Items for a Samurai?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

tomasmans

Jan 29, 2012 8:53:34
He will be a Iaijutsu samurai based on gloom razor combos

Got any advices on items to get for him?
#2

vampireshado

Jan 29, 2012 10:41:03
Iaijutsu with gloom razor is really best with sneak attack in my opinion... You can get some massive damage rolls. But with an Iaijutsu Samurai?

I'm guessing he's stealthy so item wise I'd go with bracer's of the dark hidden (I think thats the name) which let you be invisible to darkvision and then something that gives you darkvision (which there are tons of) and something that lets you create darkness (even though darkness kinda sucks).

Since you are going gloom razor you should have a way to give yourself concealment. I'd suggest greater blink if you have access to that, but dont use regular blink. Because regular blink is awful unless you really like to run away from fights.

Item familiar would be a good feat to pick up. And any item that grants a bonus to Iaijutsu will be great.
#3

Tempest_Stormwind

Jan 29, 2012 14:44:18
You're probably overthinking things: you can trigger iaijutsu with Sapphire Nightmare Blade, no stealth required. (I believe I shared a sample build with you - it used that trick with Deep Impact to pretty much universally target an AC of 10+size, using iaijutsu and power attack to devastating effect in a style-over-substance build).

I really need to know more about your character to provide thoughts on this. For instance, what sort of samurai are you using (either of the actual Samurai classes, or something else reflavored), what sort of "combos" are you talking about, what's your starting level, and so on. 
#4

gargamella

Jan 30, 2012 5:17:38
Human Paragon
Human Paragon
Human Paragon
Samurai
Swordsage
Samurai
Swordsage
Swordsage
Iaijutsu Master
Iaijutsu Master
Iaijutsu Master
Iaijutsu Master
Iaijutsu Master
Iaijutsu Master
Swordsage
Iaijutsu Master
Iaijutsu Master
Swordsage
Swordsage
Swordsage

feats:
Adaptive Learning (Iaijutsu Focus)   Dodge, Evasive reflexes, Imrpoved Initiative
Skill Focus (Iaijutsu Focus), Quick Draw   
+2 to one stat   Combat Expertise
Ancestral daisho   
Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus - Diamond Mind), Quick to Act +1   
Shadow blade   Karmic Strike
 AC Bonus (Wis to AC)   
   
Weapon Finesse (Katana), Canny Defense (Int to AC)   Gloom Razor
Lightening Blade (Cha to Initiative)   
   
Mobility   Sidestep
Strike from the Void (Cha to each Iaijutsu dice)   
   
Discipline Focus (Insightful Strike - Diamond Mind)   Spring Attack
   
One Strike, Two Cuts   
Quick to Act +2   
   
Sense Magic 

we will start at lvl 6 or 8 with normal gold at that lvl
#5

Tempest_Stormwind

Jan 30, 2012 11:34:42
Level 6 and level 8 have very different gear assumptions - level 8 has over twice as much gold to play with.

Look into the Eager enhancement for your primary sword, and eventually wear gauntlets that are enhanced with Warning. These enhancements are both +1 equivalent and give serious boosts to your initiative score. Eager is better on the weapon you're using, as it gives bonus damage against flat-footed targets; Warning simply needs to be "wielded" to work, and you're always wielding gauntlets, so it's better if it doesn't take up space on your primary weapon.

With a build like that - as I said in the other thread you posted, under a different account - you will be suffering some serious multiple ability dependency. This means most of your wealth will probably go into +stat items. Don't look for toys if the fundamentals aren't covered.

Also, you do know that Shadow Blade will not work with katanas, right? It's Shadow Hand weapons only, which makes it a dead feat for you (this is the main reason I keep saying you will get more mileage out of Sapphire Nightmare Blade, especially if you use Warblade instead of swordsage - the higher attack bonus and faster recovery method will serve you better.). This will work with your wakizashi, as that's just a masterwork short sword. This means that you'll have to give up Canny Defense (since that requires you to hold a katana), or do the cheesy trick of holding a katana in your offhand and fighting with the wakizashi in your main hand (if you aren't attacking with the katana, it won't give you a TWF penalty). If you're doing this route, you can also possibly drop Combat Expertise, as it isn't required for anything and you won't be getting much milage out of a high Intelligence (assuming your skills are covered, which they probably aren't - Gloom Razor requires stealth skills, which are cross-class for samurai and iaijutsu master).

If you're dropping Combat Expertise, though, you can use Guerilla Warrior (it's in Heroes of Battle) to give you a cheap form of Adaptive Learning for both Hide and Move Silently, along with a further reduction in armor check penalties. The other alternative is to pick up Weapon Finesse - if you're keeping Shadow Blade, you'll need this to get the most out of it, since the Iaijutsu Master version only applies to katanas.
#6

gargamella

Jan 30, 2012 12:31:56
Thx for asnwering.
1) I'll go swordsage cose i like to have more tatticks to use in a single fight. I know your build is more efficent
2) I'll have enugh points on ability cose we will use a nice sistem and cose i'll get +2 with human paragon too
3) As I'd like to use shirt + kimono (for stile again) with this setup i'll add wis/dex/int to my ac... that's not so bad..
4) shadow blade and CE are both for prew. (one for gloom and one for Karmic Strike

Thx for advices on items btw
#7

Tempest_Stormwind

Jan 30, 2012 13:12:26
1) I'll go swordsage cose i like to have more tatticks to use in a single fight. I know your build is more efficent


You have more tactics than just your maneuvers known or readied. Similarly, those maneuvers will hit less often, and you'll have fewer hit points. Finally, swordsage is the only source of Wisdom dependency in this build: switching to Warblade gives you more intelligence synergy, which is already in use with iaijutsu master.
2) I'll have enugh points on ability cose we will use a nice sistem and cose i'll get +2 with human paragon too


That would have been very important to know. What are your ability scores as they stand? 
3) As I'd like to use shirt + kimono (for stile again) with this setup i'll add wis/dex/int to my ac... that's not so bad..


Compare to a simple mithral breastplate with the Guerilla Warrior feat I mentioned (the one that lets you keep pumping your stealth skills). That's well in the style of standard samurai armor (not even the great armor, I'm talking the lighter stuff) with +5 armor, +5 maximum Dexterity, 0 check penalty, and, being light armor, fully compatible with the swordsage AC bonus.

It does interfere with Canny Defense, but as I mentioned above, you might want to consider ignoring Canny Defense anyway. Seriously, unless you have 20 Intelligence - and in this build, the only things that Intelligence does for you are skill points (which you have plenty of anyway) and Canny Defense (which shows up late and relies on a weapon you can do without) - you will be better off with the armor and describing it however you want.

The main reason why, for instance, monks are considered a low AC class is because they need two ability scores to their AC to make up for not wearing armor at the lowest of the low levels. Armor is still easier to boost than ability scores, and will outstrip them very easily even in games where all your stats are 18.
4) shadow blade and CE are both for prew. (one for gloom and one for Karmic Strike


Karmic Strike requires Dodge, not Combat Expertise. You also qualify (via Evasive Reflexes substituting for Combat Reflexes) for the superior Robilar's Gambit feat (PHB2), which is like Karmic Strike but better in most ways. (Karmic's got worse prerequisites and requires them to hit you. Robilar's is available at a higher level and grants them a damage bonus as well, but triggers even if they miss.) Just throwing that out there, since you're probably better off with Karmic (since Robilar's won't show up for a long while).


The way I see it, you're trying to do two iaijutsu builds at once. (Both rely on Constitution, and Strength matters until your relevant Finesse ability kicks in).
-A stealth/swordsage Gloom Razor build that relies on Dexterity (Shadow Blade / Weapon Finesse), Charisma, and (distantly third) Wisdom, using very light armor and a wakizashi.
-An unarmored warblade (Sapphire Nightmare Blade) build that relies on Charisma, Dexterity (Katana Finesse), and Intelligence (warblade abilities and Canny Defense) in roughly equal amounts, using no armor and a katana.

I'd suggest picking one rather than trying to make a katana-using Gloom Razor build with multiple dead feats and reliance on all six ability scores. Once that's settled, we can suggest further items, particularly since your primiary defensive gear is going to be very different between these two builds.
#8

gargamella

Jan 30, 2012 14:16:07
Thx again for the fast answer.
For karmic strike:
dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/k...

For all the rest:
I'm not started to play yet, I know I will use 5d6 and get 3 of them for each ability score.
My prio will  be: Cha/dex and than wisd and i'm pretty sure i can have decent scores with this method.
 
I like the stealth/swordsage gloom razor build.
I know that making a katana goom razor build got some problems but i don't want to have a real "maxed" hero.
I make this build mostly for "style".
#9

Tempest_Stormwind

Jan 30, 2012 14:51:17
For karmic strike:


I stand corrected - I had OA open and was using that as a reference, where it didn't require Combat Expertise. It still doesn't change my overall argument (as neither Dodge nor Combat Expertise actually synergize with Karmic Strike, since they raise your AC and you want to be hit to trigger it).

Btw, you might want to remove that link; I don't particularly think WotC is forgiving about sites like that. (I still use it frequently.)

I'm not started to play yet, I know I will use 5d6 and get 3 of them for each ability score.
My prio will  be: Cha/dex and than wisd and i'm pretty sure i can have decent scores with this method.


Statistically, I think this will be approximately equivalent to 32 point-buy or so. I don't have time to crunch the numbers to be certain, but I can show you the general method for a simpler case and expand upon it later. Here's the demonstration on 4d6-keep-three, which works out to the 28-point-buy 15/14/13/12/10/8. Your method is 5d6-keep-three, which affects which die results are dropped.

32-point-buy is the benchmark for "high powered" characters, but even "high powered" characters tend to focus on two ability scores, usually relegating the remaining points to Constitution (if they aren't already prioritizing it) and then rounding out the other scores to "acceptable" levels (usually a 12-14 if they can spare the points (after 14, the costs go up faster than the scores do), or a 10 if they can't (to avoid the penalty)). Your build focuses on at least four (Dexterity, Charisma, Wisdom, and then Intelligence or Constitution), which is going to be problematic.

I like the stealth/swordsage gloom razor build.
I know that making a katana goom razor build got some problems but i don't want to have a real "maxed" hero.
I make this build mostly for "style".


Style and performance aren't mutually exclusive; picking subpar options does not necessarily equal better style. This is particularly true if you can simply describe things differently - your katana is a bastard sword as far as the rules are concerned, although it is called a katana.

In fact, as I'm fond of pointing out, D&D assumes you're playing a fantasy hero. Heroes need to be able to back up their boasts and banter with power. The classic example is Gandalf*: "You! Shall Not! Pass!" kind of loses all dramatic effect against that sort of foe unless you've got his degree of badassery.

Samurai are in a case similar to this. Bushido includes a virtue of complete sincerity - OA sums it up by saying that a samurai's word is his deed, that saying something means it is as good as done - as well as a virtue of polite courtesy (which means, among other things, that your strength speaks for itself). These essentially make samurai humble (despite not explicity listing humility as a virtue - one of the strongest contrasts between bushido and chivalry), which cuts down on heroic posturing. However, they also force samurai to follow through on their requests and deeds - failure means dishonor, and dishonor equals death. Thus, if your lord or your personal honor forces you to engage in a fight, you probably should have the power to back that up.

*
Okay, Gandalf isn't the best example, since Lord of the Rings is a very low-level world (Aragorn works out to around 5th level or so) and Gandalf is actually a Maiar, essentially a demigod cloaked in mortal form, which clearly puts him in a different power bracket. (Thematically in D&D, he'd be an outsider continually in humanoid form, without equipment, and barred from using any of the cleric spells that most such outsiders come with - perhaps Manwë or a similar Valar was not granting him the spells.) But the premise holds for more down-to-earth characters taking on more realistic threats as well.