So far I haven't really thought of any.
Bard/Assassin...you could be like those Ninja from Naruto lol.
Barb/Bard...heck yea! Trade in some raw power for more will and now ya cast magic and can buff yourself!
Plus it opens a lot of cool ability combos for other stuff!
Is there any class, Race or Build where at any point in character creation. Taking a level of bard anywhere between levels 1-20 is a bad idea?
So far I haven't really thought of any.
Yes. Many in fact.
What makes you think a level in Bard is so great that ANYONE would want to take it?
Although people may not play the RAW I can think one one big reason why taking a single level of Bard may be a HORRIBLE idea: XP PENALTIES. How's that? Check out the section of your PHB where it talks about multiclassing; that level in Bard could easily be something that gives you "unbalanced" base classes which means a massive blow to XP.
Now I will give you that Bard can be used for a lot of things but that doesn't mean those are all good and that still leaves plenty of things where it is actually a BAD idea.
But, besides that, this is correct. CC is really the only flat-out good dip.
Wizard is a pretty good one-level dip in any non-full casting build that hasn't dumped Int. Abrupt Jaunt, a fighter feat and access to wizard spell trigger items is pretty handy.
But, besides that, this is correct. CC is really the only flat-out good dip.
Wizard is a pretty good one-level dip in any non-full casting build that hasn't dumped Int. Abrupt Jaunt, a fighter feat and access to wizard spell trigger items is pretty handy.
If you want to say Wizard is a "good one-level dip" then I might say Sorcerer is an even better choice. It gives you access to all the same same spell trigger items plus you don't need to carry around your spellbook and may even have more useable spells. Of course Sorcerer means not completely dumping CHA which is a lot easier to do than dumping INT.
If you want to say Wizard is a "good one-level dip" then I might say Sorcerer is an even better choice. It gives you access to all the same same spell trigger items plus you don't need to carry around your spellbook and may even have more useable spells. Of course Sorcerer means not completely dumping CHA which is a lot easier to do than dumping INT.
Eh, I'm not sure I agree. Access to the wizard spell list for spell trigger items alone is worth a feat (Planar Touchstone, to be exact). Adding in a level of sorcerer to a non-casting build doesn't necessarily seem worth it. But adding in a level of wizard nets you spell trigger items, a bonus feat (which can be any fighter feat if you take the martial wizard ACF), AND the ability to teleport as an immediate action several times a day (Immediate Magic ACF). Sure, if you actually want to prepare those first level spells you get, a sorcerer has a slightly easier time than a wizard - but if you're dipping this on a non-caster, I figure that's not really what you're all about.
You get spell triggering, access to turning (for powering an array of divine feats), and your choice of benefits from an extensive range of domains. The options available for divine feats or domain benefits can be tailored to almost any character, adding dramatically to its usefulness.
Many other builds could probably benefit from Bard, but also stand to lose something.
I'd say the main reason you'd dip Bard would be Inspire Courage; with one level and Extra Music you can have 5/day music, which could easily be a +3 IC (Badge of Valour + Inspirational Boost), and with three levels you can get Song of the Heart instead of Extra Music to make it 3/day, +4 IC. Plus the Vest of Legends when you can afford it. Giving up a single point of BAB for +3-5 to both AB and damage may well be worth it, especially when it boosts your team too, and the Bard does give other benefits.
Otherwise... lots of skills (good to take at L1) and access to some spell-trigger items and the like... but not a great deal else. For a "skillmonkey" sort of character, it could be useful, but otherwise I'd say no.
While Bard/Barbarian doesn't work too well, you may consider two levels of bard with the rest in Crusader or Warblade. The feat Song of White Raven will make both class levels stack for determining how strong Inspire Courage is. Throw in other feats like Extra Music (for extra uses per day) and Words of Creation (to double the bonus on Inspire Courage) and you'll effectively be a full ToB character that provides a +8 (or higher) morale bonus to attack and damage for the whole party.
For many people, however (and certainly Bardic Barbarians), the Warrior Skald is a more manly dip, and with no loss of BAB.
If you had two characters, one who was bard 2/crusader 18 and another who was bard 2/barbarian 18, the former would be able to get +8 (or higher) morale bonuses to attack and damage due to "Song of White Raven"; the former would cap at around +2 due to lack of any synergy feat. (You might be able to increase the bonus further if you threw away some extra feats and trained UMD for a certain bard spell, but you get the idea - it's less than optimal.)If you made a multi-class bard/rogue, you'd be able to sing just fine while sneak attacking - but that doesn't mean it's beneficial to water-down your rogue levels just to dip bard. Doubly so if the bonuses are the piddly kind.
Should you always be looking at dipping Bard? No, I don't think so. It doesn't offer that much, to be honest. Can it be useful? Sure. Just not always (and consider the Warrior Skald!).
I still don't think the lost levels (and, perhaps more importantly) the lost feats are worth the dip. (Not just Song of the Heart, but also Extra Music, unless you've got a magic item that increases bardic music uses per day.) It still stands that a bard/crusader or bard/warblade gets that +3 (over 20 levels) on top of everything else that the bard/barbarian can do - which then gets doubled after Words of Creation. (Albeit, the bard/barbarian can also use Words of Creation, but much less effectively.) I won't deny the bard/barbarian combo still yields a bonus; I just don't think it's a worthwhile investment given the alternatives. (I guess that's more a matter of personal preference, though.)
I'm looking over Warrior Skald and, while it's a decent PrC, none of its class features are really jumping out at me. The fear effects looks fun, but at the cost of 3 bardic music uses, that gets expensive fast. The capstone (group barbarian rage) doesn't seem overly impressive to me since you can accomplish the same thing with a berserking sword or a diplomacy check (which a high-level diplomancer should hopefully be able to pull off by the time capstone abilities come into play). Is there a specific ability/combo that should be highlighted here, or are you just saying it's a strong PrC overall?
(As an aside, I'm more partial to War Chanter simply for Inspire Awe and Inspire Legion, though I suppose that War Chanter's lower level abilities are less useful than the ones provided by Warrior Skald.)
The Warrior Skald, I'm saying, is probably better as a dip than Bard. You don't lose BAB, and you get all the songs as soon as they're available, meaning that you can get a lot of kick from a single level (though you'd want both Song of the Heart and Extra Music, which would be a lot, especially when you need PA and Cleave to enter). So, if you were thinking of a Bard dip for a full-BAB char, think also of Warrior Skald (you do need Perform from somewhere, though). Also it's more awesome.
Bear in mind Spellsinger (from the same book) also gives the Bardic Music class ability, and isn't nearly so specific in what it gives - ergo, one can infer the text in Warrior Skald isn't just some typo. I daresay The_Fred is right: this is an excellent dip class!
