Jedi Mind Tricks: For Low Level "Extended Core" Campaigns - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Jedi Mind Tricks: For Low Level "Extended Core" Campaigns

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
tleilaxu_ghola
Apr 07, 2008 1:39:55 First lemme clarify what I mean by "extended core". I'm referring to PHB, MM, DMG, PHB 2, and DMG 2.

So anyways, you're makin' a character, you want him to be the party face, you're willing to invest a feat, but that's about it -- I mean, you want him to kick ass in combat too, right?! Well, here's a trick for you. I mentioned this trick on a thread a while back, but its importance may have been lost in the fray and I didn't think it was that great either... until I actually used it at the table. This trick gives insane power for the level of investment.

Anyways, here's the trick:

Wanderer's Diplomacy + Halfling + Bluff Skill + Access to glibness via wand or cast by self: You don't need that much bluff, you really just need glibness. The insane +30 to bluff you get from glibness translates directly into a diplomacy check, thanks to Wanderer's Diplomacy. The diplomacy effect only lasts a minute, but the key thing is that it only requires a standard action.

Yes, that's right, make a huge bluff check, have it count as a diplomacy check for its effects, all as a standard action. No fancy prestige classes, no fancy Tome of Magic stuff, just a PHB 2 feat and a PHB spell. Now, the effects ARE temporary (duration 1 hour), but that RARELY matters when all you want to do is get you and your droids past the security checkpoint long enough so you can blast off the desolate rock you're on.

Important Limitations
You've only got a minute to work with here before the guy you just smooth talked goes one step down in his disposition towards you. So use it only when you can make a quick get-away. Like I said, it's ideal for getting past guards.
The person cannot be hostile towards you -- it won't work. So once you can make a DC 50 bluff check (not too hard with glibness) you've maxed out this feat's potential (that's the check go from Unfriendly to Helpful). This is not something you can in combat.

Note to DMs
You may or may not support the use of glibness in conjunction with this feat. That's your call, but I am of the opinion that this feat effect is in line with the intent of glibness.
The above "limitation" list is the primary reason why I find this trick permissible in my campaigns. Typically, I ban any attempt at abusing the diplomacy skill.

Now, if you wanna talk specifics, I recommend making a halfling beguiler with this. Int-based casting + party face are you MAD, TG? No matter, you can still dump charisma. Glibness will cover up that 10 cha, no problem. And it scales into epic levels, because Diplomacy is a static DC check. So the schtick that worked at fourth level will keep on workin' at 45th level.

Caveat: I have been away from these boards for close to a year now. So, uh, if this has been mentioned ignore this. For what it's worth I *did* search for the trick, but came up dry (except for the time I mentioned it a while back). The feat was mentioned in the bard handbook, but its importance was not highlighted nearly enough, in my opinion.
#2
x-codes
Apr 07, 2008 1:49:52 I think everyone is so disgusted with diplomonsters by now that they just don't care anymore.

Besides, once we got the "Jumplomancer" I think we had pretty much hit the wall in terms of inane yet still somehow working methods of making people like you.
#3
tleilaxu_ghola
Apr 07, 2008 2:03:47 Well, the real selling point for me as a DM with respect to this trick, was the fact that it was temporary. I didn't have to worry about my player accruing a massive army of minions or many of the other abuses associated with making fanatical followers.

Plus, although it's no jumplomancer (which I had to look up after you referenced it), it IS faster and it does require less investment. (Exemplar is basically a junk PrC for anything outside of CO, imo).
#4
phaedrusxy
Apr 07, 2008 2:08:14 Yeah, this is nice because I could see using it in a real game. It requires little feat investment, and it will let you pull off crazy stuff occasionally without totally ruining game balance. Most of the other "diplomonster" stuff should probably be on the TO board.
#5
llochlyn
Apr 07, 2008 4:04:31 Ahoy, welcome back.

Rest assured this is a good trick, as you and Phaedrus have outlined, it can be a "once in a while" thing, wich I think is nice and something that might be actually fun to play and roleplay.
#6
bozwevial
Apr 07, 2008 7:25:42 Yeah, I'd gladly let a player take this and still be awesome in combat than have everyone they meet going fanatic and following them everywhere. Do you think an Eternal Wand of Glibness would be good enough for occasional use?
#7
skydragonknight
Apr 07, 2008 7:49:46 "These are not the Druids you are looking for."
#8
tshern
Apr 07, 2008 10:40:59
Yeah, I'd gladly let a player take this and still be awesome in combat than have everyone they meet going fanatic and following them everywhere. Do you think an Eternal Wand of Glibness would be good enough for occasional use?

Too times a day is plenty, you probably don't need that high a check more often than that.
#9
piggyk
Apr 07, 2008 10:59:59 This would be excellent for infiltrating places, etc., but unless I'm missing something, it can't be used in combat, no? Since it requires that the target not be "Hostile"?

It's still a fun trick, and something I'd almost certainly consider were I playing a beguiler or bard, but the diplomancer builds were all designed to allow for diplomacy in combat, also...
#10
nanshork
Apr 07, 2008 12:25:21
It's still a fun trick, and something I'd almost certainly consider were I playing a beguiler or bard, but the diplomancer builds were all designed to allow for diplomacy in combat, also...

I really don't think this was designed to be a diplomancer, just an interesting trick in a character's arsenal.
#11
tsuyoshikentsu
Apr 07, 2008 13:41:02
This would be excellent for infiltrating places, etc., but unless I'm missing something, it can't be used in combat, no? Since it requires that the target not be "Hostile"?

Interesting fact: you don't HAVE to be a Halfling to take this feat. So be a half-elf, make sure your Diplo is high enough to get them not hostile, and bam.
#12
BloodDragon
Apr 07, 2008 13:56:28
Interesting fact: you don't HAVE to be a Halfling to take this feat. So be a half-elf, make sure your Diplo is high enough to get them not hostile, and bam.

Halfling or 4 ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive

So that's a 34 in Bluff/Diplomacy :D
#13
vicen_korel
Apr 07, 2008 14:03:06 and you could grab the Half-elf feat from races of destiny that lets you roll twice and keep the best roll.
#14
lurch_e_bean
Apr 07, 2008 15:32:00 I don't think this trick works. Glibness only gives a bonus to a specific kind of Bluff check.

You gain a +30 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words. (This bonus doesn’t apply to other uses of the Bluff skill, such as feinting in combat, creating a diversion to hide, or communicating a hidden message via innuendo.)

AFB, but I'm pretty sure using Wanderer's Diplomacy falls under "other uses of the Bluff skill." Sure they'll believe what you say, but it doesn't mean they care...
#15
hyfigh
Apr 07, 2008 17:14:17
I don't think this trick works. Glibness only gives a bonus to a specific kind of Bluff check.

AFB, but I'm pretty sure using Wanderer's Diplomacy falls under "other uses of the Bluff skill." Sure they'll believe what you say, but it doesn't mean they care...

I would have to disagree. You're using your bluff check to act like a diplomacy check. You're bluffing them into believing (convince another of the truth of your words) you're dealing with them diplomatically. That is to say it falls well within the bounds of the spells use.
#16
skydragonknight
Apr 07, 2008 17:55:18
I don't think this trick works. Glibness only gives a bonus to a specific kind of Bluff check.

Glibness does have some incredible uses though. In the middle of a poker game while under the effect of Glibness, my gnome bard said, "I'm sorry guys, but you really should quit now. This is the most incredible hand I've ever seen."

Even the suspiscious ones failed their Sense Motive and they all ended up folding.
#17
bozwevial
Apr 07, 2008 19:56:01
Glibness does have some incredible uses though. In the middle of a poker game while under the effect of Glibness, my gnome bard said, "I'm sorry guys, but you really should quit now. This is the most incredible hand I've ever seen."

Even the suspiscious ones failed their Sense Motive and they all ended up folding.

Glibness is one of the single most useful spells I've ever found. Out of curiosity, are there any others that grant such high bonuses on a specific skill?
#18
tsuyoshikentsu
Apr 07, 2008 20:20:26 No, but you get stuff like Moment of Prescience at the higher levels. Check my Divination guide in the Surrealdex, a lot of the skill-boosters fall into that.
#19
pryor
Apr 07, 2008 21:13:46 The duration of the effect, according to my copy of the PHBII, is only one minute. While that's perhaps enough time to convince someone to lend you their horse, you'd better move pretty quickly before they call the guards down on your glib self.

Still, a neat trick, and quite flavorful for a Beguiler-type.

Cheers,

Pryor
#20
tleilaxu_ghola
Apr 07, 2008 21:39:34
The duration of the effect, according to my copy of the PHBII, is only one minute. While that's perhaps enough time to convince someone to lend you their horse, you'd better move pretty quickly before they call the guards down on your glib self.

Still, a neat trick, and quite flavorful for a Beguiler-type.

And this is why one should never post while away from books, thanks for pointing out my error Pryor.

I'll add in the appropriate caveats to the OP shortly.
#21
Nathreet
Apr 08, 2008 0:01:21 The spell description for glibness specifically states that it gives a +30 to bluff checks for telling lies only. It does not give a bonus to other bluff checks. Epic fail.
#22
nanshork
Apr 08, 2008 0:07:45
The spell description for glibness specifically states that it gives a +30 to bluff checks for telling lies only. It does not give a bonus to other bluff checks. Epic fail.

This has already been addressed, read above.
#23
awaken_D_M_golem
Sep 24, 2008 17:53:50 bump
#24
banaticus
Sep 24, 2008 18:42:07
The spell description for glibness specifically states that it gives a +30 to bluff checks for telling lies only. It does not give a bonus to other bluff checks. Epic fail.

Obviously everything you tell them is a lie -- you're not really their friend, these are the droids they're looking for, they really are supposed to be arresting you, etc. Of course everything you're saying with this is a lie -- if it wasn't a lie, you wouldn't really need to go to all this trouble.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tleilaxu_ghola Apr 07, 2008 1:39:55	First lemme clarify what I mean by "extended core". I'm referring to PHB, MM, DMG, PHB 2, and DMG 2. So anyways, you're makin' a character, you want him to be the party face, you're willing to invest a feat, but that's about it -- I mean, you want him to kick ass in combat too, right?! Well, here's a trick for you. I mentioned this trick on a thread a while back, but its importance may have been lost in the fray and I didn't think it was that great either... until I actually used it at the table. This trick gives insane power for the level of investment. Anyways, here's the trick: Wanderer's Diplomacy + Halfling + Bluff Skill + Access to glibness via wand or cast by self: You don't need that much bluff, you really just need glibness. The insane +30 to bluff you get from glibness translates directly into a diplomacy check, thanks to Wanderer's Diplomacy. The diplomacy effect only lasts a minute, but the key thing is that it only requires a standard action. Yes, that's right, make a huge bluff check, have it count as a diplomacy check for its effects, all as a standard action. No fancy prestige classes, no fancy Tome of Magic stuff, just a PHB 2 feat and a PHB spell. Now, the effects ARE temporary (duration 1 hour), but that RARELY matters when all you want to do is get you and your droids past the security checkpoint long enough so you can blast off the desolate rock you're on. Important Limitations You've only got a minute to work with here before the guy you just smooth talked goes one step down in his disposition towards you. So use it only when you can make a quick get-away. Like I said, it's ideal for getting past guards. The person cannot be hostile towards you -- it won't work. So once you can make a DC 50 bluff check (not too hard with glibness) you've maxed out this feat's potential (that's the check go from Unfriendly to Helpful). This is not something you can in combat. Note to DMs You may or may not support the use of glibness in conjunction with this feat. That's your call, but I am of the opinion that this feat effect is in line with the intent of glibness. The above "limitation" list is the primary reason why I find this trick permissible in my campaigns. Typically, I ban any attempt at abusing the diplomacy skill. Now, if you wanna talk specifics, I recommend making a halfling beguiler with this. Int-based casting + party face are you MAD, TG? No matter, you can still dump charisma. Glibness will cover up that 10 cha, no problem. And it scales into epic levels, because Diplomacy is a static DC check. So the schtick that worked at fourth level will keep on workin' at 45th level. Caveat: I have been away from these boards for close to a year now. So, uh, if this has been mentioned ignore this. For what it's worth I did search for the trick, but came up dry (except for the time I mentioned it a while back). The feat was mentioned in the bard handbook, but its importance was not highlighted nearly enough, in my opinion.
#2 x-codes Apr 07, 2008 1:49:52	I think everyone is so disgusted with diplomonsters by now that they just don't care anymore. Besides, once we got the "Jumplomancer" I think we had pretty much hit the wall in terms of inane yet still somehow working methods of making people like you.
#3 tleilaxu_ghola Apr 07, 2008 2:03:47	Well, the real selling point for me as a DM with respect to this trick, was the fact that it was temporary. I didn't have to worry about my player accruing a massive army of minions or many of the other abuses associated with making fanatical followers. Plus, although it's no jumplomancer (which I had to look up after you referenced it), it IS faster and it does require less investment. (Exemplar is basically a junk PrC for anything outside of CO, imo).
#4 phaedrusxy Apr 07, 2008 2:08:14	Yeah, this is nice because I could see using it in a real game. It requires little feat investment, and it will let you pull off crazy stuff occasionally without totally ruining game balance. Most of the other "diplomonster" stuff should probably be on the TO board.
#5 llochlyn Apr 07, 2008 4:04:31	Ahoy, welcome back. Rest assured this is a good trick, as you and Phaedrus have outlined, it can be a "once in a while" thing, wich I think is nice and something that might be actually fun to play and roleplay.
#6 bozwevial Apr 07, 2008 7:25:42	Yeah, I'd gladly let a player take this and still be awesome in combat than have everyone they meet going fanatic and following them everywhere. Do you think an Eternal Wand of Glibness would be good enough for occasional use?
#7 skydragonknight Apr 07, 2008 7:49:46	"These are not the Druids you are looking for."
#8 tshern Apr 07, 2008 10:40:59	Yeah, I'd gladly let a player take this and still be awesome in combat than have everyone they meet going fanatic and following them everywhere. Do you think an Eternal Wand of Glibness would be good enough for occasional use? Too times a day is plenty, you probably don't need that high a check more often than that.
#9 piggyk Apr 07, 2008 10:59:59	This would be excellent for infiltrating places, etc., but unless I'm missing something, it can't be used in combat, no? Since it requires that the target not be "Hostile"? It's still a fun trick, and something I'd almost certainly consider were I playing a beguiler or bard, but the diplomancer builds were all designed to allow for diplomacy in combat, also...
#10 nanshork Apr 07, 2008 12:25:21	It's still a fun trick, and something I'd almost certainly consider were I playing a beguiler or bard, but the diplomancer builds were all designed to allow for diplomacy in combat, also... I really don't think this was designed to be a diplomancer, just an interesting trick in a character's arsenal.
#11 tsuyoshikentsu Apr 07, 2008 13:41:02	This would be excellent for infiltrating places, etc., but unless I'm missing something, it can't be used in combat, no? Since it requires that the target not be "Hostile"? Interesting fact: you don't HAVE to be a Halfling to take this feat. So be a half-elf, make sure your Diplo is high enough to get them not hostile, and bam.
#12 BloodDragon Apr 07, 2008 13:56:28	Interesting fact: you don't HAVE to be a Halfling to take this feat. So be a half-elf, make sure your Diplo is high enough to get them not hostile, and bam. Halfling or 4 ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive So that's a 34 in Bluff/Diplomacy :D
#13 vicen_korel Apr 07, 2008 14:03:06	and you could grab the Half-elf feat from races of destiny that lets you roll twice and keep the best roll.
#14 lurch_e_bean Apr 07, 2008 15:32:00	I don't think this trick works. Glibness only gives a bonus to a specific kind of Bluff check. You gain a +30 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words. (This bonus doesn’t apply to other uses of the Bluff skill, such as feinting in combat, creating a diversion to hide, or communicating a hidden message via innuendo.) AFB, but I'm pretty sure using Wanderer's Diplomacy falls under "other uses of the Bluff skill." Sure they'll believe what you say, but it doesn't mean they care...
#15 hyfigh Apr 07, 2008 17:14:17	I don't think this trick works. Glibness only gives a bonus to a specific kind of Bluff check. AFB, but I'm pretty sure using Wanderer's Diplomacy falls under "other uses of the Bluff skill." Sure they'll believe what you say, but it doesn't mean they care... I would have to disagree. You're using your bluff check to act like a diplomacy check. You're bluffing them into believing (convince another of the truth of your words) you're dealing with them diplomatically. That is to say it falls well within the bounds of the spells use.
#16 skydragonknight Apr 07, 2008 17:55:18	I don't think this trick works. Glibness only gives a bonus to a specific kind of Bluff check. Glibness does have some incredible uses though. In the middle of a poker game while under the effect of Glibness, my gnome bard said, "I'm sorry guys, but you really should quit now. This is the most incredible hand I've ever seen." Even the suspiscious ones failed their Sense Motive and they all ended up folding.
#17 bozwevial Apr 07, 2008 19:56:01	Glibness does have some incredible uses though. In the middle of a poker game while under the effect of Glibness, my gnome bard said, "I'm sorry guys, but you really should quit now. This is the most incredible hand I've ever seen." Even the suspiscious ones failed their Sense Motive and they all ended up folding. Glibness is one of the single most useful spells I've ever found. Out of curiosity, are there any others that grant such high bonuses on a specific skill?
#18 tsuyoshikentsu Apr 07, 2008 20:20:26	No, but you get stuff like Moment of Prescience at the higher levels. Check my Divination guide in the Surrealdex, a lot of the skill-boosters fall into that.
#19 pryor Apr 07, 2008 21:13:46	The duration of the effect, according to my copy of the PHBII, is only one minute. While that's perhaps enough time to convince someone to lend you their horse, you'd better move pretty quickly before they call the guards down on your glib self. Still, a neat trick, and quite flavorful for a Beguiler-type. Cheers, Pryor
#20 tleilaxu_ghola Apr 07, 2008 21:39:34	The duration of the effect, according to my copy of the PHBII, is only one minute. While that's perhaps enough time to convince someone to lend you their horse, you'd better move pretty quickly before they call the guards down on your glib self. Still, a neat trick, and quite flavorful for a Beguiler-type. And this is why one should never post while away from books, thanks for pointing out my error Pryor. I'll add in the appropriate caveats to the OP shortly.
#21 Nathreet Apr 08, 2008 0:01:21	The spell description for glibness specifically states that it gives a +30 to bluff checks for telling lies only. It does not give a bonus to other bluff checks. Epic fail.
#22 nanshork Apr 08, 2008 0:07:45	The spell description for glibness specifically states that it gives a +30 to bluff checks for telling lies only. It does not give a bonus to other bluff checks. Epic fail. This has already been addressed, read above.
#23 awaken_D_M_golem Sep 24, 2008 17:53:50	bump
#24 banaticus Sep 24, 2008 18:42:07	The spell description for glibness specifically states that it gives a +30 to bluff checks for telling lies only. It does not give a bonus to other bluff checks. Epic fail. Obviously everything you tell them is a lie -- you're not really their friend, these are the droids they're looking for, they really are supposed to be arresting you, etc. Of course everything you're saying with this is a lie -- if it wasn't a lie, you wouldn't really need to go to all this trouble.