Books allowed: All "Complete", except Champion, Fiendish Codex's 1 and 2, Book of Vile Darkness. No other books, no dragon compendium (so that Death Master thing is out...although if someone wants to explain that to me I'd appreciate it.)
Also, no LA buyoff =\
I'm not in a super high powered campaign, we tend to be fairly low key, so I don't need something that's throwing around 500 damage every round...but some level of optimization would certainly be nice.
Essentially, the title says it all. I'm interested in becoming a Lich partially for concept, but thought that it might be very interesting to see if anything particularly noteworthy could be done with becoming a lich.
Books allowed: All "Complete", except Champion, Fiendish Codex's 1 and 2, Book of Vile Darkness. No other books, no dragon compendium (so that Death Master thing is out...although if someone wants to explain that to me I'd appreciate it.)
Also, no LA buyoff =\
I'm not in a super high powered campaign, we tend to be fairly low key, so I don't need something that's throwing around 500 damage every round...but some level of optimization would certainly be nice.
Oh yeah, and the Libris Mortis is allowed to...probably relevant.
Your DCs are a bit higher than average, so your save-or-x:s have more oomph. You can set up a healing pool easy enough - especially if you can craft a shadesteel golem. With proper management of your phylactery you're unkillable, but that's a rather minor benefit in actual gameplay.
Some things: Be a corpsecrafter, and do the ritual on an unhallowed altar dedicated to Vecna. That's like 4 HP per HD. Also +2 to STR, I think.
As a lich, you could drop in on a superspeed time trait plane and get yourself evolved undead template a few times.
You have a fear aura; Find a few more ways of installing fear, and fear-stacking will wipe out your enemies.
Monk has some synergy with lichdom, too. If enlightened fist seems interesting, that might be one path....
Essentially, the title says it all. I'm interested in becoming a Lich partially for concept, but thought that it might be very interesting to see if anything particularly noteworthy could be done with becoming a lich.
Books allowed: All "Complete", except Champion, Fiendish Codex's 1 and 2, Book of Vile Darkness. No other books, no dragon compendium (so that Death Master thing is out...although if someone wants to explain that to me I'd appreciate it.)
Also, no LA buyoff =\
I'm not in a super high powered campaign, we tend to be fairly low key, so I don't need something that's throwing around 500 damage every round...but some level of optimization would certainly be nice.
Interesting...alright, thanks, I'll check some of what you said out. Also, our campaigns do tend to touch a few levels into epic, meaning I could possibly end this characters career by becoming a demi-lich and having a grand time for a few levels. That alone might make it worth it...
I'm guessing Completes doesn't include the environmental books, but I have to ask. The best lich is a dry lich, after all...
Alas, no, no environmental books...This has foiled several plans in the past. I sometimes struggle to optimize specific ideas...but then I come here and see if the forums can work their magic.
Also, to the above suggestion about stacking fear effects from the lich aura, unfortunately, it only affects creatures of 5 HD or less, so this wouldn't be really useful except for REALLY screwing with low level hordes.
I'm guessing Completes doesn't include the environmental books, but I have to ask. The best lich is a dry lich, after all...
Besides ya know.. the whole water thing.
I'm guessing Completes doesn't include the environmental books, but I have to ask. The best lich is a dry lich, after all...
Besides ya know.. the whole water thing.
Bah, who gives a crap? The damage from it is weak, anyway. I don't know why people get so hung up on that. You toss a flask of water on the dry lich for 1d6 damage, and he laughs and turns you to salt. /shrug
Anyway, it's looking like theres basically no hope for having an truly effective Lich caster? (I was sort of hoping to stay spellcaster). I kind of feared as much...that +4 LA is just nasty, especially considering it really doesn't give that much in the way of benefits besides coolness factor and that whole immortality thing. Although I'm still going to hold on to a thread of hope that someone, somewhere knows how to make a Lich good.
Give it Unholy Toughness and it's probably worth the LA. Cha replacing Con to hp is awesome, especially on a sorcerer or other Cha-based caster.
The dry lich has this, and is gained via a transformative prestige class, which presumably means you don't have to pay for the LA. You can get in with cleric 3, and by ECL 13 you gain the template. It's in Sandstorm.
You're right that CHA to HP is really awesome, and that got me thinking...
Is there potential to make a Lich Eldritch Knight (or some other melee caster, I'm not that familiar) viable? Having the Liches paralyzing touch could be useful against certain opponents when you're mid beat-down, the CHA to HP would be great and solve some of the normal problems with MAD...
Alright, I'll definitely check out the dry lich and see if I can get some shenanigans going there. In the meantime...
You're right that CHA to HP is really awesome, and that got me thinking...
Is there potential to make a Lich Eldritch Knight (or some other melee caster, I'm not that familiar) viable? Having the Liches paralyzing touch could be useful against certain opponents when you're mid beat-down, the CHA to HP would be great and solve some of the normal problems with MAD...
If you go with dry lich, you're going to be a cleric. That's all the "eldritch knight" you need right there... Just take Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), slap on a 24/7 Divine Power, and go to town.
Is it possible to make a Sorc Gish Lich? (mouthful, eh?)
That might deserve it's own thread...
Fighter 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 4/Lich LA +4
Be sure to take Unholy Toughness.
So in the end, we'd get:
14 BAB
6th Level Spells (Tensers Transformation is always good...)
Ability to wear Light Armor
Abjurant Champs Mage Armor shenanigans
An off hand negative energy attack with a chance to paralyze...
d12s +CHA for HP (Yay sorcerers...)
And, assuming I was a Human, 10 total bonus feats. Of course, if another race was better, I'd do that.
Honestly, this isn't the worse thing I've ever seen done...can anyone think of some particularly strong advice? Feats I'd really need to get? PrCs and such that might net me that one more sorc level to get 7th level spells, or boost me to 16 BAB?
Edit: Not that the ability to wear Light Armor matters, as Abjurant Champion negates the need.
Walker in the wastes is the most powerful option but its poorly worded class feature would make me personally uncomfortable with asking for the template without level adjustment.In a more balanced game but still wanting to stay competitive I'd go dread necro.
This had me very interested...I don't believe this is as good as it could be, and I would love some advice, but this is the kind of thing I was thinking of...
Fighter 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 4/Lich LA +4
Be sure to take Unholy Toughness.
Unholy Toughness is not a feat. It's a special quality of some undead, including the dry lich.
Dread Necromancer is from Heroes of Horror, if I recall, so unfortunately I can't use it.
And my bad, Phaedrus, I thought it was a feat or some such. Can it be obtained by a regular Lich? Again, if I can be a dry lich, by god I'll do it...but I want to contingency plan if my DM doesn't allow it, which there is a good chance of, and that Gish Lich idea seemed like it might have some potential.
Spellthief 2/Diviner 4/Unseen Sear 10/LA 4
10 BAB
5d6 SA
CL 16 with Master Spellthief, 7th level spells
easily have +45 Hide/Move Silently
Fighter 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 4/Lich LA +4
Your book list doesn't include any abjuration spells that add an armor bonus to AC that I can think of. You can ask your DM to allow abjurant armor to apply to mage armor or ask about researching a custom spell.
You could try going straight stalwart sorcerer (Complete Mage), which is one of the few things that gives you extra HP. A skillful weapon (Complete Arcane) would give you base attack bonus 12 at 16 HD, plus proficiency with the weapon.
Dry lich has the same problem as dread necromancer that its in a book outside those acceptable but I suppose the real question is how to build an optimized 16th level caster who can fight like a bastard
I would take:
1 fighter / 4 monk / 1 or 2 ur-priest depending on if you want turn attempts and the rest in sacred fist ( which should have full spellcasting as the text should over rule the table ) making sure to pick up practised spell caster to meet lich pereqs.
So you have 9th level spells 2 off full bab and really good saves
Well, given the skill bonuses and paralyzing touch, a sneak attack wizard build might do well for the +4 LA.
Spellthief 2/Diviner 4/Unseen Sear 10/LA 4
10 BAB
5d6 SA
CL 16 with Master Spellthief, 7th level spells
easily have +45 Hide/Move Silently
That was the idea with the Fallen Paladin/Blackguard. It gets 3d6 sneak attack, 4th level spells, full BAB, and a fiendish mount based on its character level, along with Charisma to saves and Aura of Despair. You also have Rebuke Undead to fuel divine feats, if you want. It should actually make a decent melee-focused lich.
The main limitation would be the crappy amount of skill points, but if you start out as a human with a decent Int, it should be tolerable.
You're right that CHA to HP is really awesome, and that got me thinking....
Points for Pathfinder RPG - Their undead only get a d8 HD, but they use CHA instead of CON for bonus HP, saves and DCs. Of course, getting a D12 HD AND CHA to HP is nice.
I think our epic game's Dread Necro actually had about 400 HP, after finishing the lichdom ritual, what with our houserule of rerolling 1s in HP, combined with Corpsecrafter and doing the ritual in the temple of Vecna.
Bah, who gives a crap? The damage from it is weak, anyway. I don't know why people get so hung up on that. You toss a flask of water on the dry lich for 1d6 damage, and he laughs and turns you to salt. /shrug
You toss a dry lich into the Elemental Plane of Water, or a dimension locked oubliette capped with the Decanter of Endless Water, he'll laugh the rest of his life. :P
Well, for a well-prepared dry lich, that should only be a speed bump, too. Still, I seem to recall a dry-demilich in dis died in despair due to dispater's devious deeds.
Bah, who gives a crap? The damage from it is weak, anyway. I don't know why people get so hung up on that. You toss a flask of water on the dry lich for 1d6 damage, and he laughs and turns you to salt. /shrug
You toss a dry lich into the Elemental Plane of Water, or a dimension locked oubliette capped with the Decanter of Endless Water, he'll laugh the rest of his life. :P
Well, for a well-prepared dry lich, that should only be a speed bump, too. Still, I seem to recall a dry-demilich in dis died in despair due to dispater's devious deeds.
What's the damage for total immersion? 20d6? That's what it is for lava, so I don't imagine it would be worse than that. Yeah, it's bad, but if they're going to do all that planeshifting and what-not on you (which you'll get a Will save against...), they could also just immerse you in lava. Unless you're immune to fire damage, it winds up being the same thing.
I guess you do have to worry about grapplers jumping in the river with you, but Freedom of Movement is a 4th level cleric spell. By the time you become a dry lich, you are pretty much guaranteed to be able to cast it (unless you did something really stupid like entered the class as a ranger).
And I don't think examples from the Iron Siege are really all that applicable to most games, either...
Your book list doesn't include any abjuration spells that add an armor bonus to AC that I can think of. You can ask your DM to allow abjurant armor to apply to mage armor or ask about researching a custom spell.
DM house ruled that abjurant armor does apply to Mage Armor, since it specifically says Abjurant Champions rely on spells like Mage Armor and Shield for their armor...and that's just silly if it doesn't work.
That Blackguard idea is starting to look pretty appealing. Would the Lichs natural attack with the paralyzing touch be considered part of a normal full attack? (So, 4 sword swings plus a paralyzing touch)?
Would the Lichs natural attack with the paralyzing touch be considered part of a normal full attack? (So, 4 sword swings plus a paralyzing touch)?
Yeah, but the touch attack would be at -5, since it would be a secondary attack. This is explicitly covered in the lich description.
Do you have any suggestions for what to go besides Fallen Paladin/Blackguard/Lich? Not positive what the best way to fill out those other levels would be. And thanks a ton for all of the help thus far!
Cool, thank you. I've never actually played a legitimately melee focused character. By the way Phaedrus, I read your Blackguard/Nar Demonbinder build and loved it, quite sad I can't go Demonbinder. Very impressive, well done.
Do you have any suggestions for what to go besides Fallen Paladin/Blackguard/Lich? Not positive what the best way to fill out those other levels would be. And thanks a ton for all of the help thus far!
Thanks. That's kind of a hard call on where to got. Pretty much anything you do is going to be weaker than a full caster at that point, and it's nearly impossible for you to gain casting beyond your blackguard casting due your already high ECL.
You can't use Tome of Battle, right? The 1/2 IL from non-initiator classes makes that a nice thing to tack onto the later levels of any melee build.
I'd probably tack on things that add to your sneak attack dice, and/or give you interesting abilities.
Anything 5 (qualifying for Urpriest) Ur-Priest 1 or 2, anything 9 or 10 progressing ur-priest casting.
For my money, that'd be something like:
Melee build:
Things like:
Lion Pounce Barbarian 1
Rogue 2 or 3 (Evasion/sneak attack/skills, if you want it)
Fighter 2 (bonus feats)
Anything Tome of Battle, it's all great
Cleric 1 if you keep domain powers and turn undead (depends on DM)
Urpriest 1, then
Divine Orcale 2 (if you didn't get evasion from Rogue)
Contemplative 2 (Bonus Domain, Slippery Mind)
If you went sneak attack in the melee base there are a number of cleric/sneak attack PrC's such as:
Shadowbane Stalker (CAdv) loses it's 1st caster level at 4, so a 3 level dip
CS, Spellwarp Sniper, which gets 5/5 casting.
For my money, the sneaky build is something like:
Rogue 2/Lion Pounce Barbarian 1/Base class with Will save 2/Urpriest 2/Shadowbane Stalker 3/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Anything 1 (Tome of Battle is best)
Frankly, +4 LA just begs for ur-priest in my opinion.
The Caster Build:
Arcanist 5 (need to boost fort save somehow)/Ur-Priest 2/MT 8/Arcane PRC 1 ---
Or
Arcanist 3/Early Entry PrC 2 to fulfill save requirements/Urpriest 2/MT 8/Arcane PRC 1
or
Arcanist 3 or 4/Anything 1 to fulfill save requirements/Urpriest 2/MT 8/Arcane PrC 1.
You're getting all the upriest goodies with 7th level arcane spells as well.
Spellwarp Sniper, CS, d6, Will, 5/5, 0.75 BAB, 4+int, 6th level (Requires CC sneak attack/skrimish). Gain some cool ray abilities. Decent for a caster cleric or a roguish cleric.
Some things: Be a corpsecrafter, and do the ritual on an unhallowed altar dedicated to Vecna. That's like 4 HP per HD. Also +2 to STR, I think.
Corpsecrafter only gives +2 HP...does the unhallowed altar actually help, or was that for flavor? And if it does help, wheres that rule?
Well, looks like I have a solid plan for if I play a dry lich...but if, as I sort of expect, my DM doesn't allow that (very good chance)...
Is it possible to make a Sorc Gish Lich? (mouthful, eh?)
That might deserve it's own thread...
The best Gish Lich option is Duskblade imo. Duskblades put out the damage of a fighter while also aplying spell damage. Spellsword is the duskblades little brother. If your dm alows pouncing Barbarians and Arcane Channeling on a charge a level in Barbarian for this build would be amazing.Combine with Leap Attack and Shock Trooper for maximum efectiveness.
Well, looks like I have a solid plan for if I play a dry lich...but if, as I sort of expect, my DM doesn't allow that (very good chance)...
Is it possible to make a Sorc Gish Lich? (mouthful, eh?)
That might deserve it's own thread...
The best Gish Lich option is Duskblade imo. Duskblades put out the damage of a fighter while also aplying spell damage. Spellsword is the duskblades little brother. If your dm alows pouncing Barbarians and Arcane Channeling on a charge a level in Barbarian for this build would be amazing.Combine with Leap Attack and Shock Trooper for maximum efectiveness.
Unfortunately, Duskblade is PHBII, and not allowed in my campaign. =(
Thanks for the advice though, and boy do I wish we could make Duskblades...
Well, looks like I have a solid plan for if I play a dry lich...but if, as I sort of expect, my DM doesn't allow that (very good chance)...
Is it possible to make a Sorc Gish Lich? (mouthful, eh?)
That might deserve it's own thread...
The best Gish Lich option is Duskblade imo. Duskblades put out the damage of a fighter while also aplying spell damage. Spellsword is the duskblades little brother. If your dm alows pouncing Barbarians and Arcane Channeling on a charge a level in Barbarian for this build would be amazing.Combine with Leap Attack and Shock Trooper for maximum efectiveness.
Unfortunately, Duskblade is PHBII, and not allowed in my campaign. =( Thanks for the advice though, and boy do I wish we could make Duskblades...
wow. the completes are legal but not phbII? whats the reason. I donT know what i would do if i couldn't make a duskblade. I make one like every campaign. they always die really quikly tho as they always have a battlemind and pull a leroy jenkins at some point in time. fun stuff.
Well, given the skill bonuses and paralyzing touch, a sneak attack wizard build might do well for the +4 LA.
Spellthief 2/Diviner 4/Unseen Sear 10/LA 4
10 BAB
5d6 SA
CL 16 with Master Spellthief, 7th level spells
easily have +45 Hide/Move Silently
That was the idea with the Fallen Paladin/Blackguard. It gets 3d6 sneak attack, 4th level spells, full BAB, and a fiendish mount based on its character level, along with Charisma to saves and Aura of Despair. You also have Rebuke Undead to fuel divine feats, if you want. It should actually make a decent melee-focused lich.
The main limitation would be the crappy amount of skill points, but if you start out as a human with a decent Int, it should be tolerable.
I thought you might be interested in what will probably end up being the final build of this:
Start Paladin 4/Rogue 2/Shadowbane Inquisitor 7, then become a Blackguard and (because Inquisitor and Paladin stack for counting as Fallen) trade all 4 Paladin levels for Blackguard levels. (Technically, this means I no longer meet the pre-reqs for the Inquisitor, but my DM ruled that this was OK and thinks the whole setup was just badly worded.)
In the end, I wind up with Rogue 2/Shadowbane Inquisitor 7/Blackguard 7/Lich +4
Which results in +6d6 Sneak Attack, +15 BAB, +18 Reflex with Evasion (Not bad, considering Liches are immune to most things that require Will and all things that require Fort but Disintegrate), 4th level Blackguard spells and a Paralyzing Touch attack with a DC 28 every time I full attack (considering CHA 18 starting +4 Bonuses + 6 Cloak + 2 Lich)
What level are you starting at?Dry Lich is a +5 LA template, just in case you missed it.
Although I'm still going to hold on to a thread of hope that someone, somewhere knows how to make a Lich good.
Baelnorn!
...what?