Sorry if I have posted this question in the wrong section. I'm totally new on this forum (and to D&D for that matter).
Anyways, I am building a warlock for our next campaign and I want to go Hellfire Warlock. My plan was to use Hellfire Blast as my primary damage source (with shape soulmeld: Strongheart Vestment feat), but I was wondering if it is possible to gain benefit from the Hellfire Blast bonus damage, while using a Essence Invocations like "Vitriolic Blast" (Comp. Arcane, page 136)?
At first this was my idea, but then I realized the wording saying, that you "turn" your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast, and thus it seems you can't use a Vitriolic Blast, since it is no longer a eldritch blast? Is this correct?
Thanks in advance.
Best regards
Jalle.
Sorry if I have posted this question in the wrong section. I'm totally new on this forum (and to D&D for that matter).
Anyways, I am building a warlock for our next campaign and I want to go Hellfire Warlock. My plan was to use Hellfire Blast as my primary damage source (with shape soulmeld: Strongheart Vestment feat), but I was wondering if it is possible to gain benefit from the Hellfire Blast bonus damage, while using a Essence Invocations like "Vitriolic Blast" (Comp. Arcane, page 136)?
At first this was my idea, but then I realized the wording saying, that you "turn" your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast, and thus it seems you can't use a Vitriolic Blast, since it is no longer a eldritch blast? Is this correct?
Thanks in advance.
Best regards
Jalle.
1) Oh, you opened a can of worms on the strongheart vest / hellfire blast trick. People have fought vicious battles to decide if that works or not (I, along with the majority I know of, believe it does not work - you aren't spending the cost stipulated in the Hellfire Blast). If you want to avoid fallout, switch to one level of Binder and forge a pact with Naberius, which everyone agrees does work.
2) Hellfire Blast is not like an essence: You can take any blast, add on one Essence and/or one Shape, and then make the whole thing Hellfire if you want. What isn't clear is how the damage changes if you use two damage-changing effects. (I think it's easiest to treat the whole thing as hellfire, but the effects of the essence still apply - so a hellfire vitriolic blast would deal hellfire damage, but would inherit the 2d6 lingering acid damage and bypass SR effects of a vitriolic blast.)
Technically speaking, if your name-change argument worked, you couldn't combine essences or shapes: You have to add Brimstone Blast to Eldrich Blast, but if you're invoking Eldritch Chain...? The result is a Brimstone Chain, but that's fine. In this case, you'd get a Hellfire Brimstone Chain.
1) Oh, you opened a can of worms on the strongheart vest / hellfire blast trick. People have fought vicious battles to decide if that works or not (I, along with the majority I know of, believe it does not work - you aren't spending the cost stipulated in the Hellfire Blast). If you want to avoid fallout, switch to one level of Binder and forge a pact with Naberius, which everyone agrees does work.
2) Hellfire Blast is not like an essence: You can take any blast, add on one Essence and/or one Shape, and then make the whole thing Hellfire if you want. What isn't clear is how the damage changes if you use two damage-changing effects. (I think it's easiest to treat the whole thing as hellfire, but the effects of the essence still apply - so a hellfire vitriolic blast would deal hellfire damage, but would inherit the 2d6 lingering acid damage and bypass SR effects of a vitriolic blast.)
Technically speaking, if your name-change argument worked, you couldn't combine essences or shapes: You have to add Brimstone Blast to Eldrich Blast, but if you're invoking Eldritch Chain...? The result is a Brimstone Chain, but that's fine. In this case, you'd get a Hellfire Brimstone Chain.
Thanks alot for the quick response! Yes I've realized there's an raging discussing whether this is possible or not. I am waiting for my (unexperinced) DM to tell me his verdict. My backup plan is dipping binder as you are mentioning, and if he denies me that option, I'm forced to get me a Rod of Bodily Restoration.
Oh I'm relieved to hear that! Would I be able to change all the dice to acid damage if this would be benefitial at some point? (and is this even likely?).
Once again thanks!
I suggest you NOT play games with your DM and just go to the Binder. Things will work out much better if you keep things above the board. You're attempting to sneak an exploit past him, and that's not a good sign.
==Aelryinth
You'd simply change the order in which you apply them. You'd Hellfire the blast and then change it to Acid (Burning Devil's Blood Warlock Blast!).
I suggest you NOT play games with your DM and just go to the Binder. Things will work out much better if you keep things above the board. You're attempting to sneak an exploit past him, and that's not a good sign.
==Aelryinth
Thanks!
Regarding the soulmend feat; I have told him what it does and why I want it, so I'm not trying to sneak anything, just hoping he'll let me ;).
Binding Naberius (?) should work, however, since all it does is heal the damage again afterwards. Further, this isn't completely free - if you then take ability damage from another source, Naberius can't heal both, so essentially you're giving up that benefit to counter Hellfire's drawback. There's also the fact that, however briefly, your Con will drop lower, meaning that if you are injured you could kill yourself, and if you are attacked whilst at a lower Con, you have to face that with the decreased health and Fort save etc.
Regarding the soulmend feat; I have told him what it does and why I want it, so I'm not trying to sneak anything, just hoping he'll let me ;).
But if you haven't pointed out that it's contested, and why it's contested, you're still only presenting half of the story, i.e. sneaking it in.
The basic, two-sentence summary is that Hellfire Blast is worded slightly less tightly than it should be, and says that the Constitution damage is a price (i.e. you pay the price and get the effect). Strongheart Vest reduces the damage you take; if you take 0 damage, then you didn't take the damage that would let you pay for Hellfire Blast. (On the flipside, Naberius lets you pay the price, and then have it refunded due to the pact's rapid ability healing. If you take extra damage from elsewhere Naberius just takes longer to heal.)
A quick editorial: The game already has the perfect mechanic to handle what Hellfire Blast demands, but because that mechanic showed up in the XPH, most of the designers never bothered to read it. If Hellfire Blast had said Constitution BURN, none of this rules warring would have happened. (Example use of ability burn: The Body Fuel feat and the psychofeedback power.) The XPH had a lot of such genius mechanics in it, but for some reason most of them went languished as the game went on (with only psi focus and the immediate action entering the game as a whole). But I digress.
Regarding the soulmend feat; I have told him what it does and why I want it, so I'm not trying to sneak anything, just hoping he'll let me ;).
But if you haven't pointed out that it's contested, and why it's contested, you're still only presenting half of the story, i.e. sneaking it in.
The basic, two-sentence summary is that Hellfire Blast is worded slightly less tightly than it should be, and says that the Constitution damage is a price (i.e. you pay the price and get the effect). Strongheart Vest reduces the damage you take; if you take 0 damage, then you didn't take the damage that would let you pay for Hellfire Blast. (On the flipside, Naberius lets you pay the price, and then have it refunded due to the pact's rapid ability healing. If you take extra damage from elsewhere Naberius just takes longer to heal.)
A quick editorial: The game already has the perfect mechanic to handle what Hellfire Blast demands, but because that mechanic showed up in the XPH, most of the designers never bothered to read it. If Hellfire Blast had said Constitution BURN, none of this rules warring would have happened. (Example use of ability burn: The Body Fuel feat and the psychofeedback power.) The XPH had a lot of such genius mechanics in it, but for some reason most of them went languished as the game went on (with only psi focus and the immediate action entering the game as a whole). But I digress.
I had already shown him the hellfire blast description and made him pay attentioning to the wording, so I wasn't really sneaking anything in :D. Anyways at first he thought it was okay, but later changed it, and he wouldn't even let me dip binder.
. So now I'm stucked with a rod of bodily restoration. It might probably be for the best though. I don't want the other party members to call "cheese" too much.Thanks for the lesson nevertheless.
The only advantage of the warlock, that he can do it all day, doesn't mean anything unless you're trying to defend a narrow pass against thousands of troops. A typical combat lasting 2-10 rounds, a spellcaster is going to show more and stronger stuff.
==Aelryinth
Regarding the soulmend feat; I have told him what it does and why I want it, so I'm not trying to sneak anything, just hoping he'll let me ;).
But if you haven't pointed out that it's contested, and why it's contested, you're still only presenting half of the story, i.e. sneaking it in.
The basic, two-sentence summary is that Hellfire Blast is worded slightly less tightly than it should be, and says that the Constitution damage is a price (i.e. you pay the price and get the effect). Strongheart Vest reduces the damage you take; if you take 0 damage, then you didn't take the damage that would let you pay for Hellfire Blast. (On the flipside, Naberius lets you pay the price, and then have it refunded due to the pact's rapid ability healing. If you take extra damage from elsewhere Naberius just takes longer to heal.)
A quick editorial: The game already has the perfect mechanic to handle what Hellfire Blast demands, but because that mechanic showed up in the XPH, most of the designers never bothered to read it. If Hellfire Blast had said Constitution BURN, none of this rules warring would have happened. (Example use of ability burn: The Body Fuel feat and the psychofeedback power.) The XPH had a lot of such genius mechanics in it, but for some reason most of them went languished as the game went on (with only psi focus and the immediate action entering the game as a whole). But I digress.
Calling the abomination that is ability burn a genius mechanic is being way, way too generous with it. Nothing that penalizes you for an entire day in exchange for a brief flash of power is genius.
Calling the abomination that is ability burn a genius mechanic is being way, way too generous with it. Nothing that penalizes you for an entire day in exchange for a brief flash of power is genius.
I don't have any general problem with ability burn as a mechanic, I just haven't seen a case where the cost really seemed worth the gain.
Calling the abomination that is ability burn a genius mechanic is being way, way too generous with it. Nothing that penalizes you for an entire day in exchange for a brief flash of power is genius.
I don't have any general problem with ability burn as a mechanic, I just haven't seen a case where the cost really seemed worth the gain.
That's because anything worth taking ability burn for has to be supremely overpowered, as you have to take a penalty to your skills for the rest of the day for it. It'd have to be something like this, pretty much:
Master Plan
You've got a cunning plan, and everyone else is just a pawn.
Prerequisite: Intelligence 18+
Benefit: Once per day, when presented with a situation or combat encounter, you can instantly declare you are executing a Master Plan, and describe how you overcome the situation or defeat the combat without making any rolls. You suffer 2 points of Intelligence burn afterward.
Calling the abomination that is ability burn a genius mechanic is being way, way too generous with it. Nothing that penalizes you for an entire day in exchange for a brief flash of power is genius.
I don't have any general problem with ability burn as a mechanic, I just haven't seen a case where the cost really seemed worth the gain.
That's because anything worth taking ability burn for has to be supremely overpowered, as you have to take a penalty to your skills for the rest of the day for it. It'd have to be something like this, pretty much:
Master Plan
You've got a cunning plan, and everyone else is just a pawn.
Prerequisite: Intelligence 18+
Benefit: Once per day, when presented with a situation or combat encounter, you can instantly declare you are executing a Master Plan, and describe how you overcome the situation or defeat the combat without making any rolls. You suffer 2 points of Intelligence burn afterward.
That, or a version with less hyperbole.
I suggest you NOT play games with your DM and just go to the Binder. Things will work out much better if you keep things above the board. You're attempting to sneak an exploit past him, and that's not a good sign.
Note that it's the general opinion of bmost people that even Hellfire warlock blast damage is NOT very good. A good archer, and certainly a blasting mage, can outperform him with ease, and it only gets better as they level.
I'm a little confused here. Doesn't "exploit" imply trying to gain some sort of unfair, game-breaking advantage? Even with the most favorable combination of mechanics and interpretation of rules, a Hellfire Warlock that manages to negate his Constitution damage still isn't as outright powerful as the typical normal spellcaster, so why bother to block it? As a DM, I'd be more concerned about trying to balance out classes and combinations that are actually more unbalanced, even if they pose far less rules questions.
The Binder solution clearly works, no questions, and there's enough of a cost subsumed that it's judged more then worth picking up +4d6 damage.
If not being overpowered is a reason to just give the stuff away, fighters would have 40 feats and be on a par with Warblades, not just 11.
==Aelryinth
EDIT: Not to mention your argument is terrible because shaping the Strongheart vest costs a feat or level, so...it has a very real, very tangible cost anyways.
My point was that ability burn wasn't used anywhere outside the XPH, when it really could have been used in those places to make ability scores a properly manageable resource. It wasn't perfect by a longshot - the way I would have used it is to say that it can't be magically or psionically healed, but it heals faster than ability damage (not quite sure on a timeframe; a point every hour would be a starting point, but it could be significantly faster (i.e. all points after 10 minutes in an extreme case) if that was problematic). In ideal situations, someone using ability burn to fuel something would get a good desperation move - but not to the point where it rewrites the game. They're substantially healed (or even fully healed) by the time the next encounter rolls around.
By way of analogy, let's look at Magic: The Gathering. Look at "damage" as opposed to "life loss". The former can be prevented, redirected, reduced, and so forth; this is to be expected in any tactical game. However, the ability to do so means that dealing damage to yourself is inappropriate for a cost. ("I cast a spell that reduces the next damage I take to 0, then I cast a spell that deals X damage to me to add X mana to my mana pool. I now have two thousand mana with which to crush you.") Wizards learned this lesson long ago, and worked in life loss rules instead - basically, if you spend life as a payment for a cost, you can't prevent or redirect it - it isn't "damage". D&D's tried to do similar things in spltabooks, but they never really took off - vile damage, the cursed blade spell, and ability burn all come to mind.
In the specific case of Hellfire Warlock, everyone's right that the damage simply isn't high enough to warrant huge burn - but it advances fast enough in terms of level such that a single binder level doesn't break too much of the stride. (For that matter, neither does a feat - Hellfire Warlock doesn't have any feat prereqs.) Other possible costs that might matter include a small reduction in current and maximum HP for the day - not much, but the mere fact that it exists and literally can't be healed or cheated around would make it a meaningful cost. (My ideal situation here would be to make this augmentable - there's a base cost, then you can spend more to make the blast even stronger. Cap the amount you spend based on your warlock caster level, and scale the results per unit spent by hellfire warlock level, and you're golden.)
Armisael, you've got a point, but it is augmentable. We've all ignored the obvious "cheat" - bloodline levels.
Or Uncanny Trickster. Or Legacy Champion. (The two combine surprisingly well on the skill front as well as on the class feature front: the latter inherits all class skills from your former classes, and the former has all skills as class skills.) Or used for multiple hits with Eldritch Glaive (though there's frequently some tradeoff there between base attack and base blast damage).
This is pretty well-known in the higher-grade optimization forums, but here's a sample build if you're unfamiliar with it
.
Illumian
8/15/13/14/10/12 [Advance as you see fit. Dex is for offense, Con is for defense. Charisma is tertiary at best.]
Binder Soul Binding, Vaul Martial Study (Douse the Flames)
Warlock Krau, Vaulkrau Beguiling Influence
Warlock Detect Magic Weapon Finesse Eldritch Glaive
Warlock DR 1/cold iron
Warlock Deceive Item Entropic Warding
Warlock [Never Outnumbered] Combat Reflexes
Warlock [Collector of Stories] Brimstone Blast
Uncanny Trickster Bonus Trick, Favored Trick
Legacy Champion Reduced Lesser, Bond of Lore Enhanced Power Sigils
Hellfire Warlock Hellfire Blast
Hellfire Warlock Hellfire Infusion, Resist Fire 10 Eldritch Chain
Hellfire Warlock Hellfire Shield Imperious Command
Legacy Champion Replace Least Fell Flight
Legacy Champion Extra Least Vitriolic Blast
Legacy Champion Bonus Legacy Feat Martial Study (Defensive Rebuke), [Open legacy feat]
Legacy Champion Replace Lesser Eldritch Cone
Legacy Champion Extra Lesser
Uncanny Trickster Bonus Trick, Favored Trick Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) [Open greater invocation]
Uncanny Trickster Bonus Trick, Favored Trick, Uncanny Luck [Open dark invocation]
Warlock
Suggested equipment: The ususal blast boosters (Greater Chasuble of Fell Power, Warlock's Scepter, etc.), Horizon Goggles, Fearsome armor, and any staves you want (you've doubtlessly maxed out UMD and have Hellfire Infusion).
This is a pretty straightforward example of the trick applied to a warlock who is not otherwise super-specialized. (There's a few sub-par choices, I didn't bother looking up the obvious Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat's prereqs, and I'm kind of disappointed at how many feats it takes to make a proficient glaivelock when that's not your speciality, but...) Due to the Naberius pact that's more or less omnipresent, and the more-or-less free first-level feat, I went with a way to get Diplomacy up there early on. In combat, it can focus on mid-range multitarget chains against most targets, aerial cones (if you're in the air and aim down, cones become a lot deadlier) against mooks, and up-close-and-personal when necessary using Thicket+Combat Reflexes+Eldritch Glaive. If you're up close and personal, you can combine Never Outnumbered, Imperious Command, and Fearsome armor to get a pretty effective action denial for a move action as well; this fits thematically with Naberius' commanding voice and your other interaction skills. Bust out a staff to round out your options, particularly through transmutation and divination effects.
Final base attack: 15. Final CL: 20. Final blast damage: 8d6+20d6 hellfire. (Note that with that BAB, you're getting three hits with Glaive by default (plus more via AoOs), four targets on Chain, and a pretty big area (admittedly Reflex Half) with Cone; the lingering damage from Vitriolic is extra and, notably, stacks across multiple hits.)
I don't touch on bloodlines here, but that can squeeze in more damage and a few extra abilities this way and fit the fluff perfectly while you're at it. I also leave the specific legacy item you use out of the picture; you only actually need to awaken the least legacy of the item for the build to work, so find an item that doesn't carry too much of a penalty before level 11 (the point where you need Lesser Legacy for it to continue to grow).
Not all that powerful if you're measuring by druid standards or anything, but if you're not playing a tier one or tier two game, it's solid.
(As a minor aside, that rough structure (Base class 7 / Uncanny Trickster 1 / Legacy Champion 1 / [Specialist PrC 3] / finish off LC/UT, with optional bloodline) can be applied to a number of other interesting PrCs that use their class level in a formula to produce interesting side effects. Hellfire Warlock is just the most well-known example, but another noteworthy one is Cannith Wand Adept (from Sharn: City of Towers). It's a 3-level PrC based on wand use (naturally). It's supposed ZOMG ability was dual-wielding wands, but that had its fire stolen by a feat that came out in a different, more mainstream book at around the same time (the Cannith version is less efficient, but doesn't require Two-Weapon Fighting to take.). However, the wand adept, most notably, adds its class level to the DC from any wand spell. Using this "overdrive" class structure, you can get wands with +12 to the DC before using Metamagic Spell Trigger on Heighten.)
Illumian
8/15/13/14/10/12 [Advance as you see fit. Dex is for offense, Con is for defense. Charisma is tertiary at best.]
Binder Soul Binding, Vaul Martial Study (Douse the Flames)
Warlock Krau, Vaulkrau Beguiling Influence
Warlock Detect Magic Weapon Finesse Eldritch Glaive
Warlock DR 1/cold iron
Warlock Deceive Item Entropic Warding
Warlock [Never Outnumbered] Combat Reflexes
Warlock [Collector of Stories] Brimstone Blast
Uncanny Trickster Bonus Trick, Favored Trick
Legacy Champion Reduced Lesser, Bond of Lore Enhanced Power Sigils
Hellfire Warlock Hellfire Blast
Hellfire Warlock Hellfire Infusion, Resist Fire 10 Eldritch Chain
Hellfire Warlock Hellfire Shield Imperious Command
Legacy Champion Replace Least Fell Flight
Legacy Champion Extra Least Vitriolic Blast
Legacy Champion Bonus Legacy Feat Martial Study (Defensive Rebuke), [Open legacy feat]
Legacy Champion Replace Lesser Eldritch Cone
Legacy Champion Extra Lesser
Uncanny Trickster Bonus Trick, Favored Trick Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) [Open greater invocation]
Uncanny Trickster Bonus Trick, Favored Trick, Uncanny Luck [Open dark invocation]
Warlock
Suggested equipment: The ususal blast boosters (Greater Chasuble of Fell Power, Warlock's Scepter, etc.), Horizon Goggles, Fearsome armor, and any staves you want (you've doubtlessly maxed out UMD and have Hellfire Infusion).
This is a pretty straightforward example of the trick applied to a warlock who is not otherwise super-specialized. (There's a few sub-par choices, I didn't bother looking up the obvious Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat's prereqs, and I'm kind of disappointed at how many feats it takes to make a proficient glaivelock when that's not your speciality, but...) Due to the Naberius pact that's more or less omnipresent, and the more-or-less free first-level feat, I went with a way to get Diplomacy up there early on. In combat, it can focus on mid-range multitarget chains against most targets, aerial cones (if you're in the air and aim down, cones become a lot deadlier) against mooks, and up-close-and-personal when necessary using Thicket+Combat Reflexes+Eldritch Glaive. If you're up close and personal, you can combine Never Outnumbered, Imperious Command, and Fearsome armor to get a pretty effective action denial for a move action as well; this fits thematically with Naberius' commanding voice and your other interaction skills. Bust out a staff to round out your options, particularly through transmutation and divination effects.
Final base attack: 15. Final CL: 20. Final blast damage: 8d6+20d6 hellfire. (Note that with that BAB, you're getting three hits with Glaive by default (plus more via AoOs), four targets on Chain, and a pretty big area (admittedly Reflex Half) with Cone; the lingering damage from Vitriolic is extra and, notably, stacks across multiple hits.)
I don't touch on bloodlines here, but that can squeeze in more damage and a few extra abilities this way and fit the fluff perfectly while you're at it. I also leave the specific legacy item you use out of the picture; you only actually need to awaken the least legacy of the item for the build to work, so find an item that doesn't carry too much of a penalty before level 11 (the point where you need Lesser Legacy for it to continue to grow).
Not all that powerful if you're measuring by druid standards or anything, but if you're not playing a tier one or tier two game, it's solid.
(As a minor aside, that rough structure (Base class 7 / Uncanny Trickster 1 / Legacy Champion 1 / [Specialist PrC 3] / finish off LC/UT, with optional bloodline) can be applied to a number of other interesting PrCs that use their class level in a formula to produce interesting side effects. Hellfire Warlock is just the most well-known example, but another noteworthy one is Cannith Wand Adept (from Sharn: City of Towers). It's a 3-level PrC based on wand use (naturally). It's supposed ZOMG ability was dual-wielding wands, but that had its fire stolen by a feat that came out in a different, more mainstream book at around the same time (the Cannith version is less efficient, but doesn't require Two-Weapon Fighting to take.). However, the wand adept, most notably, adds its class level to the DC from any wand spell. Using this "overdrive" class structure, you can get wands with +12 to the DC before using Metamagic Spell Trigger on Heighten.)
This is pretty well-known in the higher-grade optimization forums, but here's a sample build if you're unfamiliar with it.
I have actually been wondering why it is possible to level up the Hellfire Warlock prestige class with uncanny trickster. I get that with uncanny trickster you can level up any class you have previously leveled, but since there are no more levels to pick from (the Hellfire Warlock table only goes to 3rd level) how is this done? Where are the rules written allowing this?
I'm confused because if it is possible to progress further in the Hellfire Warlock prestige class by doing this trick, why isn't it then possible to just level it normally into the 4th, 5ft, 6th (and so on) level?
I hope you can answer this aswell, Tempest. The complex rules of D&D sure is confusing for the new player :D.
I'm confused because if it is possible to progress further in the Hellfire Warlock prestige class by doing this trick, why isn't it then possible to just level it normally into the 4th, 5ft, 6th (and so on) level?
I hope you can answer this aswell, Tempest. The complex rules of D&D sure is confusing for the new player :D.
You're not actually gaining levels in the classes, in this case, because those levels don't exist. What you're doing is increasing level-based abilities. Since HW does an extra 2d6 per Hellfire Warlock level, you're adding the Bloodline or Uncanny Trickster levels to Hellfire Warlock.
You're not actually gaining levels in the classes, in this case, because those levels don't exist. What you're doing is increasing level-based abilities. Since HW does an extra 2d6 per Hellfire Warlock level, you're adding the Bloodline or Uncanny Trickster levels to Hellfire Warlock.
Ah I see, but can't one argue that there are no level-based abilities after the 3rd level because the the table doesn't go any further? Or that you won't get any extra damage because your Hellfire Warlock class level is still the same?
Ah I see, but can't one argue that there are no level-based abilities after the 3rd level because the the table doesn't go any further? Or that you won't get any extra damage because your Hellfire Warlock class level is still the same?
No, because of the way the abilities are worded. Anything that gives "X per class level" can be affected.
Ah I see, but can't one argue that there are no level-based abilities after the 3rd level because the the table doesn't go any further? Or that you won't get any extra damage because your Hellfire Warlock class level is still the same?
No, because of the way the abilities are worded. Anything that gives "X per class level" can be affected.
Alright. Thanks alot for the clarification.