Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 phoenixnemo Mar 03, 2008 6:21:01	a lot of ppl feel like races as the half-minotaur in some dragon magazine are broken (and i actually agree) but when i saw the maug (fiend folio) and then the incarnate construct template (savage species), broken-ness aquired a totally new meaning to me. so applying to incarnate construct to a maug you can get with only a +1LA all this: Maug incarnate construct large giant +1 LA str+10 dex+4 con+0 int+2 wis+0 cha+2 +7 natural armor speed 40 feet favored class: fighter only +1 LA!!! (yes it has 2 giant HD, but still it's insane) i know most of you know this perfectly, but it's still so broken i wanted to post it for some comments, and for who still didn't know it.
#2 hogarth Mar 03, 2008 8:09:01	Well, an incarnate maug is certainly much better than a Lizardfolk or a Gnoll (both 2 HD, +1 LA) and a bit better than a Half-Ogre (no HD, +2 LA); it's maybe on a par with a Half-Dragon (no HD, +3 LA). I don't know if I'd use the word "broken", though.
#3 ChristopherGroves Mar 03, 2008 8:15:01	It looses all those wonderful construct and living construct traits. Not worth it at all.
#4 phoenixnemo Mar 03, 2008 8:16:12	since +1 LA is so easy to buy off, as far as i see it it's like getting a 2 lvl class (giant), that gives 2d8 HD +1 BAB and str+10 dex+4 con+0 int+2 wis+0 cha+2 +7 natural armor speed 40 feet wouldn't you get it?
#5 rebel7284 Mar 03, 2008 8:21:36	Two giant hit dice is still NOT class HD, that's why a half minotaur is still a bunch better (not to mention that it gives a CON boost which is great for a character with LA... and a natural attack... and scent... YA). Edit: with that said, the maug as presented is certainly not horrible for a fighter or barbarian.
#6 phoenixnemo Mar 03, 2008 8:26:59	mmhh, i understand... well, most campaigns (like the ones i play) don't allow dragon magazine material... and as far as i looked, the incarnate construct MAUG is one of the best Large races for fighters (note the favored class) but yes, i understand the point.
#7 ChristopherGroves Mar 03, 2008 8:30:48	In general, giant or humanoid hit dice are worse than class levels. Even if you buy off the LA, you're stuck with those. Of course, if you just want to be a hulking hurler or warhulk ... it's not a bad option.
#8 phoenixnemo Mar 03, 2008 8:37:05	that's true... then what would u suggest as a large (or powerfull build) race for a fighter intense build? (ofc large is preferred over powerfull build, and favored class fighter is needed too) the only one i found is the maug... maybe i'm missing some one. for example if you want to play a dungeon crasher, with some dips in warblade and crusader, you couldn't play goliath or half-giant, for the favored class problem...and the maug bonuses to stats seem worth the 2 giant HD to me... ofc i might be wrong
#9 ChristopherGroves Mar 03, 2008 8:47:11	It might be a very good option for something like that. Remember you can throw Dragonborn on just about anything to get Fighter as a favored class. The wings are handy for jump checks, breath weapon is handy and senses are nice option too. -2 dex, +2 con.
#10 atomickitkat Mar 03, 2008 9:03:55	Only time Half Ogre is better is with buy-off. Otherwise, Incarnate Maug is pretty much the you-know-what for Large Fighters.
#11 phoenixnemo Mar 03, 2008 9:09:29	where is the half-ogre from? EDIT nvm found it.
#12 sinfire_titan Mar 03, 2008 11:22:16	Incarnate Construct Warforged can get pretty damn scary if you apply the right templates to it before the IC hits it. Not much that can be applied, IIRC Dark or Multiheaded are good options for it. And you can always apply the templates after acquiring the Giant type, which opens up more options.
#13 runedk Mar 04, 2008 5:17:30	Hi phoenixnemo, I'd aprreciate if you would point me to the rules that you used to convert the str 20, dex15, con -, int 13, wis 11, cha 12 of the Maug to the bonuses you present?
#14 Xeraph Mar 04, 2008 5:26:42	Look in your Savage Species. Incarnate Construct template.
#15 phoenixnemo Mar 04, 2008 5:27:09	Hi phoenixnemo, I'd aprreciate if you would point me to the rules that you used to convert the str 20, dex15, con -, int 13, wis 11, cha 12 of the Maug to the bonuses you present? sure, from page 9 of the fiend folio: To determine any creature's racial ability adjustments, subtract 10 from any even-numbered ability score and subtract 11 from any odd-numbered score.
#16 Xeraph Mar 04, 2008 5:33:54	Damn. Just looked at the Yuan-i Template from the same book. Broodguards get this: Type changes to Monstrous Humanoid +2 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Int, -4 Wis 2 claws (1d2) 1 bite (1d3) Rage once per day, like a Barbarian Immunity to Charm and Hold spells. LA +0 Pretty damn nifty if you ask me.
#17 green_eyes Mar 04, 2008 8:04:56	Check for catches. Yuan-Ti templates always have some kind of goo attached to them.
#18 Xeraph Mar 04, 2008 8:10:38	Check for catches. Yuan-Ti templates always have some kind of goo attached to them. -4 to int and cha?
#19 green_eyes Mar 04, 2008 8:13:03	Nah, not that. Something like free dominate attached to white dragonspawn.
#20 runedk Mar 04, 2008 8:16:34	sure, from page 9 of the fiend folio: To determine any creature's racial ability adjustments, subtract 10 from any even-numbered ability score and subtract 11 from any odd-numbered score. Thank you.
#21 Xeraph Mar 04, 2008 8:30:44	Nah, not that. Something like free dominate attached to white dragonspawn. . broodguard
#22 phoenixnemo Mar 04, 2008 8:35:50	broodguards do not wear armor... does that mean u can't ever wear armor? if it is like that it's an horrible penalty for a warrior-like character... anyway, what we are actually looking for in this thread is large/powerfull build races/templates with fighter as favored class...(that are worth taking) goliath and half giant with the dragonborn template is a nice solution... incarnate construct maug, is another one despite the 2 giant HD... any other suggestions?
#23 atomickitkat Mar 04, 2008 9:58:12	Half-Ogre. If you can lose the LA through buyoff, it beats out Powerful Build as well as Maug(Maug will have better skills though, I think).
#24 phoenixnemo Mar 04, 2008 10:03:19	half-ogres are not bad, they don't have the fighter favored class, but that can be resolved with the dragonborn template.
#25 surreal Mar 04, 2008 13:57:57	I feel like slapping the primordial giant template on the incarnate maug.
#26 phoenixnemo Mar 05, 2008 2:25:57	I feel like slapping the primordial giant template on the incarnate maug. where is that from?
#27 adslahnit Mar 05, 2008 2:37:48	I feel like slapping the primordial giant template on the incarnate maug. I think Primordial Giant is an inherited template, so you can't add it because Incarnate Construct is an acquired template. Even if you could add Primordial Giant to an Incarnate Maug, I don't see why you'd want to do so, because the Primordial Giant template gives you slightly increased magic potential in exchange for melee combat ability. The -4 Strength hurts. where is that from? The Primordial Giant template can be found in Secrets of Xen'drik.
#28 nebo Mar 05, 2008 7:37:56	Those two giant HD aren't so bad if you have initiator class levels. The two HD counts an initiator level which helps to mitigate the suck.
#29 direfrostwolf Jun 10, 2008 21:52:39	one question about the incarnate maug? if i put that template on it, then wouldn't it loose the ability to use grafts? cause those are the ones that call my attention (rollers... )
#30 brainpiercing Jun 11, 2008 1:43:22	one question about the incarnate maug? if i put that template on it, then wouldn't it loose the ability to use grafts? cause those are the ones that call my attention (rollers... ) Since all special attacks and special qualities are lost you probably lose the grafts that you already have by strict RAW. Although it doesn't make much sense (and as a DM I would probably change this aspect of the IC template). You can probably still add grafts, since it doesn't say you can't apply maug grafts to non-maugs. They are just not that great, IMHO, the best being the shoving arm and the spitter. One minor addition: Since you create Incarnate constructs with a spell, you could cast this maximised to get a defined 18 Con. Which isn't great, but better than nothing. Probably a lot of DMs won't allow this, at least not if it's supposed to NOT count against the point-buy. When you roll characters I see no problem with it. (The same as when playing awakened plants or undead or something like that.)
#31 friendlyfrog Jun 11, 2008 5:30:46	One thing about the giant HD maugs have has to be mentioned: they get skill points as if they were outsiders. That makes having them pretty OK in my book, even if class levels would be better.