Is Eldritch Glaive weapon finesse-able? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Is Eldritch Glaive weapon finesse-able?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
deviknyte
Jan 04, 2009 8:26:18 Is Eldritch Glaive weapon finesse-able?
#2
almagest
Jan 04, 2009 13:03:40 It doesn't count as a light weapon, nor does the invocation text list it as finessable, so no. Not sure why you'd really need that anyway, since it's a touch attack, and you're always better off power attacking anyway.
#3
oprick
Jan 04, 2009 14:53:46 I was wondering this last night, though in a more general sense. I agree with the second post, about how specific text does not condone it, &c.

However, 'touch spells' are weapon finessable according to CArcane. I wonder if this includes spells which produce a weapon affect which strikes as a touch attack (ie. ice axe) Any hard and fast ruling on this one?

I have several more points to add:

Eldritch Blast is Weapon-Focus-able, but does it qualify for Weapon Specialization? or to feats like the DMC Dead Eye? the feat text is as follows (shortened for copyright considerations):

...Dex bonus on damage rolls made with ranged weapons for which you have the weapon focus feat...

CArcane makes it extremely clear how you can use weapon focus for spells, and calls these 'weaponlike spells'

I think that, if permissible, weapon specialization and dead eye could up the EB damage on a fighter/warlock build considerably

Warlock 1/Figher 4 could have an EB (within 30') hitting at 4(BAB)+1(wfocus)+1(point blank shot)+dex (lets say an average 4) =+10
for 1d6 + 1(point blank) +2(w.spec) +4(dex) = 1d6+7 not bad at 5th level

(im not sure if this contributed, but when you're on a roll, you're on a roll)
#4
jenos
Jan 04, 2009 15:13:05 But compare that damage to a straight warlock 5, with an attack bonus of +9(+3 BAB, +1 Wp Focus, +1 PBS, +4 Dex) but the damage is significantly higher 3d6+5(+1 PBS, +4 Dead Eye), an average of 15 damage as opposed to the average 10 damage of the fighter/warlock.

Not to mention warlock 5 is 1 level away from lesser invocations(Which include fell flight and flee the scene). In any case, ignoring the fighter vs warlock class feature issue, dipping 4 levels into fighter is a poor way to increase EB damage, because 4 levels give you an average of 2 damage increase, whereas 1d6 eldritch blast gives you 3.5 damage, and 4 levels gives you at least 1d6 and in some cases 2d6(1->5, 3->7, etc).

In any case, nothing to do with the topic, but fighter isn't worth it if you're maximizing warlock damage.
#5
rhatahema
Jan 04, 2009 15:18:12 Unfortunately Eldritch Glaive's wording is...bad. It does not specify Eldritch Glaive as any type of weapon besides a reach weapon, excluding it from feats like power attack, weapon finesse, and the like. It should be considered a weapon-like spell, but there are only two types of weapon-like spells according to Complete Arcane; Touch Range spells and Ranged spells. Eldritch Glaive isn't exactly either. You could probably make a case to your DM though.
#6
gilfalas_elaandrin
Jan 09, 2009 12:52:33 Edrtich Glaive is just a modifier to the Invocation Eldritch Blast. As such, all uses of Eldritch Glaive are subject to it being a SLA and a weapon like SLA.

It is an eldritch blast who's range has been shorted (to 10 reach), who's attack mechanic is improved (to Iterative Touch Attacks) and who's fluff has been altered (it's looks are no longer a 'zap' but an 'energy looking weapony thing').

But it is still an Eldritch Blast. It's description says it is Glaive LIKE. Nowhere does it say it is actually a weapon so it defaults to the main power, EB.

You cannot Finesse SLA's nor can you power attack with them, cleave with them, whirlwind attack with them, rapid shot them other anything else in that vein.

I mean Iterative touch attacks for your EB damage is pretty nice all in all.
#7
dastardlydan
Jan 09, 2009 16:23:31 EB is a ray (forget where it says that.)

In my games, I rule that the Eldritch Glaive's shape actually takes the shape of a spear that is part of the Warlock's proficiencies. Any feats that apply to that spear, you can take and it will apply to the Glaive.
That's my house rules, by the way.
#8
true_shinken
Jan 11, 2009 18:32:10 Eldritch Blast is finesse-able, it works like a touch spell.
#9
reis
Jan 12, 2009 22:39:24
But it is still an Eldritch Blast. It's description says it is Glaive LIKE. Nowhere does it say it is actually a weapon so it defaults to the main power, EB.

this
#10
deviknyte
Jan 13, 2009 11:00:13 Touch spells are weapon finesse-able but not weapons that make touch attacks. If I cast wraith strike on my great sword it's now a touch attack, doesn't mean I can finesse it. Also just because it's a SLA doesn't mean that it can't be finessed. If I could cast Inflict as a SLA I could weapon finesse it.

So it says it counts as a spear though? That means it CAN'T be finessed. Thanks everyone.
#11
jgumbyrx
Jun 01, 2009 22:05:22 nevermind.

corrected by True Shinken -- thanks, TS
#12
gilfalas_elaandrin
Jun 02, 2009 0:19:11 Mispost
#13
true_shinken
Jun 02, 2009 8:37:45 Dead-Eye was errata'd to only +1 BAB requirement.
#14
jgumbyrx
Jun 02, 2009 9:56:46
Dead-Eye was errata'd to only +1 BAB requirement.

thanks. didn't realize that there even was one -- found it.
#15
gilfalas_elaandrin
Jun 02, 2009 10:01:52 Dead Eye is a +4 on ranged damage? What book is that in?
#16
jgumbyrx
Jun 02, 2009 10:13:24
Dead Eye is a +4 on ranged damage? What book is that in?

no -- it gives a bonus to damage on ranged attacks equal to your dex mod. it's in Dragon Compendium (the feat was originally found in Dragon Magazine #304)
#17
xakypshalorn
Jun 02, 2009 10:15:42 It's in the Dragon Compendium, and it's not +4, it's +dex damage. And a staple for many of my personal Archer builds. I'm not sure how much good it would be for a Warlock, given the nature of their options.

Though I will say this, 4 levels of fighter is worth more than just weapon specialization. It's 3 free feets, +1 final BAB (meaning 4 iterative attacks, something useful to Martially Oriented warlock builds), and access to weapon mastery. Granted I'm not sure which eldritch mastery you would want lol, maybe you can squeeze an "Eldritch Mastery: All uses of Eldritch Blast apply" or something past your DM.

Edit: Ninja'd on the deadeye lol.
#18
guest954910901
Sep 16, 2009 3:31:30
I happened on this thread by chance: Eldritch Glaive is classified as a "weapon like spell" and delivers damage via melee touch attacks. Therefore - it is subject to rules as stated in Complete Arcane: page 73.

"Weapon Finesse: You can treat touch spells as light weapons and use your Dexterity modifier (instead of your Strength modifier) on your touch attack rolls with such spells."

Rays automatically function off Dex: no one hurls a ray using their strength modifier. For all RAW purposes, eldritch glaive -should- be treated like anyt other weapon like spell which deals touch attacks: similar to ice axe or flameblade. Which means you cannot add strength damage and cannot use power attack with it because of that. House rules may be different, I've known plenty of house rules stating that the eldritch glaive invocation functioned like an actual weapon, a glaive or spear. In which case: you could not finesse it because you cannot use weapon finesse on spears or glaives.

As an energy based weapon like spell which deals touch attacks: you can weapon finesse eldritch glaive. Same with any other spells under those classifications like ice axe or flameblade.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 deviknyte Jan 04, 2009 8:26:18	Is Eldritch Glaive weapon finesse-able?
#2 almagest Jan 04, 2009 13:03:40	It doesn't count as a light weapon, nor does the invocation text list it as finessable, so no. Not sure why you'd really need that anyway, since it's a touch attack, and you're always better off power attacking anyway.
#3 oprick Jan 04, 2009 14:53:46	I was wondering this last night, though in a more general sense. I agree with the second post, about how specific text does not condone it, &c. However, 'touch spells' are weapon finessable according to CArcane. I wonder if this includes spells which produce a weapon affect which strikes as a touch attack (ie. ice axe) Any hard and fast ruling on this one? I have several more points to add: Eldritch Blast is Weapon-Focus-able, but does it qualify for Weapon Specialization? or to feats like the DMC Dead Eye? the feat text is as follows (shortened for copyright considerations): ...Dex bonus on damage rolls made with ranged weapons for which you have the weapon focus feat... CArcane makes it extremely clear how you can use weapon focus for spells, and calls these 'weaponlike spells' I think that, if permissible, weapon specialization and dead eye could up the EB damage on a fighter/warlock build considerably Warlock 1/Figher 4 could have an EB (within 30') hitting at 4(BAB)+1(wfocus)+1(point blank shot)+dex (lets say an average 4) =+10 for 1d6 + 1(point blank) +2(w.spec) +4(dex) = 1d6+7 not bad at 5th level (im not sure if this contributed, but when you're on a roll, you're on a roll)
#4 jenos Jan 04, 2009 15:13:05	But compare that damage to a straight warlock 5, with an attack bonus of +9(+3 BAB, +1 Wp Focus, +1 PBS, +4 Dex) but the damage is significantly higher 3d6+5(+1 PBS, +4 Dead Eye), an average of 15 damage as opposed to the average 10 damage of the fighter/warlock. Not to mention warlock 5 is 1 level away from lesser invocations(Which include fell flight and flee the scene). In any case, ignoring the fighter vs warlock class feature issue, dipping 4 levels into fighter is a poor way to increase EB damage, because 4 levels give you an average of 2 damage increase, whereas 1d6 eldritch blast gives you 3.5 damage, and 4 levels gives you at least 1d6 and in some cases 2d6(1->5, 3->7, etc). In any case, nothing to do with the topic, but fighter isn't worth it if you're maximizing warlock damage.
#5 rhatahema Jan 04, 2009 15:18:12	Unfortunately Eldritch Glaive's wording is...bad. It does not specify Eldritch Glaive as any type of weapon besides a reach weapon, excluding it from feats like power attack, weapon finesse, and the like. It should be considered a weapon-like spell, but there are only two types of weapon-like spells according to Complete Arcane; Touch Range spells and Ranged spells. Eldritch Glaive isn't exactly either. You could probably make a case to your DM though.
#6 gilfalas_elaandrin Jan 09, 2009 12:52:33	Edrtich Glaive is just a modifier to the Invocation Eldritch Blast. As such, all uses of Eldritch Glaive are subject to it being a SLA and a weapon like SLA. It is an eldritch blast who's range has been shorted (to 10 reach), who's attack mechanic is improved (to Iterative Touch Attacks) and who's fluff has been altered (it's looks are no longer a 'zap' but an 'energy looking weapony thing'). But it is still an Eldritch Blast. It's description says it is Glaive LIKE. Nowhere does it say it is actually a weapon so it defaults to the main power, EB. You cannot Finesse SLA's nor can you power attack with them, cleave with them, whirlwind attack with them, rapid shot them other anything else in that vein. I mean Iterative touch attacks for your EB damage is pretty nice all in all.
#7 dastardlydan Jan 09, 2009 16:23:31	EB is a ray (forget where it says that.) In my games, I rule that the Eldritch Glaive's shape actually takes the shape of a spear that is part of the Warlock's proficiencies. Any feats that apply to that spear, you can take and it will apply to the Glaive. That's my house rules, by the way.
#8 true_shinken Jan 11, 2009 18:32:10	Eldritch Blast is finesse-able, it works like a touch spell.
#9 reis Jan 12, 2009 22:39:24	But it is still an Eldritch Blast. It's description says it is Glaive LIKE. Nowhere does it say it is actually a weapon so it defaults to the main power, EB. this
#10 deviknyte Jan 13, 2009 11:00:13	Touch spells are weapon finesse-able but not weapons that make touch attacks. If I cast wraith strike on my great sword it's now a touch attack, doesn't mean I can finesse it. Also just because it's a SLA doesn't mean that it can't be finessed. If I could cast Inflict as a SLA I could weapon finesse it. So it says it counts as a spear though? That means it CAN'T be finessed. Thanks everyone.
#11 jgumbyrx Jun 01, 2009 22:05:22	nevermind. corrected by True Shinken -- thanks, TS
#12 gilfalas_elaandrin Jun 02, 2009 0:19:11	Mispost
#13 true_shinken Jun 02, 2009 8:37:45	Dead-Eye was errata'd to only +1 BAB requirement.
#14 jgumbyrx Jun 02, 2009 9:56:46	Dead-Eye was errata'd to only +1 BAB requirement. thanks. didn't realize that there even was one -- found it.
#15 gilfalas_elaandrin Jun 02, 2009 10:01:52	Dead Eye is a +4 on ranged damage? What book is that in?
#16 jgumbyrx Jun 02, 2009 10:13:24	Dead Eye is a +4 on ranged damage? What book is that in? no -- it gives a bonus to damage on ranged attacks equal to your dex mod. it's in Dragon Compendium (the feat was originally found in Dragon Magazine #304)
#17 xakypshalorn Jun 02, 2009 10:15:42	It's in the Dragon Compendium, and it's not +4, it's +dex damage. And a staple for many of my personal Archer builds. I'm not sure how much good it would be for a Warlock, given the nature of their options. Though I will say this, 4 levels of fighter is worth more than just weapon specialization. It's 3 free feets, +1 final BAB (meaning 4 iterative attacks, something useful to Martially Oriented warlock builds), and access to weapon mastery. Granted I'm not sure which eldritch mastery you would want lol, maybe you can squeeze an "Eldritch Mastery: All uses of Eldritch Blast apply" or something past your DM. Edit: Ninja'd on the deadeye lol.
#18 guest954910901 Sep 16, 2009 3:31:30	I happened on this thread by chance: Eldritch Glaive is classified as a "weapon like spell" and delivers damage via melee touch attacks. Therefore - it is subject to rules as stated in Complete Arcane: page 73. "Weapon Finesse: You can treat touch spells as light weapons and use your Dexterity modifier (instead of your Strength modifier) on your touch attack rolls with such spells." Rays automatically function off Dex: no one hurls a ray using their strength modifier. For all RAW purposes, eldritch glaive -should- be treated like anyt other weapon like spell which deals touch attacks: similar to ice axe or flameblade. Which means you cannot add strength damage and cannot use power attack with it because of that. House rules may be different, I've known plenty of house rules stating that the eldritch glaive invocation functioned like an actual weapon, a glaive or spear. In which case: you could not finesse it because you cannot use weapon finesse on spears or glaives. As an energy based weapon like spell which deals touch attacks: you can weapon finesse eldritch glaive. Same with any other spells under those classifications like ice axe or flameblade.