Each nugget has a 50% chance of adding +2 CL to necromancy spells when used as a material component.
Collect nuts.
Win.
This looks like the same sort of thing as having lots of the same orange ioun stone floating around. Do those stack?
Unnamed bonus, should stack (expecially at 30k a pop).
Unnamed bonus, should stack (expecially at 30k a pop).
Not from the same (named) source.
Not from the same (named) source.
Two different items, two different sources - or at least, that's how I see it.
Two different items, two different sources - or at least, that's how I see it.
Two different items with identical effects=same source.
Now, if you named each Ioun stone something different, then maybe you would have a good argument.
I can picture this now:
Epic Wizard: So, my caster level is insanely high due to these Ioun Stones.
DM: Now, how did this work again?
EW: Well, the rules say that the same bonus from the same source doesn't stack. But I'm not using the same source, since only one of these is called an "Orange Ioun Stone". The one next to it is called "Fred", the one opposite of him is "Eric", the one chasing "Orange Ioun Stone" is called "Joseph", and the one across from him is called "Wabbajack".
DM: ...
Two different items with identical effects=same source.
Now, if you named each Ioun stone something different, then maybe you would have a good argument.
I can picture this now:
Epic Wizard: So, my caster level is insanely high due to these Ioun Stones.
DM: Now, how did this work again?
EW: Well, the rules say that the same bonus from the same source doesn't stack. But I'm not using the same source, since only one of these is called an "Orange Ioun Stone". The one next to it is called "Fred", the one opposite of him is "Eric", the one chasing "Orange Ioun Stone" is called "Joseph", and the one across from him is called "Wabbajack".
DM: ...
I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not convinced, I'll explain why: lets say you take your Ioun Stone, and craft it into a Vest so it's now using a slot (for a cheaper price of 15k, too) - would it stack, since it's two different items?
If your answer is yes, then you're not consistent - it's effectively the same item, using different slots (or slotless, as it may be).
If your answer is no, then two items that give the same unnamed bonus shouldn't stack together by the same precident.
EDIT: Realized I explained it badly. Pretty much your interpretation means that either you're inconsistent (ie if you say the same effect on a different item stacks) or no unnamed bonuses stack with itself, and neither is a good ruling.
I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not convinced, I'll explain why: lets say you take your Ioun Stone, and craft it into a Vest so it's now using a slot (for a cheaper price of 15k, too) - would it stack, since it's two different items?
If your answer is yes, then you're not consistent - it's effectively the same item, using different slots (or slotless, as it may be).
If your answer is no, then two items that give the same unnamed bonus shouldn't stack together by the same precident.
EDIT: Realized I explained it badly. Pretty much your interpretation means that either you're inconsistent (ie if you say the same effect on a different item stacks) or no unnamed bonuses stack with itself, and neither is a good ruling.
What are the prerequisites for this hypothetical vest? The same as the prerequisites for the orange prism ioun stone?
If so, it's the same effect.
This looks like the same sort of thing as having lots of the same orange ioun stone floating around. Do those stack?
Neither stack.
Multiple nuts won't grant multiple +2 CL.
Multiple Ioun Stones won't grant multiple +1 CL.
All are from the same source, and don't stack in 3.5 without the DM house ruling in his world.
Much as I distrust CustServ... they have said fairly consistently that Orange Ioun Stones stack. Cheese, yes... high cost notwithstanding. Houseruled out in my game, yes. But RAW... yes. So nuts = probably RAW.
Not true. As for your RAW statement, the only way to read it RAW is they don't/can't stack. There isn't any way to read it they do. Some may read it that way, by ignoring the same source stacking rules.
Can you gain the benefit of multiple Ioun Stones?
Discussion Thread
Response (Support Agent) 03/12/2008 11:31 AM
James,
Ioun Stones follow the same rules for same source stacking limits for magic item bonuses as other items do. You could only get +1 Caster Level in this way. Please let me know if you have any more questions!
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Subject
Orange Ious Stones
Discussion Thread
Response (Support Agent) 02/18/2008 12:24 PM
**********,
The +1 Caster Level bonus from and Orange Ioun Stone is an untyped bonus and thus it will stack with itself.
Good Gaming!
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Yes, we could start quote wars, but there's no point.
It becomes a matter of interpretation, to a certain extent, but RAW it's an unnamed bonus, which stacks, and from two different sources. You can't really say that 2 orange ioun stones are 1 orange ioun stone. So there is a legitimate argument for orange ioun stone stacking, which would apply to... umm... necro-nuts?
:D As it happens, I think practically it would be stupid to have them stack, so in my games they don't. But I do recognize that there is a legitimate argument out there which hasn't been resolved to anybody's satisfaction.
It becomes a matter of interpretation, to a certain extent, but RAW it's an unnamed bonus, which stacks, and from two different sources
Again, by RAW it comes from the same source and doesn't stack unnamed, untyped or not.
RAW is not some blob, it comes from text. I have text saying same sources don't stack. You can't cast two spells that grant an untyped bonus to a skill and expect to gain 2x the bonus any more than you can get two Orange stones and expect double the CL improvement.
In short, you can't claim RAW is on your side. All you have is a properly worded Custserv question to support your interpretation.
Even if you obtained them from different vendors, they no longer are the same, and would stack.
Nuts are made from different people, thus are different sources, then they stack.
Ah, but if one was an Orange Ioun Stone (normal), and the other was an Orange Ioun Stone with the combined effect that it let you use Detect Magic as a SLA 1/day, then they would stack, by the same logic.
Even if you obtained them from different vendors, they no longer are the same, and would stack.
Nuts are made from different people, thus are different sources, then they stack.
False on both accounts. Two Orange stones, one with an added ability and one without the added ability would still contribute +1 CL from the same source.
The only way to make them stack involves DM item creation and here is an example:
1) DM makes new items with a different name; such as Aquapink Ioun Stone with +1 CL and uses a different spell in the item creation (a bad idea for some items like +1 CL but not bad for other items.)
2) DM rules that he ignores the same source stacking rules and allows them to stack (a universal bad idea.)
Nuts are not different sources, they are made the same way and the source of the person doesn't matter. So Nuts are same source regardless of the number of different people you used to make the nuts.
Two Orange stones, one with an added ability and one without the added ability would still contribute +1 CL from the same source.
That's where we disagree; the rest is just stating your stance, which I respect. They are absolutely different items imo. I don't think it should ever be used as two items, but I feel that this falls under "house rules everyone uses".
Again, by RAW it comes from the same source and doesn't stack unnamed, untyped or not.
RAW is not some blob, it comes from text. I have text saying same sources don't stack. You can't cast two spells that grant an untyped bonus to a skill and expect to gain 2x the bonus any more than you can get two Orange stones and expect double the CL improvement.
In short, you can't claim RAW is on your side. All you have is a properly worded Custserv question to support your interpretation.
I'll go ahead and say that I agree with you; the rocks don't stack with other rocks, and the nuts don't stack with other nuts.
However, looking at "Combining Magical Effects", I see this list:
- Multiple instances of the same spell (overlap)
- Multiple instances of the same bonus type (overlap)
- Multiple bonuses of different types (stack)
- Unnamed bonuses (stack)
- Same effect more than once at different strengths (overlap)
What I don't see:
- Multiple instances of the same item
- The same effect more than once at equal strengths
So, if you really want to get technical, the only rule in the book that actually applies to using two orange ioun stones is the rule for an unnamed bonus, which "stacks with any bonus".
So, if you really want to get technical, the only rule in the book that actually applies to using two orange ioun stones is the rule for an unnamed bonus, which "stacks with any bonus".
While ignoring the rules on stacking that say nothing from the same source stacks?
PHB p313 under "stacks" and "modifiers".
+1 CL from divine
+1 CL from "Increased Mojo"
+1 CL from "insight"
While I can't find this specified for caster level, examples given in the DMG for stats like AC and save bonuses allow for "other" to be random sources like profane, sacred, luck, with the possibilities of just about anything. (DMG 285)
Now If you want your players to commission the same items made with different bonuses and actually name each, then go ahead. If you concede that what I said works, it's only for convenience that they become unnamed bonuses, rather than 13 named ones.
While ignoring the rules on stacking that say nothing from the same source stacks?
PHB p313 under "stacks" and "modifiers".
Oddly enough, according to page 310, a "modifier" is always applied to a die roll, so that +1 caster level technically isn't a "modifier" by that definition. (It could still be a bonus though; while some bonuses are modifiers, not all of them necessarily are.)
I can't quote text, but from what i understood unnamme bonuses is that they are considered as "other" type of bonus. From the view point of custom item creation, that means you could name your bonus type anything.
+1 CL from divine
+1 CL from "Increased Mojo"
+1 CL from "insight"
While I can't find this specified for caster level, examples given in the DMG for stats like AC and save bonuses allow for "other" to be random sources like profane, sacred, luck, with the possibilities of just about anything. (DMG 285)
Now If you want your players to commission the same items made with different bonuses and actually name each, then go ahead. If you concede that what I said works, it's only for convenience that they become unnamed bonuses, rather than 13 named ones.
Well, since there aren't any rules to support what you said, there's no reason for use to accept it. Luck, insight, sacred, profane, and unnamed are all bonuses that (unless I'm mistaken) can be found in the core books. Thanks to Rule 0, A DM could say that an "unnamed" bonus is simply a named bonus with an unusually esoteric name. But that's not how it's described in the rules, and the CharOp boards are more or less in the habit of sticking to the rules as closely as possible.
Well, since there aren't any rules to support what you said, there's no reason for use to accept it. Luck, insight, sacred, profane, and unnamed are all bonuses that (unless I'm mistaken) can be found in the core books. Thanks to Rule 0, A DM could say that an "unnamed" bonus is simply a named bonus with an unusually esoteric name. But that's not how it's described in the rules, and the CharOp boards are more or less in the habit of sticking to the rules as closely as possible.
Sorry, that's pretty much what I meant, except much less well said.
I was basing what I said that when crafting custom objects and applying stat modifiers such as AC and saves, there were allowed for "other" sources. I could not find any limitations to what they could be, and perhaps made the wrongful assumption that they could be whatever and however ridiculous as wanted. Since CL was not one of the stat modifiers, this is not an applicable ruling, but it seemed to be rather similar.
It's one of my flaws to try to reason things rather than as per RAW, and I apologize.
Stones/Nuts provide an unnamed (thus stackable) bonus. However, they may or may not stack with each other due to other stacking imposed on same spell effects.
That is a point I am not even going to touch on other than bringing them to notice.
Q&A from my mind.
On the point of naming your stone "Bob", would it stack?
No. Not only can you name your abilities whatever you want, but the PHB/DMG even contains flavor of doing so. What you call it has nothing to do with the rules call it.
On the point of making a +1 CL vest, would it stack?
Yes. First, both are unnamed bonuses to an uncapped area. See also my comments on the next question.
Would from a nut and a stone stack?
Yes. The bonus to CL is unnamed so no claim of only the higher may apply. Both bonuses are from different types of objects and provide different bonuses. The only thing that can be found relating these to objects together is they are magical items. It would seem everyone believes magical items stack in with each other and with spells (SA/Bardic/Turn boosters anyone?) provided the bonuses them selves stack.
I think this thread is arguing over a few things using the same points against a few of those things.
Stones/Nuts provide an unnamed (thus stackable) bonus. However, they may or may not stack with each other due to other stacking imposed on same spell effects.
That is a point I am not even going to touch on other than bringing them to notice.
Q&A from my mind.
On the point of naming your stone "Bob", would it stack?
No. Not only can you name your abilities whatever you want, but the PHB/DMG even contains flavor of doing so. What you call it has nothing to do with the rules call it.
On the point of making a +1 CL vest, would it stack?
Yes. First, both are unnamed bonuses to an uncapped area. See also my comments on the next question.
Would from a nut and a stone stack?
Yes. The bonus to CL is unnamed so no claim of only the higher may apply. Both bonuses are from different types of objects and provide different bonuses. The only thing that can be found relating these to objects together is they are magical items. It would seem everyone believes magical items stack in with each other and with spells (SA/Bardic/Turn boosters anyone?) provided the bonuses them selves stack.
The question wasn't over wether a Nut and an Ioun Stone stack, it was wether two Nuts stack - the point was made that if they stacked then two Ioun Stones stacked. Everyone is in agreement that a Nut and a Stone stack, but not wether two Nuts or Two Stones stack.
It comes down to "Same Source" (two different items are two different sources or not) and if the stacking rules specify items - they only talk about Bonuses and Spells.