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Jade Phoenix Mage Gestalt

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
quantumcruciform
May 30, 2008 12:06:52 Hey guys, pretty soon I'm going to be starting a campaign that we hope is going to take us from level 1 up through epic. We get to play gestalt characters, and I was flipping through Tome of Battle and thought that the Jade Phoenix Mage sounded like an interesting class to play.

I was wondering if you guys could help me with a build, as my characters usually tend to lack anything that stands out from a mechanics point of view. I don't need anything incredibly overpowered, but something functional and fun to play. We're already going to have a Warblade on the team doing his thing, so I was taking a look at starting with Swordsage. I'm not sure about what the best option for the casting class would be, though I assume wizard, suggestions welcome.

While we're gestalt our DM is regulating us to one prestige class at a time when we start to prestige. That is we can start one prestige class and continue to advance one base class per level. We also aren't allowed to "dip" into prestige classes, we either finish one completely, or we do two at the same time and bounce back and forth between the two prestige classes every other level. Sorry, I know that's a bit of a hinderance, but it's what I'm constrained to.

We have 85 points to distribute throughout ability scores. Like I said, we're starting at level 1.

As for a race, I'm currently thinking human for the extra feat, or Asamar for the wisdom bonus that would go well with the Swordsage (we'll take off some of the spell-like abilities in order to drop the level adjustment). Those are the two that came to mind first, but I'm far from fluent with the vast number of races in the game, so I'll take any and all suggestions.

Feats are probably what I'm worst at picking out, so some suggestions for those would be very much appreciated, as well as good maneuvers to go with them for any combination. I think my problem is that I don't get to sit and pour over the books very often because we keep them at a friend's house (where we play) so I don't think in terms of the rules and possible combinations as well as some other people do.

We've got most of the Complete Books (I think we're only missing Complete Mage) and of course core books, and Tome Of Battle, along with some others, but those are the main ones, really.

Thanks guys!
#2
joemama1512
May 30, 2008 12:26:39 I made an attempt at a JPM guide a few weeks ago. Check that thread for some info. It is not gestalt specific of course, so cannot help much there.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15855844
(then scroll to the top)

But it can at least give you a decent intro.
One big problem is the -2 caster levels of the JPM. With a gestalt, your BAB and HPs are covered by your other class typically, so a hybrid warrior/mage that loses caster levels may not be the way to go.

You are probably better off with a mainclass warblade or swordsage or crusader, and then go with a pure caster type mage.
Something like initiate of the 7 veil or the like, with a level of spellsword for the -Arcane spell failure.

I am NOT a gestalt expert though, so take this with a grain of salt.
#3
quantumcruciform
May 31, 2008 9:46:14 Thanks for the reply. I had seen and read that guide, and some other posts about Jade Phoenix Mages, and gone through them all as much as I could for ideas. But, I don't have the books handy, and haven't had a chance to read through ToB thoroughly yet, so I'm pretty much only going off of what I can find online.

I'm no expert on gestalts either. Actually, this is more or less my first one. I understand the idea behind it, but I'm far from understanding the complexities and nuances of how to make a good character using gestalt rules.

I'm not too worried about the caster level loss from the prestige class. Like I said, I'm not looking for anything crazy, just functional. We're a pretty big party and I'm pretty sure we have at least one other arcane caster to help out. The impression that I got from the Jade Phoenix Mage was that the spells helped to balance and improve the fighting aspect and maneuvers (please correct me if I'm wrong because I may want to look at other options in that case). I figured that characters based around this prestige class would be primarily melee, with a bit of extra.
#4
ranthanas2
May 31, 2008 10:33:42 I'm not sure JPM is even legal using the Gestalt rules - it's one of those classes like the Eldritch Knight which is basically advancing two different classes at once.

That said, the trick with the multiclassing here is that you want to avoid losing either BAB or caster levels because you are running the +1 caster level up the other side. And the Prestige Class to go with the Jade Phoenix Mage is the racial paragon (either human or elven). And the racial paragons aren't Prestige Classes so can be taken in conjunction with the caster classes. The leads me to the following unholy combination for the first eight levels:

1: Wizard 1/Rogue 1. You lose a point of BAB here and about 4hp - but gain masses of skill points.
2: Wizard 2/Paragon Human 1. Only one point of BAB dropped.
3: Wizard 3/Rogue 2
4: Wizard 4/Rogue 3. Nothing lost here - you're 1 point of BAB down but have skill points coming out of your ears.
5: Wizard 5/Crusader 1. By waiting this long you get to jump straight to second level maneuvers.
6: Swordsage 1/Human Paragon 2. Now we're just being silly. Still on the good BAB path (depending on DM interpretation of gestalt rules). You haven't dropped a caster level yet as the Human Paragon picks it up. And you get all the fun swordsage stuff.
7: Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Human Paragon 3 and you get to keep the BAB, the full caster, and get the JPM levels.
8+ Jade Phoenix Mage/Rogue. You're light on HP - but a full caster, a scary melee combatant, and with lots of skill and other rogue goodness.
#5
dm_death
May 31, 2008 10:59:57 If you're making Gestalt, find out if your DM will allow the fractional BAB and Save progression from UA, as well. That's the ONLY way to live...

I'm heading out the door right now, but I'll mull this over today and see what I can come up with...

laters
#6
loganic1
May 31, 2008 11:33:20 JPM does not advance two classes at once, it just happens to learn stances/manuevers while advancing a spell casting class.
Gestalt according to UA discourages, not disallows dual class advancing PrCs.
The main rule that people miss is that you can only take one PrC at any given level, but it seems like they house ruled to ignore that.

Gestalt is a alternate rule set anyways, so don't be picky about the details, because the individual implementation is dependent on the group, so ask first. DM might decide that dual caster advancing PrCs are disallowed because the rules discourage that or not. Ask the DM is usually the answer when it comes to DM.

+1 for fractional BAB. It might give an extra point.
#7
quantumcruciform
May 31, 2008 11:46:35 Ranthanas2: That looks interesting. I'll take a look at it. Human paragon is in UA right? What's the advantage to taking a level of Crusader and then a level of Swordsage instead of two of one or the other?

DM_Death: Thanks. Can't wait to see what you come up with. Unfortunately no, no fractional BAB or saves. DM says we're going to be powerful enough because we're already gestalt anyways.

loganic1: The DM didn't seem to have any objections when I mentioned looking at JPM as a possible future PrC, so I think that's ok. And no, as far as I can tell, the rule about taking only one PrC class at any level is still in effect. Actually, the DM specifically reiterated that rule to make sure we didn't break it. It's just that to discourage dipping, we have to stick a PrC out till the end and if we want to take two PrCs we can advance them every other level (with the off level being the second PrC). And, alas, no fractional BAB. Good idea for the suggestion though, thanks.
#8
bejik
May 31, 2008 12:26:01 I'd guess the main advantage to taking a level of swordsage and a level of crusader is that you get a lot more maneuvers and you can pick out a few really nice ones from each, also your crusader stuff will refresh on it's own in the background after use and then you can blow through the swordsage stuff while you wait. I'd suggest possibly going with, for the last 4 levels of that build, Unseen Seer and any combination of martial base classes that you care for.
#9
ranthanas2
May 31, 2008 12:34:32 Human Paragon is indeed in UA. The swordsage is for extra versatility and maneuvers. Not necessary - just me tweaking things. On second thoughts take the second Crusader level - I got confused between the advancement of the Jade Phoenix Mage and the Ruby Knight Vindicator.

My only worry is multiclassing Exp penalties (Wizard 5/Crusader 2/Rogue X). But they work weirdly with Gestalts and so are generally ignored anyway.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 quantumcruciform May 30, 2008 12:06:52	Hey guys, pretty soon I'm going to be starting a campaign that we hope is going to take us from level 1 up through epic. We get to play gestalt characters, and I was flipping through Tome of Battle and thought that the Jade Phoenix Mage sounded like an interesting class to play. I was wondering if you guys could help me with a build, as my characters usually tend to lack anything that stands out from a mechanics point of view. I don't need anything incredibly overpowered, but something functional and fun to play. We're already going to have a Warblade on the team doing his thing, so I was taking a look at starting with Swordsage. I'm not sure about what the best option for the casting class would be, though I assume wizard, suggestions welcome. While we're gestalt our DM is regulating us to one prestige class at a time when we start to prestige. That is we can start one prestige class and continue to advance one base class per level. We also aren't allowed to "dip" into prestige classes, we either finish one completely, or we do two at the same time and bounce back and forth between the two prestige classes every other level. Sorry, I know that's a bit of a hinderance, but it's what I'm constrained to. We have 85 points to distribute throughout ability scores. Like I said, we're starting at level 1. As for a race, I'm currently thinking human for the extra feat, or Asamar for the wisdom bonus that would go well with the Swordsage (we'll take off some of the spell-like abilities in order to drop the level adjustment). Those are the two that came to mind first, but I'm far from fluent with the vast number of races in the game, so I'll take any and all suggestions. Feats are probably what I'm worst at picking out, so some suggestions for those would be very much appreciated, as well as good maneuvers to go with them for any combination. I think my problem is that I don't get to sit and pour over the books very often because we keep them at a friend's house (where we play) so I don't think in terms of the rules and possible combinations as well as some other people do. We've got most of the Complete Books (I think we're only missing Complete Mage) and of course core books, and Tome Of Battle, along with some others, but those are the main ones, really. Thanks guys!
#2 joemama1512 May 30, 2008 12:26:39	I made an attempt at a JPM guide a few weeks ago. Check that thread for some info. It is not gestalt specific of course, so cannot help much there. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15855844 (then scroll to the top) But it can at least give you a decent intro. One big problem is the -2 caster levels of the JPM. With a gestalt, your BAB and HPs are covered by your other class typically, so a hybrid warrior/mage that loses caster levels may not be the way to go. You are probably better off with a mainclass warblade or swordsage or crusader, and then go with a pure caster type mage. Something like initiate of the 7 veil or the like, with a level of spellsword for the -Arcane spell failure. I am NOT a gestalt expert though, so take this with a grain of salt.
#3 quantumcruciform May 31, 2008 9:46:14	Thanks for the reply. I had seen and read that guide, and some other posts about Jade Phoenix Mages, and gone through them all as much as I could for ideas. But, I don't have the books handy, and haven't had a chance to read through ToB thoroughly yet, so I'm pretty much only going off of what I can find online. I'm no expert on gestalts either. Actually, this is more or less my first one. I understand the idea behind it, but I'm far from understanding the complexities and nuances of how to make a good character using gestalt rules. I'm not too worried about the caster level loss from the prestige class. Like I said, I'm not looking for anything crazy, just functional. We're a pretty big party and I'm pretty sure we have at least one other arcane caster to help out. The impression that I got from the Jade Phoenix Mage was that the spells helped to balance and improve the fighting aspect and maneuvers (please correct me if I'm wrong because I may want to look at other options in that case). I figured that characters based around this prestige class would be primarily melee, with a bit of extra.
#4 ranthanas2 May 31, 2008 10:33:42	I'm not sure JPM is even legal using the Gestalt rules - it's one of those classes like the Eldritch Knight which is basically advancing two different classes at once. That said, the trick with the multiclassing here is that you want to avoid losing either BAB or caster levels because you are running the +1 caster level up the other side. And the Prestige Class to go with the Jade Phoenix Mage is the racial paragon (either human or elven). And the racial paragons aren't Prestige Classes so can be taken in conjunction with the caster classes. The leads me to the following unholy combination for the first eight levels: 1: Wizard 1/Rogue 1. You lose a point of BAB here and about 4hp - but gain masses of skill points. 2: Wizard 2/Paragon Human 1. Only one point of BAB dropped. 3: Wizard 3/Rogue 2 4: Wizard 4/Rogue 3. Nothing lost here - you're 1 point of BAB down but have skill points coming out of your ears. 5: Wizard 5/Crusader 1. By waiting this long you get to jump straight to second level maneuvers. 6: Swordsage 1/Human Paragon 2. Now we're just being silly. Still on the good BAB path (depending on DM interpretation of gestalt rules). You haven't dropped a caster level yet as the Human Paragon picks it up. And you get all the fun swordsage stuff. 7: Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Human Paragon 3 and you get to keep the BAB, the full caster, and get the JPM levels. 8+ Jade Phoenix Mage/Rogue. You're light on HP - but a full caster, a scary melee combatant, and with lots of skill and other rogue goodness.
#5 dm_death May 31, 2008 10:59:57	If you're making Gestalt, find out if your DM will allow the fractional BAB and Save progression from UA, as well. That's the ONLY way to live... I'm heading out the door right now, but I'll mull this over today and see what I can come up with... laters
#6 loganic1 May 31, 2008 11:33:20	JPM does not advance two classes at once, it just happens to learn stances/manuevers while advancing a spell casting class. Gestalt according to UA discourages, not disallows dual class advancing PrCs. The main rule that people miss is that you can only take one PrC at any given level, but it seems like they house ruled to ignore that. Gestalt is a alternate rule set anyways, so don't be picky about the details, because the individual implementation is dependent on the group, so ask first. DM might decide that dual caster advancing PrCs are disallowed because the rules discourage that or not. Ask the DM is usually the answer when it comes to DM. +1 for fractional BAB. It might give an extra point.
#7 quantumcruciform May 31, 2008 11:46:35	Ranthanas2: That looks interesting. I'll take a look at it. Human paragon is in UA right? What's the advantage to taking a level of Crusader and then a level of Swordsage instead of two of one or the other? DM_Death: Thanks. Can't wait to see what you come up with. Unfortunately no, no fractional BAB or saves. DM says we're going to be powerful enough because we're already gestalt anyways. loganic1: The DM didn't seem to have any objections when I mentioned looking at JPM as a possible future PrC, so I think that's ok. And no, as far as I can tell, the rule about taking only one PrC class at any level is still in effect. Actually, the DM specifically reiterated that rule to make sure we didn't break it. It's just that to discourage dipping, we have to stick a PrC out till the end and if we want to take two PrCs we can advance them every other level (with the off level being the second PrC). And, alas, no fractional BAB. Good idea for the suggestion though, thanks.
#8 bejik May 31, 2008 12:26:01	I'd guess the main advantage to taking a level of swordsage and a level of crusader is that you get a lot more maneuvers and you can pick out a few really nice ones from each, also your crusader stuff will refresh on it's own in the background after use and then you can blow through the swordsage stuff while you wait. I'd suggest possibly going with, for the last 4 levels of that build, Unseen Seer and any combination of martial base classes that you care for.
#9 ranthanas2 May 31, 2008 12:34:32	Human Paragon is indeed in UA. The swordsage is for extra versatility and maneuvers. Not necessary - just me tweaking things. On second thoughts take the second Crusader level - I got confused between the advancement of the Jade Phoenix Mage and the Ruby Knight Vindicator. My only worry is multiclassing Exp penalties (Wizard 5/Crusader 2/Rogue X). But they work weirdly with Gestalts and so are generally ignored anyway.