Is a level of monk worth it? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 furious5k Sep 15, 2008 14:51:35	I am about to start playing in the organised play Pathfinder setting and I am wondering which would be a better choice. Assuming the changed rules of Humans adding +2 to any one stat and Dwarves getting +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha. [I know, that they are currently still using plain 3.5 rules, but this is what they put in the beta] Considering all the usual constraints of organised play and that this is going to be a slow-leveling, finished by 15 or so thing. Is it worth to play a human (no xp penalty) and taking a level of monk. It seems very tempting, in a core only game. +4 or more extra AC seems very tasty. Or would a straight druid be better (why?). Also, could somebody explain to me how Flurry of Blows works if you are a wildshaped? Do you just make unarmed attacks and then use one of the animal's natural attacks at -5? How do you determine the number of unarmed attacks, attack bonus, damage etc. ?
#2 Senevri Sep 15, 2008 15:07:20	extra animal attacks are always secondary attacks. Do note that humans get a free martial weapon proficiency at lv1. Hmm. As much as I like monks, I'm probably gonna have to go with a "no" here... OTOH, I'm not all that familiar with how much Druid is nerfed in practice from 3.5. Cleric went significantly down, a lot closer to the Bard( who got a slight boost ) in Pathfinder, that much I know. ( still a powerful full caster, though ) A monk/cleric mix gets interesting in PF, as plant grants either cleric level or caster level to unarmed damage, too... but digressing. So "No" on monks, because: Higher level spells are a huge thing AND wild shape moar better asap.
#3 hogarth Sep 15, 2008 15:19:38	I wouldn't bother with a monk level, at least at low levels. It's a +3 or +4 to AC, whereas you could wear leather/hide armor for +2 or +3 instead and have an extra level of druid. If I wanted to multiclass, I'd consider taking a level of cleric, though, especially with the Magic domain. The ability to use cleric and wizard spells and wands is very handy in some cases. Is this going to be for a home game, or for convention play?
#4 furious5k Sep 15, 2008 15:21:55	Does that mean you would make main attacks+1 (all at -2) and then ALL the natural attacks of the chosen animal (at -5)? Is making the enemy have to roll 5 or so higher to hit you really that useless? And just to clarify, I meant taking a level of monk post-wildshape. Also, is it worth being middle-aged? As an example, Str 10, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 8 vs. Str 9, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 10. I know, this starts off with 2 stats at odd. But you get a nice boost at level 4 to your wisdom and also, since it's organised play (and therefor level 16 is pretty much the peak of your character), rounding off stats at level 4 and 12 might be nicer.
#5 furious5k Sep 15, 2008 15:23:02	This will be an official organised play Pathfinder game, BUT we are going to run it just in our group at home. Also, Hogarth - I imagine the bonus would be higher than that. At level 4, I should have 18 base Wisdom. By the time I actually take the level of monk (level 6 or after), I probably will have a circlet. And depending on how quickly we level, they may have come converted to Pathfinder by that time too, granting another +2. So a +5 or +6 to AC, actually. By level 12 you should be looking at +8 AC. So a Dire Bear with AC 25 instead of 17, or 27 if I cast cat's grace, or another +4 if I can convince the wizard to cast Mage Armor. [And at higher levels, he really shouldn't complain about me asking a single level 1 spell per day from him].
#6 carnivore Sep 15, 2008 15:26:11	+1 to both Senevri and hogarth in a CORE only game , by 5th lvl a Druid can still get: Dragonhide Plate: This suit of full plate is made of dragonhide, rather than metal, so druids can wear it. It is otherwise identical to masterwork full plate. No aura (nonmagical); Price 3,300 gp. and by 9th lvl can have +1 Wild Dragonhide Plate 19300gp Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen. Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, baleful polymorph; Price +3 bonus. +9 Armor to AC ...... far better than what you can get with Monk :D
#7 furious5k Sep 15, 2008 15:33:31	You, sir, are an angel with D&D rules written on its wings. For some reason, I thought the only enchantment that allows you to keep armor in wildshape was beastskin in Complete Adventurer. Thank you in bundles.
#8 hogarth Sep 15, 2008 15:49:44	Unfortunately, Pathfinder Society play has severe restrictions on the equipment you have access to. For instance, you can't just buy dragonhide armor -- you have to get access to it through one of your adventures. Ditto with the Wild enhancement. The only stuff you're guaranteed to have access to: +1 weapons/armor/shields potions/scrolls of 0th or 1st level spells silver/cold iron weapons mundane gear from the PHB (in non-fancy materials) There are some other things that you might later get access to through your faction (e.g. +2 weapons/armor, some crappy wands [wand of Scare? WTF?!], some expensive potions, ONE or TWO types of +2 stat-boosting item), but don't get your hopes up too high. +1 to both Senevri and hogarth in a CORE only game , by 5th lvl a Druid can still get: and by 9th lvl can have +1 Wild Dragonhide Plate 19300gp +9 Armor to AC ...... far better than what you can get with Monk :D
#9 furious5k Sep 15, 2008 15:54:50	Urgh. So making the assumption that I will not get access to Wild property (a good chance too, for a +3 enhancement), is the Monk still a bad idea? Also, any suggestions on which of the (a few posts up) stat assignment is better?
#10 hogarth Sep 15, 2008 15:57:03	Also, any suggestions on which of the (a few posts up) stat assignment is better? On the Paizo message boards, Josh Frost reversed his decision on allowing middle-aged/old PCs. Of course, none of these rulings have been written down anywhere, so take that claim with a grain of salt.
#11 Senevri Sep 16, 2008 5:51:26	Monk is not horrible for druids. It's just that the optimal spot to pick it is level 19.or so. :/
#12 randomfellow Sep 16, 2008 6:46:10	I am with the anti-monk crowd. The only reason to dip Monk is if you ever play Gestalt.
#13 hogarth Sep 16, 2008 8:08:47	Urgh. So making the assumption that I will not get access to Wild property (a good chance too, for a +3 enhancement), is the Monk still a bad idea? At any rate, I probably wouldn't take a level of monk before taking six levels of druid first (so you can get Natural Spell and spend most of your time in wild shape). At the rate that Pathfinder Society adventures come out, it should be 7 more months of real time (at a minimum) before you'll reach level 7. So you have plenty of time to think about it first and see what the availability of magic items and equipment will be like.
#14 furious5k Sep 16, 2008 17:58:56	I just realised - does the Pathfinder way of doing xp (1xp per scenario, 3 gets you a level) means xp penalties for multi-classing have been scrapped? Oh, and could you possibly link to the post? I searched for it but came up empty.
#15 hogarth Sep 16, 2008 19:58:37	I just realised - does the Pathfinder way of doing xp (1xp per scenario, 3 gets you a level) means xp penalties for multi-classing have been scrapped? My understanding is that any combination of classes that would give you an xp penalty is disallowed completely. Oh, and could you possibly link to the post? I searched for it but came up empty. Their search function is terrible! Here's the thread: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderSociety/general/questionsUnansweredRaisedByThePFSGuide&page=2 And here's the relevant post's text: Show Joshua J. Frost (Organized Play Coordinator), Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 01:32 PM REPLY The next update to the guide will state that while you can make your character of any age, characters in Pathfinder Society Organized Play never receive a stat boost from doing so. IE, middle age characters use the same point buy and racial advantages as characters that are in their 20s. Yes, this is a change from a previous post. Thanks everyone for the feedback.
#16 the_shaman Sep 17, 2008 5:51:14	I thought the XP penalty was removed already, and favored class levels get more HP or skill points.
#17 hogarth Sep 17, 2008 9:42:22	I thought the XP penalty was removed already, and favored class levels get more HP or skill points. You're confusing the Pathfinder RPG (which has the changes you mention, at least in the Beta version) and Pathfinder Society orgainzed play (which uses the plain ol' 3.5 PHB). Why Paizo had to call everything "Pathfinder", I have no idea...
#18 phaedrusxy Sep 17, 2008 12:10:55	I think a single level of monk is actually quite good for a druid, especially in a game where magic items are limited. I played a monk1/druid X in a game with almost no magic items, and never regretted it. Getting Improved Grapple and Wis to AC, plus some decent skills, seemed worth it to me.
#19 hogarth Sep 17, 2008 12:56:11	I think a single level of monk is actually quite good for a druid, especially in a game where magic items are limited. I played a monk1/druid X in a game with almost no magic items, and never regretted it. Getting Improved Grapple and Wis to AC, plus some decent skills, seemed worth it to me. I don't really see the point of taking a level of monk early, though (i.e. before wild shape + natural spell). Leather/hide armor just isn't that hard to come by. But Improved Grapple is nice, I agree.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

furious5k

Sep 15, 2008 14:51:35

I am about to start playing in the organised play Pathfinder setting and I am wondering which would be a better choice. Assuming the changed rules of Humans adding +2 to any one stat and Dwarves getting +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha. [I know, that they are currently still using plain 3.5 rules, but this is what they put in the beta]

Considering all the usual constraints of organised play and that this is going to be a slow-leveling, finished by 15 or so thing. Is it worth to play a human (no xp penalty) and taking a level of monk. It seems very tempting, in a core only game. +4 or more extra AC seems very tasty. Or would a straight druid be better (why?).

Also, could somebody explain to me how Flurry of Blows works if you are a wildshaped? Do you just make unarmed attacks and then use one of the animal's natural attacks at -5? How do you determine the number of unarmed attacks, attack bonus, damage etc. ?

Senevri

Sep 15, 2008 15:07:20

extra animal attacks are always secondary attacks.
Do note that humans get a free martial weapon proficiency at lv1.

Hmm. As much as I like monks, I'm probably gonna have to go with a "no" here... OTOH, I'm not all that familiar with how much Druid is nerfed in practice from 3.5. Cleric went significantly down, a lot closer to the Bard( who got a slight boost ) in Pathfinder, that much I know. ( still a powerful full caster, though )

A monk/cleric mix gets interesting in PF, as plant grants either cleric level or caster level to unarmed damage, too... but digressing.

So "No" on monks, because: Higher level spells are a huge thing AND wild shape moar better asap.

hogarth

Sep 15, 2008 15:19:38

I wouldn't bother with a monk level, at least at low levels. It's a +3 or +4 to AC, whereas you could wear leather/hide armor for +2 or +3 instead and have an extra level of druid.

If I wanted to multiclass, I'd consider taking a level of cleric, though, especially with the Magic domain. The ability to use cleric and wizard spells and wands is very handy in some cases.

Is this going to be for a home game, or for convention play?

furious5k

Sep 15, 2008 15:21:55

Does that mean you would make main attacks+1 (all at -2) and then ALL the natural attacks of the chosen animal (at -5)?

Is making the enemy have to roll 5 or so higher to hit you really that useless? And just to clarify, I meant taking a level of monk post-wildshape.

Also, is it worth being middle-aged? As an example,
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 8
vs.
Str 9, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 10.

I know, this starts off with 2 stats at odd. But you get a nice boost at level 4 to your wisdom and also, since it's organised play (and therefor level 16 is pretty much the peak of your character), rounding off stats at level 4 and 12 might be nicer.

furious5k

Sep 15, 2008 15:23:02

This will be an official organised play Pathfinder game, BUT we are going to run it just in our group at home.

Also, Hogarth - I imagine the bonus would be higher than that. At level 4, I should have 18 base Wisdom. By the time I actually take the level of monk (level 6 or after), I probably will have a circlet. And depending on how quickly we level, they may have come converted to Pathfinder by that time too, granting another +2. So a +5 or +6 to AC, actually. By level 12 you should be looking at +8 AC. So a Dire Bear with AC 25 instead of 17, or 27 if I cast cat's grace, or another +4 if I can convince the wizard to cast Mage Armor. [And at higher levels, he really shouldn't complain about me asking a single level 1 spell per day from him].

carnivore

Sep 15, 2008 15:26:11

+1 to both Senevri and hogarth

in a CORE only game , by 5th lvl a Druid can still get:

Dragonhide Plate: This suit of full plate is made of dragonhide, rather than metal, so druids can wear it. It is otherwise identical to masterwork full plate.
No aura (nonmagical); Price 3,300 gp.

and by 9th lvl can have +1 Wild Dragonhide Plate 19300gp

Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.

Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, baleful polymorph; Price +3 bonus.

+9 Armor to AC ...... far better than what you can get with Monk

:D

furious5k

Sep 15, 2008 15:33:31

You, sir, are an angel with D&D rules written on its wings.

For some reason, I thought the only enchantment that allows you to keep armor in wildshape was beastskin in Complete Adventurer.

Thank you in bundles.

hogarth

Sep 15, 2008 15:49:44

Unfortunately, Pathfinder Society play has severe restrictions on the equipment you have access to. For instance, you can't just buy dragonhide armor -- you have to get access to it through one of your adventures. Ditto with the Wild enhancement.

The only stuff you're guaranteed to have access to:

+1 weapons/armor/shields
potions/scrolls of 0th or 1st level spells
silver/cold iron weapons
mundane gear from the PHB (in non-fancy materials)

There are some other things that you might later get access to through your faction (e.g. +2 weapons/armor, some crappy wands [wand of Scare? WTF?!], some expensive potions, ONE or TWO types of +2 stat-boosting item), but don't get your hopes up too high.

+1 to both Senevri and hogarth

in a CORE only game , by 5th lvl a Druid can still get:

and by 9th lvl can have +1 Wild Dragonhide Plate 19300gp

+9 Armor to AC ...... far better than what you can get with Monk

:D

furious5k

Sep 15, 2008 15:54:50

Urgh. So making the assumption that I will not get access to Wild property (a good chance too, for a +3 enhancement), is the Monk still a bad idea?

Also, any suggestions on which of the (a few posts up) stat assignment is better?

#10

hogarth

Sep 15, 2008 15:57:03

Also, any suggestions on which of the (a few posts up) stat assignment is better?

On the Paizo message boards, Josh Frost reversed his decision on allowing middle-aged/old PCs. Of course, none of these rulings have been written down anywhere, so take that claim with a grain of salt.

#11

Senevri

Sep 16, 2008 5:51:26

Monk is not horrible for druids. It's just that the optimal spot to pick it is level 19.or so. :/

#12

randomfellow

Sep 16, 2008 6:46:10

I am with the anti-monk crowd.

The only reason to dip Monk is if you ever play Gestalt.

#13

hogarth

Sep 16, 2008 8:08:47

Urgh. So making the assumption that I will not get access to Wild property (a good chance too, for a +3 enhancement), is the Monk still a bad idea?

At any rate, I probably wouldn't take a level of monk before taking six levels of druid first (so you can get Natural Spell and spend most of your time in wild shape). At the rate that Pathfinder Society adventures come out, it should be 7 more months of real time (at a minimum) before you'll reach level 7. So you have plenty of time to think about it first and see what the availability of magic items and equipment will be like.

#14

furious5k

Sep 16, 2008 17:58:56

I just realised - does the Pathfinder way of doing xp (1xp per scenario, 3 gets you a level) means xp penalties for multi-classing have been scrapped?

Oh, and could you possibly link to the post? I searched for it but came up empty.

#15

hogarth

Sep 16, 2008 19:58:37

I just realised - does the Pathfinder way of doing xp (1xp per scenario, 3 gets you a level) means xp penalties for multi-classing have been scrapped?

My understanding is that any combination of classes that would give you an xp penalty is disallowed completely.

Oh, and could you possibly link to the post? I searched for it but came up empty.

Their search function is terrible! Here's the thread:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderSociety/general/questionsUnansweredRaisedByThePFSGuide&page=2
And here's the relevant post's text:

Show

Joshua J. Frost (Organized Play Coordinator), Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 01:32 PM REPLY

The next update to the guide will state that while you can make your character of any age, characters in Pathfinder Society Organized Play never receive a stat boost from doing so. IE, middle age characters use the same point buy and racial advantages as characters that are in their 20s. Yes, this is a change from a previous post.

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

#16

the_shaman

Sep 17, 2008 5:51:14

I thought the XP penalty was removed already, and favored class levels get more HP or skill points.

#17

hogarth

Sep 17, 2008 9:42:22

I thought the XP penalty was removed already, and favored class levels get more HP or skill points.

You're confusing the Pathfinder RPG (which has the changes you mention, at least in the Beta version) and Pathfinder Society orgainzed play (which uses the plain ol' 3.5 PHB).

Why Paizo had to call everything "Pathfinder", I have no idea...

#18

phaedrusxy

Sep 17, 2008 12:10:55

I think a single level of monk is actually quite good for a druid, especially in a game where magic items are limited. I played a monk1/druid X in a game with almost no magic items, and never regretted it. Getting Improved Grapple and Wis to AC, plus some decent skills, seemed worth it to me.

#19

hogarth

Sep 17, 2008 12:56:11

I think a single level of monk is actually quite good for a druid, especially in a game where magic items are limited. I played a monk1/druid X in a game with almost no magic items, and never regretted it. Getting Improved Grapple and Wis to AC, plus some decent skills, seemed worth it to me.

I don't really see the point of taking a level of monk early, though (i.e. before wild shape + natural spell). Leather/hide armor just isn't that hard to come by. But Improved Grapple is nice, I agree.