Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Diffan Apr 14, 2010 18:33:22	Firstly, we're using Pathfinder rules but adapting 3.5 material as we see fit. That being said, I set off with the attempt to be a DPR style character. Naturally I went with the rogue for all the sneak-attack goodness. But now I'm thinking that I'm a little bit too overpowered for the campaign. So far, my character is a rogue 4/ swashbuckler 3. I went with the Two-Weapon Fighting tree and my total build is going to be rogue 6/ swashbuckler 3/ swordsage 1/ shadow dancer 10.  Now at 7th level and the use of the Daring Outlaw feat, I deal +4d6 sneak attack damage per attack in addition to the 1d6 shortsword. Add in the +1 enhancement bonus and the +2 bonus from my Int-modifier from Insightful Strike as well. So when flanking the enemy and hitting with every attack (4 attacks w/ a full-round action) I deal 20d6 + 12 damage per turn!! I know that's not the most optimial I could be I assume, but I think it's pretty damn impressive espically at 7th level. Not to mention the minor magic rogue talent I took which gave me the no light spell 3/day.  But I think my character is starting to out perform other characters and the DM might be getting upset. Do you fine people of the Char-Ops boards think this is too much for this level or perfectly fine for a DPR style character?  If I'm adding in the Tome of Battle and the Swordsage's Assassin's Stance (which adds another +2d6 to sneak attack) with the Shadow Blade feat AND maneuvers.....well I just think that my character would meet a very bad end much to the DM's none-too-subtle happiness, lol.  So I guess I'm looking for some advice or reassurance that the build is just fine and other possible ideas as to character creation. Advice and thoughts are greatly appreciated.
#2 NiteCyper Apr 14, 2010 18:52:35	1. No, your build isn't overpowered. 2. Solution: sand-bag, or re-evaluate tactics with the GM.
#3 Diffan Apr 14, 2010 19:54:54	1. No, your build isn't overpowered. 2. Solution: sand-bag, or re-evaluate tactics with the GM. Thanks NiteCyper, always love a good Order of the Stick comic, lol. As for sand-bagging, while I hate doing that I just don't see how I can when it's up to the d20 roll that decides if I hit with the attack or not. I could put myself into positions that doesn't always provide a sneak attack, but then that sorta defeats the purpose of being a DPR character, lol. When you mean re-evaluate tactics, do you mean re-work how SA works? He was considering that the SA damage oly applies once to each weapon per turn. Meaning no matter how many attacks I get, SA is only applied twice (1 per weapon) and thus only +8d6 max so far. He hasn't implemented the rule, just thinking about it.   I don't know how much of a hinderance this could be, but it doesn't sound good if you ask me. Thoughts?
#4 NiteCyper Apr 14, 2010 20:02:33	By re-evaluating tactics, I mean they should stop having Dex-2, blind-folded, spell-resistant close-quarters-physical-combatants running themselves into your two blades and form encounters that challenge you and let your team-mates shine. Another option is to help your team-mates optimize.
#5 Diffan Apr 14, 2010 20:46:33	By re-evaluating tactics, I mean they should stop having Dex-2, blind-folded, spell-resistant close-quarters-physical-combatants running themselves into your two blades and form encounters that challenge you and let your team-mates shine. Ah, now I see. Yea, I do try to put my teammates into positions that really help them and I attempt to always be in a flanking position with my fighter buddy. I think what makes me nervous is that I'll really excell in DPR to the point that the encounters with monsters won't be a challenge for the rest of my team members.   Another option is to help your team-mates optimize. Yes, I've been doing that. Our fighter (human fighter 6/ master of chains 1) does a splendid job of tripping people all over the place and using his Spiked Chain to wonderful effects. The Stand Still feat locks enemies in place and he can make up to 4 AoOs per turn. The cleric (human cleric 7 of Sarenrae) has some pretty good options because the DM allowed her to take deitiy-specific feats and apply them to the Pathfinder campaign like the Initiate of Lathander feat. Her channel positive energy only heals her companions and she can quicken spells using her attempts. And the sorcerer (human celestial-bloodline sorcerer 7) is a great buffer. He took the Arcane Disciple feat and chose Sarenrae as his deity. This gave him access to the Healing domain. He then too Spontaneous Healer feat and now he can convert as many of his sorcerer spells into healing spells as he sees fit. In addition to extra healing, he has some offensive firepower and buff spells like Haste, protection from evil, bear's endurance, enlarge person (to give our fighter a 20' reach), and snake's swiftness.
#6 borg285 Apr 14, 2010 23:45:05	sounds like your team is quite optimized.  Perhaps see if some of the casters are willing to cast snake's swiftness more often to take advantage of your powerful hits. Instead of going swordmage go warblade.  You don't need more SA but more options and versatility.  Punishing stance will give you a +1d6 to all your attacks but opens the door for the DM to reveal to you your mortality (-2 AC).  If you need access to maneuvers consider getting a magic item from TOB using either warblade(preferred) or swordmage(better access and maneuver fulfillment) to take maneuvers that you can use in battle.  This will reduce your attacks to 1 (DM is now happy) and you get to do some fun stuff(maneuvers).
#7 borg285 Apr 15, 2010 0:12:04	Remember that while you may choose any maneuvers for which you meet the initiator level, the stance must be a level 1 stance for assassin's stance.  This would either require you to take swordmage 2 or martial study. Remember that you can get maneuvers through the magic items found on TOB 150.  Many times you just need them as prerequisites.  You'll have to OK it with your DM that once you take a martial adept class and learn maneuvers that required you to have on the shadow hands, for example, that you can then remove the item and relearn it as a maneuver available to your martial adept class and thus renewable through it(warblade anyone?)  the martial discipline weapons are also a great way to increase your to-hit.  Since you'll always be in a stance you'll always have the increased attack(+2), and only attack.  Knowing you prefer full attacks versus maneuvers a shadowhand stone dragon shortsword is not up your alley. Another magic weapon I've found above and beyond, but strangely enough not mentioned, is the earthbound enhancement.  A mere +1 enhancement but as long as both you and your opponent are touching the ground this weapon tacks on an additional +2 to attack and damage.
#8 steelblue Apr 15, 2010 0:15:35	You're not overpowered. Not even close. Frankly, your power will start fading within 3 levels. (Shadowdancer 10? Yikes.) But that's not really the point. The problem here is your mindset. The reason you're so successful at killing things is because your entire team is aimed at letting you kill things. A lockdown fighter, a DPR, and two buffer/healers? This team was designed with a simple strategy for combat: control the enemy, then let the rogue kill it. Come on, man, you're doing exactly what you should be doing. Your team wouldn't have chosen the roles they did if they weren't comfortable watching you kill things and knowing that it was their contributions that made it so easy. The problem isn't with your power. The problem here (as NiteCyper so gently pointed out) is your assumption that killing things is the only kind of power in the game. Your team is making this happen for you. You wouldn't feel so overpowered if you'd recognize that fact.
#9 Diffan Apr 15, 2010 22:09:57	Remember that while you may choose any maneuvers for which you meet the initiator level, the stance must be a level 1 stance for assassin's stance.  This would either require you to take swordmage 2 or martial study. Wait, what? Where in the ToB does it say that because I was sure that if your IL was of the correct level (IL 5th for example and thus 3rd level stances) I could take them if i meed the prerequisite number of maneuvers. Definitly need some clairification here. Remember that you can get maneuvers through the magic items found on TOB 150.  Many times you just need them as prerequisites.  You'll have to OK it with your DM that once you take a martial adept class and learn maneuvers that required you to have on the shadow hands, for example, that you can then remove the item and relearn it as a maneuver available to your martial adept class and thus renewable through it(warblade anyone?) Not a bad idea but I'll have to get my DM to approve that and he'll probably want to debate the idea in depth. the martial discipline weapons are also a great way to increase your to-hit.  Since you'll always be in a stance you'll always have the increased attack(+2), and only attack.  Knowing you prefer full attacks versus maneuvers a shadowhand stone dragon shortsword is not up your alley. Another magic weapon I've found above and beyond, but strangely enough not mentioned, is the earthbound enhancement.  A mere +1 enhancement but as long as both you and your opponent are touching the ground this weapon tacks on an additional +2 to attack and damage. I was looking at those earlier today and I didn't understand how it gives the bonuses and what-not nor did I quite see how a weapon is infused with a specific discipline? I mean, is a shortsword with ties to the shadow hand and tigre claw still only a +1 enhancement bonus? You're not overpowered. Not even close. Frankly, your power will start fading within 3 levels. (Shadowdancer 10? Yikes.) But that's not really the point. The problem here is your mindset. Well that's reassuring, lol. I think the pathfinder version if the Shadowdancer is a bit better but honestly, I really didn't want to go through 2 or 3 prestige classes and min/max too bad. Also, my alignment is Neutral so PrCs like the Assassin or Avenger were out of the question. And I really didn't see a good PrC that fit my stile of fighting and still keep the Rogue-ish roleplaying aspect. Ideas on a few? The reason you're so successful at killing things is because your entire team is aimed at letting you kill things. A lockdown fighter, a DPR, and two buffer/healers? This team was designed with a simple strategy for combat: control the enemy, then let the rogue kill it. Come on, man, you're doing exactly what you should be doing. Your team wouldn't have chosen the roles they did if they weren't comfortable watching you kill things and knowing that it was their contributions that made it so easy. The problem isn't with your power. The problem here (as NiteCyper so gently pointed out) is your assumption that killing things is the only kind of power in the game. Your team is making this happen for you. You wouldn't feel so overpowered if you'd recognize that fact. This is true. My group is pretty experienced as long time gamers and I think we do a fairly decent job at combat and knowing each other's capabilities. And even our newest face, the spiked chain fighter, is getting the idea that tripping people all the time and using his AoOs to deal the damage is the way to go. I'm trying to get him to take the Thicket of Blades stance so he'll be an even greater lockdown fighter. I just hope my DM realizes that even though I deal the biggest death blow, it wouldn't happen if it weren't for the haste and bless spells and for the flanking position my allies provide me.
#10 akakagewarrior Apr 16, 2010 2:59:28	It's your DM's problem, really. In 3e5 there are lots of options and enemies which won't allow you to sneak attack, you will feel useless then!
#11 tr0llman Apr 16, 2010 4:35:28	I was looking at those earlier today and I didn't understand how it gives the bonuses and what-not nor did I quite see how a weapon is infused with a specific discipline? I mean, is a shortsword with ties to the shadow hand and tigre claw still only a +1 enhancement bonus? Discipline Weapon is a +1 equivalent special ability like, say, keen. Thus, a Discipline (Shadow Hand), Discipline (Tiger Claw) +1 Shortsword is equivalent to a +3 Shortsword. I assume you're with me this far. The Discipline property gives a (non-typed IIRC) +3 to hit when you use a stance or maneuver from that discipline. Thus, the easy optimization is a dual Discipline weapon, and using a stance from one discipline while focussing on strikes from another, for a +6 to hit bonus.
#12 phaxi Apr 16, 2010 6:10:32	Have your DM ever heard about the undead?
#13 Senevri Apr 16, 2010 7:37:10	Pathfinder undead take sneak attack damage, as a rule. But, yea. A moderately optimal melee character deals about level x 10 damage per round. This is what should be EXPECTED by the DM. Any less than level x 5, and you'd better bring something besides damage to the table.
#14 Diffan Apr 16, 2010 8:03:10	Discipline Weapon is a +1 equivalent special ability like, say, keen. Thus, a Discipline (Shadow Hand), Discipline (Tiger Claw) +1 Shortsword is equivalent to a +3 Shortsword. I assume you're with me this far. The Discipline property gives a (non-typed IIRC) +3 to hit when you use a stance or maneuver from that discipline. Thus, the easy optimization is a dual Discipline weapon, and using a stance from one discipline while focussing on strikes from another, for a +6 to hit bonus. Ah, now I see. So each discipline you add to a weapon is like adding an additional +1 enhancement cost to the weapon. I would probably benefit from a shadow hand/tiger claw weapon since I'll most likely be in a Shadow Hand stance and using tiger claw maneuvers like Wolf Fang Strike and Soaring Raptor Strike. Have your DM ever heard about the undead? Pathfinder undead take sneak attack damage, as a rule. But, yea. A moderately optimal melee character deals about level x 10 damage per round. This is what should be EXPECTED by the DM. Any less than level x 5, and you'd better bring something besides damage to the table. That's one of the beautiful changes they made for Pathfinder, undead and constructs aren't immune to precision-based damage unless stated in their write-up. And if I can get a weapon with the discipline property I should be set on hitting creatures way more often to get that level x 10 DPR. On a side note, I took the Disruptive Attack ACF from the player's handbook 2 and I was curious if when I make 4 attacks on a full-round action and I declare the first attack is a disruptive attack (giving up the +4d6 extra damage to impose a -5 penalty to AC) and it hits, do the other 3 attacks I make have to beat the creature's same AC or the AC -5?
#15 gaufgauf Apr 16, 2010 8:43:31	Wait, what? Where in the ToB does it say that because I was sure that if your IL was of the correct level (IL 5th for example and thus 3rd level stances) I could take them if i meed the prerequisite number of maneuvers. Definitly need some clairification here. ToB, page 15-16 (Maneuvers known and Stances Known).  This is from the Swordsage class, but the exact same text is found for the Crusader and Warblade. Maneuvers text (Note no specifications on level):    You begin your career with the knowledge of 6 martial maneuvers. Stances Text:    You begin play with one 1st level stance from any discipline open to you. I think it is repeated somewhere else in the book, but a brief check could not locate it.
#16 borg285 Apr 21, 2010 8:34:48	Concerning the cost and construction of a discipline weapon I've also been confused on this topic.  Here's a discussion I had with it spelled out quite clearly.    Does anybody have a link to a discussion to this spread of level*10 DPR is the mostly optimal melee striker?  I've run some math and found the required DPR to kill a monster much less than that.
#17 gorfnad_the_shiznit Apr 22, 2010 15:30:42	Needs Craven
#18 waazraath Apr 22, 2010 15:32:12	Lol, he was afraid he's OVERpowered, gorfnad ;)
#19 Diffan May 07, 2010 19:45:10	ToB, page 15-16 (Maneuvers known and Stances Known).  This is from the Swordsage class, but the exact same text is found for the Crusader and Warblade. Maneuvers text (Note no specifications on level):    You begin your career with the knowledge of 6 martial maneuvers. Stances Text:    You begin play with one 1st level stance from any discipline open to you. I think it is repeated somewhere else in the book, but a brief check could not locate it. Ah, now I see where you got it from. I need to be more thorough in my readings lol. Yea, looks like it's either Island of Blades or the one that negates difficult terrain. Concerning the cost and construction of a discipline weapon I've also been confused on this topic.  Here's a discussion I had with it spelled out quite clearly.    Does anybody have a link to a discussion to this spread of level*10 DPR is the mostly optimal melee striker?  I've run some math and found the required DPR to kill a monster much less than that. Thanks for the input. Yea, I understand now how it work and thanks for the link. As for the level x 10 for DPR and it seems pretty accurate. In our last encouter, I hit with 3 of 4 attacks and did something like 74 damage. I'm just worried where I start to go downhill. Needs Craven I saw craven (even own the book!) and while it's a definit must for rogues, I'm worried about the role-play differences as I've taken levels of the Pathfinder swashbuckler and received bonuses to Will saves against fear via the Bravery special ability. And I've just found the feat Superior Finesse which swapps my Str for Dex mod for damgae. I like Shadow Blade better, I doubt I'll be adding anything to my Strength anytime soon. Lol, he was afraid he's OVERpowered, gorfnad ;) Well, I have a reputation for doing optimized things in a group that doesn't really optimize so I usually stand out like a power-gamer. And I sorta wanted to get away from that look, but even with sub-optimal choices I still out shine our Fighter character and the newly added Warmage in DPR. So now I'm just like "screw it" and going for high DPR because it's what I'm geared to, lol. Thanks for the suggestions and ideas. Any ideas on Prestige Classes? As far as I was concerned, I thought Shadowdancer 4/Shadowlord 6 (Unapproachable East) was pretty cool (though not optimal) and figured that would work well with a TWF/Stealthy rogue.