Kensai imbuing unarmed strikes - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Kensai imbuing unarmed strikes

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
dandu
Jul 01, 2009 2:48:41 How would this work?

Would he be restricted to one type of unarmed strike, such as feet or fists, or would he be able to enchant all of his different unarmed strikes?
#2
dacman
Jul 01, 2009 8:42:01 I believe that the Kensai can only enchant one unarmed strike- only one fist, foot, elbow, head...but you can enchant both fists up to +5 if I remember correctly.
#3
jarrad
Jul 01, 2009 9:01:47 "The kensai chooses one of his weapons (it must be one for which he has the Weapon Focus feat) to become a signature weapon. Most kensai choose either a sword or bow for this weapon, but even a kensai's natural weapons can be chosen."

"The process for imbuing a kensai's natural weapons (such as his fists) is the same as for a manufactured weapon, except all of the kensai's natural weapons of one type are imbued at 100% of the cost + 10% per natural weapon. For example, a human kensai who has Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) may turn his fists into signature weapons for 120% of the XP cost.

A six-armed kensai with a bite and tail attack would have to choose between fists, bite, and tail and pay either 160% of the cost (for six fists) or 110% of the cost (for the single bite or tail). A kensai who imbues a particular type of natural weapon must imbue all his natural weapons of that type (so a human kensai with two fists must imbue both fists). It takes 24 hours for a kensai to imbue one type of natural weapon, regardless of how many actual weapons of that type he possesses."

Seems pretty clear. It shouldn't work that way, IMO, because you aren't getting extra attacks for having "two fists", and indeed "unarmed strike" =/= "natural weapon" (unless you're a monk) so this description seems really muddled to me.

If I were house-ruling it, I'd count "unarmed strike" as a single weapon, and other natural attacks (extra limbs used via Multiattack, tail, bite, whatever) as separate weapons. However, the RAW seem clear on the subject: the Kensai has to choose his his "natural weapon" such as feet, fists or head (even though according to the rules these are *not* natural weapons for, say, a human) and imbue only one.
#4
naresh
Jul 01, 2009 10:03:21 You can make two attacks with unarmed strikes per round I believe, you have 2 fists and use 1 to hit, so a full round attack would net you two unarmed strikes, of course with the usual TWF penalties
#5
dandu
Jul 01, 2009 10:38:36 The kensai in question is a Ranger/Monk/Fighter/Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest/Drunken Master/Kensai.

So you can only enchant one type of unarmed strikes then, such as fists (as given in the example?)

Does that mean if the fists were spell storing, each one would store a spell, or both of them store one spell all together?
#6
jarrad
Jul 01, 2009 10:49:48
The kensai in question is a Ranger/Monk/Fighter/Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest/Drunken Master/Kensai.

So you can only enchant one type of unarmed strikes then, such as fists (as given in the example?)

Does that mean if the fists were spell storing, each one would store a spell, or both of them store one spell all together?

It's anybody's guess, because the rules are already contradictory. Standard PC races mostly don't have natural weapons, but in the Kensai description they're calling "fists" natural weapons whereas the core rules would call the use of fists an "unarmed strike" and not make any distinction between fists, feet or head.

If I were ruling on it as a DM, I think that given you've got to "pay" extra to have both fists enchanted, you'd be allowed to put the spell-storing property on each one. However it'd be equally valid to say that "unarmed strike" is a single weapon and that you can only store one spell; because of the confusion between the Kensai description and the normal way of looking at attack types, the rules don't - as far as I can see - solidly support one interpretation or another.

Try the Rules of the Game - Unarmed Attacks articles and see if there's anything that might clarify the position in the way you want to argue it with your DM!
#7
risner
Jul 01, 2009 11:30:39
How would this work?

Would he be restricted to one type of unarmed strike, such as feet or fists, or would he be able to enchant all of his different unarmed strikes?

"his fists" limits you to just fists, not toes, butt, elbow, etc.

Several other posts also posted that they were calling fists natural weapons. I don't agree, since they talk about natural weapons and they add a special rule if you have "WF Unarmed Strike" to allow only fists (and no other type of unarmed strike) to the allowed weapon list. At no point did it seem to me they are saying Fists are natural weapons.
#8
hsien
Jul 01, 2009 13:33:32 Lets muddy the water further, my group allows it to apply to all standard unarmed strikes; note bite and tail are treated as seperate types of attacks and not "unarmed attacks."

Unarmed attack interpretation is from this reference:

SRD: Monk's Unarmed Strike
"A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full."

We only allow 1 Spell to be stored as it's not a specific body part but more of the entire body (characters energy/Chi??) that has the enchantment.
#9
dandu
Jul 01, 2009 14:48:19 Hm. So what would happen if someone applied Sizing to their unarmed strikes in your group?

(It allows you to change the size of the weapon as a swift action to Small, Medium or Large. Possibly even larger.)
#10
risner
Jul 01, 2009 15:03:46
note bite and tail are treated as seperate types of attacks and not "unarmed attacks."

By separate you mean they are Natural Weapons and not Unarmed Strikes? Then yes.
#11
jarrad
Jul 02, 2009 4:11:55
"his fists" limits you to just fists, not toes, butt, elbow, etc.

Several other posts also posted that they were calling fists natural weapons. I don't agree, since they talk about natural weapons and they add a special rule if you have "WF Unarmed Strike" to allow only fists (and no other type of unarmed strike) to the allowed weapon list. At no point did it seem to me they are saying Fists are natural weapons.

They say it, more than once, like here...

The process for imbuing a kensai's natural weapons (such as his fists) is the same [...]

...and here...

A kensai who imbues a particular type of natural weapon must imbue all his natural weapons of that type (so a human kensai with two fists must imbue both fists).

In what way are they not referring to fists as natural weapons?
#12
hsien
Jul 02, 2009 7:07:27
By separate you mean they are Natural Weapons and not Unarmed Strikes? Then yes.

Thats what I meant, thanks.
#13
risner
Jul 02, 2009 8:24:36
In what way are they not referring to fists as natural weapons?

In the way that any Prestige Class, even one that says "hey dude Unarmed Strikes are Natural Weapons" can't make a general rule that Unarmed Strikes are Natural Weapons because they are not listed as such in the PHB, DMG, or the MM. Unarmed Strikes are listed as Manufactured Weapons in the PHB.

The author of Kensai wanted to make sure a Kensai could use his Longsword, any of his Natural Weapons or his Unarmed Strikes (so long as he limited himself to fists) and they pointed this out wherever possible.
#14
dandu
Jul 02, 2009 8:49:46 The "such as" phrase leads me to believe you could also enchant your feet and go about roundhouse kicking people, though you may not be able to enchant your feet and fists.
#15
zambayoshi78
Jul 02, 2009 20:20:15 It might help if you see unarmed strike as being the equivalent of a 'slam' attack, which is not associated with a particular body part in the same way that, say, a bite or claw is.

If you let the kensai imbue his 'slam' (unarmed strike) it would only be the cost of a single weapon imbue and not 120% for two fists.

This makes sense as, as people have correctly pointed out, unarmed strikes can be made even when hands aren't free.

My 2cp.
#16
rungard
Jul 03, 2009 11:35:46 if you think it then Chuk Norris is a Kensai with "round kick" imbued weapon xD

maybe the intention was that you can "break" your kensai weapon or maybe sunder. if you lose one arm you lose one kensai weapon.

i think the unarmed strike is the whole body since you can atack with your knees or your elbrow

what happens with a unarmed strike metalines
#17
aelryinth
Jul 03, 2009 23:12:40 Unarmed strike and natural weapons are not precisely the same thing. The one actually includes the other.

A Marilith, for example, could make unarmed strikes using her tail. The damage for the tail would be replaced by her UA dmg...BUT, it would be 'flavor', just another part of her doing UA dmg.

Unarmed strike is a single attack sequence that can be made with any part of the body. If you choose to NOT use your entire body for Unarmed Strikes, you can take TWF penalties, since now part of your body is not available, and use the extra limb(s) for other attacks.

So, what you'd get for a normal human doing this, is the entire body is your 'primary hand' and your left hand is your 'off-hand'.

This is actually fairly correct. You'd be making a couple attacks with limbs other then your hands, but the majority of your attacks would be hands. It's likely your 'off hand' in this case is actually your main arm, and everything else just compliments it (i.e. you'll do your main jabs and hits with your main arm, and everything else is opportunity).

Probably the best way to handle this is for the kensai to 'imbue' his body (and not his fists) as a UA weapon, and then seperately do his 'main arm' as a secondary weapon. If he has snap kick, I'd probably let him imbue a leg, too.

==Aelryinth

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dandu Jul 01, 2009 2:48:41	How would this work? Would he be restricted to one type of unarmed strike, such as feet or fists, or would he be able to enchant all of his different unarmed strikes?
#2 dacman Jul 01, 2009 8:42:01	I believe that the Kensai can only enchant one unarmed strike- only one fist, foot, elbow, head...but you can enchant both fists up to +5 if I remember correctly.
#3 jarrad Jul 01, 2009 9:01:47	"The kensai chooses one of his weapons (it must be one for which he has the Weapon Focus feat) to become a signature weapon. Most kensai choose either a sword or bow for this weapon, but even a kensai's natural weapons can be chosen." "The process for imbuing a kensai's natural weapons (such as his fists) is the same as for a manufactured weapon, except all of the kensai's natural weapons of one type are imbued at 100% of the cost + 10% per natural weapon. For example, a human kensai who has Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) may turn his fists into signature weapons for 120% of the XP cost. A six-armed kensai with a bite and tail attack would have to choose between fists, bite, and tail and pay either 160% of the cost (for six fists) or 110% of the cost (for the single bite or tail). A kensai who imbues a particular type of natural weapon must imbue all his natural weapons of that type (so a human kensai with two fists must imbue both fists). It takes 24 hours for a kensai to imbue one type of natural weapon, regardless of how many actual weapons of that type he possesses." Seems pretty clear. It shouldn't work that way, IMO, because you aren't getting extra attacks for having "two fists", and indeed "unarmed strike" =/= "natural weapon" (unless you're a monk) so this description seems really muddled to me. If I were house-ruling it, I'd count "unarmed strike" as a single weapon, and other natural attacks (extra limbs used via Multiattack, tail, bite, whatever) as separate weapons. However, the RAW seem clear on the subject: the Kensai has to choose his his "natural weapon" such as feet, fists or head (even though according to the rules these are not natural weapons for, say, a human) and imbue only one.
#4 naresh Jul 01, 2009 10:03:21	You can make two attacks with unarmed strikes per round I believe, you have 2 fists and use 1 to hit, so a full round attack would net you two unarmed strikes, of course with the usual TWF penalties
#5 dandu Jul 01, 2009 10:38:36	The kensai in question is a Ranger/Monk/Fighter/Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest/Drunken Master/Kensai. So you can only enchant one type of unarmed strikes then, such as fists (as given in the example?) Does that mean if the fists were spell storing, each one would store a spell, or both of them store one spell all together?
#6 jarrad Jul 01, 2009 10:49:48	The kensai in question is a Ranger/Monk/Fighter/Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest/Drunken Master/Kensai. So you can only enchant one type of unarmed strikes then, such as fists (as given in the example?) Does that mean if the fists were spell storing, each one would store a spell, or both of them store one spell all together? It's anybody's guess, because the rules are already contradictory. Standard PC races mostly don't have natural weapons, but in the Kensai description they're calling "fists" natural weapons whereas the core rules would call the use of fists an "unarmed strike" and not make any distinction between fists, feet or head. If I were ruling on it as a DM, I think that given you've got to "pay" extra to have both fists enchanted, you'd be allowed to put the spell-storing property on each one. However it'd be equally valid to say that "unarmed strike" is a single weapon and that you can only store one spell; because of the confusion between the Kensai description and the normal way of looking at attack types, the rules don't - as far as I can see - solidly support one interpretation or another. Try the Rules of the Game - Unarmed Attacks articles and see if there's anything that might clarify the position in the way you want to argue it with your DM!
#7 risner Jul 01, 2009 11:30:39	How would this work? Would he be restricted to one type of unarmed strike, such as feet or fists, or would he be able to enchant all of his different unarmed strikes? "his fists" limits you to just fists, not toes, butt, elbow, etc. Several other posts also posted that they were calling fists natural weapons. I don't agree, since they talk about natural weapons and they add a special rule if you have "WF Unarmed Strike" to allow only fists (and no other type of unarmed strike) to the allowed weapon list. At no point did it seem to me they are saying Fists are natural weapons.
#8 hsien Jul 01, 2009 13:33:32	Lets muddy the water further, my group allows it to apply to all standard unarmed strikes; note bite and tail are treated as seperate types of attacks and not "unarmed attacks." Unarmed attack interpretation is from this reference: SRD: Monk's Unarmed Strike "A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full." We only allow 1 Spell to be stored as it's not a specific body part but more of the entire body (characters energy/Chi??) that has the enchantment.
#9 dandu Jul 01, 2009 14:48:19	Hm. So what would happen if someone applied Sizing to their unarmed strikes in your group? (It allows you to change the size of the weapon as a swift action to Small, Medium or Large. Possibly even larger.)
#10 risner Jul 01, 2009 15:03:46	note bite and tail are treated as seperate types of attacks and not "unarmed attacks." By separate you mean they are Natural Weapons and not Unarmed Strikes? Then yes.
#11 jarrad Jul 02, 2009 4:11:55	"his fists" limits you to just fists, not toes, butt, elbow, etc. Several other posts also posted that they were calling fists natural weapons. I don't agree, since they talk about natural weapons and they add a special rule if you have "WF Unarmed Strike" to allow only fists (and no other type of unarmed strike) to the allowed weapon list. At no point did it seem to me they are saying Fists are natural weapons. They say it, more than once, like here... The process for imbuing a kensai's natural weapons (such as his fists) is the same [...] ...and here... A kensai who imbues a particular type of natural weapon must imbue all his natural weapons of that type (so a human kensai with two fists must imbue both fists). In what way are they not referring to fists as natural weapons?
#12 hsien Jul 02, 2009 7:07:27	By separate you mean they are Natural Weapons and not Unarmed Strikes? Then yes. Thats what I meant, thanks.
#13 risner Jul 02, 2009 8:24:36	In what way are they not referring to fists as natural weapons? In the way that any Prestige Class, even one that says "hey dude Unarmed Strikes are Natural Weapons" can't make a general rule that Unarmed Strikes are Natural Weapons because they are not listed as such in the PHB, DMG, or the MM. Unarmed Strikes are listed as Manufactured Weapons in the PHB. The author of Kensai wanted to make sure a Kensai could use his Longsword, any of his Natural Weapons or his Unarmed Strikes (so long as he limited himself to fists) and they pointed this out wherever possible.
#14 dandu Jul 02, 2009 8:49:46	The "such as" phrase leads me to believe you could also enchant your feet and go about roundhouse kicking people, though you may not be able to enchant your feet and fists.
#15 zambayoshi78 Jul 02, 2009 20:20:15	It might help if you see unarmed strike as being the equivalent of a 'slam' attack, which is not associated with a particular body part in the same way that, say, a bite or claw is. If you let the kensai imbue his 'slam' (unarmed strike) it would only be the cost of a single weapon imbue and not 120% for two fists. This makes sense as, as people have correctly pointed out, unarmed strikes can be made even when hands aren't free. My 2cp.
#16 rungard Jul 03, 2009 11:35:46	if you think it then Chuk Norris is a Kensai with "round kick" imbued weapon xD maybe the intention was that you can "break" your kensai weapon or maybe sunder. if you lose one arm you lose one kensai weapon. i think the unarmed strike is the whole body since you can atack with your knees or your elbrow what happens with a unarmed strike metalines
#17 aelryinth Jul 03, 2009 23:12:40	Unarmed strike and natural weapons are not precisely the same thing. The one actually includes the other. A Marilith, for example, could make unarmed strikes using her tail. The damage for the tail would be replaced by her UA dmg...BUT, it would be 'flavor', just another part of her doing UA dmg. Unarmed strike is a single attack sequence that can be made with any part of the body. If you choose to NOT use your entire body for Unarmed Strikes, you can take TWF penalties, since now part of your body is not available, and use the extra limb(s) for other attacks. So, what you'd get for a normal human doing this, is the entire body is your 'primary hand' and your left hand is your 'off-hand'. This is actually fairly correct. You'd be making a couple attacks with limbs other then your hands, but the majority of your attacks would be hands. It's likely your 'off hand' in this case is actually your main arm, and everything else just compliments it (i.e. you'll do your main jabs and hits with your main arm, and everything else is opportunity). Probably the best way to handle this is for the kensai to 'imbue' his body (and not his fists) as a UA weapon, and then seperately do his 'main arm' as a secondary weapon. If he has snap kick, I'd probably let him imbue a leg, too. ==Aelryinth