Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 malosasalist Mar 18, 2009 20:49:29	I want to be a Cavalier...
#2 feloniousela Mar 18, 2009 21:42:56	I would ask your DM.
#3 carnivore Mar 19, 2009 4:54:28	i would say yes.... look at the MM entry ..... it says this: COMBAT A centaur employing a lance deals double damage when it charges, just as a rider on a mount does. thus they are considered the same :D
#4 Kevin_Andrew_Murphy Mar 19, 2009 5:32:49	There are some mechanical problems with the centaur. It's a large size creature because of the horse portion, but should not be allowed to use large size weapons or for that matter have to, since the human half is human size. But I'd consider one mounted for all the relevant feats.
#5 carnivore Mar 19, 2009 5:39:02	There are some mechanical problems with the centaur. It's a large size creature because of the horse portion, but should not be allowed to use large size weapons or for that matter have to, since the human half is human size. where does it say that the Human part is "Human sized".... it simply has a "Human" appearance.... in fact notice: CENTAUR Large Monstrous Humanoid Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares) Armor Class: 14 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+12 Attack: Longsword +7 melee (2d6+6/19–20) or composite longbow (+4 Str bonus) +5 ranged (2d6+4/x3) Full Attack: Longsword +7 melee (2d6+6/19–20) and 2 hooves +3 melee (1d6+2); or composite longbow (+4 Str bonus) +5 ranged (2d6+4/x3) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft. Saves: Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +5 Abilities: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 11 Skills: Listen +3, Move Silently +4, Spot +3, Survival +2 Feats: Dodge, Weapon Focus (hoof ) Environment: Temperate forests Organization: Solitary, company (5–8), troop (8–18 plus 1 leader of 2nd–5th level), or tribe (20–150 plus 30% noncombatants plus 10 3rd-level sergeants, 5 5th-level lieutenants, and 1 leader of 5th–9th level) Challenge Rating: 3 Treasure: Standard Alignment: Usually neutral good Advancement: By character class Level Adjustment: +2 A centaur is as big as a heavy horse, but much taller and slightly heavier. A centaur is about 7 feet tall and weighs about 2,100 pounds. Centaurs speak Sylvan and Elven. COMBAT A centaur employing a lance deals double damage when it charges, just as a rider on a mount does. CENTAURS AS CHARACTERS A centaur druid is usually a tribe’s designated leader and speaker. Centaur characters possess the following racial traits. +8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom. Large size. –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters. Space/Reach: 10 feet/5 feet. A centaur’s base land speed is 50 feet. Darkvision out to 60 feet. Racial Hit Dice: A centaur begins with four levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +4, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +4, and Will +4. Racial Skills: A centaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 7 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival. Racial Feats: A centaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it two feats. +3 natural armor bonus. Automatic Languages: Sylvan, Elven. Bonus Languages: Common, Gnome, Halfling. Favored Class: Ranger. Level adjustment +2. :D
#6 Kevin_Andrew_Murphy Mar 19, 2009 6:06:50	If you check the listing for a "heavy horse" in the SRD, it will say this is about the size of a Clydesdale. If you check the size of a Clydesdale in wikipedia, it says that the average stands 16 to 17 hands high, which comes to 64 and 68 inches respectively, which is to say they average five and a half feet at the withers. That's about the point where a centaur's upper body starts. If a centaur is seven feet tall and has the body of a Clydesdale, this leaves only one and a half feet for head, neck and torso. If so, they must look seriously freaky. It's like some Fleshwarper replaced Trigger's head with the upper half of a gnome or halfling. And those are small creatures too. Instead, it makes more sense to just decide that the designers got the description wrong and top them with an upper human torso of about two and a half to three feet, having centaurs stand somewhere between eight and eight and a half feet tall. Or we could decide on giant size human portions, but that makes them more like twelve feet tall, but that gets silly, with these giant size torsos staggering around on comparatively tiny little Clydesdale legs.
#7 PlzBreakMyCampaign Mar 19, 2009 9:13:22	they average five and a half feet at the withers. That's about the point where a centaur's upper body starts. If a centaur is seven feet tall and has the body of a Clydesdale, this leaves only one and a half feet for head, neck and torso. What? So the horse part is at most 6 feet tall. The human part can be at most 3 feet tall. That leaves us 1 foot under most tall-ways large creature, which is perfect. Carnivore was right, no need to nitpick
#8 snex Mar 19, 2009 10:40:40	also notice that the longsword in the description does 2d6.. thats a large longsword.
#9 keyes2k4 Mar 19, 2009 10:48:52	I would think they would be able to use larger weapons because their horse-body gives them extra stability, which improves their balance to a degree. I mean look at a standard fighter or barbarian with 18 strength, they can definitely carry a large weapon with ease, they can carry their armor with ease, but they still incur the attack penalty for trying to use a large weapon. Why do they take a penalty despite having enough strength? I say its a balance issue.
#10 ithamar Mar 19, 2009 13:37:35	I would also draw your attention to the Zelekhut. Feats: Due to its centaur-like construction, a zelekhut qualifies for feats as if it had the Mounted Combat feat If a zelekhut counts as mounted because it resembles a centaur, I'd certainly think a centaur counts as mounted. ;)
#11 Kevin_Andrew_Murphy Mar 19, 2009 14:11:48	What? So the horse part is at most 6 feet tall. The human part can be at most 3 feet tall. That leaves us 1 foot under most tall-ways large creature, which is perfect. Carnivore was right, no need to nitpick So you're saying 6 + 3 = 7? If you're agreeing that the human part should be about 3 feet tall, then what you're saying is that from the waist up, they have the proportions of a medium size creature. Unless you're giving them ogre-size arms, which would be more functional, but still at odds with the classic imagery. If you want to keep the stat block as is, you can just argue that the humanoid half is human size, but they all have a free monkey grip type feat that lets them wield weapons in proportion with the rest of their bodies, from years of training with backscratchers to reach those places their comparatively short little human arms wouldn't reach.
#12 owls_and_more_owls Mar 19, 2009 14:40:25	I would ask your DM. +1 thus they are considered the same :D +1
#13 carnivore Mar 19, 2009 14:47:49	the key is they are "Large sized".... not Horse half Large sized, humanoid half Medium Sized..... they have a Stronger Upper body proportionately than a Human in addition... they are "about 7 feet tall"... not they "are 7 feet tall" also... they are "as big" as a heavy horse.... denotes relative size... not Absolute size bottom line... they are Mythical creatures... if you want to HOUSERULE the part about Large Weapon use... thats up to you... as far as the rules go... they say they CAN use Large Weapons.. because they ARE large creatures :D
#14 dr_rocktopus Mar 19, 2009 14:51:37	I would consider them mounted, but I will warn you that the mounted combat rules are strange and.... strange. They produce arbitrarily large numbers and a stupid amount of mobility compared to ground-based fighters. Spirited charge alone will triple your attack damage with a lance on the charge, and a one dip of barbarian with the comp-champ substitution levels will net you pounce which if you're a centaur makes more sense rather than less. Frankly, though, the default la of +2 combined with the four racial hit dice means that I'm actually pretty much okay with this as they're crushingly under-powered otherwise. At the point where you can charge, double move, ride-by attack, etc down a dungeon corridor, I'm willing to consider the large\medium weapon debate almost irrelevant. That said, the rules for quadruped or tauric races are pretty poorly written, with a LOT of variation. Does anyone know the stats for the bariaur off-hand? Do they perhaps have a less punishing RHD&LA?
#15 ithamar Mar 19, 2009 15:05:29	Lesser Bariur (Planar Handbook) are only +1 LA with no HD, but their beefier cousing from BoED are 3 HD, +2 LA.
#16 dr_rocktopus Mar 19, 2009 15:39:41	Perhaps, then, you might consider the long-suffering Bariur as your race over centaur? LA +1 is an easy buy-off, and well worth it if your gm considers tauric races to be mounted.
#17 userwithnoname Mar 19, 2009 17:34:17	Mounted combat says nothing about size. In fact a pixie riding a squirrel qualify for the mounted combat feats. (Now THAT is something i'd like to see). So debatine the centaur physionomy won't help here ;) As for a centaur counting as mounted, that's a long strech. Let say you take the "Mounted Combat" feat. Would you give your centaur a "Ride" check to negate the damage ? Does a centaur get penalty when using a bow (Thus the need for Mounted Archery). With thoses question the answer is : No, they are not mounted. Now some feats like ride-by-attack and trample could be taken as a centaur (I would rule that the character is considered as meeting the prerequisite). But that's up to your GM. From this angle, we would say "Yes they are mounted". So I don't think there would be a simple answer. Lame as it may sound, it can be yes AND no, it all depend on how you look at it. I'm just no help here, but it's my 2 cents ;) Good luck with that one !
#18 jenos Mar 19, 2009 18:18:00	Considering the Zelekhut, which is also in Core explicitly states that it is treated like it had mounted combat, I would say an explicit RAW judgment says that centaurs do not qualify because they lack the explicit mention that occurs in another monster of similar size/shape. That being said, the intent is probably that they do qualify, and I don't think a DM would easily say no.
#19 atomickitkat Mar 19, 2009 19:50:50	I think of their being counted as mounted as being something like Powerful Build: "A Centaur counts as Mounted for the purposes of pre-requisites for Feats. However, they do not count as Mounted for the purposes of taking penalties for using ranged weapons."
#20 volatris Mar 19, 2009 20:17:10	... a pixie riding a squirrel [with] the mounted combat feats Oh carnivore, someone has a pixie build request for you!
#21 emansdrawkcab Mar 19, 2009 21:57:16	Oh carnivore, someone has a pixie build request for you! That's exactly where my thoughts went! On a more serious note... Do it... I dare you...
#22 malosasalist Mar 19, 2009 22:13:23	I want my Centaur to ride a Centaur.
#23 volatris Mar 19, 2009 22:31:50	Hot.
#24 dr_rocktopus Mar 20, 2009 0:09:54	Better to have your bariaur ride a centaur. uh. wait.
#25 Kerrus Mar 20, 2009 0:54:58	No, no, no! I've got it! An Awakened Squirrel riding a Feral Pixie. DO EET!
#26 carnivore Mar 20, 2009 4:38:12	Oh carnivore, someone has a pixie build request for you! :D
#27 Pramxnim Mar 20, 2009 5:07:18	Well, you won't have the BAB to enter Cavalier in the first place (requirement: BAB + 8). Also the feat requirements are brutal. Nice picture though :D
#28 carnivore Mar 20, 2009 5:16:54	thanks, i didnt check what the reqs were(just guessed at them) .... corrected ... heres a better one: :D
#29 emansdrawkcab Mar 20, 2009 11:02:10	Thanks a lot, you made me spit Mini Wheat-y milk all over my laptop...
#30 magicalme Mar 20, 2009 11:21:48	thanks, i didnt check what the reqs were(just guessed at them) .... corrected ... heres a better one: :D this is amazing and you should feel proud :D
#31 atomickitkat Mar 20, 2009 13:35:04	I think technically, that's a chipmunk, but it'll do. Didn't even think there was such a picture as the feline one. :P
#32 carnivore Mar 20, 2009 14:56:16	glad you like them ..... will work on complete builds for them... and put them in the Pixie Handbook :D
#33 hijaxx Mar 20, 2009 15:11:27	we still need one for awakened squirrel on a pixie.
#34 carnivore Mar 20, 2009 15:21:27	we still need one for awakened squirrel on a pixie. much bigger challenge... dont know if i could find one .... also, unfortunately that would not be allowed on this board :D
#35 owls_and_more_owls Mar 20, 2009 15:45:47	I want my Centaur to ride a Centaur. That actually gives me an interesting idea (not in a naughty way i mean why would i think about that because im not really like that you know ahahahaha). Could a Centaur be considered a Mount?
#36 carnivore Mar 20, 2009 15:52:18	That actually gives me an interesting idea (not in a naughty way i mean why would i think about that because im not really like that you know ahahahaha). Could a Centaur be considered a Mount? yes.... for any Medium Creature it could carry.... it is a very useful way to get a Very Intelligent Mount... but it would actually be a Cohort who allowed you to ride them or a Minion/henchman who you Paid/Dominated/Charmed/etc... to let you ride them Show
#37 owls_and_more_owls Mar 20, 2009 16:01:01	yes.... for any Medium Creature it could carry.... it is a very useful way to get a Very Intelligent Mount... but it would actually be a Cohort who allowed you to ride them or a Minion/henchman who you Paid/Dominated/Charmed/etc... to let you ride them Show
#38 grifter730_dup Mar 21, 2009 0:45:46	Well then Guess who's Paladin/Warlock is getting an awesome mount (also the leadership feat). Thanks a lot Got a build for that pally/lock? sounds like an interesting concept.....
#39 owls_and_more_owls Mar 21, 2009 15:09:08	Got a build for that pally/lock? sounds like an interesting concept..... Not yet. I'm still working on it. If you have any ideas, i'd be happy to hear them
#40 carnivore Mar 21, 2009 15:20:16	Warlock 4/ Paldin of Freedom 4/ Divine Crusader 2/ Contemplative 1/ Eldritch Disciple 9 9th lvl Spells (2 domains) 13th lvl Warlock(6d6 EB, 2 Greater, 3 Lesser, 3 least invocations) but no Mount... with Warlock(Fell Flight) ... you dont need one :D
#41 owls_and_more_owls Mar 21, 2009 16:02:43	Warlock 4/ Paldin of Freedom 4/ Divine Crusader 2/ Contemplative 1/ Eldritch Disciple 9 9th lvl Spells (2 domains) 13th lvl Warlock(6d6 EB, 2 Greater, 3 Lesser, 3 least invocations) but no Mount... with Warlock(Fell Flight) ... you dont need one :D I'm not that good at COing (at least not as good as half of the people on this board), in fact, I'm spending time here so that I can get better at it. Why a level in Contemplative? Also, Why would I need to be a Paladin of Freedom?
#42 malosasalist Mar 21, 2009 16:08:27	I'm not that good at COing (at least not as good as half of the people on this board), in fact, I'm spending time here so that I can get better at it. Why a level in Contemplative? Also, Why would I need to be a Paladin of Freedom? I think because it gives another spellcasting level to his Warlock class and a bonus domain. (Also immunity to all diseases.)
#43 muertog Mar 22, 2009 4:49:29	I have to say, this picture is composed of win. ^_^
#44 muertog Mar 22, 2009 4:53:20	I'm not that good at COing (at least not as good as half of the people on this board), in fact, I'm spending time here so that I can get better at it. Why a level in Contemplative? Also, Why would I need to be a Paladin of Freedom? Paladin of Freedom alignment restrictions are Chaotic Good. Warlock alignment restrictions are Chaotic OR Evil, thus, the only way to have a good paladin warlock is Chaotic Good. Then again, you could go with the Paladins of Tyranny or Slaughter and do away with all those silly good impulses.
#45 Treantmonklvl20 Mar 22, 2009 9:10:41	By RAW, you are mounted...when you are on a mount. i would say yes.... look at the MM entry ..... it says this... thus they are considered the same :D Actually, if the MM entry said "A centaur is considered mounted" without specifications as to "when" the centaur is considered mounted - I would agree. However, the MM specifies that the centaur does double damage with a lance as if they were mounted - which specifies a situation where they follow the mechanics of a mounted character. Furthermore, I would point out the wording is NOT, "A centaur uses a lance as if mounted", but is even more specific, instead saying the centaur deals double damage with a lance as if mounted. However, I would personally allow a centaur to be treated as if they were mounted...I'm just pointing out that by the rules, they are not. In other words - if your DM says they don't think so, you've got nothing. However, yes, the centaur could be the mount, in which case, its rider could use the various mounted combat options...
#46 malosasalist Mar 22, 2009 10:41:10	In other words - if your DM says they don't think so, you've got nothing. Doesn't that really apply to any rule?
#47 immolate Mar 22, 2009 11:12:17	Doesn't that really apply to any rule? No. Where the rules explicitly support your argument, you have an argument, which is not "nothing". An unsupported argument, however, could accurately be described as "nothing".
#48 carnivore Mar 22, 2009 12:31:13	I'm not that good at COing (at least not as good as half of the people on this board), in fact, I'm spending time here so that I can get better at it. Why a level in Contemplative? Also, Why would I need to be a Paladin of Freedom? as Muertog said.... also the level of Contemplative is for an Additional Domain so that the Divine Crusader can cast spells from 2 domains... i would suggest this: Elysium(Planar Domain) Elysium Planar Domain Elysium Domain Granted Power: Planar Handbook, page 87. 1 Charm Person. Player’s Handbook, page 209. 1 Protection from Evil. Player’s Handbook, page 266. 2 Enthrall. Player’s Handbook, page 227. 2 Planar Tolerance. Planar Handbook, page 103. 3 Magic Circle against Evil. Player’s Handbook, page 249. 3 Mantle of Good. Planar Handbook, page 100. 4 Charm Monster. Player’s Handbook, page 209. 4 Holy Smite. Player’s Handbook, page 241. 5 Dispel Evil. Player’s Handbook, page 222. 5 Cure Light Wounds, Mass. Player’s Handbook, page 216. 6 Find the Path. Player’s Handbook, page 230. 6 Mind Fog. Player’s Handbook, page 253. 7 Control Weather. Player’s Handbook, page 214. 7 Holy Word. Player’s Handbook, page 242. 8 Holy Aura. Player’s Handbook, page 241. 8 Sunburst. Player’s Handbook, page 289. 9 Heal, Mass. Player’s Handbook, page 239. 9 Moment of Prescience. Player’s Handbook, page 255.
#49 dr_rocktopus Mar 22, 2009 15:14:38	No. Where the rules explicitly support your argument, you have an argument, which is not "nothing". An unsupported argument, however, could accurately be described as "nothing". Gonna vote that GM Fiat is not a crappy car to ride to town in. Sorry, but no argument is valid if it fails to compile on the version of the DnD virtual machine you're using.