I'm not sticking to the PHB, and I've come up with this to start:
Raptorian Fighter20
Sacred Vow
Vow of Poverty
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Initiative
Improved Flight
Nymph's Kiss
Vow of Nonviolence
Vow of Peace
Servant of the Heavens
There's 25 or so feats to fill up, so have at it.
(Also, possibly tack on the saint template and use LA buyoff?)
I'm not sticking to the PHB, ...
Raptorian Fighter20
Then the question is moot.
Then the question is moot.
How so? Is flight the only thing keeping a fighter from beating a wizard? Or are you saying that a raptorian will lose no matter what?
oh, I think i see what you're saying. By not sticking to the PHB, the fighter has a possibility to win.
Whatever you do, don't pick Vow of poverty, you need your wealth, you really do.
I was thinking about that, and I see why having lots of magic items would make it easier for the fighter. But that's not really the point. A fighter with magic items becomes (in my mind) a sort of really, really weak wizard and loses the essence of being a fighter. The ring with wish from another thread is an example. Sure, a fighter could use it to almost win, but then it becomes a battle between a wizard and a magic item, no longer between a wizard and a fighter. A commoner with a lot of money could make use of the ring; its no longer something unique to the fighter.
By not sticking to the PHB, the fighter has a possibility to win.
Right and it is also no longer a "fighter" from the PHB and thus not a "fighter" in the original sense of the class.
Right and it is also no longer a "fighter" from the PHB and thus not a "fighter" in the original sense of the class.
Ice burn.
Okay, I see. I know its not a possibility using the PHB, but I was wondering if someone could come up with something.
I was thinking about that, and I see why having lots of magic items would make it easier for the fighter. But that's not really the point. A fighter with magic items becomes (in my mind) a sort of really, really weak wizard and loses the essence of being a fighter. The ring with wish from another thread is an example. Sure, a fighter could use it to almost win, but then it becomes a battle between a wizard and a magic item, no longer between a wizard and a fighter. A commoner with a lot of money could make use of the ring; its no longer something unique to the fighter.
How exactly does a magical sword make you a weak Wizard?
Okay, I see. I know its not a possibility using the PHB, but I was wondering if someone could come up with something.
Sure, if you aren't sticking to fighter vs. wizard all kinds of things are possible.
JaronK
Go looking through Surreal's Dex there are probably some Mage-Hunter Melee types in there, problem is that the fighter is so focused on Mage-killing he's not much good for anything else. So then the Monk beats him.
The way I've always looked at it is the Fighter and Sorcerer are "Basic" Classes designed that teach new players how to play 3.5. There is no harm in that. However once they know what they are doing they move on to something more advanced and leave the sandbox. Really, Fighter’s have a "use" that only they excel at. It’s just not what most people think.
Most everyone seems to dismiss this out of hand, but is there anyway a level20 fighter could beat a wizard in a duel?
Not really, if the wizard player knows what he's doing, has optimized his defenses to the point of being paranoid, and the rules don't somehow totally gimp him (i.e. the dual starts with him naked, prone, and asleep with no buffs). It is possible for a well-built fighter played by a very good player to beat a wizard that isn't optimized defensively through the nose and/or isn't played by as skilled of a player. But if both are skilled players with well-built characters specifically built for this kind of thing, then no, it's just about impossible for the fighter to win.
Not really, if the wizard player knows what he's doing, has optimized his defenses to the point of being paranoid, and the rules don't somehow totally gimp him (i.e. the dual starts with him naked, prone, and asleep with no buffs). It is possible for a well-built fighter played by a very good player to beat a wizard that isn't optimized defensively through the nose and/or isn't played by as skilled of a player. But if both are skilled players with well-built characters specifically built for this kind of thing, then no, it's just about impossible for the fighter to win.
And the funny thing is, no amount of natural 20s is going to save the Fighter...
is there anyway a level20 fighter could beat a wizard in a duel?
All things being equal (meaning the players are of equal competency, same sources are allowed, equal optimization)... no.
If the Fighter was uber-optimized and the Wizard wasn't, AND the Fighter manages to win initiative... yeah, I can think of some scenarios where the fighter could win.
If the Wizard is 'naked, prone, and asleep with no buffs' he's in an extradimensional space. What's he have to fear from a Muggle? Though I wonder why his hour/level stuff and 24 hour stuff isn't there, regardless he cannot be touched. He can also see the BSF down there through the window or something without being seen himself. So he prepares, pops out, and kills the interloper.
Oh and the basic melee class is the Barbarian. Fighters are an advanced class in that you must dumpster dive through 9,001 sources to do anything meaningful and are the least rewarding proportionally for that effort. That is to say, you're putting a whole lot of work into a whole lot of nothing.
I am ignoring the troll for obvious reasons.
you need a way to get him into an anti-magic field and lots of arrows of slaying. a luckstone and/or a luckblade is also helpful. even then, youre only going to win out of luck once in a blue moon.
You are aware that the arrows and other stuff would turn off in an AMF right? You're also aware that when you're stuck with normal ground movement he can easily just avoid you and cast spells right through the AMF? And to get an AMF in the first place, you would have to be a high level and stupid caster to cast that spell? Yeah.
You are aware that the arrows and other stuff would turn off in an AMF right?
yeah so? when youre ready to take the shot, you move him out of it. duh.
You're also aware that when you're stuck with normal ground movement he can easily just avoid you and cast spells right through the AMF?
if he is in an AMF then he is stuck with normal ground movement too.
And to get an AMF in the first place, you would have to be a high level and stupid caster to cast that spell? Yeah.
right because its totally impossible to duplicate the effects of a spell with items. how did i forget about that one?
Also, why do you say the Wizard can't fly in an AMF? Why do you assume such a thing? Does the Wizard not have the ability to Planar Bind natural fliers? Can he not ride a zombie created by Animate Dead?
JaronK
Can you actually name an item that projects an AMF? The only one I can think of is the AMF Torque, but that's short range only. How do you plan to get the Wizard into it? And are you sure the Wizard is helpless once inside? Personally, when I make Wizards designed for PvP, they're always quite effective in an AMF if they're of mid to high level. In fact, I've made Wizards for duals like this that wear an Antimagic Torque, just to confuse enemy Fighters.
Also, why do you say the Wizard can't fly in an AMF? Why do you assume such a thing? Does the Wizard not have the ability to Planar Bind natural fliers? Can he not ride a zombie created by Animate Dead?
JaronK
"No minions" solves a lot.
Also, the Arrow of Slaying tactic is all about supernovaing with expensive consumables and hoping they roll a 1, assuming they simply are not immune to Death effects. Which is to say, it is 99.7% useless in an arena and 100% useless anywhere else. Way to go.
AMF is 10 feet wide. You aren't trapping anything, even if you can get it in range using only mundane, non boosted movement. What you are doing is making yourself a massive target.
Also, the Arrow of Slaying tactic is all about supernovaing with expensive consumables and hoping they roll a 1, assuming they simply are not immune to Death effects. Which is to say, it is 99.7% useless in an arena and 100% useless anywhere else. Way to go.
id like to see you come up with a fighter that has more than the 0.3% chance against a 20wizard. or you can continue to sit there being smug and refusing to actually participate in the thread.
JaronK
Can you actually name an item that projects an AMF? The only one I can think of is the AMF Torque, but that's short range only. How do you plan to get the Wizard into it? And are you sure the Wizard is helpless once inside? Personally, when I make Wizards designed for PvP, they're always quite effective in an AMF if they're of mid to high level. In fact, I've made Wizards for duals like this that wear an Antimagic Torque, just to confuse enemy Fighters.
Also, why do you say the Wizard can't fly in an AMF? Why do you assume such a thing? Does the Wizard not have the ability to Planar Bind natural fliers? Can he not ride a zombie created by Animate Dead?
JaronK
Where is this AMF Torque? Which book??
Where is this AMF Torque? Which book??
Underdark, I think. You could also use a Ring of Spellstoring, of course.
Underdark, I think. You could also use a Ring of Spellstoring, of course.
200k item, needs a caster to function, still owned by this neat thing called range. Oops. Did I mention it also takes a round?
JaronK
Common things assumed.
1. The arena is large & open. There is no place to hide, nothing to duck under, it's ranged guy's home turf vs the guy that has to charge him.
2. Buff time, because wizards always have 15+ buff spells going at once.
3. The wizard is a BBEG, IE they own their own plane, dozens of minions, back ups, clones, runs around in a fake body.
4. The fighter gets stated, the wizard remains a generic 'what-if' comment tossed out by people. Thus allowing the metagaming wizard to exploit every possible weakness in the example fighter by assuming the wizard is specifically built to beat that fighter.
5. The fighter cannot run away, but the wizard can move to different planes.
6. The fighter is not fighting the wizard at all. He is fighting a proxy. See #3, but repeated again because this is bears repeating.
7. "I can haz have teh broken combo of cunning & celerity" a wizard claims despite being banned from every known game. But the fighter is not allowed UMD because it's flavor contradictory, even if the fighter is focused on killing mages.
8. No cost. Wizard casting gate drops to the 19th level due to the XP costs. This is ignored, or extra XP is granted to the wizard, see #[this entire list of rule tweaks favoring the wizard]. Other spells such as simulacrum, ice assassin, contingency tattoos, etc. may be used as well.
With the power 8 always in freaking effect on this boards. There is no way a fighter could come close to beating the wizard. In fact, it takes a group of four adventurers and an out of game three months to kill him.
The Fighter can try to run all he wants, but that won't save him. The Wizard really can do things like go to another plane of existance to plan things out... he controls the fight in that way. In the end, you have one person who can reshape reality, and another who hits things with a weapon. It's just not the same league at all. In the end, it just comes down to the Wizard saying "I'll use this trick, which wins" and the Fighter screaming "that's cheesy, and banned in every game!" over and over, with the Wizard picking new tricks all the time, and in the end the Fighter wins because everything the Wizard does that's stronger than what a Fighter can do is banned.
I mean seriously, sure you can say "oh, Celerity is banned" but then the Wizard uses Shapechange to turn into a Dire Tortoise and now goes in the surprise round that doesn't even exist, so you say "oh, Shapechanged is banned." So next the Wizard shows up to the arena Haunt Shifted into a Hardened Obdurium statue with the benefit of Augment Object, so his hardness is now 80 or so and thus the Fighter can't even hurt him, and the Fighter says "Cheesy! Haunt Shift is banned!" Okay, so then the Wizard tries Planar Binding Efrettis for infinite wishes, but of course you have to ban that too because that's rediculous. So maybe the Wizard tries casting Gate to get a Solar to kill you, and you whine about the Exp cost... as if a 19th level Wizard can't do the exact same thing. Or maybe the Wizard Gates into his Flowing Time Genesis plane to blow the crap out of the Fighter regardless of what the Fighter is, and you ban Gate and Genesis. So maybe now the Wizard just creates a skeletal Titan using Plague of Undead, armours it, and hides inside it where the Fighter can't target him without dealing with the Titan first, giving the Wizard plenty of time to take out the Fighter, but you ban Plague of Undead too. And now the Wizard shows up with a few illusionary duplicates of himself so the Fighter can't even figure out what he's fighting or where, and you ban that too.
How long do we have to plan this game before you've banned absolutely everything, and realize that it's no longer "Fighter vs Wizard" but rather "Fighter vs a Wizard nerfed down to Fighter level" and realize that that's useless?
JaronK
The key thing is simply to get next to the Wizard and get him in an AM shell before init is rolled (if the wizard has a celerity item, you have a celerity item, yay!). The second way is to replicate via Polymorph a beholder's anti-magic ray...considerably more effective and widespread, hence harder to avoid. Highly enjoyable is just stuffing Dust of negation down his robe so he carries around the AM shell on him...
Making sure a FOrbiddance spell is up to deny all planar travel/teleport effects also assures that he can't simply 'pop out' when something happens, although Mage Slayer enough is going to nerf most spellcasting if he's right next to you.
The game is based around the predication that no one is smart enough to regularly negate the single most threatening force in the game...free and rampant magic use. Spellcasters can go anywhere and do anything, and even in high magic games, nobody takes any precautions against this. Very silly. High level strongholds are probably full of AM fields, magic-immune or inert substances, and the like. No worse then nerfing basic combat ability, or the need for basic skills, you know?
Also note that becoming an Heir of Siberys is setting specific, and never flat footed takes another feat in addition to blowing the feat so you can enter the class to begin with. I'm fairly sure the 'no flat foot' is specific to particular Dragonmark feat, and it's not the ones of Scribing the Gnomes are allowed to have...
==Aelryinth
Jaron's use of Genesis is based on his belief that Time is a trait a wizard is allowed to manipulate for his Genesis plane, which actually has no written support anywhere.
Psionic Genesis
Genesis
Metacreativity (Creation)
Level: Shaper 9
Display: Material
Manifesting Time: One week (8 hours/day)
Range: 180 ft.; see text
Effect: A demiplane coterminous with the Astral Plane, centered on your location
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 17, XP
You create a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane. Demiplanes created by this power are very small, very minor planes. This power works best when manifested while you are on the Astral Plane. Manifestation of this power creates a local density fluctuation that precipitates the creation of a demiplane. At first, the fledgling plane grows in radius at a rate of 1 foot per day to an initial maximum radius of 180 feet as it rapidly draws substance from the surrounding astral ectoplasm. Once the new demiplane reaches its maximum size, it doesn’t really stop growing, but its growth rate decreases to only 1 foot per week (approximately a 50-foot increase in radius per year). Once your demiplane is created, you can travel to it using astral caravan, plane shift, or some other power or permanent link that you arrange for separately.
You determine the environment within the demiplane when you manifest genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize. You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This power cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). You must add these details in some other fashion if you desire. You can’t create lingering psionic effects with this power; you have to add those separately, if desired. Similarly, you can’t create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium; you’re limited to stone and dirt. You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane. Once your demiplane reaches 180 feet in radius, you can manifest this power again to gradually add another 180 feet of radius to it, and so on.
Antigenesis
If genesis is manifested on the Material Plane, the power takes effect and the demiplane begins to grow at the rate noted above, but it gets no larger than a radius of 1 foot per level. The energies of the new plane are exactly canceled by the energies of the original plane, creating a dead spot like a limited cancer on the original plane. The expanding boundary of the dead spot wipes away all construction, crumbles natural land forms, and evaporates water, leaving behind a uniformly level area of inert dust. Living creatures that pass the boundary of the growing dead spot are not directly affected, but plants can find no sustenance in the dust of the dead spot, water-breathing creatures die quickly when water turns to dust, and mobile animals know enough to leave the area alone. Once the wave of change passes, no special essence remains in the dead spot, and it may be colonized naturally over the course of several years by bacteria, plants, and animals.
XP Cost
1,000 XP.
1) Is there preparing allowed (does the wizard have contingency spell already up for example) - if so, how much? Preperation favors the wizard.
2) What is the starting range - are you starting 500 feet apart, 5 feet apart, or nose to nose? Range favors the wizard.
3) Does the player who will be running the wizard know how to optimize? Does he know that whipping Meteor Swarm at the fighter is a terrible option? Or is he going to be ready with optimized spell use. The more optimization in play - the greater the advantage to the wizard.
Sword of Banishment (vs. Summons)
Armor of Etherealness (vs. Teleportation)
Winged Boots
Cloak of Teleportation
Candle of Revelation (vs. Stealth)
Ring of Freedom (vs. most trapping effects)
Mageslayer feat
I mean, other than the standard gear, what else is there? What does he do against WoForce?
JaronK
LostPass... that's just not true.
The Fighter can try to run all he wants, but that won't save him.
You got me there. Only monk's can flee and live, it's what they were designed for.
Other counters.
Vs Ironguard
Use bronzesteel, or whatever it's named from eberron.
Vs Celerity being used on your turn.
Use a belt of battle in response, still go first anyway.
Vs Proxys
Winning based on getting someone else to do the work for you is not just a wizard thing. Abuse diplomacy, leadership, and/or hirables and have an entire army of wizards teleport in and help you out. Also, candles on invocation are pretty handy.
Vs I'm a BBEG, I got all kinds of stuff during my life, unlike you!
The wizard get's his own plane, fort, and fake bodies just because he can cast a spell and fighters get nothing? Screw that. Why do posters nerf a fighter's in game possibilities to make their wizard arguments if they think a wizard is so god-like to begin with? Let's try: The fighter gets the weatherlight just because he can able to stab the captain. Fear the power of BBEG-status & pointless arguing!
Vs Shapechange.
Aka the wizard gives up all of his wizard spells, turns into a lame awakened version of the monster that lacks the proper feats & Sps of the real monster of his type. Just beat the crap out of him. Unless the wizard is using shapechange just to walk into the fight as a dire turtle, simply being optimized will be enough.
Vs Contingency.
Live though the first round. No more contingency for them. ;)
Vs all buffs.
Greater Dispel Magic, there are a number of things that give this. Example, legacy items with I think a required custom cl boost. 1d20+20 vs 31+their cl boosters to remove a buff. Even if you knock out a 1/4 of them you could end up breaking their heart of spell chain allowing you to crit them.
Vs target based spells that check SR.
Rod of Absorption.
Vs spells that allow saves.
Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000, resistance)
Bracers of Empyreal Armor +6 (64,000, BoED, unnamed)
Luckstone (20,000, luck)
Parry (8,000, SRD; psionics, insight)
Vengful (+1, SoS, moral)
+5 Spellstrike gauntlet (72,000, MiC, unamed)
= +19 to all saves. 19! Basically their ability bonus vs your (ability bonus+base saves+1d20), they may have spell focus, but who cares. Consider Deformity(madness)(EE), Steadfast Determination(PHBII), and a luck reroll. Just in case of a natural 1.
Vs all spells.
Ethereal Reaver(CPsi) + Cloak of Etherealness, immune to all nonforce spells, you can fly, float though walls, prefect move silently checks, invisible, and you still get to swing & kill as normal. It can't be dispelled either. If the wizard has to stay inside the ring (expected of most arena fights really) then it comes down to can the wizard out run your charge?
Vs Wall Of Force
Rod of Negatation, nonlethally smack it around and into the wall with your Ethereal Reaver if the wizard has read about the trick from above.
Vs people refusing to start out their wizard and arguing potential.
UMD. Because potentially, a UMDer can do everything a wizard wants to do.
Vs Dirty Trick A.
Use Dirty Trick B.
Fast Fact: All the above is mostly items, returned BS, and tactics. Anything from a commoner to a master of nine can use them.
You got me there. Only monk's can flee and live, it's what they were designed for.
How? Love's Pain will kill at any range, after all.
Vs Celerity being used on your turn.
Use a belt of battle in response, still go first anyway.
Celerity happens before your turn. You don't get a turn... that's the point.
Vs Proxys
Winning based on getting someone else to do the work for you is not just a wizard thing. Abuse diplomacy, leadership, and/or hirables and have an entire army of wizards teleport in and help you out. Also, candles on invocation are pretty handy.
Who are you to determine what is a Wizard thing? Wizards have plenty of spells designed specifically for getting someone else to do it when you can't be bothered. Planar Binding, Gate, Summon Monster, Animate Dead, Plague of Undead, and so on. Candles of Invocation and all the other things you mentioned are as available to Wizards as Fighters... more so in fact, for the most part.
Vs I'm a BBEG, I got all kinds of stuff during my life, unlike you!
The wizard get's his own plane, fort, and fake bodies just because he can cast a spell and fighters get nothing? Screw that.
Um, yes. Wizards can make their own planes, forts, and fake bodies with their spells. Fighters do not get such abilities. That's because Wizards have godlike powers and Fighters don't. Fighters can, I dunno, craft their own mundane gear, but that's about it.
Why do posters nerf a fighter's in game possibilities to make their wizard arguments if they think a wizard is so god-like to begin with? Let's try: The fighter gets the weatherlight just because he can able to stab the captain. Fear the power of BBEG-status & pointless arguing!
Please explain how you can be absolutely sure that you get the chance to stab the captain and take the ship, including how you can be sure to track him down and all that. I can easily explain how I can be sure the Wizard casts Genesis (he simply choses to do so). Wizard wants a fort? Sure, that'll take a few days of casting Magecraft, Wall of Stone, and Fabricate, but he can do it any time he likes... perhaps he'll Plane Shift to a nice spot to do it in.
Vs Shapechange.
Aka the wizard gives up all of his wizard spells, turns into a lame awakened version of the monster that lacks the proper feats & Sps of the real monster of his type. Just beat the crap out of him. Unless the wizard is using shapechange just to walk into the fight as a dire turtle, simply being optimized will be enough.
Yes, the Wizard can walk around as a Dire Tortoise, then later shift into something else once things get started... how about a Solar so he gets 20th level Cleric casting, just to be annoying? He can cast just fine as a Solar.
JaronK
Who are you to determine what is a Wizard thing?
Who are you to say what's not?
Celerity happens before your turn. You don't get a turn... that's the point.
And mine was a point of them using celerity on your turn, not before, not after, not on the wizard's turn. I think you just commented on that to argue more than anything else.
Please explain how you can be absolutely sure that you get the chance to stab the captain and take the ship, including how you can be sure to track him down and all that.
I'd say the fighter got it in the same place the wizard got all those 9th level spell scrolls to cast those spells your talking about.
Look, you can spend pointless hours arguing what can and cannot be found in game if you want. I don't have the patience to deal with you. Contribute to the thread instead of winning about conditions favoring a wizard being bumped to something more fair, pointless trolling, and poor attempts to discredit me when you can't come up with a valid point on your own.
Anything given BBEG-like fiat will always be better than something that don't. Nothing is proven by assuming the wizard has the in game resources to acquire the scrolls & time to cast and create an entire world & stronghold while ignoring the fact any character can simply buy a flying ship with laser-like ballista and crew it with the people granted by their leadership feat.
If one build gets to do whatever the heck they want in a made up world. The other can to. If one don't, then they both shouldn't. If you want to ban the fighter from having other creatures help him, then the wizard should likewise be banned form having help as well. If you want the wizard to actually fight the fighter instead of an 18th level wizard cohort serving as a champion in his place, then the real wizard should be there too. You want this in an arena then it should be in an arena, no plane shifting, rope tricking, or even ethereal plane & sword cop outs.
The question asked in the thread is 'is there a way for a fighter to beat a wizard?'. And while questioning weather or not such was can really be done is fine. Posting 'fail, most fighters don't do y' / 'you're silly, wizard does y' / 'the rules no longer favor wizards, you fail!' really needs to be kept out of here. Direct those comments to this thread instead.
***
A hair off topic.
He can cast just fine as a Solar.
You know, I always wondered about that. If you change into a divine caster, do you suddenly get the spells granted by that caster's deity/alignment virtue despite minor things that may pop up like like not worshiping any deities/wrong alignment, and/or you didn't pray for any spells?
Is that left up to the DM or is there a rule handling that?
Also a Solar is still an example of being lamer than the real monster. You give up all your items that are granting you bonuses to saves, abilities, CL boosts, and even possibly your legacy abilities assuming you didn't make it into an easy to sunder weapon. You also give up arcane spells, and int based casting for the weaker alternative of divine spells and wisdom based casting. I guess the regeneration 15 & DR 15/epic is nice, but you still don't belong in combat with your 1d6 provokes-an-AoO-punch and d4 based HP. Solars are handy for divine spell access depending on the DM/answer asked for above, but not really for combat.
Also, you shouldn't lose spellcasting either. I also don't think you get spellcasting.
Who are you to say what's not?
You're the one stating that Wizards using minions is not a Wizard thing, as though Necromancers don't exist. Wizards have specific abilities that make them good at using minions, so the claim that Wizards don't use minions or that using minions is not a Wizard thing is silly.
And mine was a point of them using celerity on your turn, not before, not after, not on the wizard's turn. I think you just commented on that to argue more than anything else.
Then your point was irrelevant. In a duel situation at high levels, the Wizard is going to be going first... there's no need to let the Fighter even get to his turn.
I'd say the fighter got it in the same place the wizard got all those 9th level spell scrolls to cast those spells your talking about.
Wizards get those spells as class abilities. Fighters do not get access to the captain of any sky ship as a class ability. So no, the Fighter did not get that in the same place that the Wizard got his spells.
And, for the record, he doesn't need to find the spells on scrolls. By level 20 he's gotten at least 6 spells of his choice from leveling up alone, and can research duplicates of any other spell he happens to want, since researching always works if you're duplicating an existing spell. Heck, if he's doing the genesis trick he can hang out in his super speed plane and research them all right there instantaneously.
Look, you can spend pointless hours arguing what can and cannot be found in game if you want. I don't have the patience to deal with you. Contribute to the thread instead of winning about conditions favoring a wizard being bumped to something more fair, pointless trolling, and poor attempts to discredit me when you can't come up with a valid point on your own.
I am contributing, by stating some of the Wizard tactics available. All you're doing is making unfounded assertions, which I've shot down at every turn. For example, you just claimed that Fighters get access to specific ship captains from the same place that Wizards get spells, when Wizards spells are a class ability (including the ability to research others) and Fighters do not get any form of tracking as a class ability.
Anything given BBEG-like fiat will always be better than something that don't. Nothing is proven by assuming the wizard has the in game resources to acquire the scrolls & time to cast and create an entire world & stronghold while ignoring the fact any character can simply buy a flying ship with laser-like ballista and crew it with the people granted by their leadership feat.
Again, here you claim that Wizards need to acquire scrolls to cast spells. This is not true. A Wizard can have every spell in existance without ever being given a single spell simply through research. Meanwhile, your laser ballistas do pathetic damage and your ship can be seen from miles away and destroyed... if such ships exist in game. See how you're depending on certain things being in a campaign, but I'm not? The Wizard needs nothing to have those spells, he just gets them via class abilities.
As to the bit about Solars: by RAW, you gain the Ex Special Attacks of a Solar when you shapechange. One of those is "Spells." You can read that right there in the entry. You do not lose your gear by turning into one, nor do you IIRC lose your own casting. You'd probably have to sit and memorize spells for an hour since you get casting like a Cleric, but that's fine... Shapechange will be lasting at least 200 minutes at that level, and a greater metamagic rod of extend would make that longer, as would any caster level bumps. Your own house rules may change that, but that's your buisiness.
JaronK
You're the one stating that Wizards using minions is not a Wizard thing,
Actually I was complaining about fighting by proxy it's self being pointless to compaire two things.
You say, "use gate to force another creature to fight for you".
Which is not wizard vs fighter. It's creature A vs fighter.
I say, "use diplomacy to get another creature to fight for you".
Which is fair since it's creature A vs creature B.
You say, "The wizard has the time to make an undead adamantine ninja door".
Again, it's not wizard vs fighter. It's fighter vs game provided creature A.
I say, "The fighter has the time to recruit people with a feat".
Well, with the boat example it's flying-ship vs creature A.
Both of which are not fighter vs wizard at all. It's just a show of who has better in-game resources or pokemon.
Wizards get those spells as class abilities. Fighters do not get access to the captain of any sky ship as a class ability. So no, the Fighter did not get that in the same place that the Wizard got his spells.
&
This is not true. A Wizard can have every spell in existance without ever being given a single spell simply through research.
Again, wizard gets all this time in a world to amass anything he wants. But the fighter can't spend his gold or take a feat (and extra feats is their class ability). Why don't you take away the fighter's BAB & HD while your at it? Who said something about banning this and that to nerfing a class is pointless again?
You may not consider feats & skills to be acceptable. But I don't consider fighter vs Solar fight to have any relevance to a fighter vs wizard fight. I guess we all got our ticks, mine just seem a lot more sound to me than yours try to be.
which I've shot down at every turn.
You have shot down everything posted in this thread that you could. I don't find that helpful at all. Try something positive.
if such ships exist in game.
Cloud Kneel, expensive as heck though. It's 3E but there no update for it and it's not campaign specific. 'laser' anything amounts to weapon enchantments.
***
The target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features (even if the new form would normally be able to use these class features).
...
Any gear worn or carried by the target melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.
...
For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool.
Shapechange inherits those rules and does not override the class feature loss or item handling.
Actually I was complaining about fighting by proxy it's self being pointless to compaire two things.
You say, "use gate to force another creature to fight for you".
Which is not wizard vs fighter. It's creature A vs fighter.
I say, "use diplomacy to get another creature to fight for you".
Which is fair since it's creature A vs creature B.
You say, "The wizard has the time to make an undead adamantine ninja door".
Again, it's not wizard vs fighter. It's fighter vs game provided creature A.
I say, "The fighter has the time to recruit people with a feat".
Well, with the boat example it's flying-ship vs creature A.
What you're missing here is that it's a Wizard spell that puts the minion in the fight. Fighters don't have any specific ability to get followers with diplomacy or whatever, but Wizards actually do have class abilities that give them minions stronger than a Fighter. Your complaint is that one tiny part of a Wizard's class is really powerful... well yeah, it is. But Fighters do NOT get to find flying ships as a class ability. Nothing like it.
Saying "oh, if a minion is involved then it's not a Wizard doing it" is silly. I could just as easily complain that it's the Fighter's weapon that's hitting, not the Fighter, so the Fighter shouldn't get weapons... actually, that would be more justifiable, because access to weapons is somewhat campaign specific (it could be a low magic campaign) while Wizards being able to cast Planar Binding is always legal unless house rules dictate otherwise, and getting weapons is not a Fighter class ability while casting Planar Binding is a Wizard class ability. But of course I won't, because that's silly.
Both of which are not fighter vs wizard at all. It's just a show of who has better in-game resources or pokemon.
Again, we're talking about the effects of a few specific Wizard abilities. What's next, you claiming that Fireball isn't allowed because then it's Fireball vs Fighter?
Again, wizard gets all this time in a world to amass anything he wants.
Yup! Now you're getting it. Wizards get spells like Genesis and Rope Trick and Mordenkeen's Mansion to ensure that they have all the time in the world to do research whenever they want. Seriously, we're talking about a class that can create private studies whenever they like in safety. That makes research quite simple. Fighters don't get that, now do they?
But the fighter can't spend his gold or take a feat (and extra feats is their class ability). Why don't you take away the fighter's BAB & HD while your at it? Who said something about banning this and that to nerfing a class is pointless again?
Strawman. You can use whatever gold expendature you want, or take feats. You just can't arbitrarily declair that you found some ship for free. No one's stopping you from using feats.
You may not consider feats & skills to be acceptable. But I don't consider fighter vs Solar fight to have any relevance to a fighter vs wizard fight. I guess we all got our ticks, mine just seem a lot more sound to me than yours try to be.
I never said you couldn't take feats. Knock yourself out... take the strongest you can (though Leadership will get silly, but that's cool... Wizards can take it just as easily). So, my ticks are hallucinations in your mind, whereas yours are objections to Wizard class abilities.
Cloud Kneel, expensive as heck though. It's 3E but there no update for it and it's not campaign specific. 'laser' anything amounts to weapon enchantments.
Yes, that's cute, but how does having a flying ship help? All that does is give you a big target. I didn't say you couldn't have it, just that you can't jump a captain for some reason and get it free. Meanwhile, Ballistae are slow to reload and don't do impressive damage... they're no threat to a Wizard anyway. A good archer Fighter will do more than 5 Ballistae anyway. So, seriously, why do you think a flying ship is anything but an easy target?
Shapechange inherits those rules and does not override the class feature loss or item handling.
Drop gear, Shapechange, put gear back on. Not hard. Either way, you can just shapechange into a Black Ethergaunt if you want to be in an alternate form and still cast as a Wizard.
JaronK
Lols.
Shapechange inherits those rules and does not override the class feature loss or item handling.
Actually, it does.
Spells That Have Come Before
For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter self, for instance, does not change the target's ability scores (unlike normal for spells of the polymorph subschool).
This spell functions like polymorph, except...
This spell functions like alter self, except...
You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.... When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional....
1) How many level 20 fighters are needed to take one level 20 wizard, assuming they start 100 feet from each other, inside an infinite arena composed of nothing more than compact sand (like the ground of a coliseum, only infinite)?
2) What level should a fighter be to defeat (or at least have a chance against) a level 20 wizard?
3) Is there any non arcane-casting class that (at level 20) can be a match for a level 20 wizard?
I have three questions about the fighter/ wizard conflict:
1) How many level 20 fighters are needed to take one level 20 wizard, assuming they start 100 feet from each other, inside an infinite arena composed of nothing more than compact sand (like the ground of a coliseum, only infinite)?
2) What level should a fighter be to defeat (or at least have a chance against) a level 20 wizard?
3) Is there any non arcane-casting class that (at level 20) can be a match for a level 20 wizard?
1) One.
2) 20.
3) all of them.
At long last, easy answers to easy questions!:D
The key thing is simply to get next to the Wizard and get him in an AM shell before init is rolled (if the wizard has a celerity item, you have a celerity item, yay!). The second way is to replicate via Polymorph a beholder's anti-magic ray...considerably more effective and widespread, hence harder to avoid. Highly enjoyable is just stuffing Dust of negation down his robe so he carries around the AM shell on him...
Hmmm - I wonder...how can a non-caster overcome the typical high-level wizard defense combo of foresight and celerity?
The never ending struggle continues. . .
It is a SRD divine spell (creation). So I'm not quite sure how the wizard gets it.
The link for the genesis spell.
It is a SRD divine spell (creation). So I'm not quite sure how the wizard gets it.
I found an arcane version on a 3rd party SRD site. Not sure how I can justify it in a game yet though.
Don't get me wrong, I think it should be an arcane spell....
*edit* found it, epic level handbook page 117.
I have three questions about the fighter/ wizard conflict:
1) How many level 20 fighters are needed to take one level 20 wizard, assuming they start 100 feet from each other, inside an infinite arena composed of nothing more than compact sand (like the ground of a coliseum, only infinite)?
2) What level should a fighter be to defeat (or at least have a chance against) a level 20 wizard?
3) Is there any non arcane-casting class that (at level 20) can be a match for a level 20 wizard?
Ignoring the lies, here are the correct answers:
1: Doesn't matter, as the Fighters are just meaningless mooks and Wizard 20s kill NI meaningless mooks. NI - Near Infinite. Last I checked, you couldn't fit that many into an arena of that size.
2: 9,001. Even then, it still might not help.
3: Cleric. Druid. Artificer. None are arcane, but the last one will be stealing a lot of Wizard tricks.
Shapechange inherits those rules and does not override the class feature loss or item handling.
No it doesn't. Read the part on "spells that came before". All the original spells are completely unaffected by those rules.
Edit: Bah, someone beat me to it.
All the normal points have been made.
It ends up coming down to how it is all set up.
1. If the wizard gets no buff time, neither does the fighter. This is simple. A wizard is never unbuffed, and a fighter is never unequipped. If you want to unbuff the wizard, start them both naked and see what happens.
2. If they both start as they would in a campaign, seems fair. Lots of buffs, lots of equipment. Have at it.
The ruling almost always comes down to the fact that the wizard wins if he is given the same time to prepare as the fighter.
I enjoy all the friendly debate, however unless we get some builds out here, which I am a huge fan of, there is no telling.
I am more than willing to set up a Fighter V. Wizard arena if people would be interested in putting their money where their mouth is.
Just let me know :D
-JJ
Edit: In fact, it has been done. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=17323908&postcount=1
The link for the genesis spell.
It is a SRD divine spell (creation). So I'm not quite sure how the wizard gets it.
Wrong one. The Arcane version is the one we're talking about. The Divine version actually stops you from mucking with time traits. Note that there is also a Psionic version, which is weaker still (but has reduced costs).
@Irdak: It takes a LOT of Fighters to take on a well played Wizard. The Genesis/Celerity trick, for example, would allow a Wizard to take on literally endless Fighters, since he would be able to act arbitrarily quickly and even rest to regain spells. The Haunt Shift trick can make a Wizard invincible to the vast majority of Fighter builds, so if the Fighters couldn't get through that, it doesn't matter how many there are. And so on.
The level of the Fighter doesn't actually matter all that much unless he's got a Leadership gained cohort who's a threat to a Wizard, in which case being level 19 is actually enough, because a level 17 Wizard is potent enough to be a threat. He'd be at a disadvantage, but he could win, because Wizards have so many options that Wizard vs. Wizard duels are often decided by which one happened to use a strategy that the other wasn't ready for.
And finally, there are the "Big 5." They are the most powerful classes in the game, and they are Clerics, Druids, Artificers, Archivists, and Wizard. All of them are definitely a threat to each other, and all of them are in the same power tier.
JaronK
Hmmm - I wonder...how can a non-caster overcome the typical high-level wizard defense combo of foresight and celerity?
FOresight is a divination spell. MInd Blank is de riguer at level 20, and makes you invisible to foresight. There are mind blank items out there, from masks to Greenstone amulets, to 1/day casting toys.
If the wizard relies on Celerity, you have a celerity item. His goes off, yours goes off, you still go first. And if he's inside the A-M shell, it's too late for his contingency, etc to go off, anyways. Contingency does not 'detect' anything, which all the cheap wording tricks try to use. Something has to actually happen before a contingency goes off.
So much of spell abuse is about twisting the meaning of the words to the caster's advantage.
Someone also made the point that a wizard/20 without magic is a L20 commoner...and that is precisely the point. A Melee's job is to address his foe's strength and neutralize it. Becoming immune to magic vs a wizard is no different then becoming immune to fire vs a red dragon...except the wizard, unlike the dragon, has nothing to fall back on, and wizard lovers just hate the fact that unless they CAN get all their exploits off ahead of time, they are simply that absolutely vulnerable.
And more creatures should take advantage of it, you know? heh. Not taking advantage of it is complete and utter tactical stupidity.
Take away a melee's magic, and he can still take his bare fist and punch his way through an adamantine wall with power attack. He can take his greatsword and kill a level 20 wizard with one full attack action.
Furthermore, one has to realize that the 'adventuring mode' of the game caters to 'nova' encounters. Melees are 'realistic'...they can always, always perform when called on, they don't run out of power. That's why books are about melees and seldom about wizards, unless they change the rules and let the spellcasters do stuff all the time and never 'run out'. Running out of ammo is annoying in a novel...but is exploited to all ends by spellcasters when they run out of spells in an adventuring company. Things really start shifting when you start exploiting running out of spells, hitting when spell regenning...in other words, using the tactics you or I, in the real world, would be using against spellcasters.
But, no, no, you put a Nova class up against an 'all-day' class, and think it's going to be a fair fight without the latter actually having some brains?
==Aelryinth
Very Valid points that well sadly be forgotten when the NEXT Ftr Vs Wiz thread pops up. etc etc Wizards Limited Resources, etc, etc.
...
I still have my money on Warlock over a Fighter. :D
FOresight is a divination spell. MInd Blank is de riguer at level 20, and makes you invisible to foresight.
It would... if the wizard were casting it on the fighter.
has the fighter won in this thread yet? :D
Nope, nor in any of the other 9,001 threads.
Speaking of which, I'm not at all sure that a 20th level wizard CAN take out a 9,001th level fighter. There are some interesting absurdities that come to play at that point. Still, without appropriate gear, I doubt that fighter can find and follow and kill that wizard, either....
lol, good point actually, perhaps we should make a 9002nd thread? It'd be an interesting use of epic amounts of gold, trying to find a way to get to his shadow genesis.....I mean, thats a really powerful god you got right there....just...no spells yet :P
You don't lose your gear when Shapechanging, unless it can't fit on the new form.That is Wildshape that automatically melds all your gear. Magic gear resizes automatically by default, except for armor and weapons, and Solars are generally humanoid shaped. So you should get the use of your gear when Shapechanged into a Solar.
Also, you shouldn't lose spellcasting either. I also don't think you get spellcasting.
Solar also have Change shape as a supernatural ability, so if you Shapechange into one of those, you can become medium again if that's what you want.
It would... if the wizard were casting it on the fighter.
Also, Foresight is unaffected by Mind blank. Even if it was, it would hose the Fighter even more, because the Wizard could just cast Greater invisibility and be immune to See invisibility.
Also, Foresight is unaffected by Mind blank. Even if it was, it would hose the Fighter even more, because the Wizard could just cast Greater invisibility and be immune to See invisibility.
Foresight is an information gathering spell, and you can't gather information on someone shielded by a Mind Blank. What's the spell going to do, tell you something's going to happen from something it can't tell you anything about?
Detect Invisible is on the caster, not the warded. It doesn't fall into the range of spells Mind Blank protects, because it's not trying to gather information on the Blanked person...it lets you see something that is normally invisible. It's not doing anything mind-affecting or scrying based, either.
Now, a simple Non-Detection spell might well trump this, Depending on how you interpret the language (I wouldn't let it) but at level 20 we're just talkinig about a dc 20 Spot Check, anyways...or a Gem of True Seeing or Blindsight, or whatever. Plenty of ways to overcome invisibility.
==Aelryinth
Foresight's description says it gives warnings about danger and tips how to protect yourself. Nowhere does it target other creatures.
+1.
This use of the mind blank spell makes high-level combat way more even. And apart from AMF, this would then go to a whole family of spells or spell effects that block/obstruct whole schools of magic, like
- wall of force (almost all spells)
- true seeing (all illusions)
- protection from evil/good etc (all summons)
The big disadvantage of casters thus is that even if they can do x spells per day of this and that school, eventually some items that replicate just THAT ONE spell to obstruct them all will neutralise them completely (cube of force anyone?).
Mind blank is particularly powerful with a 1/day item since it shuts down that great advantage of casters in high level player: better divination and thus more knowledge about the enemy. I guess the item should cost around 50,000 gp and thus be available from around the time that mind blank comes up in the game for casters (say, level 15-16). And way before foresight.
But something where the arcane casters may be way ahead are the calling spells: the planar bindings and gate.
The planar bindings do not even cost XP (they cost nothing, in fact, when used with circle of protections). There is nothing that same level fighters could do against tons of such creatures bound in service for days at least with bindings and protecting the caster, or even the biggies at double HD called by casters. Or is there?
Similarly, casters have a familar that could also cast spells or use magic items like wands - thus providing sort of double/extra actions to the caster from level 1.
I think aelryinth is right about this mind blank interpretation
On what basis?
On what basis?
I too support Aelryinth ruling in that case. because:
This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected.
Foresight is divination spell which gives you sixth sense. But your sixth sense is divination effect that gives you warnings. Your sixth sense is blind to person with mind blank.
If Foresight would work against mind blank then it couldn't protect against wish information gathering either. I wish that i have sixth sense that shows me the place where that person with Mind Blank is...
I know you guys think it would help melee if that was how mind blank worked but...it isn't. Foresight does not specify how the "sixth sense" is accomplished but the way spells work is, you cannot become immune to a spell that does not target you, period.
to me it's that simple.
Conclusion: Aelryinth is Faeling at alt usage to support himself as no one else agrees with his falsehoods.
if this interpretation of mind blank were correct, then you could cast mind blank on yourself followed by superior invisibility and become totally undetectable, even to true seeing (also see invis, blindsight, tremorsense etc), in fact the only way to find you would be with metafaculty or a wraith's lifesense.
Or touchsight (psion3) or very high spot check or Clarity of vision skill trick or church inquisitor pierce illusion ability or any other non divination way to see invisible.
I know you guys think it would help melee if that was how mind blank worked but...it isn't. Foresight does not specify how the "sixth sense" is accomplished but the way spells work is, you cannot become immune to a spell that does not target you, period.
You cannot become immune to spell that does not target you, thats true, but you can become immune to effect of that spell. -> You cast shapechange and take a form of Red Dragon, your spell does't affect me i can't be immune to it, but i can cast something to make me immune to fire and it makes me immune to your new breath weapon.
You cannot become immune to spell that does not target you, thats true, but you can become immune to effect of that spell. -> You cast shapechange and take a form of Red Dragon, your spell does't affect me i can't be immune to it, but i can cast something to make me immune to fire and it makes me immune to your new breath weapon.
but this example just further proves our point. A dragon's breath weapon targets you by including you in its area, therefore you can become immune to it. Foresight only affects its recipient, there is nothing in the spell description which suggests otherwise.
but this example just further proves our point. A dragon's breath weapon targets you by including you in its area, therefore you can become immune to it. Foresight only affects its recipient, there is nothing in the spell description which suggests otherwise.
Shapechance is spell-> Dragon breath is effect of shapechance spell->Immunity to fire makes you immune to fire breath
Foresight is Divination spell->sixth sense is effect of foresight spell->immunity to divination information gathering effects makes you immune to that sixth sense.
Foresight spell targets you and mindblank doesn't stop you from casting it, but sixth sense you gain with it is divination based information gathering effect that gathers information from whole world and beyond and that information gathering effect is blocked by mind blank.
Mind Blank
Mind Blank
Abjuration
Level: Protection 8, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
sixth sense you gain with it is divination based information gathering effect that gathers information from whole world and beyond and that information gathering effect is blocked by mind blank.
You have absolutely no proof that it's an information gathering effect. Maybe it just enhances your body's natural senses. In fact, if we accept that a living being may have a sixth sense in the first place, it's quite natural for a spell to enhance that sixth sense.
Even if we say it's a form of scrying ( likely, since the above sounds more like Transmutation to me ) - you're effectively scrying yourself in the probable immediate future! Are you seriously saying I cannot detect the damage upon my body caused by a mind blanked person? For an example, if I have foresight running, and a mind blank'd person cast fiery-kaboom at me, I won't get the warning that my body is going to get burned?
No, Mind Blank doesn't protect against Foresight. It's not RAI, and it's not RAW.
but sixth sense you gain with it is divination based information gathering effect that gathers information from whole world and beyond and that information gathering effect is blocked by mind blank.
disagree, nothing in the description of the foresight spell supports this definition of how the sixth sense works. You're ascribing qualities to the function of the spell such as "information gathering from whole world and beyond" that the text doesn't support, it just says you recieve warnings of impending danger without elaborating further. While you might rule foresight works this way in your own campaign, that isn't how it reads by RAW.
You have absolutely no proof that it's an information gathering effect. Maybe it just enhances your body's natural senses. In fact, if we accept that a living being may have a sixth sense in the first place, it's quite natural for a spell to enhance that sixth sense.
Warning=Information
It doesn't matter if it is enchanted natural sense or what, if you get that information because of divination spell or effect Mind Blank blocks it.
"This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects"
RAW you just can't get any information with divination spell or effect= if in spell description there is word "divination" then spell or any effect of that spell doesn't give any information about mind blanked person. I think that is quite simple. "information gathering" is heavy wording because it includes every possible bit of information and "effects" includes every possible way of information gathering.
you're using the term "information gathering" in a very loose, and in my opinion incorrect sense to suggest that mind blank covers up any and all facts related to your person whether they directly target you or not. The designers intent is clearly that "information gathering" spells are those that directly provide information about your person specifically, like detect evil, scrying, discern location, etc.
Okay, so See invisibility and True seeing are both blocked by Mind blank then?
RAW yes, that is how it is written. House rules are different matter, but i see no reason to house rule foresight>mind blank.
you're using the term "information gathering" in a very loose, and in my opinion incorrect sense to suggest that mind blank covers up any and all facts related to your person whether they directly target you or not.
The spell block "information gathering by divination spells or effects." "Information gathering" is not defined in the rules. It is thus impossible to find an answer that will not be disputed. However, I feel that it is not clearly incorrect to suppose that it refers to gathering information in any sense, rather than in a very specific sense, and that it is a strict, literal reading, not "very loose."
no, because foresight only gathers information (in any sense) about its recipient. It warns you "you are about to be pierced by a rapier in between your third and fourth vertebrae, if you dodge to the right you may avoid it". Mind blank can't foil this kind of information gathering because it doesn't affect anyone except the recipient of the spell, just because you are immune to info gathering doesn't mean the subject of a foresight spell can't gather information about events that will affect himself because you are an actor in those events, if that was intent of the spell then it would state that. If you plan to stab someone with foresight up in the kidney, your mind blank spell does not block them from getting a warning about events leading up to the rupture of their kidney by a piercing object sufficient to help them avoid that outcome because your mind blank spell doesn't affect their kidney. Foresight doesn't provide any information about potential attackers besides that which is necessary to (possibly) avoid their attacks, therefore there is no basis to claim that the effect of a foresight spell "targets" anyone besides the recipient.
There are three wizards, Bob, John, and Tom. Bob and John plan to stab Tom in the kidney. John is protected by Mind Blank. Tom casts Contact Other Plane. According to me, if Tom asks "Does John plan to stab me in the kidney?" he would be attempting to gather information about Tom. If he asks "Should John's plan succeed, will my kidney be stabbed?" I would still believe that he would be attempting to gather information about John. If he asks "How many people plan to stab me in the kidney?" I would say that, the same way a scrying spell examining the area would see everything except John, the spell would see everyting except John, telling him about Bob and any other people with such plans, even though he does not specifically ask about John. Your previous answers lead me to believe that you feel that you agree with me on the first, but feel that the second, while the same save for phrasing, is only gathering information about his kidney, and the third is not actually asking about him, only a group in which he belongs, which is not the same. Is this true?
Okay, so See invisibility and True seeing are both blocked by Mind blank then?
This is a more difficult question. Both are divination spells, of course, but do they "gather information?" "Information gathering" is not defined by the rules, as I said above. When lacking a rules definition, you must turn to either common sense or a dictionary. Lacking common sense, I turn to a dictionary. When there is someone invisible in the room, See Invisibility gives you knowledge you would not otherwise have. This can include knowledge of their presence, location, size, gender, type, race, height, clothing, color, etcetera. According to my dictionary, this means that it is "gathering information." I admit that, as any situation dealing with a term not defined by the rules, it is not completely clear, but this is my opinion.
Person 1 agreeing with Aelryinth has 8 posts and registered this month. Further, most of his posts are also agreeing with Aelryinth or espousing the same sort of views. Person 2 only has a single post and registered this month, see above.
Conclusion: Aelryinth is Faeling at alt usage to support himself as no one else agrees with his falsehoods.
Unlike you, archrpwer, I have no alts on this board. Nice try, however.
Foresight can't tell you about the danger presented by someone protected by Mind Blank, because it can't tell you anything about that someone. It's literally that simple.
"I intend to attack the wizard!" I'm mind blanked...does Foresight go off? How? How's it reading what I'm going to do and therefore 'advise' the wizard on protecting himself? It's not like I told anyone else. It's informing him about me and my actions...which it simply is unable to do. Mind Blank exists precisely to stop this sort of thing from happening. You cannot seperate the recepient of the spell from the fact he is receiving information about other things and parties...information that FOresight simply cannot supply him about someone Mind Blanked.
"You are about to be stabbed through the 3rd and 4th vertebrae by a rapier" means that the spell has found out where you are going to be stabbed, when you are going to be stabbed, and by what you are going to be stabbed. If the person doing the stabbing is mind blanked, you just let Foresight supply information on his whereabouts, his intentions, and his equipment...none of which the spell can do, since it cannot gather the information in the first place.
Trying to divorce the gathering of information from the supplying of it is not an argument you can win.
As for the Detects and True Sight, they affect the recepient, and effectively 'reset the status quo'. They aren't revealing information, so much as causing obscurements to the senses to be ignored. Basically, they stop other spells from working on the recepient...which is exactly when Mind Blank does, if you think about it. Mind Blank doesn't stop the use of normal senses, and all True Sight allows is normal senses to override attempts to obfuscate things...not to reach beyond into superhuman levels Mind Blank is designed to foil.
Indeed, Detect Invisible could be seen simply as a Mind Blank directed solely at the status of 'invisibility'...it provides an immunity to the effect on the recepient of the spell. At least, that's how I've always visualized it...not as providing some 'extra sense'. Someone invisible can still Hide and be missed, and you can hide in shadows and not be seen by Detect Invisible, so the whole 'extra-sensory' aspect really isn't there...it's much more a 'ignore invisibility effects' spell then a 'find the invisible' spell...else, someone hidden and invisible would pop right up when the spell is cast, as you'd be 'detecting' their invisible state. But the spell description means you are simply ignoring the fact they are invisible...that's much different.
If you go the former interpretation, you'd be able to Detect an invisilbe person through a brick wall and hiding in shadows...clearly information gathering. In the latter, you are simply ignoring their invisible status...that's neutralizing invisibility, not infor gathering.
And Mnd Blank items exist in the game already. Getting ahold of them is not that difficult at high levels, and shuts down all that Will save "I control the Fighter" auto-schlock wizards with no imagination love to spit out.
==Aelryinth
There are three wizards, Bob, John, and Tom. Bob and John plan to stab Tom in the kidney. John is protected by Mind Blank. Tom casts Contact Other Plane. According to me, if Tom asks "Does John plan to stab me in the kidney?" he would be attempting to gather information about Tom. If he asks "Should John's plan succeed, will my kidney be stabbed?" I would still believe that he would be attempting to gather information about John. If he asks "How many people plan to stab me in the kidney?" I would say that, the same way a scrying spell examining the area would see everything except John, the spell would see everyting except John, telling him about Bob and any other people with such plans, even though he does not specifically ask about John. Your previous answers lead me to believe that you feel that you agree with me on the first, but feel that the second, while the same save for phrasing, is only gathering information about his kidney, and the third is not actually asking about him, only a group in which he belongs, which is not the same. Is this true?
none of these questions about John or the group which he is a part of would cause the spell to fail outright, regardless of mind blank, because Contact Other Plane has a target of "you". Doesn't matter if the spell potentially gathers information related a target protected by mind blank because Mind Blank can only protect you from spells or effects that have you as a target in the spells target entry.
As far as what answers you get, that's a little more complicated. If you are contacting a nondivine entity from the inner or astral planes, they would be unable to provide any answers regarding activities John conducted while protected by mind blank. If you contact a divine entity from the outer planes, it's a little more complicated. These entities still cannot pierce mind blank with normal scrying or spells etc, however, if you contact a diety that can use its portfolio sense to answer the question under the rules for that on page 28 of Dieties and Demigods, and/or can use Remote Sensing or the Divine Recall SDA to find out the answer, it can answer the question normally because Mind Blank fails to defeat divine abilities such as these.
Foresight can't tell you about the danger presented by someone protected by Mind Blank, because it can't tell you anything about that someone. It's literally that simple.
"I intend to attack the wizard!" I'm mind blanked...does Foresight go off? How? How's it reading what I'm going to do and therefore 'advise' the wizard on protecting himself? It's not like I told anyone else. It's informing him about me and my actions...which it simply is unable to do. Mind Blank exists precisely to stop this sort of thing from happening. You cannot seperate the recepient of the spell from the fact he is receiving information about other things and parties...information that FOresight simply cannot supply him about someone Mind Blanked.
"You are about to be stabbed through the 3rd and 4th vertebrae by a rapier" means that the spell has found out where you are going to be stabbed, when you are going to be stabbed, and by what you are going to be stabbed. If the person doing the stabbing is mind blanked, you just let Foresight supply information on his whereabouts, his intentions, and his equipment...none of which the spell can do, since it cannot gather the information in the first place.
but foresight doesn't gather information about the person protected by mind blank, it gathers information about the recipient of foresight. If the spell looks into the future and says "hey, looks like there is a puncture wound in his back between the 3rd and 4th vertebrae caused by a rapier thrust from 45 degrees behind him" that isn't gathering any information about the mind blanked individual, it is only gathering information about the subject of the foresight spell and extrapolating from that data about what he should do to avoid the injury.
If you think to yourself "I intend to attack the wizard", that's irrelevant for purposes of a foresight spell. What isn't irrelevant is what will actually happen in the future, as soon as you start to actually attack the wizard that creates a potential future event in which the wizard will be the subject of an attack, which foresight can then look ahead with virtual omniscience and see "yup, looks like 2.5 seconds ago he was the target of an lightning bolt which left 3rd degree burns on 75% of his body, if he ducked left and rolled behind that log he maybe could have avoided it," and then warns the wizard thusly. At no point is foresight gathering any information about the target of a mind blank spell, it is only gathering information about the future condition of the wizard and extrapolating warnings based on that data.
again, you're giving foresight information gathering qualities which is does not possess and then claiming that mind blank foils it based on those qualities. But foresight doesn't need to gather any of that information to do its job, it only needs to gather information about the future state of its target, and is thus unaffected by mind blank.
none of these questions about John or the group which he is a part of would cause the spell to fail outright, regardless of mind blank, because Contact Other Plane has a target of "you". Doesn't matter if the spell potentially gathers information related a target protected by mind blank because Mind Blank can only protect you from spells or effects that have you as a target in the spells target entry.
As far as what answers you get, that's a little more complicated. If you are contacting a nondivine entity from the inner or astral planes, they would be unable to provide any answers regarding activities John conducted while protected by mind blank. If you contact a divine entity from the outer planes, it's a little more complicated. These entities still cannot pierce mind blank with normal scrying or spells etc, however, if you contact a diety that can use its portfolio sense to answer the question under the rules for that on page 28 of Dieties and Demigods, and/or can use Remote Sensing or the Divine Recall SDA to find out the answer, it can answer the question normally because Mind Blank fails to defeat divine abilities such as these.
but foresight doesn't gather information about the person protected by mind blank, it gathers information about the recipient of foresight. If the spell looks into the future and says "hey, looks like there is a puncture wound in his back between the 3rd and 4th vertebrae caused by a rapier thrust from 45 degrees behind him" that isn't gathering any information about the mind blanked individual, it is only gathering information about the subject of the foresight spell and extrapolating from that data about what he should do to avoid the injury.
If you think to yourself "I intend to attack the wizard", that's irrelevant for purposes of a foresight spell. What isn't irrelevant is what will actually happen in the future, as soon as you start to actually attack the wizard that creates a potential future event in which the wizard will be the subject of an attack, which foresight can then look ahead with virtual omniscience and see "yup, looks like 2.5 seconds ago he was the target of an lightning bolt which left 3rd degree burns on 75% of his body, if he ducked left and rolled behind that log he maybe could have avoided it," and then warns the wizard thusly. At no point is foresight gathering any information about the target of a mind blank spell, it is only gathering information about the future condition of the wizard and extrapolating warnings based on that data.
again, you're giving foresight information gathering qualities which is does not possess and then claiming that mind blank foils it based on those qualities. But foresight doesn't need to gather any of that information to do its job, it only needs to gather information about the future state of its target, and is thus unaffected by mind blank.
You are gaining information about my actions as they affect YOU. This explanation is trying to seperate the giving of information from the gathering of it. You learned MB'd was going to throw a lightning bolt at you, by the simple fact a bolt was thrown at you, from place x at time Y. You CANNOT learn that, period - you've now learned someone else's actions, place and time. That future is effectively closed off to you, since revealing any information from that future is revealing information about MB. You aren't even aware that you're not aware of it...how cool is that?
Trying to dance around this giving of information by saying it does it indirectly isn't going to wash. You are gathering information from the future...what else are you going to call it? That information is including stuff on me and my actions..which you cannot do. Ergo, your Foresight is 'blind' to me, and all you've got is status quo.
Mind Blank is a fantastically powerful spell, and only divine level stuff, Epic, and ONE psionic ability trumps it. FOresight is NOT one of those effects.
==Aelryinth
Unlike you, archrpwer, I have no alts on this board. Nice try, however.
Faelryinth
Ignoring the rest of your post (I have better things to do than read your drivel), you're still mixing up alts even after being explicitly told who is who. Archerpwr (note the spelling) is on this account. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't suspect me of being in threads I'm not even reading (someone linked me after this post).
Thank you, and have a fael day!
You are gaining information about my actions as they affect YOU. This explanation is trying to seperate the giving of information from the gathering of it. You learned MB'd was going to throw a lightning bolt at you, by the simple fact a bolt was thrown at you, from place x at time Y. You CANNOT learn that, period - you've now learned someone else's actions, place and time. That future is effectively closed off to you, since revealing any information from that future is revealing information about MB. You aren't even aware that you're not aware of it...how cool is that?
so if I have mind blank up, and throw a dart with a suction cup on it at someone's forehead while they are the subject of a scrying spell, by this logic, that person will also disappear for purposes of the scrying spell as well, since seeing the dart hit them via scrying would give the scryer information about the person who threw the dart?
sorry, completely disagree. Mind blank does not cover up all evidence of your actions, it can only thwart attempts to directly target the caster with divination spells.
TT30: I rest my case.
You are gaining information about my actions as they affect YOU.
Actually, information gathering IS defined, loosely...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/gatherInformation.htm
IF you get hit by a lightning, the foresight warns you. It _specifically_ doesn't tell if it was a natural lightning or a malicious mind blanked wizard. You don't gain any magical information of that sort. If you mundanely look up and see a floating wizard, you can draw your own conclusions. You know NOTHING of the effect-creator's actions, but that doesn't mean you don't know there's an effect!
Effects perpetrated by a mind blanked character are not protected by mind blank.
Solid example: If a mind blanked character was lifting a goblin above their head, Arcane Eye would _still_ show that goblin floating in mid-air.
Ignoring the rest of your post (I have better things to do than read your drivel), you're still mixing up alts even after being explicitly told who is who. Archerpwr (note the spelling) is on this account. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't suspect me of being in threads I'm not even reading (someone linked me after this post).
Thank you, and have a fael day!
Plus
One.There is more than one person in the world who realizes you ([f]Aelryinth) have no idea what you are talking about and strives to get you to stop spreading your lies. I know, shocking isn't it?
Your serial trolling aside, I'd like to take this moment to inform you my 'cronies' had nothing to do with this.
I will also say this. Turtle boy thinks he has moves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QQvYSr7Vrc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LruAG2lwpYg
none of these questions about John or the group which he is a part of would cause the spell to fail outright, regardless of mind blank, because Contact Other Plane has a target of "you". Doesn't matter if the spell potentially gathers information related a target protected by mind blank because Mind Blank can only protect you from spells or effects that have you as a target in the spells target entry.
Mind Blank
Mind Blank
Abjuration
Level: Protection 8, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
Ya know, I never did say anything about the above poster = (f)Ael, but I find it quite telling he seemed to think I did. And what do you know, another user with low posts.
I merely took the time to deny association in advance. I continue to deny all affiliation, and I do not feel that it is "telling" that I do not want my opinions associated with his.
As for the Detects and True Sight, they affect the recepient, and effectively 'reset the status quo'. They aren't revealing information, so much as causing obscurements to the senses to be ignored. Basically, they stop other spells from working on the recepient...which is exactly when Mind Blank does, if you think about it. Mind Blank doesn't stop the use of normal senses, and all True Sight allows is normal senses to override attempts to obfuscate things...not to reach beyond into superhuman levels Mind Blank is designed to foil.
Indeed, Detect Invisible could be seen simply as a Mind Blank directed solely at the status of 'invisibility'...it provides an immunity to the effect on the recepient of the spell. At least, that's how I've always visualized it...not as providing some 'extra sense'. Someone invisible can still Hide and be missed, and you can hide in shadows and not be seen by Detect Invisible, so the whole 'extra-sensory' aspect really isn't there...it's much more a 'ignore invisibility effects' spell then a 'find the invisible' spell...else, someone hidden and invisible would pop right up when the spell is cast, as you'd be 'detecting' their invisible state. But the spell description means you are simply ignoring the fact they are invisible...that's much different.
They provide information that would otherwise not be possessed. If allowing visual reception of information that would not otherwise be received does not count as giving information, why do scrying spells meet the criteria?
again, you're giving foresight information gathering qualities which is does not possess and then claiming that mind blank foils it based on those qualities. But foresight doesn't need to gather any of that information to do its job, it only needs to gather information about the future state of its target, and is thus unaffected by mind blank.
Foresight's description says it gives warnings about danger and tips how to protect yourself. Nowhere does it target other creatures.
Foresight gives you information that you would not otherwise have in the form of warnings about a danger. So Foresight gives you information about a danger. Is this true? If I am a danger, is Foresight giving you information about me? "Thus, if you are the subject of the spell, you would be warned in advance if a rogue were about to attempt a sneak attack on you, or if a creature were about to leap out from a hiding place, or if an attacker were specifically targeting you with a spell or ranged weapon." The previous is a quote from Foresight. Foresight is a divination spell or effect. Is it agreed that, hypothetically, if Foresight gave you information about someone, then it would be potentially blocked by Mind Blank? Do you believe that when Foresight gives you a warning in advance that a rogue is about to attempt a sneak attack on you, it gives absolutly no information about what the rogue is about to do?
That said, if Foresight is warning you of danger, isn't it telling you that you might be injured? For example, it might not tell you that the Rogue will stab you, but it would certainly tell you that your body will be stabbed. And again, it's like the CA Ninja ability... which explicitly tells us that the divination simply fails to see the Ninja, but it will see everything around the Ninja.
So perhaps if the Wizard is Mindblanked and the Rogue is too, Foresight wouldn't work. Interesting.
None of this changes the fact that it's Wizards that can cast Mindblank, not Rogues or Fighters.
JaronK
None of this changes the fact that it's Wizards that can cast Mindblank, not Rogues or Fighters.
JaronK
Most important part of this side track.
Most important part of this side track.
Now I will sit back and wait for custom item whine. Then again, Weapons of legacy are good for things like Mind blank, but that's not all: Wizards could just get a legacy item with the Cunning quality and not give a damn about Mind blanks of any sort.
That said, if Foresight is warning you of danger, isn't it telling you that you might be injured? For example, it might not tell you that the Rogue will stab you, but it would certainly tell you that your body will be stabbed.
If you are fighting a group of fighters and a rogue jumps out of the shadows, you will not be flatfooted because of Foresight. If all it did was tell you that you were going to be stabbed, it would not help you in this situation, as you would assume a fighter was going to stab you. If it told you that someone was going to jump out of the shadows and stab you, it would be giving information about the rogue. I think. I am not certain.
None of this changes the fact that it's Wizards that can cast Mindblank, not Rogues or Fighters.
Most important part of this side track.
This I concede.
Now I will sit back and wait for custom item whine. Then again, Weapons of legacy are good for things like Mind blank, but that's not all: Wizards could just get a legacy item with the Cunning quality and not give a damn about Mind blanks of any sort.
Weapons of Legacy gimp the hell out of your character by the default rules, and of course it's pointless to discuss 'should bes' in a conversation about what is. It is possible to get Mind Blank via non custom means, but it's 120k on a cash strapped character. Yeah right.
Personally I'd use a chained Greater Dispel to deal with that. Which works like MDJ, except without the breaking your own stuff part. Shut off every item he has, then use one of the other standard actions in that round to shut him down. You know what to target via Perm Arcane Sight or something. Or just by hitting the obvious magic things like the eye in the middle of his freakin' head. Either way works.
Edit: No, you would not assume that. You would assume someone was going to stab you. Since there isn't some big obvious guy right in front of you you could easily detect without future sight it could not possibly be a Fighter, therefore it must be a stealth type such as a Rogue. Of course if you have Foresight you have Elemental Body and are therefore immune to SA. Unless he has Savvy Rogue, if it is a Rogue (or anyone else precision dependent) they can't actually hurt you. Well, unless you consider 1d6+1 hurting...
Not to mention the items get no save against the GDM and you can then grab the loot in tact.
Which is also the point.
Edit: No, you would not assume that. You would assume someone was going to stab you. Since there isn't some big obvious guy right in front of you you could easily detect without future sight it could not possibly be a Fighter, therefore it must be a stealth type such as a Rogue. Of course if you have Foresight you have Elemental Body and are therefore immune to SA. Unless he has Savvy Rogue, if it is a Rogue (or anyone else precision dependent) they can't actually hurt you. Well, unless you consider 1d6+1 hurting...
I was saying that if you were fighting a group of enemies and a rogue was hiding in the shadows that you were unaware of, you would not be considered flatfooted because of Foresight. If all it told you was that someone was to stab you, you would assume it was one of the enemies you were already fighting, and thus still not be aware of the hidden rogue. I admit rogues are not a serious threat to a high level wizard, however.
Do you believe that when Foresight gives you a warning in advance that a rogue is about to attempt a sneak attack on you, it gives absolutly no information about what the rogue is about to do?
yes, but it wouldn't provide information about the danger like " billy the elf rogue is creeping up the stairway and is about to sneak attack you with a +5 human bane dagger", the information provided is more like "you will be potentially fatally stabbed in the next round unless you take X type of action to prevent it", where X is something that is likely to help you avoid that specific danger. Notice that the second example makes no mention of the attacker-- all the necessary information to avoid the attack can be gained by peering into the future (aka foreseeing) of the recipient of the foresight spell and seeing the immediate effect(a large puncture wound appearing in his back and him lurching ahead and to the left from the force of the blow) and aftermath(lots of bleeding!) of him being stabbed.
JaronK
yes, but it wouldn't provide information about the danger like " billy the elf rogue is creeping up the stairway and is about to sneak attack you with a +5 human bane dagger", the information provided is more like "you will be potentially fatally stabbed in the next round unless you take X type of action to prevent it", where X is something that is likely to help you avoid that specific danger. Notice that the second example makes no mention of the attacker-- all the necessary information to avoid the attack can be gained by peering into the future (aka foreseeing) of the recipient of the foresight spell and seeing the immediate effect(a large puncture wound appearing in his back and him lurching ahead and to the left from the force of the blow) and aftermath(lots of bleeding!) of him being stabbed.
So we agree it would provide information about the danger, but I believe that the danger is the rogue and you maintain that it is internal bleeding? The spell description states "Thus, if you are the subject of the spell, you would be warned in advance if a rogue were about to attempt a sneak attack on you, or if a creature were about to leap out from a hiding place, or if an attacker were specifically targeting you with a spell or ranged weapon." A rogue is about to attempt a sneak attack on me. I am warned in advance. Is the spell providing any information whatsoever about the rouge about to attempt a sneak attack on me, or is it limited to providing information about the dagger? Further thought is nessicary. I can definately see the position, but it seems to me that it is regardless giving you information about the rogue you would otherwise not have. It does not tell you that the rogue is an elf of the rogue class named Billy, but it still provides information.
In other words, the fact it tells you almost nothing tells you everything.
... the "power" of deductive logic ...
[humor alert]
Modrons LN are immune to psionic "powers".
Slaads CN are immune to deductive logic.
D&D is tricky like that.
[/humor alert]
;)
If you use scrying spell against mind blanked person will you see clothes and weapons flying around?
A Mind Blanked monk couldn't be detected by divination, but Foresight would still tell you you're about to recieve a blundgeoning hit from whatever angle.
JaronK
So it appears to me that in every story all the kings are ex-fighters, nearly all. So all the fighter has to do is form a stable nation to which he may allocate funds to destroy the wizard. This can range from creating anti-magic propaganda, invading the wizard's country as to destroy him through attrition, or even hiring mage-killers on his behalf.
Does this work or is it too indirect?
Active buffs:
Shapechange (24 hr due to CM location)
Sign (cleric spell from a wand; easy to keep up)
Neverskitter (because you'll have plenty of actions either way)
Mindblank (why not?)
Assumed feats:
Improved init
Assumed equipment:
Belt of battle (because it's cheaper than a greater rod of quicken)
+1 Eager/+1 Warning staff
Luckblade (0 wishes)
Luckstone
We're looking at:
Shapechange dex + 9 from spells + 4 from feats+9 from equipment.
Now, considering our default shapechange form is a pit fiend, let's look at that.
27 dex +6 enhancement (item) = 33 dex or +11 mod
11+9+4+10=+34 init mod. On a one we have a 35. This means to have a chance to beat us the fighter has to get +16 init. That's actually not that hard, but that's a 1/400 case. In order to have just a 5% chance of beating the wizard at init the fighter needs to have greater than 33 dex and a total init mod of 20. Now, let's look at our fighter archer here (so as to give a reason for having such high dex).
38 dex (wood elf) = +14
+4 improved init
+1 warning weapon/+1eager weapon (drop at start of battle and draw bow with quick draw)
belt of battle
Can't really afford luckstone (just too expensive for the effect)
So we've got +27 init vs +34 init in the most probable case and the wizard gets a reroll.
Before the wizard's reroll comes into play we're at 77% chance for the wizard to win. Since the wizard gets two chances we'll just take the odds that the wizard fails both rolls (I know this is bad math, but it's an approximation anyways) for a roughly 95% chance that the wizard wins initiative.
Now, if we get into splat outside core (I only used MIC, SC, and core for this) then the wizard's advantage goes up even more due to higher dex human shaped forms.
So the wizard is out an immediate action after winning init 95% of the time. Know why this doesn't matter? Shapechange. Shift into a choker. Two standard actions. If fiend folio is in then we can grab another swift and move as well as other stats.
Celerity = suboptimal. Real wizards don't need it. They win initiative the real way or simply turn into dire turtles.
You also forgot that thing with the elves and familiars. Hummingbird = +8.
As for the king thing... eh. That's just meaningless fluff. Not to mention there's wizard kings too. And they're a lot scarier.
You forgot that the luck stone boosts ability checks. Initiative is an ability check. Increase all relevant numbers by 1.
You also forgot that thing with the elves and familiars. Hummingbird = +8.
My numbers should be right. Show me exactly where I'm wrong? As for elves and hummingbirds, hummingbird is dragon mag and elves are lame. Dwarf and human wizards are sooo much better unless we're pulling elf generalist domain wizard hummingbird shenanigans (which I have in the past, but if they aren't all used together dwarf, human, or something else is typically better). Note that I'm only using core + compendiums for that baseline. More splat obviously favors the wizard.
Actually, spells treat your gear as part of you... that's why you can Magic Missile someone who's behind the total cover of their Tower Shield. The shield is part of them, so the spell targets the shield bearer and hits them.
A Mind Blanked monk couldn't be detected by divination, but Foresight would still tell you you're about to recieve a blundgeoning hit from whatever angle.
JaronK
I would appreciate a page reference for this (not that I doubt it). The Tower Shield's description specifically mentions that you can target the holder by targeting the shield, and several spells (such as Nondetection and Reduce Person) likewise specifically mention it. It should work that way (and it probably does), but I do not remember ever seeing that statement.
Celerity = suboptimal. Real wizards don't need it. They win initiative the real way or simply turn into dire turtles.
I would not say suboptimal. There is a small chance the fighter will win initiative, and a seperate small chance that it will take the wizard two rounds to kill him. It is best to prepare for all contingencies, even when Astral Projected.
So it appears to me that in every story all the kings are ex-fighters, nearly all. So all the fighter has to do is form a stable nation to which he may allocate funds to destroy the wizard. This can range from creating anti-magic propaganda, invading the wizard's country as to destroy him through attrition, or even hiring mage-killers on his behalf.
Who likes rebellions? When you have Mindrape, Programmed Amnesia, and Dominate Monster, you do not have to admit to being king. When that king is overthrown, you prepare one of them again (unless you have Uncanny Forethought) and are back in anonymous control the next day.
Looking again, I see you did factor the +10 into the final number, you just never mentioned it anywhere else. Nevermind then.
Elves suck, but it's still a possibility to do even better.
A Mind Blanked monk couldn't be detected by divination, but Foresight would still tell you you're about to recieve a blundgeoning hit from whatever angle.
Problem is that you can continue that logic and destroy whole mind blank description with it and that is just beginging. If divination spell can make sense that can indirectly sense things that are impossible to sense with divination wish can do it too and with it word twisting is easier and in the end you will find god of stealth with your wish enchanced sixth sense.
But yes, 9th level spells do give you god like powers. That's just how it is.
JaronK
I would not say suboptimal. There is a small chance the fighter will win initiative, and a seperate small chance that it will take the wizard two rounds to kill him. It is best to prepare for all contingencies, even when Astral Projected.
It's a fourth level spell and prevents you from casting nerveskitter. It also has a chance to take your action if you fail to kill the enemy in the first action (which can be sidestepped by burning two feats or 300xp or a slot from a fourth level wand, but all of that is expensive).
Celerity is more trouble than it's worth. People that advocate using it know nothing about optimal resource management, probability, and contingencies.
Not really. You wouldn't be able to detect, for example, the Rogue who got close and saw your position. You wouldn't be able to detect the exact position of the Rogue either when he attacks, so while you're not flat footed, you still can't auto detect him, so you still don't know where he is.
But yes, 9th level spells do give you god like powers. That's just how it is.
JaronK
You're making a lot of assumptions about the wizard and rogue's skill checks and defenses. The whole sneaky ***** thing is WAAAAAY too variable to be discussing in this thread.
It's a fourth level spell and prevents you from casting nerveskitter. It also has a chance to take your action if you fail to kill the enemy in the first action (which can be sidestepped by burning two feats or 300xp or a slot from a fourth level wand, but all of that is expensive).
Celerity is more trouble than it's worth. People that advocate using it know nothing about optimal resource management, probability, and contingencies.
Celerity uses a fourth-level spell slot and an immediate action. It gives you a standard action. High level wizards can destroy the multiverse in a standard action. Besides, your wizard had a better initiative modifier than a fighter designed for initiative, not to mention a reroll, even without Nerveskitter. If he wins, he can destroy the multiverse. If he does not win, he can destroy the multiverse and be dazed for a round afterword. Otherwise, once in a great while, the fighter will get an action before he dies.
Celerity is more trouble than it's worth. People that advocate using it know nothing about optimal resource management, probability, and contingencies.
People that advocate using it know about action management, and know how to make their actions count. The fact that you don't get how to use it doesn't mean the rest of us are similarly incapable.
Often times, a single action is all you need to deal with the situation. Perhaps that means nailing that dragon with a Shivering Touch, or similar. In those situations, which are very common with well played Wizards, Celerity is just the ticket. In duels, which are basically rocket tag scenarios in most cases, Celerity is exactly what you need.
And yes, I assume that Rogues have a higher Hide check than a Wizard's Spot, and that a Rogue who's gone through the trouble of getting Mindblank would defend against more common detection methods through Darkstalker. That's basic logic.
JaronK
People that advocate using it know about action management, and know how to make their actions count. The fact that you don't get how to use it doesn't mean the rest of us are similarly incapable.
Often times, a single action is all you need to deal with the situation. Perhaps that means nailing that dragon with a Shivering Touch, or similar. In those situations, which are very common with well played Wizards, Celerity is just the ticket. In duels, which are basically rocket tag scenarios in most cases, Celerity is exactly what you need.
And yes, I assume that Rogues have a higher Hide check than a Wizard's Spot, and that a Rogue who's gone through the trouble of getting Mindblank would defend against more common detection methods through Darkstalker. That's basic logic.
JaronK
Celerity doesn't gamble just one standard action. It gambles all the actions you'd get in that round. You're passing up two standards or more by taking the drawback of celerity. Celerity is good when you get it or if you have immunity. The spell is not that good when shapechange and friends are in play.
I'm talking about action economy and probability. Assuming that your very first action will win is folly. Always have a backup plan.
Celerity uses a fourth-level spell slot and an immediate action. It gives you a standard action. High level wizards can destroy the multiverse in a standard action. Besides, your wizard had a better initiative modifier than a fighter designed for initiative, not to mention a reroll, even without Nerveskitter. If he wins, he can destroy the multiverse. If he does not win, he can destroy the multiverse and be dazed for a round afterword. Otherwise, once in a great while, the fighter will get an action before he dies.
See above. Neither of you know what the you're talking about. Hell, just look at some of the duels in the Myth thread. Celerity is overrated.
Edit: Because neither of you know what you're talking about let me lay it out for you:
My example above assumes worst case scenario for the wizard. Adding more books helps him. If you're going to assume PH2 then I'll assume sandstorm. Dire tortoise. End of discussion.
See above. Neither of you know what the you're talking about. Hell, just look at some of the duels in the Myth thread. Celerity is overrated.
Getting around the filters by misspelling swear words isn't helping your case.
Edit: Because neither of you know what you're talking about let me lay it out for you:
My example above assumes worst case scenario for the wizard. Adding more books helps him. If you're going to assume PH2 then I'll assume sandstorm. Dire tortoise. End of discussion.
...I actually specifically mentioned shapechanging into a Dire Tortoise earlier, and let's be clear on one thing: no matter how high your initiative score, only one thing beats the Dire Tortoise ability to act in the surprise round. That one thing would be Celerity on someone who can't be flat footed, since you can use that to beat the Dire Tortoise in the surprise round that doesn't otherwise exist.
Catch that? Only Celerity lets you not get instantly ganked by another spellcaster in Dire Tortoise form if you're not already able to act in the surprise round. THAT is why it's so powerful... it gaurentees that you get one action before the enemy, unless they too use Celerity. And if you know how to play a caster, that one action is all you need... you can, for example, cast Timestop in that one action.
JaronK
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Getting around the filters by misspelling swear words isn't helping your case.
...I actually specifically mentioned shapechanging into a Dire Tortoise earlier, and let's be clear on one thing: no matter how high your initiative score, only one thing beats the Dire Tortoise ability to act in the surprise round. That one thing would be Celerity on someone who can't be flat footed, since you can use that to beat the Dire Tortoise in the surprise round that doesn't otherwise exist.
Catch that? Only Celerity lets you not get instantly ganked by another spellcaster in Dire Tortoise form if you're not already able to act in the surprise round. THAT is why it's so powerful... it gaurentees that you get one action before the enemy, unless they too use Celerity. And if you know how to play a caster, that one action is all you need... you can, for example, cast Timestop in that one action.
JaronK
1) Read the thread title. Fighters can't cast shapechange.
2) Celerities cancel themselves out.
And no, your celerity doesn't cancel someone else's celerity, actually. Guess what - it works just like it reads. You cast celerity. Before your standard action (because I can interrupt your action, as per the spell description) I cast celerity. Now I take my standard action, and when I'm done you can finish your action. And then we move on. Really, it's not hard to figure stuff like this out. Reading the actual rules does help sometimes.
As to the whole foresight vs. mind blank thing, I'll accept that foresight is blocked by mind blank, due to the examples given in the text of the spell. And you know what? I don't care. Really, a Wizard doesn't need foresight to win initiative. Hell, a Wizard doesn't even need to win initiative. Go ahead, let the Fighter get his action first. I really, honestly, don't care.
Because a prepared Wizard will still win, regardless. A greater shadow contingency is free to cast, and works just fine. "If my enemy takes an action before me, I cast celerity." is a perfectly valid contingency specification. Hell, I can prepare multiple greater shadow evocations and as the last spell I cast in my time stop (which I cast using my celerityround) I can reapply my contingency. And I can do this as many times as I have 8th-level spells to burn (and spells I feel like sticking on a contingency). Go you, you won initiative, and I still get my time stop buff/summon round before you get to do anything meaningful. So, yeah, foresight is nice, but is absolutely not necessary to win.
Edit: I forgot contingency is limited to 6th-level spells. Contingencied time stop changed to contingencied celerity. Same end result.
1) Read the thread title. Fighters can't cast shapechange.
No, but Wizards do. That's why I was talking about a Wizard Shapechanging into a Dire Tortoise, then using Celerity just in case somehow the opposition got a chance to act.
The simple fact is that Celerity gives you a shot, and in an arena fight when you're a Wizard one shot is all you need to win. It's quite possibly the single most powerful dueling ability a Wizard has... guarenteed "I go first."
Wow, you reply directly after a post telling you not to use vulgarity masking ... by using vulgarity masking! That's kinda baffling, really.
And no, your celerity doesn't cancel someone else's celerity, actually. Guess what - it works just like it reads. You cast celerity. Before your standard action (because I can interrupt your action, as per the spell description) I cast celerity. Now I take my standard action, and when I'm done you can finish your action. And then we move on. Really, it's not hard to figure stuff like this out. Reading the actual rules does help sometimes.
As to the whole foresight vs. mind blank thing, I'll accept that foresight is blocked by mind blank, due to the examples given in the text of the spell. And you know what? I don't care. Really, a Wizard doesn't need foresight to win initiative. Hell, a Wizard doesn't even need to win initiative. Go ahead, let the Fighter get his action first. I really, honestly, don't care.
Because a prepared Wizard will still win, regardless. A greater shadow contingency is free to cast, and works just fine. "If my enemy takes an action before me, I cast celerity." is a perfectly valid contingency specification. Hell, I can prepare multiple greater shadow evocations and as the last spell I cast in my time stop (which I cast using my celerityround) I can reapply my contingency. And I can do this as many times as I have 8th-level spells to burn (and spells I feel like sticking on a contingency). Go you, you won initiative, and I still get my time stop buff/summon round before you get to do anything meaningful. So, yeah, foresight is nice, but is absolutely not necessary to win.
Edit: I forgot contingency is limited to 6th-level spells. Contingencied time stop changed to contingencied celerity. Same end result.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cancel
Main Entry:
1can·cel Listen to the pronunciation of 1cancel
Pronunciation:
\ˈkan(t)-səl\
Function:
verb
Inflected Form(s):
can·celed or can·celled; can·cel·ing or can·cel·ling Listen to the pronunciation of cancelling \-s(ə
liŋ\ Etymology:
Middle English cancellen, from Anglo-French canceller, chanceller, from Late Latin cancellare, from Latin, to make like a lattice, from cancelli (plural), diminutive of cancer lattice, probably alteration of carcer prison
Date:
14th century
transitive verb1 a: to destroy the force, effectiveness, or validity of : annul b: to bring to nothingness : destroy c: to match in force or effect : offset —often used with out d: to call off usually without expectation of conducting or performing at a later time
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
JaronK
JaronK
See? And you thought turtleing was weak.
JaronK
Turtling is weak when the whole point is to make the enemy pay attention to you, not ignore you to eat someone else. When it means going first and pressing your I win button, or at least getting enemies to do the thing you actually wanted them to do it's not so bad. That and AC is practically a non defense, whereas fun with Prismatic Sphere actually does block stuff you care about.
So basically Faelryinth is Doing It Wrong.
Wow, you reply directly after a post telling you not to use vulgarity masking ... by using vulgarity masking! That's kinda baffling, really.
And no, your celerity doesn't cancel someone else's celerity, actually. Guess what - it works just like it reads. You cast celerity. Before your standard action (because I can interrupt your action, as per the spell description) I cast celerity. Now I take my standard action, and when I'm done you can finish your action. And then we move on. Really, it's not hard to figure stuff like this out. Reading the actual rules does help sometimes.
As to the whole foresight vs. mind blank thing, I'll accept that foresight is blocked by mind blank, due to the examples given in the text of the spell. And you know what? I don't care. Really, a Wizard doesn't need foresight to win initiative. Hell, a Wizard doesn't even need to win initiative. Go ahead, let the Fighter get his action first. I really, honestly, don't care.
Because a prepared Wizard will still win, regardless. A greater shadow contingency is free to cast, and works just fine. "If my enemy takes an action before me, I cast celerity." is a perfectly valid contingency specification. Hell, I can prepare multiple greater shadow evocations and as the last spell I cast in my time stop (which I cast using my celerityround) I can reapply my contingency. And I can do this as many times as I have 8th-level spells to burn (and spells I feel like sticking on a contingency). Go you, you won initiative, and I still get my time stop buff/summon round before you get to do anything meaningful. So, yeah, foresight is nice, but is absolutely not necessary to win.
Edit: I forgot contingency is limited to 6th-level spells. Contingencied time stop changed to contingencied celerity. Same end result.
What exactly makes you think that a fighter cannot emulate exactly this through items?
What exactly makes the pro-wizard camp think that a fighter cannot have exactly the same boosted initiative as a wizard? Although I admit that the (highly optional I daresay) hummingbird familiar may provide the wizard with an edge here...
Ah, and for all those who wonder...I am truly myself....not aelryinth...or even TheAntiTroll making a strange case...:D
As an interim summary, I think so far fighter and wizard level 20 are surprisingly evenly matched. The better access to magic for the wizard probably is counterbalanced by the bigger vulnerability to losing that magic (that is, AMF tactics are more viable for the fighter).
All he's really doing is putting a sign on his back that reads 'Insert Orbs here' with an arrow pointing the way.
Also, custom items don't work with the AMF, and even if allowed are something like spell level * caster level * 2k. Do the math. It means that you're making a character for this sole purpose, and they're still failing hard because they do not have enough cash, nor do they enter into the Wish Economy to not care about cash.
AMF has a range of 10 feet centered on the caster. First Fighter boy needs to become the caster, then he needs to get within 10 feet and stay there using only mundane locomotion.
Not to mention he has to even find the mage, who might be flying around invisibly. And unless it is a permanent item, it takes an action to activate the AMF. So the fighter can move, then activate it (or vice-versa), and he's done for the round. If the mage has Tumble ranks or some way to block the AMF Line of Effect, he just moves away, or blocks it, and casts some "get away" spell, then nukes the fighter from orbit. Or turtles up. Or just gets bored and leaves.
=
=What exactly makes the pro-wizard camp think that a fighter cannot have exactly the same boosted initiative as a wizard? Although I admit that the (highly optional I daresay) hummingbird familiar may provide the wizard with an edge here...
The fact that Wizards can cast Celerity and thus go before Initiative, or turn into a Dire Tortoise and act in surprise rounds that don't exist... that is why the Fighter can't win the go first game. Also... Contingency. Initiative is really an afterthought in a duel where a Wizard is in play.
But if you really want to do initiative, Wizards can cast Nerveskitter and have Hummingbird Familiars, and Fighters can't.
As an interim summary, I think so far fighter and wizard level 20 are surprisingly evenly matched. The better access to magic for the wizard probably is counterbalanced by the bigger vulnerability to losing that magic (that is, AMF tactics are more viable for the fighter).
...no. AMF is way too expensive, way too easily countered, and way too short ranged to be seriously effective.
JaronK
What exactly makes you think that a fighter cannot emulate exactly this through items?
Wonderful. You can have a contingency (or twenty, with Craft Contingent Spell, assuming you spent the gold for them). What are you going to do with them that the wizard would care about? Please, enlighten us.
What exactly makes the pro-wizard camp think that a fighter cannot have exactly the same boosted initiative as a wizard? Although I admit that the (highly optional I daresay) hummingbird familiar may provide the wizard with an edge here...
What exactly makes the pro-fighter camp think that a wizard cares whether the fighter wins initiative? A fighter simply cannot deal with the kinds of defenses the wizard can employ on a constant basis, not even counting the buffs he casts each day.
Below is an example of one way a 15th-level wizard can keep himself safe.
First, he casts planar binding as many times as he feels like, calling a bunch of efreets. He makes the following offer: the efreets will use their three wishes per day to generate large amounts of money, gems, and random magical trinkets. He gets to keep two-thirds of this money, they get the rest, divided evenly amongst them. No efreeti would ever turn down a deal like this, because it's completely free money they couldn't make on their own. So, he now has nigh-infinite wealth.
Second, he casts lesser planar binding, calling a nightmare. He makes the following offer: the nightmare will provide him with a single strand of hair, and in return will be rewarded with whatever wishes and/or money it desires in compensation. The nightmare has no reason to turn down this bargain.
Third, he creates a simulacrum of the nightmare, using the hair he just acquired. He now has a completely loyal servant who can cast astral projection and etherealness at will as standard actions.
Fourth, he casts greater planar binding, calling a planetar. He makes the same offer he made to the nightmare, which the planetar has no reason to not accept. He then makes a simulacrum of the planetar. He now has a completely loyal servant who posseses a slew of spell-like abilities usable at will, plus 17th-level clerical spellcasting.
Finally, he casts greater planar binding and calls a pit fiend, making it the same offer he made to the planetar, which the pit fiend (again) has no reason to not accept. He then makes a simulacrum of the pit fiend. He now has a completely loyal servant who has greater teleport and invisibility usable at will, among other SLAs.
Now that he has everything assembled, he plane shifts himself, his familiar, and the three simulacrums to the astral plane. Once there, he has his nightmare cast astral projection on everyone except the pit fiend and the planetar. Now, the nightmare, the familiar, and the wizard are astrally projected with their bodies on the astral plane. He puts the three bodies inside a portable hole, hands it to the pit fiend along with a crystal ball with telepathy, and orders it to keep them safe until he returns, and to keep watch on him. He has the planetar climb in the portable hole with another crystal ball with telepathy, and orders it to defend the pit fiend if it gets in trouble. The wizard, nightmare, and familiar then project themselves to the material plane and go about their business.
Now, please demonstrate how a 20th-level fighter would get past such defenses.
Ah, and for all those who wonder...I am truly myself....not aelryinth...or even TheAntiTroll making a strange case...:D
As an interim summary, I think so far fighter and wizard level 20 are surprisingly evenly matched. The better access to magic for the wizard probably is counterbalanced by the bigger vulnerability to losing that magic (that is, AMF tactics are more viable for the fighter).
Past level 4 or so, the fighter has virtually no chance of threatening the wizard. Even up to that point, the wizard still has a very good chance of winning.
Antimagic field is completely irrelevant to the wizard. It doesn't deal with called creatures (and the wizard can bring in hordes of powerful outsiders if he really feels like it, which the fighter has no ability to cope with). It doesn't bypass things like wall of force, and it doesn't help him deal with actually getting to the wizard. If he has an antimagic field, then he isn't flying (unless he's a raptoran, and then he's slower than the wizard).
The fact is, every time people say that antimagic field shuts wizards down, it's because people assume the wizard is standing on the ground and lets the fighter get within 10 feet. No wizard walks anywhere past 12th level. Overland flight and phantom steed both allow the wizard to fly for hours at a time.
A fighter simply cannot deal with the kinds of defenses the wizard can employ on a constant basis, not even counting the buffs he casts each day.
Well, with the exception of Astral Projection and such, a ToB-enabled character (not sure if a standard fighter has the IL for this, though) in a sufficiently-wizard nerfing arena, winning init and wearing AMF, will, completely without any supernatural effects, hit-and-kill the wizard. With their fist, preferrably. ( outside core, the wizard might have greater ironguard running, after all... )
A Warblade could first go with Combat Rhythm, then enter Mongoose+TSS. While ignoring Hardness/DR.
Still, TK sphere + contingent teleport, and as a force effect, TK sphere blocks ethereal.. Shadow Jaunt goes with Astral, though... Teleport would work unless the attacker first, oh, throws a net enchanted with Dimensional Anchor over the wizard. Who hopefully isn't Gargantuan at this point, yet.
Of course, the wizard being mind blanked + greater/superior invisible makes things trickier, a bit... So, need a really good spot check or something.
Well, with the exception of Astral Projection and such, a ToB-enabled character (not sure if a standard fighter has the IL for this, though) in a sufficiently-wizard nerfing arena, winning init and wearing AMF, will, completely without any supernatural effects, hit-and-kill the wizard. With their fist, preferrably. ( outside core, the wizard might have greater ironguard running, after all... )
A Warblade could first go with Combat Rhythm, then enter Mongoose+TSS. While ignoring Hardness/DR.
Still, TK sphere + contingent teleport, and as a force effect, TK sphere blocks ethereal.. Shadow Jaunt goes with Astral, though... Teleport would work unless the attacker first, oh, throws a net enchanted with Dimensional Anchor over the wizard. Who hopefully isn't Gargantuan at this point, yet.
Of course, the wizard being mind blanked + greater/superior invisible makes things trickier, a bit... So, need a really good spot check or something.
So ... if we totally discount the best defense a wizard has (not actually being there), and then we proceed to ignore the variety of options he has for acting out of turn, and then we assume he has no long-duration effects that would make him undetectable and/or unapproachable, and then we assume he's alone and doesn't have allies nearby, and then we assume it's actually the wizard and not a simulacrum, or a clone possessed via magic jar ... then a versatile ToB-enabled character could conceivably threaten the wizard. Oh, and the wizard is still assumed to be standing on the ground, as usual in these "scenarios". Thanks for making the point so abundantly clear! :D
And just a nit-pick, the Shadow X line are Supernatural. So no Shadow Blinking with an AMF collar on. Most of the Shadow Hand discipline is supernatural, actually.
At that level, you could have a 40-hour overland flight running, and never go lower towards the ground than whatever is required for spotting creatures.
But, ToB characters can fly, too. Well, air walk, which is in fact FASTER if you get your base speed up.
Of course, this assumes that the non-wizard character is visible, too, and not Hiding with a +100ish modifier or somesuch....
if Craft Contingent Spell is in game, there's no guarantee that there isn't ...
contingency: If dead, and dimension locked, dispel dimension lock
contingency: if dead and NOT dimension locked, Teleport/shift to sanctum.
contingency: If dead and in sanctum, shadow miracle true rez / summon a solar you have a deal with.
A high level wizard becomes a programming exercise :P
Well, with the exception of Astral Projection and such, a ToB-enabled character (not sure if a standard fighter has the IL for this, though) in a sufficiently-wizard nerfing arena, winning init and wearing AMF, will, completely without any supernatural effects, hit-and-kill the wizard. With their fist, preferrably. ( outside core, the wizard might have greater ironguard running, after all... )
A Warblade could first go with Combat Rhythm, then enter Mongoose+TSS. While ignoring Hardness/DR.
Still, TK sphere + contingent teleport, and as a force effect, TK sphere blocks ethereal.. Shadow Jaunt goes with Astral, though... Teleport would work unless the attacker first, oh, throws a net enchanted with Dimensional Anchor over the wizard. Who hopefully isn't Gargantuan at this point, yet.
Of course, the wizard being mind blanked + greater/superior invisible makes things trickier, a bit... So, need a really good spot check or something.
So, if the wizard does not win initiative, despite having a better initiative modifier than you could have without much investment, does not use Celerity immediately after losing initiative while not being flat-footed because of Foresight, does not have Mind Blank and Greater Invisiblity, is not an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, does not have a Genesis demiplane with highly manipulated time trait, does not have hoards of Planar Bound creatures, does not have hoards of undead, is not Astral Projected, is not illusionary, is located by you, even though he is protected by Mind Blank and Invisibilty as often as not, does not locate you, despite casting divination spells each morning, does not erase you from existance in a plethora of other ways, and is in a "sufficiently-wizard nerfing arena," you might win. But you might lose, and you cannot do that with a fighter, you have to use ToB.
if Craft Contingent Spell is in game, there's no guarantee that there isn't ...
contingency: If dead, and dimension locked, dispel dimension lock
contingency: if dead and NOT dimension locked, Teleport/shift to sanctum.
contingency: If dead and in sanctum, shadow miracle true rez / summon a solar you have a deal with.
Oh, and you have large amounts of Contingent Spells, while I do not.
But you might lose, and you cannot do that with a fighter, you have to use ToB.
Or you could bring a spellcasting cohort. :D
plz?
Can somebody hit this thread with a finger of death?
plz?
This opens up an interesting question. Finger of death only affects living creatures.
Wisdom
Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.
Charisma
Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.
So, is this this thread capable of preceiving its enviroment in any fashion, as well as telling the difference between itself and others? If so, what creature type does it have? I would think aberration, construct, and ooze are most likely.
An ooze is an amorphous or mutable creature, usually mindless.
A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature.
An aberration has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three.
It is a mutable, usually mindless, artificially consturcted creature with a strange abilities and an alien mindset. So which is it? If construct, it would be non-living, and thus immune to Finger of Death. It is quite a conundrum. Did any wizards here prepare Contact Other Plane? Or does anyone have Uncanny Forethought or Spontaneous Divination? Until we are certain, we had better avoid making it angry.
Is it Super Effective?
the wizard if your playing by anything but 4.0 then wizard says whee!!!! and you die! celerity eats ur face and there are too many glitches too list. see treant monks giude to playing god.:Pno way in heck!
Despite questionable coherence, spelling, and grammar, I think that is is one of the more accurate of the posts so far.
Despite questionable coherence, spelling, and grammar, I think that is is one of the more accurate of the posts so far.
personally i thought his words reminded me of a cross between Albert Einstein and Jesus.
Originally Posted by vglcat View Post
no way in heck! the wizard if your playing by anything but 4.0 then wizard says whee!!!! and you die! celerity eats ur face and there are too many glitches too list. see treant monks giude to playing god.
Despite questionable coherence, spelling, and grammar, I think that is is one of the more accurate of the posts so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane_Ailurophile View Post
Despite questionable coherence, spelling, and grammar, I think that is is one of the more accurate of the posts so far.
personally i thought his words reminded me of a cross between Albert Einstein and Jesus.
i get that a-lot.
He's an lolcat. What do you expect?
while that's a new one, I have absoulutley no idea what a "lolcat" is but still
i'll take a complement whenever i can (witch is not to often
)vglcat is wise
wisdom score of 63 baby!!!!!
dats would be me
A lot of wizard power arguments based on wrong rules perceptions and underestimations of a fighter level 20.
The fighter can contingency just the same stuff as the wizard does. Celerity would be nice. Basically the same tricks the wizard has.:D
When a wizard loses initiative, he's in an AMF field and dies. In core, it's even a safer bet.
A 15th level wizard has about an even chance in combat I guess - much more than the 5th level version (what exactly makes you think that a wizard can easily beat a fighter at that level? Say, an archer fighter or an enlarged spiked chain tripper able to reach you with a charge from 80ft away? Combat is not something wizards are good at at low levels.)
Now, about that 15th level wizard.
It's strange that you mention planar bindings at all, since they are highly DM dependent to work in a way that a wizards likes them to. (you can check Treantmonk's guide if you like, he warns of that himself).
Then, the effreeti summoned to wish stuff for you will need a DM ignoring the wbl recommendations of the DMG (plus ignoring what the knowledge- planes check really does- how is the wizard ever going to know about the wish ability without the DM's approval?). So no Efreeti getting you infinite riches. And the fact that no-one of the wizard fan community objected to this, while promoting the usual funny catlol pictures to ridicule all opinions except their own speaks volumes imo.
Then, a simulacrum creature has only half the HD and thus only the abilities appropriate for those HD. It's up entirely to the DM to decide whether it can still use supernatural and spell-like abilities (its caster level is halved). And while a nightmare may be gullible enough to do what a wizard wants to make a simulacrum of it, pit fiends and planetars definitely not (CHR checks please!). And even in case you somehow trick them, their deities will smite you for offending them with mockeries of their near-most powerful servants. Ah, and btw since the simulacrum castings cost X.P. you are no longer level 20, but 19 and lose wbl accordingly.
Finally, the astral projection spell description strongly suggests that you can only astrally project from the prime material plane (and likely for outsiders their "home" plane is their respective outer plane). The RAI certainly does not include making easy copies of the wizard (or whole parties) to live funny adventures without any risks to them any more at high levels.
And the best part: all the 20th level fighter needs to overcome those illegal astral projections of simulacrums, familiars and the wizard is to move through them with an AMF up, since the astral cord than is severed. End of wizard (and his companions).
Now, one final thing on AMF: yes, at high level play it is tricky to use vs a highly mobile wizard. Still, it is not entirely inconceivable that the fighter uses an intelligent item that dimension doors him next to the wizard (at 20th level? no sweat), and the fighter uses a readied action to bring up the AMF. All possible already within core.
And a wizard using a phantom steed at high levels just begs for a magical arrow by a fighter destroying it immediately, even at a 1000 ft distance.
The fighter can contingency just the same stuff as the wizard does.
With enough money and a high enough UMD check, yes.
A 15th level wizard has about an even chance in combat I guess - much more than the 5th level version (what exactly makes you think that a wizard can easily beat a fighter at that level? Say, an archer fighter or an enlarged spiked chain tripper able to reach you with a charge from 80ft away? Combat is not something wizards are good at at low levels.)
Because I've actually played in arena boards regularly, and seen casters own fighters most of the time, even at low levels? Casters have encounter ending/screwing spells at all levels of the game, even 1st. So even then, it often comes down to who goes first.
And the best part: all the 20th level fighter needs to overcome those illegal astral projections of simulacrums, familiars and the wizard is to move through them with an AMF up, since the astral cord than is severed. End of wizard (and his companions).
Rules reference please. That sounds like made-up BS. There are only very specific things which cut the silver cord. AMFs aren't one of them.
Now, one final thing on AMF: yes, at high level play it is tricky to use vs a highly mobile wizard. Still, it is not entirely inconceivable that the fighter uses an intelligent item that dimension doors him next to the wizard (at 20th level? no sweat), and the fighter uses a readied action to bring up the AMF. All possible already within core.
Yeah, because that's about as common as wizards who use the Contingency and Time Stop spells. Even then, there are counters and no guarantees the fighter could win even using that stuff. If you're using off-the-wall specific items and tactics, the wizard can too. Let's say he wears a permanently shrunken 4000 lb iron dome as a hat which automatically unshrinks the moment the AMF hits him, covering him and blocking Line of Effect from the AMF.
. now basiclly the effect will be that the fighter floats into space while taking damage being fought by dream larva and other epic monsters while the wizard is safe in a-nother FRICKING PLANE. there is no way for the fighter to win. thats dungeons and dragons. fighters fall wizards win. also the wizard has many more broken combos that i can't list because there's SO F-ING MANY. i have seen builds were the wizard sits in another dimension and fires spells through a dimension door! DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE USELESSNESS OF THESE THREADS!!?!?!?!? IT WAS DETERMINED AT THE DAWN OF D AND FRICKING D THAT WIZARDS ARE BETTER THAN FIGHTERS! AND SO HELP ME THAT YOU PEOPLE CAN'T FIGURE THAT OUT THEN GOOD LUCK WASTING YOUR TIME!:headexplo 
:hoppingma also have a nice day and thanking for shopping at vgl mart.
:coolcthul :heeheeThe fighter can contingency just the same stuff as the wizard does. Celerity would be nice. Basically the same tricks the wizard has.:D
When a wizard loses initiative, he's in an AMF field and dies. In core, it's even a safer bet.
Again you assume the wizard is standing on the ground. There are multiple spells which give the wizard ways of flying; alter self/polymorph, fly, phantom steed, overland flight, and more. No wizard walks anywhere after level 12. Period. Phantom steed and overland flight both last hour/level. That's 12 hours of continuous flight. He likely doesn't spend that much time out actually adventuring.
Moreover, what spells are actually going to contingency? Celerity, really? 'Cause that doesn't get you anywhere. Time stop? Congratulations, you just dumped a boatload of cash on an effect that you're even more useless in than normal. Way to go. Shapechange would be your best bet, but one greater dispel magic and you're toast. If the wizard is nice and doesn't toss a Mordenkainen's disjunction at you.
A 15th level wizard has about an even chance in combat I guess - much more than the 5th level version (what exactly makes you think that a wizard can easily beat a fighter at that level? Say, an archer fighter or an enlarged spiked chain tripper able to reach you with a charge from 80ft away? Combat is not something wizards are good at at low levels.)
Archer fighter? Wind wall completely shuts him down. Glitterdust, grease, web, hold person, color spray, deep slumber, scare, and Tasha's hideous laughter are all Core spells of 3rd level or less that wreck fighters. That's not counting blink, displacement, alter self, fly, mirror imageand invisibility all being available to the wizard at that level as well.
Now, about that 15th level wizard.
It's strange that you mention planar bindings at all, since they are highly DM dependent to work in a way that a wizards likes them to. (you can check Treantmonk's guide if you like, he warns of that himself).
No, they aren't. The rules are very simple for calling creatures. With the proper spells in place, they can't go anywhere for days/level. All I keep doing is tossing gold at them until I beat them on the Charisma check to get their services. That, or I could be evil and bestow curse them until they take massive penalties on their checks. This isn't rocket science.
Then, the effreeti summoned to wish stuff for you will need a DM ignoring the wbl recommendations of the DMG (plus ignoring what the knowledge- planes check really does- how is the wizard ever going to know about the wish ability without the DM's approval?). So no Efreeti getting you infinite riches. And the fact that no-one of the wizard fan community objected to this, while promoting the usual funny catlol pictures to ridicule all opinions except their own speaks volumes imo.
Knowledge (the planes): (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)
Check
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).
In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.
For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.
A 15th-level wizard can easily have a Knowledge (the planes) check of 18 (ranks) + 9 (Int modifier) + 2 (competence bonus) = 29. With a 1, that's enough to learn three pieces of information about an efreeti (10 HD = DC 20 check). That's without spells. As to the WBL, that's a guideline. There is no rule saying "you can never exceed X wealth at Y level." Period. There's a "Hey, DMs, if your PCs have more than X wealth at Y level, then they'll be more powerful vs. CRs of their level. Watch out!" heads-up.
Then, a simulacrum creature has only half the HD and thus only the abilities appropriate for those HD. It's up entirely to the DM to decide whether it can still use supernatural and spell-like abilities (its caster level is halved). And while a nightmare may be gullible enough to do what a wizard wants to make a simulacrum of it, pit fiends and planetars definitely not (CHR checks please!). And even in case you somehow trick them, their deities will smite you for offending them with mockeries of their near-most powerful servants. Ah, and btw since the simulacrum castings cost X.P. you are no longer level 20, but 19 and lose wbl accordingly.
Show me where in the rules it states that simulacrum removes special abilities for any reason. I've provided quotes for all of this, so far. All you've talked about is "DM this" and "DM that". Congratulations, welcome to the CO boards. What a DM would or wouldn't do is irrelevant. Please show me where in the rules it says that a deity will smite the wizard when he makes a deal with an outsider, as well. 'Cause I haven't found that passage anywhere.
As to the Charisma checks, that's very easy to achieve. The easiest way to deal with this is to just kill them, and then take the hair. I'm assuming the wizard is nicer than this, though, and will actually negotiate with them instead. A pit fiend has a Charisma modifier of +8. A planetar has a +6. Let's assume our prospective wizard has a flat Charisma of 10. He's used wishes/tomes to boost it to +5 (since I've clearly outlined that I can in fact know about the wish ability of an efreeti, this is simple). That gets us up to a +2. Then, we'll have a +6 item, bringing us to a total of a +5 Charisma modifier. I would assume that an amount of treasure worth twice the average treasure for the creature would be enough to secure a +6 modifier on the check, but even if it isn't, that's fine. Touch of idiocy allows no save, and maximized would reduce their Int, Wis, and Cha by 6. So that drops them down to a +5 and +3, respectively. Moment of prescience is available at this level, and can grant me a +15 bonus on the opposed check. Thus, my total modifier would be +21, vs. their +5 or +3. A pale green ioun stone grants a +1 competence bonus on ability checks, among other things, and a luckstone grants a +1 luck bonus. That gets me to +23, beating the planetar (assuming he rolls a 20 and I roll a 2). Finally, geas/quest provides no save, and each day the target must make a Fortitude save or become sickened (in addition to taking 3d6 damage with no save). Given that I have 15 days, the DC would be 25 (assuming I don't have Greater Spell Focus (enchantment)). The pit fiend has a Fort save of +19. This means that he has a 25% chance to fail his save. Given 15 days, he is virtually guaranteed to fail at least one of them. A geas as simple as "Drink that glass of water there." is enough to trigger the effects. Sickened, he has a -2 penalty on his check, bringing him to a +3, which my +23 beats.
Assuming I don't get the +6 bonus from tossing piles of money at them, leaving me at a +17, bestow curse imposes a -4 penalty to all checks, which is an effective +4 for me, getting me up to +21. At this point, we'll tie on a two or greater (since a 1 is an auto-fail in this particular check). Of course, I could also buy an orange ioun stone, bump my CL up by 1, and beat him.
There, I've now shown one way that a 15th-level wizard can overcome the Charisma check. There are more, using different spells/items to raise my check and lower theirs, but it's pretty irrelevant. I've shown a way, and that's all that matters.
Finally, the astral projection spell description strongly suggests that you can only astrally project from the prime material plane (and likely for outsiders their "home" plane is their respective outer plane). The RAI certainly does not include making easy copies of the wizard (or whole parties) to live funny adventures without any risks to them any more at high levels.
Show me where in the spell description it has to be cast from the Material plane. The only reference to the Material plane at all is "You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation." and "...or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).". Neither "strongly suggests that you can only astral project from the prime material plane". But whatever, let's say you're right (not that I accept it, but that there are easier ways of dealing with this than trying to explain how to read text and derive logical conclusions from it). I astrally project from the Material plane. I then project a new body back to the Material plane, grab my now-comatose body and plane shift back. Now my comatose body is on the astral plane. Easy, wasn't it? From there, my plan goes the same way I outlined it above.
And the best part: all the 20th level fighter needs to overcome those illegal astral projections of simulacrums, familiars and the wizard is to move through them with an AMF up, since the astral cord than is severed. End of wizard (and his companions).
"Whee, lets continue to assume that the wizard is still walking, because if we don't we're useless!" Moreover, show me the rules that say it'll cut my cord. Dispelling the spell doesn't kill the caster, and supressing it temporarily certainly won't. At the worst, I'll get bounced back to the astral plane, and then I can just re-form on the material plane somewhere else.
Now, one final thing on AMF: yes, at high level play it is tricky to use vs a highly mobile wizard. Still, it is not entirely inconceivable that the fighter uses an intelligent item that dimension doors him next to the wizard (at 20th level? no sweat), and the fighter uses a readied action to bring up the AMF. All possible already within core.
After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.
Way to go! You've just placed yourself right next to the wizard and you can't take actions. Good job!
And a wizard using a phantom steed at high levels just begs for a magical arrow by a fighter destroying it immediately, even at a 1000 ft distance.
Really? 'Cause I coulda sworn wind wall was a 3rd-level spell. That I can cast via shadow evocation, no less. Oh wait, it is! So, no. Your archer is even more useless than your melee fighter. That, or, y'know, mirror image + displacement gives you an ~8% chance to hit per arrow. And that's if I decide to not shapechange into something that you just can't hit, like a shadow.
Edit: Fixed some typos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themistokles View Post
The fighter can contingency just the same stuff as the wizard does. Celerity would be nice. Basically the same tricks the wizard has.
When a wizard loses initiative, he's in an AMF field and dies. In core, it's even a safer bet.
Again you assume the wizard is standing on the ground. There are multiple spells which give the wizard ways of flying; alter self/polymorph, fly, phantom steed, overland flight, and more. No wizard walks anywhere after level 12. Period. Phantom steed and overland flight both last hour/level. That's 12 hours of continuous flight. He likely doesn't spend that much time out actually adventuring.
also just because he has contingency what would he set it to??????
