Anyway, I am making an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil as my previous character has gone to a better place. I want to focus on counterspelling and party protection, and if needed also some damage. I'm posting my current build and would like to hear peoples thoughts on it and potential ways of optimization (obviously hehe). Also I would love to hear ideas about spell comboes that will make my DM shift uncomfortable and party snicker ;)
These are the books I have access to:
Player's Handbook, Player's Handbook 2, Dungeon Master's Guide, Book of Exhalted Deeds, Dragon Magic, Eberron Series, Complete Series, Races Series (not Dragon and Renown) Lords of Madness, Planar Handbook, Monster Manual Series, Player's Guide to Faerun, Sandtorm, Stormwrack, Frostburn, Savage Species, Dragon Compendium, Spell Compendium... think that was it.
Oh, and no psionic powers at all are allowed and skill tricks are houseruled at 5 SP each (my DM just wont listen to any common sense these days)
The build so far:
Race:
Lesser Thiefling
Alignment:
Neutral Good (for roleplaying reasons, but could easily be changed)
Stats:
Str (11), Dex (17), Con (15), Int (19), Wis (6), Cha (9)
Classes:
Abjurer 3, Master Specialist 6, Initiate of the Sevefold Veil 7, Master Specialist +3, Archmage 1
Banned schools of magic:
Necromancy and illusion
1. Abjurer 1 - Spell Focus (Abjuration)
2. Abjurer 2
3. Abjurer 3 - Improved Initiative
4. MS 1 - Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
5. MS 2
6. MS 3 - Improved Counterspell, Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)
7. MS 4
8. MS 5
9. MS 6 - Reactive Counterspell
10. IotSV 1
11. IotSV 2
12. IotSV 3 - Arcane Mastery
13. IotSV 4
14. IotSV 5
15. IotSV 6 - Elven Spell Lore
16. IotSV 7
17. MS 7
18. MS 8 - Spell Focus (Evocation)
19. MS 9
20. Archmage 1 - For Mastey of Counterspelling
Any thoughts - Just bring em! Anything is appreciated.
Cheers!
-Hoffen
And counterspelling is considered to be suboptimal generally. Just readying an action to blast the guy to force a concentration check that he can't make is better, and doesn't require any feat expenditure. And without the ability to spontaneously Heighten spells, you're going to have to keep one from each school prepped all the time to be able to counterspell effectively.
Ill have a look at the abjurant champion Winternacht, thanks.
You are probably right PhaedrusXY, its better to drop enhancement. Spell Focus (Enhancement) could as well have been Spell Focus (something else), its just a pre-req for archmage. I liked the reactive counterspell feat, so I wouldnt have to ready an action "just in case" I would have to counter a spell, so I was free to act in other ways. Could be suboptimal... thats why I was interested in hearing what people thought
You are prolly right that a spontaneous caster with heighten spell readying a action to blast a guy to oblivion would be more effective, but I'm really interested in trying to make a good counterspell build (using counterspell hehe). You made me consider things in a different perspective though, but thats another build for another day ;)2. A Shadowcraft Mage Iot7fV (check the handbook)
3. I don't remember their name, but someone's sig has the word "Rainbow!" in it in a chromatic array that links to some Rainbow Servant Iot7fV build.
Edit: 4. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=751117&page=9#242
5. http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-650186 Search "iot"
6. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-53839.html search "initiate of the"
Thanks Google!
Oh look, a free feat! How about Extraordinary Spell Aim (CA)? Put a nice little hole in that anti-magic field for your barbarian friend and all the other buff spells you've put on him.
Also, there is a calculation somewhere in the Handy Links containing a fairly rigorous demonstration that spell interruption via damage is mechanically superior to the counterspell action.
I guess that 10th level of Master Specialist is to powerfull to forgo... the thought of reflecting spells back at a caster was just so appealing that I didnt see the possibilities of major school esoterica. STILL though, I might accidently go Archmage at level 21 :P But it would be best to go for IotSV as fast as possible right? Or is it more wise to finish Master Specialist quickly?
Thanks for the insight both of ya
It's clearly a matter of taste whether you race into Initiate or finish Master Specialist first. If it were me, I'd finish Master Specialist first just for the sake of character sheet elegance. This is a preposterous justification of course. If you could get into Initiate and feel you would like some veils, go for it.
If this deeply interests you, but you lack the resources, just ask and I can send you some/the/an excerpt(s).
Even if this may not be the most optimal way of counterspelling or dealing with enemy spellcasters, I'd like to have seen it done for the novelty.
Lormador, I think I'll rush into IotSV, and go archmage at 21th level as you suggest. Since I dont have many feats left over, which of those I have posted would you drop for Extraordinary Spell Aim? Elven Spell Lore seems a likely candidate, but whats your oppinion?
Cheers and thanks!
Also, the spontaneous Heighten Spell suggestion was for a counterspeller, not someone who just blasts people to disrupt their casting. Otherwise you have to actually have a spell from every school prepped all the time to be able to counterspell every possible spell. If you can instead spontaneously heighten (without an increased casting time), you can just have a bunch of low level spells from every school prepped, and heighten them to the needed level.
And if you combine this with a pair of Rings of Greater Counterspelling (DMGII) with a pair of tweaked out Greater Dispels loaded in them, will allow you to knock out the first 3 spells per encounter without taking any actions.
Also, you might be interested in taking the feat Planar Touchstone, from the Planar Handbook. Dial into the Cataglogues of Enlightenment to get a domain granted ability. The domian you pick is Inquisition, which nets you a +4 unnamed bonus on dispel checks. This is NOT a +CL effect, which is limited by the CL cap, but a flat +4 bonus that gets tacked on AFTER your CL, which is pretty freakin amazing.
1- Abjurer: Trade Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative, take feat: Collegiate Wizard
2- Abjurer:
3- Abjurer: Spell Focus (Abjuration)
4- MS: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
5- MS
6- MS: Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), Leadership (this is where you get your counterspells from, grab a blaster and counter with damage.)
7- MS
8- MS
9- MS: Reserve Feat, Summon Elemental
10- I7
11- I7
12- I7: Extraordinary Spell Aim
13- I7
14- I7
15- I7: Draconic Familiar
16- I7
17- MS
18- MS: Spell Focus (Conjuration or Transmutation)
19- MS
20- MS
21- Archmage: Epic Spellcasting, SLA: Shapechange or Time Stop
Personally I would also go for Master Specialist 10 before entering Initiate, but the OP said he'd prefer to jump into Initiate.
That is some amazing suggestions there people... simply amazing. I believe I'll have to take Master Specialist ASAP and have a closer look at the spells (though I dont have Hero's of Battle, I could aquire it) and feats you suggest. As I dont believe I can fit it all in a build, which I would love to, I'll have to decide on what to choose now.
Oh the decisions!!!
Thanks alot for your inputs and time Lormador, NiteCyper, PhaedrusXY, Wyverhand, jameswilliamogle, and ForgottenRider.
Cheers!
EDIT: By the way, how do I trade Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative? Book and page would help alot thanks
EDIT: By the way, how do I trade Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative? Book and page would help alot thanks
Martial wizard variant, from Unearthed Arcana (I don't know the page). It is also in the SRD.
Dont have the book, but it's on the "to buy" list now ;)
Cheers!
Martial wizard variant, from Unearthed Arcana (I don't know the page). It is also in the SRD.
Can anyone either confirm this is the right book or perhaps give a hint of what page to look at :P In either case, Im gonna need this feat, so where is it hehe?
Cheers!
EDIT: He found it at last. UA page 59. Pretty nice, but would I be able to use it as a specialist wizard? The description from SRD says:
Some wizards trade their knowledge of magic and craft to improve their combat prowess.
Gain
Bonus feat list (as fighter; bonus feats gained at 1st level and every five levels as wizard).
Lose
Scribe Scroll, wizard bonus feat list.
But I dont think specialist wizards have a bonus feat list to lose. Am I wrong here?
But I dont think specialist wizards have a bonus feat list to lose. Am I wrong here?
They do. No worries there.
But I dont think specialist wizards have a bonus feat list to lose. Am I wrong here?
Of course they have bonus feats. Where did you get that idea? They get exactly the same feats as a generalist wizard.
Now if you're talking about the Master Specialist prestige class... that is an entirely different class. You're swapping your feats out for your wizard base class, not your PrCs... Since you're not going to level 5, that basically means just swapping out Scribe Scroll.
Abjurer 2/Master Specialist 7/Incantatrix 4/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 4/Archmage 1/Abjurant Champion 2
or
Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 7/Incantatrix 3/IotSFV 7
But that loses you both the capstone Master Specialist and IotSFV abilities. I personally can't get away with any of the cheese possible from Abjurer MS 10, so getting the Evasion/Mettle ability is good enough. And I'd rather have the persistent spell cheese from Incan than pretty much anything else.
Though I like your ideas pithica, I can't be loosing the 10th level of master specialist.. Not with the ideas people came with hehe. Have had a crush on the Incantatrix for a while now though ;)
Cheers!
I don't know where I got that idea PhaedrusXY, honestly :P But thanks for the illumination. And you too almagest. Its appreciated!
Though I like your ideas pithica, I can't be loosing the 10th level of master specialist.. Not with the ideas people came with hehe. Have had a crush on the Incantatrix for a while now though ;)
Cheers!
Just check to see what everyone's playing and what your DM will let you get away with before taking those last 3 levels of MS. In my groups, the BSF and Glass Cannon roles are almost always Gish's or Priests, so the roving AMF idea is completely out the window. We also had some bad experiences with Spellguard of Silverymoon's similar trick and have a houserule that you can't cast 'personal' spells on unwilling targets.
Noone seems to mind if I have 1rd/lvl spells up all day, but the first time you cast an AMF of trollshape on an opposing spellcaster and completely boink him in 1rd, everyone freaks out.
Thanks for the heads up
Cheers!
If I could, I'd go Dragonborn Fire Elf Martial Abjurer3/Master Abjurer2/Incantatrix3/Master+1/Veil7/Master+X. I'd go Martial Abjurer1/Master Abjurer4/Incantatrix3/Master+1/Veil7/Master+X were we retraining feats. Specifically, you'd need Precocious Apprentice (CA) and Favored Contact (Cityscape) to enter MA at L2.
I personally recomend getting that 10th level Master Specialist ability before you get into Iot7V. Casting AMF on your BSF before you start fighting deific creatures that are immune to it is pretty awesome in the 13-18 level range, and the Iot7V abilities start having the biggest impact above 13th.
Given that the Master Specialist's capstone ability only allows you to cast an abjuration spell with a range of personal as touch, antimagic field doesn't apply. It has a range of 10', so RAW... *shrug*
The build I'm currently contemplating for a game in WLD is a dwarven wizard -- cleric 1 (Inquisition domain for the +4 on dispel checks)/abjurer 3/master specialist 1/runesmith 1/master specialist 2-4/IotSV7. Of course, that only takes me up to level 16; I'll need to figure out what to put on the top of it.
WotC mentioned something about things later in a description overriding earlier things.
Range has 7 possible settings: Personal, Touch, Close, Medium, Long, Unlimited, or a Range expressed in feat (aka fixed). A range expressed in feet which is centered on you is not the same thing as a personal range, the two are separate classifications of 'range'.
Now, it just so happens that Kuru is also incorrect and the ability in question (Major School Esoterica) still works for AMF, but it works because the ability goes on to say (after the bit about Personal range Abjuration spells):
When casting an abjuration spell that is an emanation centered on you, you can instead choose to cast it as a touch spell that emanates from the touched creature.
Since AMF is a 10ft Emanation, centered on you, and it is an abjuration spell, the above clause applies, and AMF works with Major School Esoterica for Abjuration specialist, Master Specialists.