King of Thieves - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

King of Thieves

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Arindurth
Oct 07, 2012 19:46:11 I am making Human rogue who I want to be the ultimate thief. He has has the following attributes. Str 15, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15. What do you think of me taking the Skill Focus (Open Locks) Feat and possibly Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand) Feat. If I take those two feats I want take them at 1st level What would be a good PrC for my character take if there is one?
#2
draco1119
Oct 07, 2012 20:02:58
I am making Human rogue who I want to be the ultimate thief. He has has the following attributes. Str 15, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15. What do you think of me taking the Skill Focus (Open Locks) Feat and possibly Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand) Feat. If I take those two feats I want take them at 1st level What would be a good PrC for my character take if there is one?

How did you get a character with a 51-point buy? Are you and Tisiphone in the same game or something? How do you manage to create a character that's two in one?
#3
Arindurth
Oct 07, 2012 20:11:24 I rolled for them.
#4
draco1119
Oct 07, 2012 20:19:49
I rolled for them.

Same question I asked Tisiphone, then: loaded dice? Some interesting die-roll character creation method that results in abnormally high rolls? Seriously, a 51 pb equivalent is TWICE the "Elite array".
#5
Balthanon
Oct 07, 2012 20:48:55
I am making Human rogue who I want to be the ultimate thief. He has has the following attributes. Str 15, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15. What do you think of me taking the Skill Focus (Open Locks) Feat and possibly Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand) Feat. If I take those two feats I want take them at 1st level What would be a good PrC for my character take if there is one?

Skill Focus is almost never a good choice. If you want to focus upon being a master thief with your feats, try Master Pickpocket instead. It's from City of Stormreach and there are actually a couple other decent feats for criminals available there, though Master Pickpocket is the best of them. Rather than using your feats to give small boosts to the skill check, try and find feats that let you do more with them than you could previously.
#6
Tempest_Stormwind
Oct 07, 2012 20:49:56
What should I do then? I know I want be good skills wise to help my character out.

He's challenging the legitimacy of ending up with insanely good ability scores, that's all.

Generally speaking, Open Lock is one of those skills you can take 20 on, so you don't need to worry about Skill Focus. By the time level 2 rolls around you'll almost certainly have a +10 modifier (5 ranks, +3 Dexterity, +2 for masterwork tools), so you can probably pick through all but the most amazing locks without trouble. And by the time you could possibly get the extra +10 on top of that needed for Amazing locks, you're at a level where you can buy a wand of Knock. (Use Magic Device is a better skill than Open Lock for this reason. Never more than 5 ranks, and you'll be fine.)

Sleight of Hand is another extremely situational skill. You don't necessarily need to max it out to hit the DCs you normally want, but as a pickpocket you might want to do this. With a +3 Intelligence modifier (or +4 if you advance it at level 4), you can almost certainly afford to do this. There are some rich rewards if you can get this skill really, really high (as in, possibly, stealing someone's pants in the middle of fighting them), but these rely on a literal interpretation of the rules, rather than a commonsense one. (I bridge the difference and use a swift action to solve the problem.)

In terms of what to do with feats, I would ignore Skill Focus for the most part unless you really, really want that one skill. "Traditional" rogue builds here focus on two-weapon fighting, which is feat-intensive, so not much has been written on other feat options. But you might want to look at the Uncanny Trapsmith build in my signature for an example of how to get around this while emphasizing sneaky skills.
#7
Arindurth
Oct 07, 2012 20:58:16 Would having a good Charisma help me out? I want to be good at stealing things is why I choose the skill focuses. I also want be called the King of thieves. Would going the TWf help me out? I am get the Master Pickpocket Feat. I think that the way I am going I am going to get at second level or third if I can not get at second level. Should I be a skills monkey?
#8
Balthanon
Oct 08, 2012 7:06:23 Charisma will help out with the "King" part of King of Thieves-- presumably you want to lead the thieves in the region, so you'll also want the social skills. Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc... most of those are Charisma based and if you take Leadership at 6th level to get followers, that is also Charisma based.
#9
waxgod
Oct 08, 2012 17:54:51 I once had a master thief character and this is how I built him.

1. Rogue (1) Skill Focus (Bluff)
2. Rogue (2)
3. Rogue (3) Skill Focus (Disguise)
4. Rogue (4)
5. Spymaster (1)
6. Spymaster (2) Alertness
7. Spymaster (3)
8. Thief-Acrobat (1)
9. Thief-Acrobat (2) Combat Tinkering
10. Thief-Acrobat (3)
11. Exemplar (1)
12. Thief-Acrobat (4) Trap Engineer
13. Trapsmith (1)
14. Trapsmith (2)
15. Trapsmith (3) Blind Fighting
16. Trapsmith (4)
17. Trapsmith (5)
18. Dungeon Delver (1) Improved Initiative
19. Dungeon Delver (2)
20. Dungeon Delver (3)

I built this thief so he could master almost all his skills with a high degree of success.

I took 4 levels of Rogue to get into Spymaster. What I wanted out of Spymaster was Cover ID (+4 Disguise, +2 Bluff & Gather Intel); Always active Undetectable Alignment (like the spell); a bonus to Will Saves vs Scrying and a bonus to Spot to detect divination spells; and Magic Aura at will to hide magic items.

I took Thief-Acrobat to get Skill Mastery in 4 skills (taking 10 on those skills even under duress).

Exemplar has Skill Artistry and Skill Mastery at 1st level. Skill Artistry is +4 to any skill, and Skill Mastery lets you take 10 on a number of skills = to your Intel Mod +1. So I had 18 Intel with a +4 Mod, so that is 5 skills now that I can take 10 on. Which brings my total up to 9 skills.

Trapsmith has some very useful skills, like quickly disarming traps, avoiding triggered traps, dispelling magic traps, and some very useful spells (like greater dispel magic, dimension door, haste, fox's cunning, etc...).

And Dungeon Delver also has Skill Mastery (3+ Intel Mod). So now I have 16 skills I can take 10 on, plus Darkvision, and Reduce and Augury spells 1x day.

So in the end I was taking 10 on skills to save my butt in combat and getting over a "30" skill result. I had some very useful skills for thievery and trap disarming, and spells. This character was a lot of fun to play until he got trapped in Hell.

But take a look at those Prestige Classes: Spymaster, Exemplar, Thief-Acrobat and Dungeon Delver all come from Complete Adventurers book. And Trapsmith comes from Dungeonscape.

Good luck with your character.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Arindurth Oct 07, 2012 19:46:11	I am making Human rogue who I want to be the ultimate thief. He has has the following attributes. Str 15, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15. What do you think of me taking the Skill Focus (Open Locks) Feat and possibly Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand) Feat. If I take those two feats I want take them at 1st level What would be a good PrC for my character take if there is one?
#2 draco1119 Oct 07, 2012 20:02:58	I am making Human rogue who I want to be the ultimate thief. He has has the following attributes. Str 15, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15. What do you think of me taking the Skill Focus (Open Locks) Feat and possibly Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand) Feat. If I take those two feats I want take them at 1st level What would be a good PrC for my character take if there is one? How did you get a character with a 51-point buy? Are you and Tisiphone in the same game or something? How do you manage to create a character that's two in one?
#3 Arindurth Oct 07, 2012 20:11:24	I rolled for them.
#4 draco1119 Oct 07, 2012 20:19:49	I rolled for them. Same question I asked Tisiphone, then: loaded dice? Some interesting die-roll character creation method that results in abnormally high rolls? Seriously, a 51 pb equivalent is TWICE the "Elite array".
#5 Balthanon Oct 07, 2012 20:48:55	I am making Human rogue who I want to be the ultimate thief. He has has the following attributes. Str 15, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15. What do you think of me taking the Skill Focus (Open Locks) Feat and possibly Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand) Feat. If I take those two feats I want take them at 1st level What would be a good PrC for my character take if there is one? Skill Focus is almost never a good choice. If you want to focus upon being a master thief with your feats, try Master Pickpocket instead. It's from City of Stormreach and there are actually a couple other decent feats for criminals available there, though Master Pickpocket is the best of them. Rather than using your feats to give small boosts to the skill check, try and find feats that let you do more with them than you could previously.
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 07, 2012 20:49:56	What should I do then? I know I want be good skills wise to help my character out. He's challenging the legitimacy of ending up with insanely good ability scores, that's all. Generally speaking, Open Lock is one of those skills you can take 20 on, so you don't need to worry about Skill Focus. By the time level 2 rolls around you'll almost certainly have a +10 modifier (5 ranks, +3 Dexterity, +2 for masterwork tools), so you can probably pick through all but the most amazing locks without trouble. And by the time you could possibly get the extra +10 on top of that needed for Amazing locks, you're at a level where you can buy a wand of Knock. (Use Magic Device is a better skill than Open Lock for this reason. Never more than 5 ranks, and you'll be fine.) Sleight of Hand is another extremely situational skill. You don't necessarily need to max it out to hit the DCs you normally want, but as a pickpocket you might want to do this. With a +3 Intelligence modifier (or +4 if you advance it at level 4), you can almost certainly afford to do this. There are some rich rewards if you can get this skill really, really high (as in, possibly, stealing someone's pants in the middle of fighting them), but these rely on a literal interpretation of the rules, rather than a commonsense one. (I bridge the difference and use a swift action to solve the problem.) In terms of what to do with feats, I would ignore Skill Focus for the most part unless you really, really want that one skill. "Traditional" rogue builds here focus on two-weapon fighting, which is feat-intensive, so not much has been written on other feat options. But you might want to look at the Uncanny Trapsmith build in my signature for an example of how to get around this while emphasizing sneaky skills.
#7 Arindurth Oct 07, 2012 20:58:16	Would having a good Charisma help me out? I want to be good at stealing things is why I choose the skill focuses. I also want be called the King of thieves. Would going the TWf help me out? I am get the Master Pickpocket Feat. I think that the way I am going I am going to get at second level or third if I can not get at second level. Should I be a skills monkey?
#8 Balthanon Oct 08, 2012 7:06:23	Charisma will help out with the "King" part of King of Thieves-- presumably you want to lead the thieves in the region, so you'll also want the social skills. Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc... most of those are Charisma based and if you take Leadership at 6th level to get followers, that is also Charisma based.
#9 waxgod Oct 08, 2012 17:54:51	I once had a master thief character and this is how I built him. 1. Rogue (1) Skill Focus (Bluff) 2. Rogue (2) 3. Rogue (3) Skill Focus (Disguise) 4. Rogue (4) 5. Spymaster (1) 6. Spymaster (2) Alertness 7. Spymaster (3) 8. Thief-Acrobat (1) 9. Thief-Acrobat (2) Combat Tinkering 10. Thief-Acrobat (3) 11. Exemplar (1) 12. Thief-Acrobat (4) Trap Engineer 13. Trapsmith (1) 14. Trapsmith (2) 15. Trapsmith (3) Blind Fighting 16. Trapsmith (4) 17. Trapsmith (5) 18. Dungeon Delver (1) Improved Initiative 19. Dungeon Delver (2) 20. Dungeon Delver (3) I built this thief so he could master almost all his skills with a high degree of success. I took 4 levels of Rogue to get into Spymaster. What I wanted out of Spymaster was Cover ID (+4 Disguise, +2 Bluff & Gather Intel); Always active Undetectable Alignment (like the spell); a bonus to Will Saves vs Scrying and a bonus to Spot to detect divination spells; and Magic Aura at will to hide magic items. I took Thief-Acrobat to get Skill Mastery in 4 skills (taking 10 on those skills even under duress). Exemplar has Skill Artistry and Skill Mastery at 1st level. Skill Artistry is +4 to any skill, and Skill Mastery lets you take 10 on a number of skills = to your Intel Mod +1. So I had 18 Intel with a +4 Mod, so that is 5 skills now that I can take 10 on. Which brings my total up to 9 skills. Trapsmith has some very useful skills, like quickly disarming traps, avoiding triggered traps, dispelling magic traps, and some very useful spells (like greater dispel magic, dimension door, haste, fox's cunning, etc...). And Dungeon Delver also has Skill Mastery (3+ Intel Mod). So now I have 16 skills I can take 10 on, plus Darkvision, and Reduce and Augury spells 1x day. So in the end I was taking 10 on skills to save my butt in combat and getting over a "30" skill result. I had some very useful skills for thievery and trap disarming, and spells. This character was a lot of fun to play until he got trapped in Hell. But take a look at those Prestige Classes: Spymaster, Exemplar, Thief-Acrobat and Dungeon Delver all come from Complete Adventurers book. And Trapsmith comes from Dungeonscape. Good luck with your character.