competence bonuses. That means that it will stack with Acrobat Boots for Balance and Sailor's Bracers for swimming. You could get some really high skill rolls that way. I'm not sure what to make of it yet but I'm wondering if there might not be some ToB synergy with the Balance check.
And speaking of ToB ... one of my first thoughts was that a Law Incarnate / Swordsage would be pretty cool....
And I knew that Todd would jump right at the new Soulmels too!:D
I feel alot better now that my Incarnate (A dragonic human, whoopie!!!) can get Fast healing!
Incarnate: "I get a bonus on knowledge (history)!"
Totemist: "I get universal energy resistance (sans sonic), fast healing, and damage reduction. In one soulmeld."
There is always the Shape Soulmeld feat though if you really want it.
Dragon Mantle + Lifebound Vestments + Downtime= happy party!
Btw, Will the Incarnate be able to use the Dragon Tail in a full attack action and if not, is it worth it?
There is a question of interpretation as to whether you can use your Incarnate-granted chakra binds on a soulmeld from Shape Soulmeld, though.
Not true. The feat explicity says that you can. ;)
There is debate about if the shaped soulmeld counts against the total number shaped though.
Now, do you know about the meld and Full attack or you as uncertain as I am?
Not true. The feat explicity says that you can. ;)
There is debate about if the shaped soulmeld counts against the total number shaped though.
The way I read it, the added soulmeld is on its own, separate from your regular list that you gain from meldshaper levels. As such, it does not count against. The same applies for the Open Chakra feats.
I'm sure I'm just another drop in the bucket of debate though.
If you have the ability to bind a soulmeld to a chakra, you can bind this soulmeld to any chakra available to you (as long as the soulmeld can be bound to that chakra).
You can houserule a difference between "available" chakra gained from classes and those gained from feats, I can understand a why one might do that, but the Shape Soulmeld text makes no such distinction.
Sephiroth, I'm not sure about the Dragon Tail. Every single bind mentions using it as a standard action. Even the Totem Chakra doesn't seem to allow it to be used for full attacks. I'm going to have to look at the book.
With saying all of this, I really do appreciate the work everyone has done in this thread especially Todd. I've got some questions still but haven't done enough studying of MoI to contribute too much more to the conversation.
Is there anything about MoI that makes people not want to use it? The reason I picked it up is that the concept apealed to me. Now, I do have my complaints like not enough feats for Incarnum based characters only or lack of specific magic items or even a few more Incarnum monsters would be good. I'm just hoping Dragon Magic is the beginning of more Incarnum appearances in the books.
I drink to that, Sumo! Sake all around!!
Pray pray PRAAAAAY for Complete Incarnum!
Don't hold your breath
How long was it from 3e Psi HB to Comp Psi?
Don't hold your breath
How long was it from 3e Psi HB to Comp Psi?
There was a revision in between. The Expanded Psionics Handbook to Complete Psionic was about two years (April 2004-April 2006). And the former was still far, far better than the latter -- CPsi is, without a doubt, the worst Complete book, and quite possibly the worst expansion book WotC's published.
Sephiroth, I'm not sure about the Dragon Tail. Every single bind mentions using it as a standard action. Even the Totem Chakra doesn't seem to allow it to be used for full attacks. I'm going to have to look at the book.
It's quite clear in the text.
The Dragon Tail may only be used as a standard action, not as a full attack. It's not a natural weapon. It never threatens, nor can it be used for Attacks of opportunity. The waist bind allows you to attack further away (as if it were a reach weapon), but that's it.
Cheers!
Also, does an incarnate know every soulmeld possible and can meld a maximum, of soulmelds according to his level under "soulmelds" in the Meldshaping table on page 21 or his con-10, whichever is lower? Or does he know a maximum of soulmelds according to his level under "soulmelds" in the Meldshaping table on page 21 and can shape a maximum of his con-10?
I know that is confusiong, but incarnum is *pretty* confusing.
Is there like a list somewhere of all of the soulmelds and what they do that you can put some criteria into and you will find what you want? Like I could type in "attack bonus" and get all of the soulmelds that give you attack bonuses or even a list that seperates the three soulmelding classes soulmelds?
Also, does an incarnate know every soulmeld possible and can meld a maximum, of soulmelds according to his level under "soulmelds" in the Meldshaping table on page 21 or his con-10, whichever is lower? Or does he know a maximum of soulmelds according to his level under "soulmelds" in the Meldshaping table on page 21 and can shape a maximum of his con-10?
Incarantes know all soulmelds on their list but can only shape the number in the chart or con-10
It seems obvious, yet I didn't see anything with SC in this thread or in the SC compilation (although I only browsed the index). Your BAB is lousy, but you have 9th level spells, good saves, and a very healthy set of skillpoints supplemented by the Incarnate's skill boosters. Take the feats Obtain Familiar and Share Soulmeld for a really buff ally while you're at it (and silliness such as "infinite" healing if you share the Lifebond soulmeld).
No worries about xp penalties either, so race choice is open. Humans as always are a nice choice. The Silverbrow variant (Dragon Magic) is ok too if you want to shape the dragon soulmelds. Gnomes have sub levels for both incarnate and bard if they interest you. Half-elf bard levels are powerful too, and you can even squeeze in that Marshall level if you go want. Whee, caster/skillmonkey/diplomancer all rolled into one.
Bard 4/Incarnate 2/Marshall 1/Mindbender 1/Soulcaster 2/Sublime Chord 2/Soulcaster +8
If you want to be skill based or a trapfinder then Incarnate obviously works best here, but I think that Totemist is actually better in the 2 level dips like that. It has everything to do with the Totem chakra bind and the boost to essentia cap. Incarnate 3 is even better than Totemist 2 in that respect, but harder to pull off and costly in terms of BAB.
Optimization wise I'm also not sure that there is a whole lot of difference between Soulcaster 10 and Soulcaster 8 in some builds.
Someone else mentioned Sublime Chord early on. I was concerned about the skill requirements then but it's doable. What alignment were you thinking?
I don't think it makes too much of a difference, as alignment for the most part is more important for combat which my build really isn't built for. If anything, I would lean towards evil to slip in that level of Necrocarnate:
Bard 4/Incarnate or Totemist 2/Mindbender 1/Soulcaster 3/Sublime Chord 2/Necrocarnate 1/Soulcaster +7
If you want to be skill based or a trapfinder then Incarnate obviously works best here, but I think that Totemist is actually better in the 2 level dips like that. It has everything to do with the Totem chakra bind and the boost to essentia cap. Incarnate 3 is even better than Totemist 2 in that respect, but harder to pull off and costly in terms of BAB.
Quite true. It comes down to skills vs power. Overall, I think the incarnate soulmelds will be more useful as the various totem abilities are more easily duplicated with spells.
edit: another reason for Incarnate was the use of substitution levels
Optimization wise I'm also not sure that there is a whole lot of difference between Soulcaster 10 and Soulcaster 8 in some builds.
I don't like that 10th level ability anyways (now if we could choose which level to burn, it's be great), but I figured any dual progression was better than a single progression. The build overall can use some tweaking, but that takes more effort :P
I just created a 7th level Rilkan Incarnate who is focusing on light crossbows. I'm trying to figure out the best set up of soulmelds and possible equipment for him. I know there is the sighting gloves and it seems the Incarnate avatar helps out but is there any other really needed soulmelds? I've got 9 essentia points to spread around and an Incarnum enchanted +1 light crossbow and Incarnum +1 breastplate. I'll admit I am not that famaliar with Incarnum based weaponary. I did pick up a couple of feats from the PHB for crossbows but don't remember them right off hand.
What alignment are you?
My alignment is CN. It is the only combo that a Rilkan Incarnate can have.
Though they usually are rilkans are not required to be chaotic
I know this was discussed before, but there's also the possibility of a Totemist Necrocarnum Acolyte. Sure, you can't actually shape Necrocarnum soulmelds, but niether the class nor the feat require you to be able to.
Finally, an item thought:
Pipes of the Sewers can provide you with potentially limitless corpses. It doesn't say anything in the Necrocarnum Acolyte's soul-stealing ability about the SIZE of the bodies you can grab essentia from. Summon some swarms of rats, have your zombie crunch'em. Rinse and repeat.
See my post on the tricks page.
Also, does Shape Soulmeld get around the restriction of requiring draconic blood to shape those soulmelds?
I would say no. YMMV.
My end opinion is that if you are going to play a draconic race anyways, why not. Otherwise, most of the other melds are just as good, if not better.
If I go Totemist 1/Incarnate 19, can I bind Totemist Soulmelds to the Chakras I unlock with Incarnate levels? It appears that unlocked a Chakra for binding is a universal ability. I know you can't use the extended capacity, etc. on non-Incarnate soulmelds, but what about the binds?
Harliquinn
Even though you can't mix and match your Chakra Binds between classes, would it be worth it to take either Incarnate or Totemist level 1 just to have access to all the soulmelds of that class?
Would it be worth it to take either Incarnate or Totemist level 1 just to have access to all the soulmelds of that class?
There is probably not that many Soulmelds that you want to have from one of the lists if you focus exclusively on only one of Incarnate or Totemist. I think taking the Shape Soulmeld feat once or twice should get you the soulmelds that you really want and you can use all the Chakras from your class with them as well.
I don't mind doing the skill/back-up character, but I'd like to be decent in melee or ranged combat (We have a warmage/cleric, arcane summoner, heavy armor tank, and probably a bard already in the group). I envisioned myself being able to quickly adapt to the needs of the particular day, while still being useful for fighting when it comes to that. Originally I was thinking "Soulspark Familiar" and "Dissolving SPittle" combined with Share Soulmeld Feat, but after re-reading, that doesn't work
I thought about 1 level of arcane caster for a familiar, but not sure that a 1st level familiar even with Incarncum binds would be that great...Sorry for rambling, but sometimes I have trouble coming up with solid ideas for a character.
Harliquinn
What you're thinking of is racial HDs--an outsider would get the 8+x skill points for their racial HD, but if they took a class on top, they'd get the skill points of their class. However, if they decided to go above an beyond the racial HD they normally get, they'd continue gaining the extra SPs.
This is, of course, assuming that the character would lose the benefit of any feat requiring IUS without the Mauling Gauntlets bound, just like a character with 11 INT and a +2 Headband of Intellect can't use Combat Expertise anymore if he loses his headband.
~Elsidar
Lastly, there are some abilities that explicitly state they cannot be used to meet prerequisites, but I don't think soulmelds fall into that category.
In general, I believe that the rules state that temporary effects, like magic items and soulmelds don't let you qualify for prerequisites. However, they also state that DM's can allow it if they want to, but that things would not work if the character didn't meet the prerequisites at any time.
Lastly, there are some abilities that explicitly state they cannot be used to meet prerequisites, but I don't think soulmelds fall into that category.
Keep in mind though, that a soulmeld can remain shaped for a characters entire life.
if i play a necrocarnate in ebberon, and i have an eternal wand of summon swarm, can i use that to grab a swam then crunch rats for the duration and full my essentia pool every day?
i don't see any real reason why this doesn't work, but i didn't know if you could pull individual rats from a swarm creature type. assume you just give the swarm the command "sit here and don't attack anything" and you walk over and start plucking out rats and snapping them in half
If not, I think that you are abusing the rules in a clever (and legal) manner. If the DM still does not alow it, you can always substitute the rat with a cat or a child!
One thing mentioned under the skill section is that there is no +Listen soulmeld for the Incarnate. Not completely true. Although the Soulspark Familiar isn't that great of a Soulmeld from a mechanical standpoint, their Listen Modifiers are pretty good. Also, and this is DM dependent, some DMs might allow you to rework their feats each time you shape the soulmeld.
At lower levels, the soulspark is actually really good to have around. I belive that the short range described in the Soulmeld section is some sort of typo. How could it posibly act as a scout when it can only move 10ft from you?!
Btw: I am currently playing a Soulborn 18/Totemist 2 and I am kicking BUTT! Using Mauling gauntlets (Hands) and Heart of fire (Totem) together with Superior Unarmed strike and the ring that makes my attacks count as Adamanite, nothing survives me! Loads of fun!
Introduction
Ever since the release of Magic of Incarnum I have seen post after post where people say that the Incarnate is “weak” or that “it needs more skill points” or that it “can’t hold it’s own in melee” or that it was “only good as a dip class.”
My initial impression was actually somewhat similar. The class looked woefully underpowered at first glance. Yet a closer analysis gave me an entirely different perspective. What I did was break down what the class could and could not do mathematically by level. In general what I found was:
* The Incarnate can compete with the Rogue skill wise & has trapfinding.
* The Incarnate can be more durable in combat than a Fighter.
* Depending on alignment, the Incarnate can hold his own in melee or ranged combat.
* The Incarnate is nearly as good at single target blasting as a Warlock.
* The pure Incarnate is one of the most versatile classes in the game, having access to soulmelds that enhance mobility, resistances, and more ... all in addition to what was mentioned above.
That doesn’t seem weak at all to me. ;)
However I think that it also helps to keep in mind what the Incarnate isn’t. With a title like Magic of Incarnum many folks expected the Incarnate to be able to fill the role that an arcane or divine caster does. He can’t.
* The Incarnate is a reasonable secondary healer but cannot match any existing healing class.
* The Incarnate has limited ability to buff others.
* The Incarnate cannot be a true blaster as he lacks the ability to affect multiple targets.
* The Incarnate cannot duplicate most spells.
What follows is some analysis and charts built using excel to back up some of these assertions.
Note: This is second version of this thread. I’ve rewritten much the first few posts as I found that I had an unfortunate tendency to repeat myself and that my writing was a bit less polished than I like.
The Incarnate as a Skill Monkey
Incarnate vs Rogue
More so than any other MoI class the Incarnate can shape a huge number of soulmelds that boost skills. It’s also interesting to note that, unlike the Totemist soulmelds, the Incarnate melds grant Insight bonuses in most cases so they will stack with items which grant Competence bonuses. Further the Incarnate can emulate things like Trapfinding via soulmelds further suggesting that this is a role that they might be able to fill.
Many Soulmelds grant either +2 or +4 to anywhere from 1 to 3 skills without needing to be bound to a chakra. This increases by +2 per essentia invested. In the chart below I’ve compared what a character who has maxed out a given skill could do vs what an Incarnate can do to a single skill with a +2 base soulmeld. I’ve shown the difference between the maxed out ranks & the soulmeld to show how many actual skill ranks an Incarnate would need to be able to perform at the same level.
In the table:
Level = levels in the Incarnate class.
Skill Ranks = the number of max class ranks possible
Meld Bonus = the bonus to a skill granted by a soulmeld.
Ranks Needed = how many ranks the Incarnate would need to actually have to match the maxed out skill.
What you have failed to take into account is that while the Incarnate can skill monkey by putting every thing he gets into it. That is all he does and is there fore still not as good as a rogue because he doesn't have the other things a rogue gets like say back stab and is four levels behind to pick up the reason to have a rouge over a different skill monkey like say a bard (trap sense) also I am pretty sure that the Incarnate has a worse BAB then a Rouge. Congrats you now are a rogue with slightly less good skills and none of the combat though you do get better armor.
A nonbeliver in our midst...
And what you seem to miss is the fact that if the Incarnate uses those skill granting Soulmelds he can still gain other abilities from them. Psion's eyes for example grants you Mindlink at will. Other such powers include and is not limited to faster movement, constant True sight, becoming immune to frightful presence, sleep, and paralysis effects as if you were a dragon, Suggestion at will Etc. Etc. And keep in mind that these are just the Soulmelds that grants you the skill bonuses; he still has Soulmelds left to increase his offensive/defensive capabilities as he sees fit. Rouges can't actually spit acid now can they? And it's called Sneak attack and not Back stab...
As for the BAB, a Incarnate with the right Soulmelds and feats can beat the living stuffing out of a Barbarian should the need arise...
Rouges can't actually spit acid now can they? And it's called Sneak attack and not Back stab...
Psst... 2nd edition called, they want their nomenclature back.
/crickets
On a slightly different note while I think that the Class is a little underpowered raw it is probably my favorite multiclass class. it works better added to any class then any other two class combo I have ever seen (not counting PrC).
I do have to admit that the Incarnate class isn't as bad as I originally thought though I still find it a little underpowered.
A nonbeliver in our midst...
And what you seem to miss is the fact that if the Incarnate uses those skill granting Soulmelds he can still gain other abilities from them. Psion's eyes for example grants you Mindlink at will. Other such powers include and is not limited to faster movement, constant True sight, becoming immune to frightful presence, sleep, and paralysis effects as if you were a dragon, Suggestion at will Etc. Etc. And keep in mind that these are just the Soulmelds that grants you the skill bonuses; he still has Soulmelds left to increase his offensive/defensive capabilities as he sees fit. Rouges can't actually spit acid now can they? And it's called Sneak attack and not Back stab...
As for the BAB, a Incarnate with the right Soulmelds and feats can beat the living stuffing out of a Barbarian should the need arise...
No I don't think that cosmetic makeup could spit acid.
No I don't think that cosmetic makeup could spit acid.
Don't tell me I miss spelled...
Don't tell me I miss spelled...
misspelled
My plan will be for a mobile skirmisher using either lightning gauntlets or acid spittle depending upon the combat situation.
I am still considering a 1st level of rogue (for trapfinding), though I was also thinking of 1 level of an arcane spellcasting class along with the feats Practiced Spellcaster and Share Soulmelds so that I could get a familiar that spit acid as well
I guess I could do this with a level of druid also for an animal companion instead of a familiar. Not sure the feat investment is worth it for another potential 7d6 damage (Though I suppose when binding to throat, it would be an extra 14d6 damage later on).My anticipated feats are:
1st: Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (If 1st level is Incarnate)
3rd: Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (If 1st level is non-Incarnate) / Share Soulmeld (Otherwise)
6th: Bonus Essentia
9th: Double Chakra (Probably Throat or Hands)
12th:
15th:
18th: Split Chakra (Soul)
I am not sure if the Open Chakra feats might be worth taking. By the reading, it appears they would give an extra Bound Chakra in addition to what I get from my class. So with 2 feats (or more) invested in those, I could possibly bind soulmelds to all my chakras. Does this sound correct?
Harliquinn
Originally I thought Azurin for the race, but Azurin can't be Incarnates.
Says who?
Now I'm leaning towards the Aasimar (The LA +0 version) and the substitution levels. The weapon focus/proficiency with a warhammer (naturally), sharing radiance with non-evil party members (a given) and the good aligned attacks all seem nice. I wish it got the 4 skill points / level like the Tiefling or Gnome, but it does get d8 hit points for a few levels which is nice.
Though Azurin is a good incarnum choice, the Aasimar substitution levels are still useful.
I am not sure if the Open Chakra feats might be worth taking. By the reading, it appears they would give an extra Bound Chakra in addition to what I get from my class. So with 2 feats (or more) invested in those, I could possibly bind soulmelds to all my chakras. Does this sound correct?
Now that we've seen it, I don't know. People have often cited Open Chakra as allowing people to bind a soulmeld to that chakra even without getting a per-day quantity of binds from a class. But considering that all the incarnum classes explicitly limit how many soulmelds you can have bound at once, I'm not sure that this works. There's an epic feat that allows for additional chakra binds, which is why I suspect that Open Chakra was not intended to actually grant a chakra bind.
Says who?
In the Azurin description it says that Azurin are always one of the extreme alignments (which keeps them out of Incarnate). This isn't part of the "racial mechanics" section, so it gets skipped over a lot.
And maybe it should. I can't think of another PC-intended race that is explicitly prohibited from a specific alignment or a specific base class. It smacks of the old 1E mentality, or an editing oversight, and either way I'd toss it.
Try to be an azurin, if you can. Don't do Rogue 1 for Savage Tides: not worth it (I'm playing that campaign now w/ a Binder). Incarnate would be useful in that game: the Sailor soulmeld is awesome.
You can't be an Azurin Incarnate (at least by a strict reading of the rules). Azurin can never be Neutral and must have one of the extreme alignments (This is in the race description). That said, I could probably convince the DM to allow it. Do you think the 1 bonus essentia and bonus feat are worth more than d8 HP for 3 levels, free weapon prof/specialization in a martial weapon, the ability to share AC radiance with non-evil (instead of just good) and the good aligning of weapon attacks?
Since you're playing the game now, I'll go with your recommendation. The rogue was both for extra skills at first level as well as the trapfinding. I'm guessing there aren't a lot of traps, but I wonder if a 'skillful' class would be good. Alternatively I could do 2 levels of totemist for the totem bind and then 18 of Incarnate.
Harliquinn
People have often cited Open Chakra as allowing people to bind a soulmeld to that chakra even without getting a per-day quantity of binds from a class. But considering that all the incarnum classes explicitly limit how many soulmelds you can have bound at once, I'm not sure that this works. There's an epic feat that allows for additional chakra binds, which is why I suspect that Open Chakra was not intended to actually grant a chakra bind.
Well the Open Chakra only allows a bind to that particular chakra, no changing or benefits from an incarnum class either (expanded soulmeld capacity for instance). The epic feat just allows another free-floating chakra bind that benefits from the class's rules for binding chakra. The epic feat is still more powerful and general. I also noted that it seems Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat can be taken multiple times?
Alignment: Azurins are never neutral, instead favoring extreme alignments.
Even if you take that as an absolute rule (which is suspicious considering that it's flavor text rather than being listed in the mechanics), that only excludes TN azurins at most. Additionally, Sister Tara (sample Sapphire Hierarch) is both an azurin and a LN Incarnate.
Even if you take that as an absolute rule (which is suspicious considering that it's flavor text rather than being listed in the mechanics), that only excludes TN azurins at most. Additionally, Sister Tara (sample Sapphire Hierarch) is both an azurin and a LN Incarnate.
Well the rule also says they must be one of the extreme alignments and give the 4 examples (no mention ever of a part-neutral azurin). This isn't the same as the Skarn which say "tend towards lawful" or something, it says explicitly "are never neutral". Now it's not in the racial description, true, but I'm not aware of many other races (if any) with this type of restriction so it's possible it was omitted.
As for the example...it could be A) that Azurin's aren't as restricted as they say or B) one of the many cases of an example that doesn't follow the rules.
I agree it's probably rather silly to restrict them to those 4 alignments. That said, I still wonder if the bonus essentia of 1 and the feat are better than the aasimar substitution levels.
Harliquinn
Lawful Neutral, "Judge"
[snip]
Neutral, "Undecided"
[snip]
Chaotic Neutral, "Free Spirit"
Bolding mine.
"Always" Means +99% when it comes to alignments.
This is irrelevant, considering that that word is never used in the discussion of azurin alignments.
Alignment: Azurins are never neutral, instead favoring extreme alignments.
And the above quote demonstrates that "neutral" probably refers to the singular Neutral alignment, also known as True Neutral.
Alignment: Azurins are never neutral, instead favoring extreme alignments.
This is irrelevant, considering that that word is never used in the discussion of azurin alignments.And the above quote demonstrates that "neutral" probably refers to the singular Neutral alignment, also known as True Neutral.
While it probably refers to neutral alignment (I don't think true neutral is used in 3.5), it could be read (especially with the mention of extreme alignments and the explicit examples of the 4 such alignments) to mean they aren't allowed a neutral component to their alignment in either ethos or morality. However, I also feel that this restriction is unneeded and a bit silly so would tend to agree with the 'ignore' it part.
harliquinn
Harliquinn
I went home and re-read the book entry for Azurin. I think I am now at least more in the camp of "neutral is not allowed, but an alignment with only one neutral component is."
Harliquinn
Glad that you guys solved that dispute...
Now then: I realise that I might have sounded rather rude a few posts back and that I feel like I must apologize for! Really sorry for that one you guys...
It's the Internets!My character plans to be very 'good' but not always fitting within the laws (more of an avenging angel type personality). I plan to concentrate on the Incarnate Weapon, Lightning Gauntlets, Disrupting Gauntlets, and Dissolving Spittle for damage (some combination, depending upon what we are fighting). With the Aasimar substitution Weapon Focus (warhammer), a Strength of 12, and soulmelds, I think I can do decent supporting melee damage and good ranged with the spittle. As a tactic when needed, I could drop my Incarnate Weapon, touch with Lightning (against higher AC foes) and have the hammer appear in my hand next action (Though I won't threaten but that may be okay).
The other thing I need to decide is if I want to spend 2 feats to gain Wings (Celestial Bloodline feat [Which gives a few nice abilities] and Outsider Wings feat) which would look very cool, or to spend 1 feat and get Double Chakra (Feet) so I can bind Airstep Sandals and Cerulean Sandals. The Airstep only allow me to fly as a move action and I'd have to land. The Wings would enable me to fly all the time. I definitely want the Dimension Door ability of the Cerulean Sandals.
Race/Class: Aasimar (LA +0 version) / Incarnate
Stats: Str: 12, Dex: 14, Con: 15, Int: 14, Wis: 10, Cha: 12 (+2 from Aasimar)
(Thinking Ranger with Trap Expert alternate feature or Factotum since he grew up in a Church of St. Cuthbert)
Feats I want:
Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (at least once) 1st or 3rd
Bonus Essentia - 6th
Double Chakra (Arms) - 9th
Split Chakra (Soul) - 18th
Celestial Bloodline - Optional
Outsider Wings - Optional
It's been questionable whether the Open Chakra feats give you an 'extra' chakra to bind soulmelds to over your class allowances or not. If the DM rules it does, I will likely take 1-2 of those as well.
Other thoughts on this potential build? Suggestions on a 1st level class (The main reasons are that level 20 Incarnate isn't impressive to an existing outsider and was hoping to get more skill points and skills at 1st).
Harliquinn
There's a thread on the Future Release boards called Community Wishlist. It's a list of books people would like to see in the future.
However, there's about 6 or so WoTC in the thread.
So if your hoping for more incarnum support, I'd suggest hoping over and making your voice heard. I can only do so much alone! :P
The Necrocarnum Circlet soulmeld let’s you create a single zombie with max HD up to your meldshaper level when bound.
The Necrocarnum Zombie Master class ability lets you create a second zombie ... but the HD of either one can’t exceed your Necrocarnate level.
... So you can have one zombie who has anywhere between 1 & 20 HP, or have two who, have between 1 & 13 HD each.
Is the class ability a bit weak? Sure. But I’m thinking that two of the right 12-13 HD creatures couldn’t be that bad in some situations. Two Necrocarnum War Troll Zombies for instance might be OK.
Are there any binds that protect against electricity, cold, acid or sonic on the incarnate list, I don't see any in the IH.
Well planar chausible gives energy resistance that varies by alignment
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/pontelon/RPG/incarnumSHEET.gif
That should be an 8.5''x11'' sheet with a box for each Chakra points. Each box is surrounded by four .75'' circles(perfect size for pennies or decorative accent jewels(I bought a bag of them from the dollar store for damage counters for minis, so I have a lot laying around)). Each square is approximately 145 pixels wide(or about 2 inches). The goal is to make/print off these squares for each meld you want to focus on. The end result would be:
So basically, when you shape your melds, you'd put your squares on the paper in whatever chakra they are shaped to. Then you can have a number of pennies or jewels for your essentia. From there, you can move around and easily see your bonuses and switch them. I would recommend some way to differentiate binding it to the chakras.
What one could do for feats/class abilities/items/racial abilities is just print off another sheet and cross out the names and write in the info.
Anyway, just something I was working on for my next incarnate for simplified use, and figured someone else might get a use out of it. PM me suggestions if you think it could be improved.
I don’t see any conflict here.
The Necrocarnum Circlet soulmeld let’s you create a single zombie with max HD up to your meldshaper level when bound.
The Necrocarnum Zombie Master class ability lets you create a second zombie ... but the HD of either one can’t exceed your Necrocarnate level.
... So you can have one zombie who has anywhere between 1 & 20 HP, or have two who, have between 1 & 13 HD each.
Is the class ability a bit weak? Sure. But I’m thinking that two of the right 12-13 HD creatures couldn’t be that bad in some situations. Two Necrocarnum War Troll Zombies for instance might be OK.
I'd just like to point out what I feel makes this ability really strong.
1st, You can get a zombie at lvl 2. This is far earlier than any other class that I know of (except the unearthed arcana Necro specialist), and extremely powerful in the early levels.
2nd, there is no component cost other than a body, and can in theory be used an unlimited number of times per day. So any time one of yours is destroyed, you can animate the biggest badest thing your party defeated that day, and your good to go.
3rd, there is no hd limit to the creatures that can be made into zombies. Which means that they can scale for your entire career.
4th, they are a bit better than the standard zombie, in that they have intelligence, and have an essentia pool. With the ability to increase their speed, they can make great mounts.
So do I feel the ability is weak? Not at all. You are not always going to have a corpse available that are equal to your hd. So you may as well have more than one going. Heck, have the extra one be your mount. I've used an animated war horse on more than one occasion.
I'd just like to point out what I feel makes this ability really strong.
1st, You can get a zombie at lvl 2. This is far earlier than any other class that I know of (except the unearthed arcana Necro specialist), and extremely powerful in the early levels.
2nd, there is no component cost other than a body, and can in theory be used an unlimited number of times per day. So any time one of yours is destroyed, you can animate the biggest badest thing your party defeated that day, and your good to go.
3rd, there is no hd limit to the creatures that can be made into zombies. Which means that they can scale for your entire career.
4th, they are a bit better than the standard zombie, in that they have intelligence, and have an essentia pool. With the ability to increase their speed, they can make great mounts.
So do I feel the ability is weak? Not at all. You are not always going to have a corpse available that are equal to your hd. So you may as well have more than one going. Heck, have the extra one be your mount. I've used an animated war horse on more than one occasion.
I know!:D It's so ridiculously useful early on in the game. I stole a raven familiar from a wizard once and it proved to be an invaluable scout! A bear was a good fighter and a Pegasus an incredible mount, which made a deadly combination together with Lightning Gauntlets and Riding Bracers!
1st, You can get a zombie at lvl 2. This is far earlier than any other class that I know of (except the unearthed arcana Necro specialist), and extremely powerful in the early levels.
Just as a note, an illumian cleric or dread necromancer can also get a zombie at level 2. However, it's a bit of a build trick and is, as you note, rather powerful however you do it.
I know!:D It's so ridiculously useful early on in the game. I stole a raven familiar from a wizard once and it proved to be an invaluable scout! A bear was a good fighter and a Pegasus an incredible mount, which made a deadly combination together with Lightning Gauntlets and Riding Bracers!
Lightning Gauntlets are another gem early on. Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat, plus the Incarnate class ability, allows you to deal 4d6 touch attacks at lvl 3. This meld will more than last you in melee until you can afford a skillfull weapon. By then, you should be able to bind it anyways, making it stay usefull.
Lightning Gauntlets are another gem early on. Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat, plus the Incarnate class ability, allows you to deal 4d6 touch attacks at lvl 3. This meld will more than last you in melee until you can afford a skillfull weapon. By then, you should be able to bind it anyways, making it stay usefull.
Agreed. Useful AND cool! And it's nice to hear that there are more people than I who prefer Skill full weapons instead of shaping an Incarnate Weapon.
Mobilise!
old campaign data related to this post
OK, I just started in a new campaign last night, and wanted to make sure this looked like a decent plan. We started at 1st level, the Age of Worms path, and the other party members include:
Human Warblade (pure melee)
Human Cleric (focused on fighting, not healing)
Grey Elf Wizard (generalist, very weak physically)
Elf Rogue (who will no longer play in the game)
Azurin Incarnate (me!)
Just about any rulebooks are allowed, and feat retraining is allowed. Now, I was already intending to fill the Trapfinding role after 4th level, but now that the Rogue player has quit (he didn't fit well in the group), I'm afraid I'm going to have to try to meet that role sooner. We just leveled to 2nd, so I can redo feats and skill points. I want to stay either straight Incarnate, or take just 1-2 levels of Totemist after getting the Soul chakra.
Here's where I started:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats: Able Learner, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
Skills I've Maxed (2 points CC): Disable Device, Open Locks, Search, Sleight of Hand, Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot
I just leveled to 2nd. My future plans are to invest in listen, spot, dd, search, and looking at the following feats:
3 Shape Soulmeld (not sure; gotta make a decision)
6 Bonus Essentia
9 Double Chakra (probably hands; not sure)
12 Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
15 Shape Soulmeld (not sure)
18 Split Chakra (Soul)
I've got to make a decision about the Shape Soulmeld. I'd like the following (obviously may not get all of them):
Yrthak Mask (listen bonuses)
Shedu Crown (Telepathy at 3rd level!)
Disenchanter Mask (eventual Detect Magic for easier trapfinding)
Blood Talons (hide bonus + Die Hard)
Blink Shirt (teleport is fun!)
OK, IF I kill the current Rogue, and then raise it as a Necrocarnum Zombie, will it continue to be able to do trapfinding (it retains its Int, after all)? Also, any advice w/ choices or equipment? Does the feat selection look good?
Human Warblade (pure melee)
Human Cleric (focused on fighting, not healing)
Grey Elf Wizard (generalist, very weak physically)
Elf Rogue (who will no longer play in the game)
Azurin Incarnate (me!)
Just about any rulebooks are allowed, and feat retraining is allowed. Now, I was already intending to fill the Trapfinding role after 4th level, but now that the Rogue player has quit (he didn't fit well in the group), I'm afraid I'm going to have to try to meet that role sooner. We just leveled to 2nd, so I can redo feats and skill points. I want to stay either straight Incarnate, or take just 1-2 levels of Totemist after getting the Soul chakra.
Here's where I started:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats: Able Learner, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
Skills I've Maxed (2 points CC): Disable Device, Open Locks, Search, Sleight of Hand, Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot
I just leveled to 2nd. My future plans are to invest in listen, spot, dd, search, and looking at the following feats:
3 Shape Soulmeld (not sure; gotta make a decision)
6 Bonus Essentia
9 Double Chakra (probably hands; not sure)
12 Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
15 Shape Soulmeld (not sure)
18 Split Chakra (Soul)
I've got to make a decision about the Shape Soulmeld. I'd like the following (obviously may not get all of them):
Yrthak Mask (listen bonuses)
Shedu Crown (Telepathy at 3rd level!)
Disenchanter Mask (eventual Detect Magic for easier trapfinding)
Blood Talons (hide bonus + Die Hard)
Blink Shirt (teleport is fun!)
OK, IF I kill the current Rogue, and then raise it as a Necrocarnum Zombie, will it continue to be able to do trapfinding (it retains its Int, after all)? Also, any advice w/ choices or equipment? Does the feat selection look good?
The feat Ordered Chaos (FC1) states that:
Spells and effects that are keyed to alignment affect you as if you were chaotic, as well as your original alignment
The text goes on to give examples of this, including qualifying for a chaotic-only feat. This should allow a non-chaotic character to shape a [Chaotic] soulmeld.
This is an idea that I posted on another thread to partially circumvent the alignment restrictions on chatotic soulmelds.
The feat Ordered Chaos (FC1) states that:
The text goes on to give examples of this, including qualifying for a chaotic-only feat. This should allow a non-chaotic character to shape a [Chaotic] soulmeld.
If alignment is an issue (as it was w/ my character just above), then you can use the adaptation section. You remove the aura and detect opposition ability, and have to replace the Incarnum Radiance boost w/ some other class ability (doesn't suggest what), and get to use any alignment's soulmelds.
Speaking of which, does anybody have any ideas on a reasonable class ability replacement for Incarnum Radiance? There's tons of abilities in all the classes, but want something that wouldn't be overpowered, underpowered, and would still be fitting.
edit: Just came up with this, and I think it fits thematically. Don't replace the Incarnum Radiance ability, but instead each alignment-based ability becomes an "avatar" that the Incarnate is trying to emulate:
Evil -> Wraith (all damage bonuses)
Chaos -> The Hunter (all ranged bonuses)
Good -> The Guardian (all AC bonuses)
Law -> The Warrior (all to hit bonuses)
This also allows the character to not have to rework the "Incarnate" line of Soulmelds. Sound good? You still have to pick one at the start and stick with it, but you could really be a lot more party friendly.
If alignment is an issue (as it was w/ my character just above), then you can use the adaptation section. You remove the aura and detect opposition ability, and have to replace the Incarnum Radiance boost w/ some other class ability (doesn't suggest what), and get to use any alignment's soulmelds.
Speaking of which, does anybody have any ideas on a reasonable class ability replacement for Incarnum Radiance? There's tons of abilities in all the classes, but want something that wouldn't be overpowered, underpowered, and would still be fitting.
edit: Just came up with this, and I think it fits thematically. Don't replace the Incarnum Radiance ability, but instead each alignment-based ability becomes an "avatar" that the Incarnate is trying to emulate:
Evil -> Wraith (all damage bonuses)
Chaos -> The Hunter (all ranged bonuses)
Good -> The Guardian (all AC bonuses)
Law -> The Warrior (all to hit bonuses)
This also allows the character to not have to rework the "Incarnate" line of Soulmelds. Sound good? You still have to pick one at the start and stick with it, but you could really be a lot more party friendly.
NICE idea.
just pointing out a non-adaptation way to get access to soulmelds of multiple alignments. My first idea with the Ordered Chaos trick was to make a LN Cleric/Sapphire Hierarch Archer (yes, I realize Sapphire Hierarch has alignment removing adaptation). Besides, It's fun to be Contradiction Incarnate.
Would Far Shot double dissolving spittle's range?
Nope. Its not a thrown or ranged weapon.
Darn. Is there anything else, aside from Horizon Goggles, that would increase dissolving spittle's effective range?
Not really. Horizon Goggles are just about it. They are spell-like, though.
I realize there might be no answers to these questions, but...
Anyway, I was wanting to have a NG incarnate/psion (gestalt, and corrupted due to his storyline with the [evil] descriptor), and was wanting to use the necrocarnum circlet and a handful of companions to have a small army of undead. Can I use necrocarnum melds in this way even though I'm technically good?
Okay, then. Another question. I'm assuming the Share Soulmeld feat allows the sharing of a single soulmeld at a time, and that the sharing lasts throughout the whole day, so long as the familiar/animal companion/psicrystal stays within range. Is there any errata of any kind stating that you can share soulmelds with multiple companions (such as a wizard/psion/cerebremancer with an animal companion gained from a feat), and what the terms for such sharing would be? Does a companion gain the benefits of essentia invested, or of binding, and does the companion have to have the ability to invest essentia and bind the soulmeld itself?
I realize there might be no answers to these questions, but...
Anyway, I was wanting to have a NG incarnate/psion (gestalt, and corrupted due to his storyline with the [evil] descriptor), and was wanting to use the necrocarnum circlet and a handful of companions to have a small army of undead. Can I use necrocarnum melds in this way even though I'm technically good?
With the Necrocarnate Acolyte, you could do it as a LN or CN Incarnate. You can't take the feat as a good character.
In the adaptation section, you can take away the alignment requirements completely. See my adaptation suggestions a few posts above. You could do it with that.
On the Share Soulmeld: you can affect any number of familiar(s), special mount(s), or animal companion(s). They have to remain w/in 5' of you, and do not get any essentia benefit out of it as written: its as if they had taken the Shape Soulmeld feat as a non-essentia character (though it isn't perfectly clear wording).
Necrocarnum Circlet allows 1 undead to be acquired; Necrocarnate allows 2 undead at its capstone level. Realize that the Necrocarnum Zombie is really, really excellent. Consider a Cleric//Incarnate or Dread Necromancer // Incarnate if you really want an undead army and are stuck on playing an Incarnate.
With the Necrocarnate Acolyte, you could do it as a LN or CN Incarnate. You can't take the feat as a good character.
In the adaptation section, you can take away the alignment requirements completely. See my adaptation suggestions a few posts above. You could do it with that.
On the Share Soulmeld: you can affect any number of familiar(s), special mount(s), or animal companion(s). They have to remain w/in 5' of you, and do not get any essentia benefit out of it as written: its as if they had taken the Shape Soulmeld feat as a non-essentia character (though it isn't perfectly clear wording).
Necrocarnum Circlet allows 1 undead to be acquired; Necrocarnate allows 2 undead at its capstone level. Realize that the Necrocarnum Zombie is really, really excellent. Consider a Cleric//Incarnate or Dread Necromancer // Incarnate if you really want an undead army and are stuck on playing an Incarnate.
The DM has ruled that the [evil] descriptor is enough to qualify for PrCs, class abilities, and necrocarnum soulmelds for my NG character
He's also ruled that the Share Soulmeld feat gives my li'l psicrystal access to ALL my soulmelds, as well as invested essentia and chakra binds.
This is going to be one nice gestalt incarnate//erudite/thrallherd (to pick up armies of undead thralls/believers). Muahahahahahahahahaha!
The DM has ruled that the [evil] descriptor is enough to qualify for PrCs, class abilities, and necrocarnum soulmelds for my NG character
He's also ruled that the Share Soulmeld feat gives my li'l psicrystal access to ALL my soulmelds, as well as invested essentia and chakra binds.
This is going to be one nice gestalt incarnate//erudite/thrallherd (to pick up armies of undead thralls/believers). Muahahahahahahahahaha!
Sounds like fun!
@cheethorne: nope, that's it. There's a thread somewhere that serves as a petition for more Incarnum support, but it isn't bloody likely to ever happen.
The following assumes starting Con of 14, stat boosts to Con, +6 Con item at 13th level, average HP of 3.5 / level (max at 1st), and Improved Essentia Capacity in Lifebond Vestments.
The Draconic Mantle gives fast healing = essentia if below 1/2 life when bound on the Heart chakra.
[snip]
So, its easy to keep "charging up" with fast healing to be able to heal everyone (albeit once per hour).
Or healing everyone (including yourself) at will by binding Lifebond Investments on your heart chakra instead? Besides, Draconic Mantle requires a feat (it's not on the Incarnate list, and Vitality Belt is only on the Incarnate list). Lifebond Investments in contrast requires no feat for incarnates.
It's useful on its own for totemists and soulborns, but not so great that it necessarily warrants a feat for anyone else. Though Elder Spirit's crown bind and Crystal Body (psionic power) from that book are good, too.
Wasn't this already in the combos thread?
Oh, maybe... I haven't looked in a while. plz disregard if thats the case.
When Incarnum came out, I looked at it, and decided that doing this level of analysis would take way too much of my time, so I passed on getting the book.
I might have to pick it up now. =)
Also keep in mind, you have to be of the Dragon subtype to use them. One day I will play around with a Kobald totemist, lol.
Dragonborn make great incarnates, with their +2 con.
Aside from Magic of Incarnum, Dragon Magic, and a Mind's Eye article, is there any other official source of Soulmelds, such as from a Dragon or Dungeon article?
Sorry for the thread necro, but I just found this thread, and this post caught my eye...
There are three new totemist soulmelds in Dragon 350, December 2006. They're based off monsters from the Monster Manual II & III: Brood Keeper's Heart (Brood Keeper, MMIII), Chaos Roc's Span (MMII), and Gravorg Tail (MMII). Not much, but it's a little bit extra.
Any tips on playing a 4-6 level Warforged Evil Incarnate aiming for Necrocarnate? I'll be going with Adamantine Body, but I'm not quite sure what else to do with the class - I just like the idea.
The basic gist of low level evil incarnates is to smack stuff with your zombie.
I've been working on this one character.
Feral dwarf
(retrain ability scores to not be retarded, though 8 charisma is okay, the template is for power reasons in a LA buyoff game)
By using a liberal definition of the word craft, meaning create, you can use incarnate weapon, with ironsoulforgemaster
so start with 4 incarnate, then take 1 crusader, to pickup
4 incarnate, obvious what you get
1 crusader
Steely resolve 5, furious counterstrike, Irongaurds glare, foehammer, shield block, mountain hammer, battle leaders charge, vanguard strike
10 ironsoul forgemaster for shieldbond, armor bond, and weapon bond
5 more incarnate (more soulmelds/essentia)
Make sure your shield, and armor are soulbonded (not greater, which is an absolute waste, and should die, as a normal enhancement is better... lesser soulbond is where its at)
That way you can double dip for AC.
Feats-
flw Cerulean reflexes (for essentia)
flw Expanded soulmeld capacity(incarnate weapon)
1 Cerulean fortitude (for essentia)
3 cerulean will (for essentia)
6 Bonus essentia (for essentia)
9 expanded soulmeld capacity (spellward shirt)
12 cobalt critical (for essentia)
15 azure toughness (for essentia)
18 necrocarnum adept
Craft a mithril heavy shield, adamantine mechanus gear, and use your incarnate weapon as your weapon.
By using your incarnate weapon as your weapon, and using weapon bond, you get 3x invested essentia to damage, and 1x to damage, with an automatic daze (save negates) on every hit.
Use your tome of battle maneuvers to strike well, while still keeping mobility
What I really like about this build, except 1 level in crusader, the entire build uses one book for character abilities, including feats.
The reason I took so many essentia feats is this build really needs it, dumping 7 into incarnate weapon (law)(focused), 5 into armor(5dr) (no focus), and 5 into shield (resist all 25)(no focus), 7 into spellward shirt(focused), 5 into incarnate avatar (no focus)(law), vitality belt(when you don't need so much in resistances or dr, or can lower SR, to boost hp)
29 essentia total, 29 used
With an armor crystal and adamantine armor
13dr
25 energy resist
33 SR
daze on hit, with moderate damage
irongaurds glare to force the issue of being a tank
If you go epic, incarnate has 11 more levels of nonepicitity for essentia, which at that point, you can just switch over to totemist, or iridescent champion or something
If you use the alignment adaption, you could swap a couple levels of incarnate near the end for vivacarnate, or even necrocarnate
for the link:D
Incarnate is a really interesting class, I must say
I also really like ironsoul forgemaster... one of the best tanking classes I've seen.
So I'm getting
dwarf
4 incarnate
vitality belt
lifebond vestment
incarnate weapon
lightning gauntlets (bound to hands)
with expanded soulmeld capacity (incarnate weapon), and cerulean reflexes, I have 5 essentia, which I can spend 3 on incarnate weapon, and 2 on the gauntlets, swapping to the other 2 as nessessary (when I'm dieing, for example)
Anyone have any input?
so I've been asked to play in a L4 game, now flaws, PHB+completes+ph2+1book of choice
So I'm getting
dwarf
4 incarnate
vitality belt
lifebond vestment
incarnate weapon
lightning gauntlets (bound to hands)
with expanded soulmeld capacity (incarnate weapon), and cerulean reflexes, I have 5 essentia, which I can spend 3 on incarnate weapon, and 2 on the gauntlets, swapping to the other 2 as nessessary (when I'm dieing, for example)
Anyone have any input?
Lightning Gauntlets is kind of weak. It only triggers 1/round, and is Electricity damage (3rd most common energy type to be resistant to), and the only other way you can use it requires a Standard action (as opposed to an Attack action, which would allow for multiple uses). Couple this with the fact that it is a Melee Touch Attack, and you have a fairly weak meld.
I prefer binding the Weapon to the Arms Chakra, and keeping it charged prior to entering combat. Then, when you get that first charge off, it ends up being a relatively solid way to mess with the enemy. But you won't be able to do that until a little later on.
Really, either the Airstep Sandals, Impulse Boots, or Crystal Helm works better. I prefer having the following:
Incarnate Avatar
Incarnate Weapon
Crystal Helm
Spellward Shirt
Those make for a very solid tank, even at the lower levels. Couple this with the Radiance ability and you can leave the Weapon completely empty until you start missing a lot (it will vary based on your alignment). Maxing out the Spellward Shirt will prevent enemy mages from getting the spells off that often (with an Essentia cap of 3 at 4th level, that is SR 17. More with either Awaken SR and Dragonwrought or Evil and Boost SR).
Assuming you are NG, invest as much as possible into the Weapon. Let the Radiance act as your AC buffer when it is needed, so don't trigger it right off the bat in the first combat. If you need AC, invest in the Helm and Avatar, and wield a Shield. Incarnates can get a notorious AC at the lower levels with only one or two feats involved, so you can tank very well despite the d6 HD. SR means you won't be as vulnerable to spells, but it isn't fool-proof.
If you are LN, I'd use the same ones, but invest everything I can into the Weapon and Avatar. 3 points in each (attainable through taking Expanded Soulmeld Capacity twice and getting two other feats that grant Essentia) will be a +6 to attack rolls with the weapon, and a +3 bonus on damage. With an 18 Str, this means your total attack bonus will be +11, much higher than it needs to be. Flanking and Radiance adds another +3, so you will be hitting more often than the entire party, while still having a decent defense up. This works better with Human or Azurin, but the Dwarf still gets a +10 at 4th.
If you are Chaotic (why, is beyond me), then shape Dissolving Spittle and go to town with 4d6 Acid damage each round. Nothing to sneeze at, and it makes the Warlock cry.
If you are Evil, use the Avatar and the Weapon, but Bind the Bloodwar Gauntlets instead. You can easily boost your damage output into the mid-20s low-30s with it. Drop the Helm and focus solely on offense.
I understand this typically doesn't make sense, but in combat, as is, I will have 4 soulmelds with a capacity of 2 each, with 6 essentia. One of them is lifebond vestments, so that doesn't need continous essentia. Doing it this way allows me to maxout the essentia in all 3 of my 'combat' soulmelds
I was going to bind the lightning gauntlets to my hands, allowing me to combine it with any mellee attack (in this case, my incarnate weapon) At L4, I only have 1 mellee attack, so the 1/round thing doesn't matter too much, and at L5 I'm gaining a level of crusader, which will further cement the 1/round thing not mattering.
I am going to use the adaption, play chaotic good, and use the warhammer incarnate weapon (I'm roleplaying a dwarven armor smith).
At L4, 1 attack per round, 1d8+4 physical, with 2d6 electrical damage.
I decided to drop vitality belt and pick up spellward shirt.
Spellward shirt, incarnate weapon, lightning gauntlets, lifebond vestment
At L5 I gain crusader, at L6 I gain ironsoul forgemaster, with bonus essentia making my essentia total 8
At 6, I also gain shieldward, which is effectively another soulmeld... a really powerful one, worth investing a couple essentia in. I will also soulbond my shield, to boost ac when essentia is in it. That comes at L7.
I get your point about the electricity being frequently resisted, but I can always reshape to something else later. At this point, its the best bang for the buck.
So binding lightning gauntlets to hands isn't all that odd. Also its 1d6+1 per essentia
L6 outlook for me
4d6, 1d10, 1d8 hd
8 essentia
4 soulmelds, plus shield bond
essentia capacity 3
5 tome of battle maneuvers, plus 1 tome of battle stance
maneuvers chosen, foehammer, mountain hammer, crusaders strike, shield block, and battle leaders charge
stance chosen, iron gaurd glare
This setup, I could put 4 out of my 4 melds at 2/3rd essentia capacity, and still function well. If I need to, I can drop my lightning gauntlets down to 1 essentia, and boost attack+melleedamage rolls by 1, sr by 4, or energy resist by 5
Also, if I'm having a really hard time hitting something, at L5, I could go 3 essentia into lightning gauntlets, 3 into shield bond, and 2 into spellward shirt, and just blast things for 4d6 electricity
this remarkable resource...