Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mervin_magnus Aug 31, 2009 22:27:39	I was fiddling around with cohort builds for my recent "ultimate versatyle character build. And I came across two similar, yet different builds. Competitor #1: Illumian Naenhoon (for divine persist cheese) Cleric 1/ Bloodline 3/ Crusader 1/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/ XXX 5* *or XXX 2 if this is a cohort (probably a prestige class for bloodline cheese) Comeptitor #2: Whatever Race Martial Transmuter** 1/ Bloodline 3/ Swordsage 2/ Jade Pheonix Mage 10/ Master of Nine 1/ XXX 3* * XXX 3 only apply if this non-cohort ** early entry into PrC using Precocious Aprentice So CO Boards! What do ya think? Which is better? As a character? or as a cohort? Everyone's 2cp is welcome (the more 2cp we have, the richer we'll be!!!!)
#2 tytalus Sep 01, 2009 9:24:55	Gerenally the opinion on this board is that RKV > JPM. This is mostly due to Divine Impetus' action economy (i.e., DMM: Persist may not be the best option). Also, White Raven is more powerful than Desert Wind (probably the weakest of all disciplines). Basically, the answer to all four questions is: RKV. However, I really like the flavor of the JPM, so I'd play that one over the RKV anyway.
#3 mervin_magnus Sep 01, 2009 11:39:12	thanks for the 2cp everyone else's 2cp is welcome! You can change the builds around, these are just what I came across fiddling with bloodlines. P.S. (I was thinking of persisting Divine Power to make up the HP and BAB loss) Originally my 2cp was going with JPM because I don't like the recovery mechanic of the crusader, but I hear that it is actually better...
#4 wildfire393 Sep 01, 2009 13:36:31	thanks for the 2cp everyone else's 2cp is welcome! You can change the builds around, these are just what I came across fiddling with bloodlines. P.S. (I was thinking of persisting Divine Power to make up the HP and BAB loss) Originally my 2cp was going with JPM because I don't like the recovery mechanic of the crusader, but I hear that it is actually better...   The Crusader's Mechanic is usually considered "the best" because it recovers the maneuvers automatically, without having to use any actions. The drawback is that you must go through at four rounds of combat before you see your first recovery, but Extra Granted Maneuver reduces this to three rounds. It's arguable that the Warblade's mechanic is better, since he effectively spends a move action to recover all of his, but limiting yourself to a single attack in a round rather than a full-round attack, especially at higher levels, might as well be giving up a full-round action. There's also no way to improve the Warblade's recovery. The Swordsage has the worst of the recovery mechanics. You must spend a full-round action to re-ready a SINGLE maneuver. The only improvement that can be made to this is Adaptive Style, which lets the same Full-round action recover all maneuvers instead of just one.
#5 mervin_magnus Sep 01, 2009 14:05:28	The Crusader's Mechanic is usually considered "the best" because it recovers the maneuvers automatically, without having to use any actions. The drawback is that you must go through at four rounds of combat before you see your first recovery, but Extra Granted Maneuver reduces this to three rounds. But doesn't the randomness make life hard for a crusader? Sometimes they end up feeling like wizards when they prepared all the wrong spells. I guess this isn't a problem when all the manuvers perform essential the same thing (but im currently concerned about versatility) So is it good to play out a versatile crusader?
#6 wildfire393 Sep 01, 2009 14:19:27	With Extra Granted Maneuver, the Crusader always starts with all but two of his Maneuvers. Out of the seven readied maneuvers you will have as a Crusader 1 / RKV 10, five will be granted at the start of combat, the sixth will be granted after the first round, and the seventh will be granted after the second round. This means that you will at most need to wait two rounds to access a particular maneuver. As an added bonus, if you can cast Time Stop (Celerity, Planning, Time, or Trickery Domain), you can use this to immediately gain all your maneuvers granted, and thus the ability to recover all of your maneuvers at the end of every round.
#7 mervin_magnus Sep 01, 2009 21:12:56	one last thing... is there some sort of agreement amongst all u guys on which is the strongest school(s) and which aren't? (I just feel suddenly empty on the inside when i find out my favorite school is the weakest) P.S. Would this build make a great gesalt?
#8 tytalus Sep 02, 2009 4:10:16	one last thing... is there some sort of agreement amongst all u guys on which is the strongest school(s) and which aren't? Roughly, the prevalent opinion seems to be as follows: Strongest: Devotes Spirit, White Raven Weakest: Desert Wind (fire damage blows at higher levels), and to a lesser extent Shadow Hand (although the teleportation maneuvers are very useful) Everything else falls somewhere in between. Stone Dragon is useful, but not really special. Diamond Mind and Iron Heart have some maneuvers/stances that are very strong (i.e., Iron Heart Surge). Tiger Claw is very useful (some would say essential) for two-weapon fighting builds and the Blood in the Water stance is a staple for high-crit builds. Setting Sun is a bit of an odd one out and only accessible via Swordsage, which limits its power somewhat. P.S. Would this build make a great gesalt? Since gestalt precludes dual-advancement PrCs like the Mystic Theurge or Arcane Trickster, one could argue that both RKV and JPM are not allowed for gestalt. A simple Crusader/Cleric, however, is extremely potent.
#9 tytalus Sep 02, 2009 4:17:34	The Crusader's Mechanic is usually considered "the best" because it recovers the maneuvers automatically, without having to use any actions. The drawback is that you must go through at four rounds of combat before you see your first recovery, but Extra Granted Maneuver reduces this to three rounds. It's arguable that the Warblade's mechanic is better, since he effectively spends a move action to recover all of his, but limiting yourself to a single attack in a round rather than a full-round attack, especially at higher levels, might as well be giving up a full-round action. There's also no way to improve the Warblade's recovery. I'm surprised you would say that as the opions on this board seem to favor the warblade. Even with Extra Granted Maneuver, you still don't have full control over the maneuvers you receive. Granted, a famous quote on the boards says something like: a random selection of awesome is still awesome, but that refers more to the disciplines a crusader has access to. Also, warblades can recover while doing a full attack. You only have to take a swift action which is followed by an attack (that can be part of a full-round attack) or spending a standard action doing nothing.
#10 mervin_magnus Sep 02, 2009 12:26:54	I'm just making sure I'm doing this right For the bloodlines, do they advance Manuvers Known/Ready/Granted? Or do they ONLY advance initiator level?
#11 wildfire393 Sep 02, 2009 12:31:30	The Crusader's Mechanic is usually considered "the best" because it recovers the maneuvers automatically, without having to use any actions. The drawback is that you must go through at four rounds of combat before you see your first recovery, but Extra Granted Maneuver reduces this to three rounds. It's arguable that the Warblade's mechanic is better, since he effectively spends a move action to recover all of his, but limiting yourself to a single attack in a round rather than a full-round attack, especially at higher levels, might as well be giving up a full-round action. There's also no way to improve the Warblade's recovery. I'm surprised you would say that as the opions on this board seem to favor the warblade. Even with Extra Granted Maneuver, you still don't have full control over the maneuvers you receive. Granted, a famous quote on the boards says something like: a random selection of awesome is still awesome, but that refers more to the disciplines a crusader has access to. Also, warblades can recover while doing a full attack. You only have to take a swift action which is followed by an attack (that can be part of a full-round attack) or spending a standard action doing nothing. The actual wording is rather unclear. I've seen it interpreted both ways. If the recovery mechanic is really just "Swift action, then you have to attack that turn", it makes the Warblade's mechanic by far the best.
#12 pithica Sep 02, 2009 12:34:31	you still don't have full control over the maneuvers you receive. Granted, a famous quote on the boards says something like: a random selection of awesome is still awesome, but that refers more to the disciplines a crusader has access to. As an aside, I have a friend that, for flavor reasons, really dislikes this mechanic and claims that it's nonsensical for the 'gods' (or whatever) to grant anything 'random' to their 'chosen followers'. He believes that like clerics, they should give you what you ask for. I personally think this is bunk, both as a student of theology, and as someone that agrees with the above quote (that 4*Awesome=Awesome, even if you missed out on an extra 2*Awesome for one round). I don't so much mind not getting to pick what's immediately available. As long as I didn't do anything crazily moronic in my Maneuver's Known choices, which honestly is fairly difficult to do, I should have a use for whichever 3-5 manuevers get granted.