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is the master of nine worth it?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
frost.fire
Jul 27, 2013 10:39:23 My question is simple, weighing in the heavy feat cost, do you think master of 9 is a solid presteige class? I'm working on a build that could potentially use it but I'm curious what you guys think of it. If I have read correctly it is really only worth it to use at the last 5 levels of a build right?
#2
Tempest_Stormwind
Jul 27, 2013 10:57:50
My question is simple, weighing in the heavy feat cost, do you think master of 9 is a solid presteige class? I'm working on a build that could potentially use it but I'm curious what you guys think of it. If I have read correctly it is really only worth it to use at the last 5 levels of a build right?

Depends on what you're trying to do. It's expensive, certainly, but the massive number of known maneuvers plus a ready maneuver at every level is certainly useful, and in some builds a few of the features (typically Dual Stance and Counter Stance) can be keystones. You're right that it's usually used to end a build, but those needn't be levels 15-20 (you could be building lower level than that).

We used it in the Evasion Tank (Edit: Counter Stance is quite good here), and it's one of the classics for an Idiot Crusader (though hardly the only way!). Getting in can be made simpler with Unarmed Swordsage, and unless you're using Evasive Target (which needs a Dodge target selected to work), you should grab Expeditious Dodge (or, less popularly, Desert Wind Dodge, which will trigger in tighter quarters) in place of the original "Dodge".
#3
piggyknowles
Jul 27, 2013 11:49:30 Here is a fun build by Darrin over on the GitP boards that uses Mo9 to pick up every 9th-level maneuver by level 20:

"If we use the Unarmed Swordsage variant to get Improved Unarmed Strike, we can get into Master of Nine before we take our Warblade and Crusader levels. This gives us two more 4th level maneuvers, and increases our IL so we can take both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics with our Warblade and Crusader levels.

1) Swordsage 1. IL = 1.0. Feat: Improved Initiative. Bonus: Blindfight. Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike.
2) Swordsage 2. IL = 2.0.
3) Swordsage 3. IL = 3.0. Feat: Adaptive Style.
4) Swordsage 4. IL = 4.0.
5) Swordsage 5. IL = 5.0. (Note: pay ritual cost for Least Legacy, if available)
6) Swordsage 6. IL = 6.0. Feat: Dodge/Desert Wind Dodge/Expeditious Dodge.
7) Swordsage 7. IL = 7.0.
8) Master of Nine 1. IL = 8.0.
9) Warblade 1. IL = 5.5. Feat: {Open}.
10) Crusader 1. IL = 6.0.
11) Legacy Champion 1. IL = 9.5.
12) Legacy Champion 2. IL = 11.0. Feat: {Open}.
13) Legacy Champion 3. IL = 12.5.
14) Legacy Champion 4. IL = 14.0.
15) Legacy Champion 5. IL = 15.5. Feat: {Open}.
16) Legacy Champion 6. IL = 17.0.
17) Master of Nine 2. IL = 18.0.
18) Master of Nine 3. IL = 19.0. Feat: Martial Study
19) Master of Nine 4. IL = 20.0.
20) Master of Nine 5. IL = 21.0.

Feats:
9) Snap Kick or Staggering Strike
12) Mage Slayer or Improved Critical
15) Pierce Magical Concealment or Undo Resistance

Maneuver Progression:
Swordsage 1: Burning Blade, Flame's Blessing (stance), Wind Stride, Moment of Perfect Mind, Counter Charge, Shadow Blade Technique, Wolf Fang Strike.
Swordsage 2: Island of Blades (stance), Mountain Hammer.
Swordsage 3: Cloak of Deception
Swordsage 4: Shadow Jaunt, Sudden Leap (replacing Wolf Fang Strike).
Swordsage 5: Death Mark, Assassin's Stance (stance).
Swordsage 6: Insightful Strike, Fire Riposte (replacing Wind Stride)
Swordsage 7: Comet Throw.
Master of Nine 1: Searing Blade, Death From Above.
Warblade 1: Steel Wind, Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Punishing Stance (stance).
Crusader 1: Crusader's Strike, Foehammer, Revitalizing Strike, Leading the Charge (stance), Lion's Roar, White Raven Tactics.
Swordsage 8: Scorpion Parry, Shadow Stride (replacing Shadow Jaunt).
Swordsage 9: Pouncing Charge, Shifting Defense (stance).
Swordsage 10: Raging Mongoose, Greater Insightful Strike (replacing Mountain Hammer).
Swordsage 11: Fool's Strike.
Swordsage 12: Strike of Righteous Vitality, Tornado Throw (replacing Counter Charge).
Master of Nine 2: Stance of Alacrity (stance), Time Stands Still.
Master of Nine 3: Inferno Blast, Strike of Perfect Clarity, Mountain Tombstone Strike (Martial Study).
Master of Nine 4: Press the Advantage (stance), War Master's Charge.
Master of Nine 5: Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, Feral Death Blow. "
#4
frost.fire
Jul 27, 2013 12:23:59 Hmm piggy that is very interesting, a very creative use of legacy and mo9. The build I had in mind was decisive strike monk 2/fighter 2/ ss 1/warblade 1 / shou disciple 5/ then from there I'm not sure, I'm trying to determine whether master of nine will add, which it definitly will. I'm trying to focus on AoO and I'm just trying to determine feats. With that heavy cost to set up, I'm sturggling to cover mo9 too, but the benefits are so juicy its hard to give up! Evasion tank goes to show how similiar me and andarious are aligned in this respect. I didn't necessarily go for evasion tank but I realize my build is using aspects of it. Also when I came up with this idea decisive strike seemed like a great addition to this build. I'm thinking I'm getting stretched to thin though :/
#5
piggyknowles
Jul 27, 2013 12:53:50 You could actually just barely pull of an alternate version of Darrin's trick and still get eight levels of Factotum for Cunning Surge, if I'm not mistaken:

Factotum 8/Warblade 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Mo9 4/Legacy Champion 4

That would leave you with...

6 IL from factotum/legacy champion levels (8+4, each progressing half)
8 IL from warblade/SS/Mo9
3 IL from using legay champion to progress Mo9

...for a net result of IL 17, just enough to pick up 9th level maneuvers. Less clean overall than Darrin's build, and doesn't have the cool factor of ending up with every single 9th-level maneuver, but could be worth something as a build all its own.
#6
piggyknowles
Jul 27, 2013 13:15:52
Mo9 is only worth it if you're not making the Swordsage part do the heavy lifting. Idiot Crusaders, for example, are awesome, but if you use it to be just another Swordsage, it's a waste.

I don't know, if you can find a way to leverage the feat cost, Dual Stance alone can be pretty boss, even at only 10 rounds per day. And being able to switch your stances off-turn is also pretty handy.

I'm not saying it's for everyone, because the feat cost IS pretty high, but you were going to take Adaptive Style anyhow, you get IUS for free, and if you have any reason at all to take some of the other feats, it's really not a bad direction to go in.
#7
Tempest_Stormwind
Jul 27, 2013 16:42:34
Mo9 is only worth it if you're not making the Swordsage part do the heavy lifting. Idiot Crusaders, for example, are awesome, but if you use it to be just another Swordsage, it's a waste.

I don't know, if you can find a way to leverage the feat cost, Dual Stance alone can be pretty boss, even at only 10 rounds per day. And being able to switch your stances off-turn is also pretty handy.

I'm not saying it's for everyone, because the feat cost IS pretty high, but you were going to take Adaptive Style anyhow, you get IUS for free, and if you have any reason at all to take some of the other feats, it's really not a bad direction to go in.

I think he means "heavy lifting" as in getting most of the benefit out of the Mo9, not doing the qualification for Mo9 (of which unarmed swordsage is an indisputably good way to enter). The idiot crusaders, for instance, get most of the Mo9 improvements added to Crusader.

If you're just using it to expand the swordsage's options, though, that's not a good use of Mo9.
#8
Andarious-Rosethorn
Jul 27, 2013 17:05:19 I did a Crusader/Paladin/RKV/Eternal Blade/Mot9, it was actually pretty neat, mostly because of all the stance/boost options.
#9
draco1119
Jul 30, 2013 13:21:05
1) Swordsage 1. IL = 1.0. Feat: Improved Initiative. Bonus: Blindfight. Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike.
2) Swordsage 2. IL = 2.0.
3) Swordsage 3. IL = 3.0. Feat: Adaptive Style.
4) Swordsage 4. IL = 4.0.
5) Swordsage 5. IL = 5.0. (Note: pay ritual cost for Least Legacy, if available)
6) Swordsage 6. IL = 6.0. Feat: Dodge/Desert Wind Dodge/Expeditious Dodge.
7) Swordsage 7. IL = 7.0.
8) Master of Nine 1. IL = 8.0.
9) Warblade 1. IL = 5.5. Feat: {Open}.
10) Crusader 1. IL = 6.0.
11) Legacy Champion 1. IL = 9.5.
12) Legacy Champion 2. IL = 11.0. Feat: {Open}.
13) Legacy Champion 3. IL = 12.5.
14) Legacy Champion 4. IL = 14.0.
15) Legacy Champion 5. IL = 15.5. Feat: {Open}.
16) Legacy Champion 6. IL = 17.0.
17) Master of Nine 2. IL = 18.0.
18) Master of Nine 3. IL = 19.0. Feat: Martial Study
19) Master of Nine 4. IL = 20.0.
20) Master of Nine 5. IL = 21.0.

This doesn't work, because of this stipulation in the LC's description: "If you had more than one class before becoming a legacy champion, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining class abilities."
You'd be able to qualify for Swordsage 9s, but not Warblade or Crusader 9s. Bloodlines are the only way I know of to increase ALL of your classes' abilitites.
#10
piggyknowles
Jul 30, 2013 13:32:51 You're missing the point of the build - you use LC to progress Master of Nine, which explicitly grants you maneuvers from any discipline. It doesn't need to progress all your classes, just that one.
#11
draco1119
Jul 30, 2013 13:38:43
You're missing the point of the build - you use LC to progress Master of Nine, which explicitly grants you maneuvers from any discipline. It doesn't need to progress all your classes, just that one.

Derp.
#12
Tempest_Stormwind
Jul 30, 2013 15:11:19
You're missing the point of the build - you use LC to progress Master of Nine, which explicitly grants you maneuvers from any discipline. It doesn't need to progress all your classes, just that one.

It actually does more than that: Martial adept PrCs add their full class level to all your initiator levels.

Level 8: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 1. IL: Swordsage 8.
Level 9: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 1 / Warblade 1. IL: Swordsage 8.5, Warblade 5.5 (not 5)
Level 10: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 1 / Warblade 1 / Crusader 1. IL: Swordsage 9, Warblade 6, Crusader 6 (not 5.5).
and although it breaks from the build a bit... lets forget Legacy for now and just advance Mo9.
Level 14: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 5 / Warblade 1 / Crusader 1. IL: Swordsage 13, Warblade 10, Crusader 10.

While it isn't quite to the level that binder classes go, it does work the same sort of way.
#13
piggyknowles
Jul 30, 2013 15:50:05

It actually does more than that: Martial adept PrCs add their full class level to all your initiator levels.

Level 8: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 1. IL: Swordsage 8.
Level 9: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 1 / Warblade 1. IL: Swordsage 8.5, Warblade 5.5 (not 5)
Level 10: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 1 / Warblade 1 / Crusader 1. IL: Swordsage 9, Warblade 6, Crusader 6 (not 5.5).
and although it breaks from the build a bit... lets forget Legacy for now and just advance Mo9.
Level 14: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 5 / Warblade 1 / Crusader 1. IL: Swordsage 13, Warblade 10, Crusader 10.

While it isn't quite to the level that binder classes go, it does work the same sort of way.

True - but again, that's a function of Master of Nine, not of Legacy Champion. The latter just happens to push Master of Nine beyond the five levels it was intended to go (and to bootstrap IL in general, by essentially adding 1.5 per level instead of 1 per level, of course).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 frost.fire Jul 27, 2013 10:39:23	My question is simple, weighing in the heavy feat cost, do you think master of 9 is a solid presteige class? I'm working on a build that could potentially use it but I'm curious what you guys think of it. If I have read correctly it is really only worth it to use at the last 5 levels of a build right?
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 27, 2013 10:57:50	My question is simple, weighing in the heavy feat cost, do you think master of 9 is a solid presteige class? I'm working on a build that could potentially use it but I'm curious what you guys think of it. If I have read correctly it is really only worth it to use at the last 5 levels of a build right? Depends on what you're trying to do. It's expensive, certainly, but the massive number of known maneuvers plus a ready maneuver at every level is certainly useful, and in some builds a few of the features (typically Dual Stance and Counter Stance) can be keystones. You're right that it's usually used to end a build, but those needn't be levels 15-20 (you could be building lower level than that). We used it in the Evasion Tank (Edit: Counter Stance is quite good here), and it's one of the classics for an Idiot Crusader (though hardly the only way!). Getting in can be made simpler with Unarmed Swordsage, and unless you're using Evasive Target (which needs a Dodge target selected to work), you should grab Expeditious Dodge (or, less popularly, Desert Wind Dodge, which will trigger in tighter quarters) in place of the original "Dodge".
#3 piggyknowles Jul 27, 2013 11:49:30	Here is a fun build by Darrin over on the GitP boards that uses Mo9 to pick up every 9th-level maneuver by level 20: "If we use the Unarmed Swordsage variant to get Improved Unarmed Strike, we can get into Master of Nine before we take our Warblade and Crusader levels. This gives us two more 4th level maneuvers, and increases our IL so we can take both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics with our Warblade and Crusader levels. 1) Swordsage 1. IL = 1.0. Feat: Improved Initiative. Bonus: Blindfight. Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike. 2) Swordsage 2. IL = 2.0. 3) Swordsage 3. IL = 3.0. Feat: Adaptive Style. 4) Swordsage 4. IL = 4.0. 5) Swordsage 5. IL = 5.0. (Note: pay ritual cost for Least Legacy, if available) 6) Swordsage 6. IL = 6.0. Feat: Dodge/Desert Wind Dodge/Expeditious Dodge. 7) Swordsage 7. IL = 7.0. 8) Master of Nine 1. IL = 8.0. 9) Warblade 1. IL = 5.5. Feat: {Open}. 10) Crusader 1. IL = 6.0. 11) Legacy Champion 1. IL = 9.5. 12) Legacy Champion 2. IL = 11.0. Feat: {Open}. 13) Legacy Champion 3. IL = 12.5. 14) Legacy Champion 4. IL = 14.0. 15) Legacy Champion 5. IL = 15.5. Feat: {Open}. 16) Legacy Champion 6. IL = 17.0. 17) Master of Nine 2. IL = 18.0. 18) Master of Nine 3. IL = 19.0. Feat: Martial Study 19) Master of Nine 4. IL = 20.0. 20) Master of Nine 5. IL = 21.0. Feats: 9) Snap Kick or Staggering Strike 12) Mage Slayer or Improved Critical 15) Pierce Magical Concealment or Undo Resistance Maneuver Progression: Swordsage 1: Burning Blade, Flame's Blessing (stance), Wind Stride, Moment of Perfect Mind, Counter Charge, Shadow Blade Technique, Wolf Fang Strike. Swordsage 2: Island of Blades (stance), Mountain Hammer. Swordsage 3: Cloak of Deception Swordsage 4: Shadow Jaunt, Sudden Leap (replacing Wolf Fang Strike). Swordsage 5: Death Mark, Assassin's Stance (stance). Swordsage 6: Insightful Strike, Fire Riposte (replacing Wind Stride) Swordsage 7: Comet Throw. Master of Nine 1: Searing Blade, Death From Above. Warblade 1: Steel Wind, Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Punishing Stance (stance). Crusader 1: Crusader's Strike, Foehammer, Revitalizing Strike, Leading the Charge (stance), Lion's Roar, White Raven Tactics. Swordsage 8: Scorpion Parry, Shadow Stride (replacing Shadow Jaunt). Swordsage 9: Pouncing Charge, Shifting Defense (stance). Swordsage 10: Raging Mongoose, Greater Insightful Strike (replacing Mountain Hammer). Swordsage 11: Fool's Strike. Swordsage 12: Strike of Righteous Vitality, Tornado Throw (replacing Counter Charge). Master of Nine 2: Stance of Alacrity (stance), Time Stands Still. Master of Nine 3: Inferno Blast, Strike of Perfect Clarity, Mountain Tombstone Strike (Martial Study). Master of Nine 4: Press the Advantage (stance), War Master's Charge. Master of Nine 5: Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, Feral Death Blow. "
#4 frost.fire Jul 27, 2013 12:23:59	Hmm piggy that is very interesting, a very creative use of legacy and mo9. The build I had in mind was decisive strike monk 2/fighter 2/ ss 1/warblade 1 / shou disciple 5/ then from there I'm not sure, I'm trying to determine whether master of nine will add, which it definitly will. I'm trying to focus on AoO and I'm just trying to determine feats. With that heavy cost to set up, I'm sturggling to cover mo9 too, but the benefits are so juicy its hard to give up! Evasion tank goes to show how similiar me and andarious are aligned in this respect. I didn't necessarily go for evasion tank but I realize my build is using aspects of it. Also when I came up with this idea decisive strike seemed like a great addition to this build. I'm thinking I'm getting stretched to thin though :/
#5 piggyknowles Jul 27, 2013 12:53:50	You could actually just barely pull of an alternate version of Darrin's trick and still get eight levels of Factotum for Cunning Surge, if I'm not mistaken: Factotum 8/Warblade 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Mo9 4/Legacy Champion 4 That would leave you with... 6 IL from factotum/legacy champion levels (8+4, each progressing half) 8 IL from warblade/SS/Mo9 3 IL from using legay champion to progress Mo9 ...for a net result of IL 17, just enough to pick up 9th level maneuvers. Less clean overall than Darrin's build, and doesn't have the cool factor of ending up with every single 9th-level maneuver, but could be worth something as a build all its own.
#6 piggyknowles Jul 27, 2013 13:15:52	Mo9 is only worth it if you're not making the Swordsage part do the heavy lifting. Idiot Crusaders, for example, are awesome, but if you use it to be just another Swordsage, it's a waste. I don't know, if you can find a way to leverage the feat cost, Dual Stance alone can be pretty boss, even at only 10 rounds per day. And being able to switch your stances off-turn is also pretty handy. I'm not saying it's for everyone, because the feat cost IS pretty high, but you were going to take Adaptive Style anyhow, you get IUS for free, and if you have any reason at all to take some of the other feats, it's really not a bad direction to go in.
#7 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 27, 2013 16:42:34	Mo9 is only worth it if you're not making the Swordsage part do the heavy lifting. Idiot Crusaders, for example, are awesome, but if you use it to be just another Swordsage, it's a waste. I don't know, if you can find a way to leverage the feat cost, Dual Stance alone can be pretty boss, even at only 10 rounds per day. And being able to switch your stances off-turn is also pretty handy. I'm not saying it's for everyone, because the feat cost IS pretty high, but you were going to take Adaptive Style anyhow, you get IUS for free, and if you have any reason at all to take some of the other feats, it's really not a bad direction to go in. I think he means "heavy lifting" as in getting most of the benefit out of the Mo9, not doing the qualification for Mo9 (of which unarmed swordsage is an indisputably good way to enter). The idiot crusaders, for instance, get most of the Mo9 improvements added to Crusader. If you're just using it to expand the swordsage's options, though, that's not a good use of Mo9.
#8 Andarious-Rosethorn Jul 27, 2013 17:05:19	I did a Crusader/Paladin/RKV/Eternal Blade/Mot9, it was actually pretty neat, mostly because of all the stance/boost options.
#9 draco1119 Jul 30, 2013 13:21:05	1) Swordsage 1. IL = 1.0. Feat: Improved Initiative. Bonus: Blindfight. Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike. 2) Swordsage 2. IL = 2.0. 3) Swordsage 3. IL = 3.0. Feat: Adaptive Style. 4) Swordsage 4. IL = 4.0. 5) Swordsage 5. IL = 5.0. (Note: pay ritual cost for Least Legacy, if available) 6) Swordsage 6. IL = 6.0. Feat: Dodge/Desert Wind Dodge/Expeditious Dodge. 7) Swordsage 7. IL = 7.0. 8) Master of Nine 1. IL = 8.0. 9) Warblade 1. IL = 5.5. Feat: {Open}. 10) Crusader 1. IL = 6.0. 11) Legacy Champion 1. IL = 9.5. 12) Legacy Champion 2. IL = 11.0. Feat: {Open}. 13) Legacy Champion 3. IL = 12.5. 14) Legacy Champion 4. IL = 14.0. 15) Legacy Champion 5. IL = 15.5. Feat: {Open}. 16) Legacy Champion 6. IL = 17.0. 17) Master of Nine 2. IL = 18.0. 18) Master of Nine 3. IL = 19.0. Feat: Martial Study 19) Master of Nine 4. IL = 20.0. 20) Master of Nine 5. IL = 21.0. This doesn't work, because of this stipulation in the LC's description: "If you had more than one class before becoming a legacy champion, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining class abilities." You'd be able to qualify for Swordsage 9s, but not Warblade or Crusader 9s. Bloodlines are the only way I know of to increase ALL of your classes' abilitites.
#10 piggyknowles Jul 30, 2013 13:32:51	You're missing the point of the build - you use LC to progress Master of Nine, which explicitly grants you maneuvers from any discipline. It doesn't need to progress all your classes, just that one.
#11 draco1119 Jul 30, 2013 13:38:43	You're missing the point of the build - you use LC to progress Master of Nine, which explicitly grants you maneuvers from any discipline. It doesn't need to progress all your classes, just that one. Derp.
#12 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 30, 2013 15:11:19	You're missing the point of the build - you use LC to progress Master of Nine, which explicitly grants you maneuvers from any discipline. It doesn't need to progress all your classes, just that one. It actually does more than that: Martial adept PrCs add their full class level to all your initiator levels. Level 8: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 1. IL: Swordsage 8. Level 9: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 1 / Warblade 1. IL: Swordsage 8.5, Warblade 5.5 (not 5) Level 10: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 1 / Warblade 1 / Crusader 1. IL: Swordsage 9, Warblade 6, Crusader 6 (not 5.5). and although it breaks from the build a bit... lets forget Legacy for now and just advance Mo9. Level 14: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 5 / Warblade 1 / Crusader 1. IL: Swordsage 13, Warblade 10, Crusader 10. While it isn't quite to the level that binder classes go, it does work the same sort of way.
#13 piggyknowles Jul 30, 2013 15:50:05	It actually does more than that: Martial adept PrCs add their full class level to all your initiator levels. Level 8: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 1. IL: Swordsage 8. Level 9: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 1 / Warblade 1. IL: Swordsage 8.5, Warblade 5.5 (not 5) Level 10: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 1 / Warblade 1 / Crusader 1. IL: Swordsage 9, Warblade 6, Crusader 6 (not 5.5). and although it breaks from the build a bit... lets forget Legacy for now and just advance Mo9. Level 14: Swordsage 7 / Mo9 5 / Warblade 1 / Crusader 1. IL: Swordsage 13, Warblade 10, Crusader 10. While it isn't quite to the level that binder classes go, it does work the same sort of way. True - but again, that's a function of Master of Nine, not of Legacy Champion. The latter just happens to push Master of Nine beyond the five levels it was intended to go (and to bootstrap IL in general, by essentially adding 1.5 per level instead of 1 per level, of course).