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Kensai Stats

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
marcusfarcus
Aug 06, 2012 21:50:10 So a friend of mine wants to make a paladin11/kensai 7/exotic weapons master 2 (he's using the CW paladin alternate). Our DM is giving us 32 stat points and hes a human, so what is an optimal build? He's planning on using the divie might feat so charisma is of some importance. Any feat suggestions would also be nice
#2
Tempest_Stormwind
Aug 08, 2012 0:06:38
So a friend of mine wants to make a paladin11/kensai 7/exotic weapons master 2 (he's using the CW paladin alternate). Our DM is giving us 32 stat points and hes a human, so what is an optimal build? He's planning on using the divie might feat so charisma is of some importance. Any feat suggestions would also be nice

I can't tell what books are available or what level you're starting: these matter a lot for our suggestions.

Honestly, I wouldn't suggest going with so much paladin or any exotic weapon master. You can make paladin rock on its own (and while divine might is a common feat for this, you don't always need it: check out Andarious' wonderful A-Game Paladin build in my signature; honestly, it's one of my all-time favorites), and you can make kensai work quite well (you can use psionics to amp up your Concentration result, which makes Power Surge much more user-friendly, for instance; the signature weapon is good but you can build around other aspects of the class), but in general exotic weapon master isn't worth it. If you have the Tome of Battle available - and you should, it's one of the best-designed books for 3.5 and the easiest way to make melee work - a crusader would be the natural choice, since it's basically what the paladin should have been except actually competitive.

Here's the paladin handbook, and here's the kensai's handbook. Hopefully that's enough to start from.
#3
marcusfarcus
Aug 08, 2012 8:01:47 Ya I can see that the extra weapons master is overkill, I could really only effectively use the uncanny blow. Honestly, I originally intended for the build to be a smiter and as laughable as that sounds I thought that with power surge, the right feats and the bonus damage from EwM it would be decent. After little research though I found the fist of raziel prestige class, and it looks pretty good for a smiter. Would a paladin5/kensai4/EWM1/FoR8/kensai2 be a decent smiter build? And I have access to any book. Thanks!
#4
Tempest_Stormwind
Aug 08, 2012 11:10:04
Ya I can see that the extra weapons master is overkill, I could really only effectively use the uncanny blow.

No, I was saying that Exotic Weapons Master is not a good choice. I was not saying it was overkill. It sounds good, but look at it: A heavy, heavy Strength-focused character probably finishes with Strength 26ish if they still want points to spend in other areas (like Charisma - more on this later). That's a +8 modifier. You already get +12 damage with a two-hander from Strength alone. You'd be going out of your way for +4 damage with Exotic Weapon Master, and that's all that the level would get you.

Meanwhile, if you had just 18 Charisma after equipment, Divine Might would add the same amount of damage, and would give you extra turn attempts to power it. Not quite as reliable, but it's a lot easier to get an 18 than a 26.

EWM is not worth it.
Honestly, I originally intended for the build to be a smiter and as laughable as that sounds I thought that with power surge, the right feats and the bonus damage from EwM it would be decent.

Smite, with the actual Smite mechanics, is also not worth it - you rock for maybe two rounds per day, and then you lag. The only class that gets a decent number of smites is the Ordained Champion, and that's because it's powered by turn attempts.

If you want "smite" effects, play a Crusader. Devoted Spirit maneuvers are usable all day long, and while they don't follow the exact mechanics of Smite Evil, they work quite well as smites (i.e. decisive killing blows against unrighteous targets). The Heavy Crusader build in my signature is an example of this approach.
After little research though I found the fist of raziel prestige class, and it looks pretty good for a smiter. Would a paladin5/kensai4/EWM1/FoR8/kensai2 be a decent smiter build?

For maybe three rounds per day.

Honestly, you can easily out-damage smites using Power Attack, and that's usable all day, every day, against every foe (except those with the Elusive Target feat, which is hard to qualify for).
And I have access to any book. Thanks!

But what's your starting level? That's more important here.

Without more information, I'd just say play a crusader.
#5
marcusfarcus
Aug 08, 2012 12:28:36 Starting at level one. What about the Hellreaver? He has healing, good defensive skills, a smite like ability and it all refreshes each encounter. He kind of matches what I wanted with the earlier build-but I'm not sure what to build into him with.
#6
Tempest_Stormwind
Aug 08, 2012 15:08:26
Starting at level one. What about the Hellreaver? He has healing, good defensive skills, a smite like ability and it all refreshes each encounter. He kind of matches what I wanted with the earlier build-but I'm not sure what to build into him with.

That's the kind of change you'd need to get the raw paladin working as intended. It's kind of awkward, but from what I can tell it might still work.

That said, I still think the crusader is better in general - especially because there's more ways to "smite" than "add Charisma to the attack roll and add level to damage roll". (Note that virtually all of the Holy Fury abilities are very similar to what a crusader can already do - Holy Fury itself mirrors Foehammer and Mountain Hammer, Furious Strike mirrors just about every bonus-damage strike, Divine Succor mirrors the Crusader's Strike line of attacks, Divine Shield is a weak excuse for Shield Block, and Heroic Sacrifice is a weak excuse for crusader maneuver recovery. Only Call to Judgement is unique, while Divine Resolve and Divine Retribution mirrors maneuvers a crusader normally doesn't get (respectively the Diamond Mind counters and Feral Death Blow). Furthermore, the Holy Fury abilities are essentially worthless against unaligned foes and several cease to work against non-Outsiders; these aren't issues with the crusader.) You can also start doing things similar to this from level 1 - and if you want, nothing stops you from taking Crusader into Hellreaver. Due to the way ToB multiclassing works, just taking the occasional Crusader level is all that's needed to keep your maneuvers up to par.
#7
aelryinth
Aug 08, 2012 20:41:19 I'd suggest using the Pathfinder Paladin, which makes Smites really, really rock, but I suspect that's one book you cannot use!

==Aelryinth
#8
Andarious-Rosethorn
Aug 09, 2012 21:24:11
Only Call to Judgement is unique, while Divine Resolve and Divine Retribution mirrors maneuvers a crusader normally doesn't get (respectively the Diamond Mind counters and Feral Death Blow).

With the exception of the unique ability, I can post a build on how to make a Crusader with Divine casting that can also use Diamond Mind Counters and Feral Death Blow (as could Tempest or many others I'm sure). It would use cleric spells (up to 6th) and maneuvers up to 9th from virtually any school, easily. The build matures late but is playable from 1 and solid by 8 or so.

Thematically this fits the character archetype you're talking about. A dedicated defendor of Law, Justice and or Good that can cast spells to match. The only issue is that technically it requires a Greyhawk themed Wee Jas worshiping PRC (dedicated to the goddess of death and magic). Alignment wise you'd need to be LN/LG/LE or just N (most are LN, but LG or LE are doable, N's a bit weird). If it's not an Eberron campaign then you may have issues depending on if your DM allows a refluff or other adjustment to Ruby Knight Vindicator.

If this is something you're interested in for a well optimized and simple to play and build martial/divine gish I can post details on the build.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 marcusfarcus Aug 06, 2012 21:50:10	So a friend of mine wants to make a paladin11/kensai 7/exotic weapons master 2 (he's using the CW paladin alternate). Our DM is giving us 32 stat points and hes a human, so what is an optimal build? He's planning on using the divie might feat so charisma is of some importance. Any feat suggestions would also be nice
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 08, 2012 0:06:38	So a friend of mine wants to make a paladin11/kensai 7/exotic weapons master 2 (he's using the CW paladin alternate). Our DM is giving us 32 stat points and hes a human, so what is an optimal build? He's planning on using the divie might feat so charisma is of some importance. Any feat suggestions would also be nice I can't tell what books are available or what level you're starting: these matter a lot for our suggestions. Honestly, I wouldn't suggest going with so much paladin or any exotic weapon master. You can make paladin rock on its own (and while divine might is a common feat for this, you don't always need it: check out Andarious' wonderful A-Game Paladin build in my signature; honestly, it's one of my all-time favorites), and you can make kensai work quite well (you can use psionics to amp up your Concentration result, which makes Power Surge much more user-friendly, for instance; the signature weapon is good but you can build around other aspects of the class), but in general exotic weapon master isn't worth it. If you have the Tome of Battle available - and you should, it's one of the best-designed books for 3.5 and the easiest way to make melee work - a crusader would be the natural choice, since it's basically what the paladin should have been except actually competitive. Here's the paladin handbook, and here's the kensai's handbook. Hopefully that's enough to start from.
#3 marcusfarcus Aug 08, 2012 8:01:47	Ya I can see that the extra weapons master is overkill, I could really only effectively use the uncanny blow. Honestly, I originally intended for the build to be a smiter and as laughable as that sounds I thought that with power surge, the right feats and the bonus damage from EwM it would be decent. After little research though I found the fist of raziel prestige class, and it looks pretty good for a smiter. Would a paladin5/kensai4/EWM1/FoR8/kensai2 be a decent smiter build? And I have access to any book. Thanks!
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 08, 2012 11:10:04	Ya I can see that the extra weapons master is overkill, I could really only effectively use the uncanny blow. No, I was saying that Exotic Weapons Master is not a good choice. I was not saying it was overkill. It sounds good, but look at it: A heavy, heavy Strength-focused character probably finishes with Strength 26ish if they still want points to spend in other areas (like Charisma - more on this later). That's a +8 modifier. You already get +12 damage with a two-hander from Strength alone. You'd be going out of your way for +4 damage with Exotic Weapon Master, and that's all that the level would get you. Meanwhile, if you had just 18 Charisma after equipment, Divine Might would add the same amount of damage, and would give you extra turn attempts to power it. Not quite as reliable, but it's a lot easier to get an 18 than a 26. EWM is not worth it. Honestly, I originally intended for the build to be a smiter and as laughable as that sounds I thought that with power surge, the right feats and the bonus damage from EwM it would be decent. Smite, with the actual Smite mechanics, is also not worth it - you rock for maybe two rounds per day, and then you lag. The only class that gets a decent number of smites is the Ordained Champion, and that's because it's powered by turn attempts. If you want "smite" effects, play a Crusader. Devoted Spirit maneuvers are usable all day long, and while they don't follow the exact mechanics of Smite Evil, they work quite well as smites (i.e. decisive killing blows against unrighteous targets). The Heavy Crusader build in my signature is an example of this approach. After little research though I found the fist of raziel prestige class, and it looks pretty good for a smiter. Would a paladin5/kensai4/EWM1/FoR8/kensai2 be a decent smiter build? For maybe three rounds per day. Honestly, you can easily out-damage smites using Power Attack, and that's usable all day, every day, against every foe (except those with the Elusive Target feat, which is hard to qualify for). And I have access to any book. Thanks! But what's your starting level? That's more important here. Without more information, I'd just say play a crusader.
#5 marcusfarcus Aug 08, 2012 12:28:36	Starting at level one. What about the Hellreaver? He has healing, good defensive skills, a smite like ability and it all refreshes each encounter. He kind of matches what I wanted with the earlier build-but I'm not sure what to build into him with.
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 08, 2012 15:08:26	Starting at level one. What about the Hellreaver? He has healing, good defensive skills, a smite like ability and it all refreshes each encounter. He kind of matches what I wanted with the earlier build-but I'm not sure what to build into him with. That's the kind of change you'd need to get the raw paladin working as intended. It's kind of awkward, but from what I can tell it might still work. That said, I still think the crusader is better in general - especially because there's more ways to "smite" than "add Charisma to the attack roll and add level to damage roll". (Note that virtually all of the Holy Fury abilities are very similar to what a crusader can already do - Holy Fury itself mirrors Foehammer and Mountain Hammer, Furious Strike mirrors just about every bonus-damage strike, Divine Succor mirrors the Crusader's Strike line of attacks, Divine Shield is a weak excuse for Shield Block, and Heroic Sacrifice is a weak excuse for crusader maneuver recovery. Only Call to Judgement is unique, while Divine Resolve and Divine Retribution mirrors maneuvers a crusader normally doesn't get (respectively the Diamond Mind counters and Feral Death Blow). Furthermore, the Holy Fury abilities are essentially worthless against unaligned foes and several cease to work against non-Outsiders; these aren't issues with the crusader.) You can also start doing things similar to this from level 1 - and if you want, nothing stops you from taking Crusader into Hellreaver. Due to the way ToB multiclassing works, just taking the occasional Crusader level is all that's needed to keep your maneuvers up to par.
#7 aelryinth Aug 08, 2012 20:41:19	I'd suggest using the Pathfinder Paladin, which makes Smites really, really rock, but I suspect that's one book you cannot use! ==Aelryinth
#8 Andarious-Rosethorn Aug 09, 2012 21:24:11	Only Call to Judgement is unique, while Divine Resolve and Divine Retribution mirrors maneuvers a crusader normally doesn't get (respectively the Diamond Mind counters and Feral Death Blow). With the exception of the unique ability, I can post a build on how to make a Crusader with Divine casting that can also use Diamond Mind Counters and Feral Death Blow (as could Tempest or many others I'm sure). It would use cleric spells (up to 6th) and maneuvers up to 9th from virtually any school, easily. The build matures late but is playable from 1 and solid by 8 or so. Thematically this fits the character archetype you're talking about. A dedicated defendor of Law, Justice and or Good that can cast spells to match. The only issue is that technically it requires a Greyhawk themed Wee Jas worshiping PRC (dedicated to the goddess of death and magic). Alignment wise you'd need to be LN/LG/LE or just N (most are LN, but LG or LE are doable, N's a bit weird). If it's not an Eberron campaign then you may have issues depending on if your DM allows a refluff or other adjustment to Ruby Knight Vindicator. If this is something you're interested in for a well optimized and simple to play and build martial/divine gish I can post details on the build.