Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
w00tmanx
Apr 11, 2008 21:53:46 Okay, the optimized build is Wizard 3/MS 10/Iot7fV 7. But with the advent of CC and Spontaneous Divination, is losing 2 levels of MS worth it? Just curious.
#2
logicninja
Apr 11, 2008 22:06:05 Spontaneous Divination is amazingtastic. Take Wiz 5; you may or may not want to cut Master Specialist out entirely if you're not getting the 10th level ability. If you do want Master Specialist 7, that leaves room for Archmage 1 and Arcane Reach.
#3
w00tmanx
Apr 11, 2008 22:56:19 So my current build is this: Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 4/Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil 7. Here's the major question: Do I take Archmage at ECL 16 or 17? Obviously, at 16 will bump Initiate 7 to 17. Either is fine, though I guess I just need to decide if I want Irresistible Dance with 30' ranged touch now or later. Any thoughts?

Edit: Also, is there anything that I could trade my familiar away for or do you think it will be too valuable?
#4
psishin
Apr 12, 2008 1:08:55
Okay, the optimized build is Wizard 3/MS 10/Iot7fV 7. But with the advent of CC and Spontaneous Divination, is losing 2 levels of MS worth it? Just curious.

What book is CC? complete champion?
#5
w00tmanx
Apr 12, 2008 22:04:22 Yes.
#6
bejik
Apr 28, 2008 12:51:52 Don't count out MS entirely just cause you can't take 10th level, the other esoterica are good too and work any time you cast your specialist school spells instead of 3/day. On the subject of familiars my advice is always to *never* get rid of them. They may seem like a liability but they can do so many things. The trick is to find ways to make them workable. There are a couple of WotC web-spells that let you add certain templates to a familiar which can be great. If your DM will allow it there are always ways to invent spells that go along with that theme. But even using just the material in various books and not inventing spells familiars are a great asset in enough situations that I would suggest keeping it. On the subject of Archmage I'd say the IotSV level is higher priority. That's my opinions at least, your mileage may vary.
#7
eldariel
Apr 28, 2008 21:39:55 The major boon of Master Specialist for IotSV is that it not only has the same entry prerequisites, but over 3 levels, it grants the two remaining prerequisite feats! Since you can't enter Initiate before level 10 anyways (due to skills), you can afford those 5 levels in Wizard and 4 in Master Specialist before Initiate. Master Specialist is good, but Spontaneous Divination might just be strong enough to skip MS for. Remember that you can't go with an epic progression immediately on 21 if you don't finish MS. Then again, since most games don't go on Epic and you still get Epic Spellcasting on 21 on your standard epic feat, it's not that much of an issue.

Other good use for the 5th level is Domain Granted Power (there're a few very much worth it depending on what you're doing), but it's hard to beat Spontaneous Divination.
#8
w00tmanx
Apr 28, 2008 22:26:04 I looked at MS and it's not worth giving up Spontaneous Divination. It's just. That. Good.
#9
alphathegreat
Apr 28, 2008 23:07:36 All that aside, if you're already committed to Wiz5/MAO4/IoSV7, then yes Archmage would definitely be great for the rest of your levels.
#10
wih
Apr 29, 2008 0:45:38
All that aside, if you're already committed to Wiz5/MAO4/IoSV7, then yes Archmage would definitely be great for the rest of your levels.

I'd be more inclined towards Wiz5/MS3/MAO4/IoSV7/Arch1. Arcane reach is the only really good one there (sure, the others are good...but not that good), and 3 levels of Master Specialist will give 2 bonus feats along with a bunch of other class abilities.
Personally, if I were taking the build I just put up, I'd take Archmage as quick as possible. Not having to be next to someone to touch them with a spell means survivability, which is what you need to get to the next level.
#11
alphathegreat
Apr 29, 2008 13:55:35
I'd be more inclined towards Wiz5/MS3/MAO4/IoSV7/Arch1. Arcane reach is the only really good one there (sure, the others are good...but not that good), and 3 levels of Master Specialist will give 2 bonus feats along with a bunch of other class abilities.
Personally, if I were taking the build I just put up, I'd take Archmage as quick as possible. Not having to be next to someone to touch them with a spell means survivability, which is what you need to get to the next level.

Mastery of Shaping. It's pointless to do area battlefield control spells if you can't keep them from affecting your fighter, and sculpt spell comes with a level adjustment(which is only a problem if you don't have metamagic adjusters...which this build doesn't). Taking a rod of sculpting only mitigates the problem. Plus, MS3 doesn't give you any of the good stuff in Master Specialist.
Compare:
MS1: Skill Focus(Spellcraft)-you've already got it to go into IoSV
MS2: Expanded Spellbook-1 extra abjuration spell in your spellbook
MS3: Greater Spell Focus-again, it's a requirement for IoSV: you've already got it if you didn't take your MS levels earlier.
Arch2: Mastery of Shaping
Arch3: Mastery of Elements
Arch4: Spell Power +1

Unless taken early in the build, taking 3 levels of MS nets you a single spell in your spellbook versus +1 caster level, at-will shaping your spells to keep your allies safe, and at-will switching out a spell's energy type(sonic included!).
The biggest hit from going Arch 4 is the spell slots you will lose, but the abilities are easily worth the price.

Note that this is assuming the build stated(wiz5/MaO4/IoSV7) is a pre-existing character. If not, he'd be taking Wiz3/MSX and so on, which would enable him to get into the higher levels of MS, which is much more worth it than otherwise(though I'd still dispute its superiority over Archmage).
#12
jameswilliamogle
Apr 29, 2008 14:01:41 I think that Spontaneous Divination is too good. Its not in the Polymorph realm for brokenness, though, but the same applies to Shivering Touch. I've got Scribe Scroll, and can't ban divination anyways, so might as well use that instead. Plus, I LOVE that L10 MS (abj) ability: cast on familiar, and have him carry a little box w/ one side open, always keeping the enemy in the AMF when you can buff the fighter who stays just at the edge.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 w00tmanx Apr 11, 2008 21:53:46	Okay, the optimized build is Wizard 3/MS 10/Iot7fV 7. But with the advent of CC and Spontaneous Divination, is losing 2 levels of MS worth it? Just curious.
#2 logicninja Apr 11, 2008 22:06:05	Spontaneous Divination is amazingtastic. Take Wiz 5; you may or may not want to cut Master Specialist out entirely if you're not getting the 10th level ability. If you do want Master Specialist 7, that leaves room for Archmage 1 and Arcane Reach.
#3 w00tmanx Apr 11, 2008 22:56:19	So my current build is this: Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 4/Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil 7. Here's the major question: Do I take Archmage at ECL 16 or 17? Obviously, at 16 will bump Initiate 7 to 17. Either is fine, though I guess I just need to decide if I want Irresistible Dance with 30' ranged touch now or later. Any thoughts? Edit: Also, is there anything that I could trade my familiar away for or do you think it will be too valuable?
#4 psishin Apr 12, 2008 1:08:55	Okay, the optimized build is Wizard 3/MS 10/Iot7fV 7. But with the advent of CC and Spontaneous Divination, is losing 2 levels of MS worth it? Just curious. What book is CC? complete champion?
#5 w00tmanx Apr 12, 2008 22:04:22	Yes.
#6 bejik Apr 28, 2008 12:51:52	Don't count out MS entirely just cause you can't take 10th level, the other esoterica are good too and work any time you cast your specialist school spells instead of 3/day. On the subject of familiars my advice is always to never get rid of them. They may seem like a liability but they can do so many things. The trick is to find ways to make them workable. There are a couple of WotC web-spells that let you add certain templates to a familiar which can be great. If your DM will allow it there are always ways to invent spells that go along with that theme. But even using just the material in various books and not inventing spells familiars are a great asset in enough situations that I would suggest keeping it. On the subject of Archmage I'd say the IotSV level is higher priority. That's my opinions at least, your mileage may vary.
#7 eldariel Apr 28, 2008 21:39:55	The major boon of Master Specialist for IotSV is that it not only has the same entry prerequisites, but over 3 levels, it grants the two remaining prerequisite feats! Since you can't enter Initiate before level 10 anyways (due to skills), you can afford those 5 levels in Wizard and 4 in Master Specialist before Initiate. Master Specialist is good, but Spontaneous Divination might just be strong enough to skip MS for. Remember that you can't go with an epic progression immediately on 21 if you don't finish MS. Then again, since most games don't go on Epic and you still get Epic Spellcasting on 21 on your standard epic feat, it's not that much of an issue. Other good use for the 5th level is Domain Granted Power (there're a few very much worth it depending on what you're doing), but it's hard to beat Spontaneous Divination.
#8 w00tmanx Apr 28, 2008 22:26:04	I looked at MS and it's not worth giving up Spontaneous Divination. It's just. That. Good.
#9 alphathegreat Apr 28, 2008 23:07:36	All that aside, if you're already committed to Wiz5/MAO4/IoSV7, then yes Archmage would definitely be great for the rest of your levels.
#10 wih Apr 29, 2008 0:45:38	All that aside, if you're already committed to Wiz5/MAO4/IoSV7, then yes Archmage would definitely be great for the rest of your levels. I'd be more inclined towards Wiz5/MS3/MAO4/IoSV7/Arch1. Arcane reach is the only really good one there (sure, the others are good...but not that good), and 3 levels of Master Specialist will give 2 bonus feats along with a bunch of other class abilities. Personally, if I were taking the build I just put up, I'd take Archmage as quick as possible. Not having to be next to someone to touch them with a spell means survivability, which is what you need to get to the next level.
#11 alphathegreat Apr 29, 2008 13:55:35	I'd be more inclined towards Wiz5/MS3/MAO4/IoSV7/Arch1. Arcane reach is the only really good one there (sure, the others are good...but not that good), and 3 levels of Master Specialist will give 2 bonus feats along with a bunch of other class abilities. Personally, if I were taking the build I just put up, I'd take Archmage as quick as possible. Not having to be next to someone to touch them with a spell means survivability, which is what you need to get to the next level. Mastery of Shaping. It's pointless to do area battlefield control spells if you can't keep them from affecting your fighter, and sculpt spell comes with a level adjustment(which is only a problem if you don't have metamagic adjusters...which this build doesn't). Taking a rod of sculpting only mitigates the problem. Plus, MS3 doesn't give you any of the good stuff in Master Specialist. Compare: MS1: Skill Focus(Spellcraft)-you've already got it to go into IoSV MS2: Expanded Spellbook-1 extra abjuration spell in your spellbook MS3: Greater Spell Focus-again, it's a requirement for IoSV: you've already got it if you didn't take your MS levels earlier. Arch2: Mastery of Shaping Arch3: Mastery of Elements Arch4: Spell Power +1 Unless taken early in the build, taking 3 levels of MS nets you a single spell in your spellbook versus +1 caster level, at-will shaping your spells to keep your allies safe, and at-will switching out a spell's energy type(sonic included!). The biggest hit from going Arch 4 is the spell slots you will lose, but the abilities are easily worth the price. Note that this is assuming the build stated(wiz5/MaO4/IoSV7) is a pre-existing character. If not, he'd be taking Wiz3/MSX and so on, which would enable him to get into the higher levels of MS, which is much more worth it than otherwise(though I'd still dispute its superiority over Archmage).
#12 jameswilliamogle Apr 29, 2008 14:01:41	I think that Spontaneous Divination is too good. Its not in the Polymorph realm for brokenness, though, but the same applies to Shivering Touch. I've got Scribe Scroll, and can't ban divination anyways, so might as well use that instead. Plus, I LOVE that L10 MS (abj) ability: cast on familiar, and have him carry a little box w/ one side open, always keeping the enemy in the AMF when you can buff the fighter who stays just at the edge.