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Knight build help

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
tweedledope
May 03, 2008 9:06:07 My DM is starting up a new campaign after our old one ended rather...abruptly (I caused the apocalypse, big whoop wanna fight about it?) With that, he's decided to run a Rokugan/Oriental Adventures style game. However, he knows my dispassionate hatred for the 'Wuxia' style play and such so, he's said I can play a Knight who is visiting from the "western lands." Roleplaying aspects aside, I can't for the life of me figure a build that would work well for a knight.

Here is what I have so far:

Knight 20
Fighter 2/Knight 18
No spiked chain; it has to be core to the traditional knight type (IE, sword or polearm)
No Paladin at all. Also, no divine spellcasting.
32 point buy
All books available and all magazines

I looked at the 'Tar Baby Knight' thread and there is a lot of interesting stuff there but, I just can't use the Spiked Chain. Do any of you know of any Polearm weapon that is reach and can be used to attack adjacent foes?

Thanks in advance,

-=Tweedledope=-
#2
tshern
May 03, 2008 9:11:04 No Tome of Battle love?

Anyway, there's a feat called Short haft in PHB II that allows you to use a reach weapon to attack adjacent squares. You could also use armor spikes.
#3
tweedledope
May 03, 2008 9:26:36 Tome of Battle love...totally forgot about that. My DM loves ToB too. What would you suggest from there? Crusader would work well I think since it's not -technically- spellcasting. Hmm...know of a good Crusader/Knight mix? Also, what polearm would you suggest? I've seen Glaive as a popular choice.
#4
skydragonknight
May 03, 2008 9:29:02 Would "Spinning Sword" from Secrets of Sarlona be "Knightish" enough?
#5
stormbrooke
May 03, 2008 9:52:00 I imagine you'll get a lot of people telling you to go full crusader but keep the "knight" roleplay because honestly it's a far better class at each level.

One of the failings of the Knight imho is that it's not a good candidate for multi-classing (ah!), but most people still get drawn to it b/c is flavor is top shelf.

I failed miserably at opt'ing it. I did Knight 3/Fighter 2/Knight +15 in a no ToB game. Ability Focus (Fighting Challenge) was really nice at level 1 giving +3 to attack and damage. In the lower to mid levels riding a horse and doing x3 damage on charges was a lot of fun..opt out your mount by working with your DM it'll be worth the time. Also, don't forget you can use shield ally on the mount.

Late game the build was stale though, and the no ref or fort saves need to be covered somehow. I almost considered a monk 2 dip for 2 to each save and evasion, but I found the bonus feats I could chose from really didn't add much value near end game...might be worth a starting dip if your campaign begins at some mid level.

For the reach fighting I +1 short haft, or if you're going the equipment route do spiked gauntlet + reach weapon first - less expense than adding armor spikes to each new armor you find, but takes up hand and wrist slot. When you start getting armor you'll wear for awhile then add the spikes and don't forget you can add properties to them.

Driving Attack + Short Haft peek my interest while reading, but I could never figure out how to pull off something really cool with it so I left it out.

Bunch of not useful advice, but what I remember from my time as a Knight.
#6
tshern
May 03, 2008 9:52:48
Tome of Battle love...totally forgot about that. My DM loves ToB too. What would you suggest from there? Crusader would work well I think since it's not -technically- spellcasting. Hmm...know of a good Crusader/Knight mix? Also, what polearm would you suggest? I've seen Glaive as a popular choice.

I am a great fan of glaive. The mechanical differences are not all that huge, so it doesn't too much.

If you are willing to try Tome of Battle, check out Devoted spirit. There's a stance called Thicket of Blades and combining it with Stand still and Combat reflexes makes any character a terrific battlefield controller.
#7
tweedledope
May 03, 2008 10:33:05 Good point, I'll try to run the Crusader by my DM and see what he says. So, do you think Knight 3 (I think that's the level when you get the ability to treat all squares you threaten as difficult terrain, I'm AFB) and then Crusader 17 would be good? I'm really liking the idea of a Glaive (maybe naginata for flavor) with Short Haft. Good catch on Ability Focus (Knight's Challenge) Stormbrooke, didn't even consider that.

Since you've played a knight, how do you say it scales with level? It seems to me that a 9th level Knight could only challenge a CR 7 critter...seems rather crappy right? Maybe I'm reading it wrong?
#8
CantripN
May 03, 2008 10:53:32 Consider Ash for ideas. I hadn't used Stand Still and ToB back then, but both are good ideas.
#9
tweedledope
May 03, 2008 11:09:09 Regarding the spinning sword...since I'm AFB right now, how do the mechanics for it function? I know that you can link two of the swords together (right?) to make it a reach weapon.
#10
CantripN
May 03, 2008 11:17:13 Those would be Hooked Swords (SoS as well, and it requires Weapon Focus, TWF or the ability to use it as a Monk Weapon and another feat called Tiger's XXX (?)), not Spinning Swords . A Spinning Sword is like a Spiked Chain (Finessable, Special Reach), except it's One Handed and can't be used in 2 hands to deal more STR based damage.
#11
stormbrooke
May 03, 2008 11:59:10
So, do you think Knight 3 (I think that's the level when you get the ability to treat all squares you threaten as difficult terrain, I'm AFB) and then Crusader 17 would be good?

Knight 3 is when you get Bulwark of Defense (enemies treat threatened squares as difficult terrain), but in all honesty it isn't worth the dip if you go crusader with the Standstill feat and Thicket of Blades because your enemies won't be moving anyways. Some "lockdown" builds using Standstill:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=953434
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706

I'm really liking the idea of a Glaive (maybe naginata for flavor) with Short Haft.

If you're going for damage and reach Glaive is the best choice from PHB. I'm not as familiar with equipment in splat books, so there may be something out there even more optimal. Before the stand still feat I use to be a big fan of the guisarme b/c you could keep people tripped out in your 10ft area and from getting close to you. You'll definitely want to use a lance if you go horseback, and I never thought about a Mounted Standstill build, that could be interesting.

Since you've played a knight, how do you say it scales with level?

Before ToB, I would have said if you have to stay in a base class for 20 levels and are going melee than Knight is a decent choice. I mean at level 20 and with ability focus, you could do worse than +6 to your fighting challenge. The build probably stops being a spotlight somewhere around 10-12. Once again I think it's more the Knight's flavor that continues to caputre peoples' attention.

I mean seriously, Test of Mettle - you force all the enemies on the field to stop attacking your comrades and turn to come after you? Loyal Beyond Death - you burn through Knight Challenges /day to stay living for another round after -10? Flavor-wise this class is it, I see a scene where the party's trapped against unbeatable odds. The Knight tells the party to make all haste and retreat, he/she drops a Test of Mettle and makes the crowd follow him/her. With Loyal Beyond Death the Knight keeps standing long enough to let the other members escape (1/2 class level + CHA modifer rounds). As sea of monsters surround the Knight, and despite all odds and deadly blows, he/she still continues to swing, before finally falling with a slight smile b/c they know the rest of the party is safe... man! I wish all my characters could go down in a scene as cool as that!

Yes a wizard could have teleported the party safely away, but alas this is the romantic appeal of Knights, which is masterfully captured in the class. Honestly though, from a mechanic standpoint, ToB made many 3.5 melee classes irrelevant.

It seems to me that a 9th level Knight could only challenge a CR 7 critter...seems rather crappy right? Maybe I'm reading it wrong?

IIRC it's creatures -2 your ECL and up, so for a level 9 Knight he/she could challenge CR 7 and up.
#12
gavinfoxx
May 03, 2008 14:56:05 You know, IRL, there isn't THAT much difference between cultures that had a noble/elite class of mounted, armored warriors with behavioral restrictions that had to follow a feudal leader...

Really, the only thing that would really set them apart (irl) is the quality of the Western Knight's armor.

So with that thought, as a nod to "realism", maybe you should consider optimizing the Knight's ability to use his armor, and doing stuff to have better armor...?

Just a thought! See if you can get your DM to approve some stuff, maybe to simulate this? Compared to 'local' armors, he might be proficient in an 'exotic' armor that does the following:

+9 armor bonus to AC
+1 max dex mod
-7 armor check penalty
40% asf
60 lbs weight
damage reduction 3/-
hardness 22
hitpoints 50

Just to represent that Western Knightly armor is better than Eastern armor, generally. Of course, such a thing would be PRICELESS in an Eastern society... ;)
#13
ChristopherGroves
May 03, 2008 18:02:04 Put me in the camp with mostly crusader and knight, marshal or other cha classes as dips. Most of the knight class features can be managed with crusader.

Also, avoid the short haft feat . . . Improves unarmed strike or just armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet is more than enough

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tweedledope May 03, 2008 9:06:07	My DM is starting up a new campaign after our old one ended rather...abruptly (I caused the apocalypse, big whoop wanna fight about it?) With that, he's decided to run a Rokugan/Oriental Adventures style game. However, he knows my dispassionate hatred for the 'Wuxia' style play and such so, he's said I can play a Knight who is visiting from the "western lands." Roleplaying aspects aside, I can't for the life of me figure a build that would work well for a knight. Here is what I have so far: Knight 20 Fighter 2/Knight 18 No spiked chain; it has to be core to the traditional knight type (IE, sword or polearm) No Paladin at all. Also, no divine spellcasting. 32 point buy All books available and all magazines I looked at the 'Tar Baby Knight' thread and there is a lot of interesting stuff there but, I just can't use the Spiked Chain. Do any of you know of any Polearm weapon that is reach and can be used to attack adjacent foes? Thanks in advance, -=Tweedledope=-
#2 tshern May 03, 2008 9:11:04	No Tome of Battle love? Anyway, there's a feat called Short haft in PHB II that allows you to use a reach weapon to attack adjacent squares. You could also use armor spikes.
#3 tweedledope May 03, 2008 9:26:36	Tome of Battle love...totally forgot about that. My DM loves ToB too. What would you suggest from there? Crusader would work well I think since it's not -technically- spellcasting. Hmm...know of a good Crusader/Knight mix? Also, what polearm would you suggest? I've seen Glaive as a popular choice.
#4 skydragonknight May 03, 2008 9:29:02	Would "Spinning Sword" from Secrets of Sarlona be "Knightish" enough?
#5 stormbrooke May 03, 2008 9:52:00	I imagine you'll get a lot of people telling you to go full crusader but keep the "knight" roleplay because honestly it's a far better class at each level. One of the failings of the Knight imho is that it's not a good candidate for multi-classing (ah!), but most people still get drawn to it b/c is flavor is top shelf. I failed miserably at opt'ing it. I did Knight 3/Fighter 2/Knight +15 in a no ToB game. Ability Focus (Fighting Challenge) was really nice at level 1 giving +3 to attack and damage. In the lower to mid levels riding a horse and doing x3 damage on charges was a lot of fun..opt out your mount by working with your DM it'll be worth the time. Also, don't forget you can use shield ally on the mount. Late game the build was stale though, and the no ref or fort saves need to be covered somehow. I almost considered a monk 2 dip for 2 to each save and evasion, but I found the bonus feats I could chose from really didn't add much value near end game...might be worth a starting dip if your campaign begins at some mid level. For the reach fighting I +1 short haft, or if you're going the equipment route do spiked gauntlet + reach weapon first - less expense than adding armor spikes to each new armor you find, but takes up hand and wrist slot. When you start getting armor you'll wear for awhile then add the spikes and don't forget you can add properties to them. Driving Attack + Short Haft peek my interest while reading, but I could never figure out how to pull off something really cool with it so I left it out. Bunch of not useful advice, but what I remember from my time as a Knight.
#6 tshern May 03, 2008 9:52:48	Tome of Battle love...totally forgot about that. My DM loves ToB too. What would you suggest from there? Crusader would work well I think since it's not -technically- spellcasting. Hmm...know of a good Crusader/Knight mix? Also, what polearm would you suggest? I've seen Glaive as a popular choice. I am a great fan of glaive. The mechanical differences are not all that huge, so it doesn't too much. If you are willing to try Tome of Battle, check out Devoted spirit. There's a stance called Thicket of Blades and combining it with Stand still and Combat reflexes makes any character a terrific battlefield controller.
#7 tweedledope May 03, 2008 10:33:05	Good point, I'll try to run the Crusader by my DM and see what he says. So, do you think Knight 3 (I think that's the level when you get the ability to treat all squares you threaten as difficult terrain, I'm AFB) and then Crusader 17 would be good? I'm really liking the idea of a Glaive (maybe naginata for flavor) with Short Haft. Good catch on Ability Focus (Knight's Challenge) Stormbrooke, didn't even consider that. Since you've played a knight, how do you say it scales with level? It seems to me that a 9th level Knight could only challenge a CR 7 critter...seems rather crappy right? Maybe I'm reading it wrong?
#8 CantripN May 03, 2008 10:53:32	Consider Ash for ideas. I hadn't used Stand Still and ToB back then, but both are good ideas.
#9 tweedledope May 03, 2008 11:09:09	Regarding the spinning sword...since I'm AFB right now, how do the mechanics for it function? I know that you can link two of the swords together (right?) to make it a reach weapon.
#10 CantripN May 03, 2008 11:17:13	Those would be Hooked Swords (SoS as well, and it requires Weapon Focus, TWF or the ability to use it as a Monk Weapon and another feat called Tiger's XXX (?)), not Spinning Swords . A Spinning Sword is like a Spiked Chain (Finessable, Special Reach), except it's One Handed and can't be used in 2 hands to deal more STR based damage.
#11 stormbrooke May 03, 2008 11:59:10	So, do you think Knight 3 (I think that's the level when you get the ability to treat all squares you threaten as difficult terrain, I'm AFB) and then Crusader 17 would be good? Knight 3 is when you get Bulwark of Defense (enemies treat threatened squares as difficult terrain), but in all honesty it isn't worth the dip if you go crusader with the Standstill feat and Thicket of Blades because your enemies won't be moving anyways. Some "lockdown" builds using Standstill: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=953434 http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706 I'm really liking the idea of a Glaive (maybe naginata for flavor) with Short Haft. If you're going for damage and reach Glaive is the best choice from PHB. I'm not as familiar with equipment in splat books, so there may be something out there even more optimal. Before the stand still feat I use to be a big fan of the guisarme b/c you could keep people tripped out in your 10ft area and from getting close to you. You'll definitely want to use a lance if you go horseback, and I never thought about a Mounted Standstill build, that could be interesting. Since you've played a knight, how do you say it scales with level? Before ToB, I would have said if you have to stay in a base class for 20 levels and are going melee than Knight is a decent choice. I mean at level 20 and with ability focus, you could do worse than +6 to your fighting challenge. The build probably stops being a spotlight somewhere around 10-12. Once again I think it's more the Knight's flavor that continues to caputre peoples' attention. I mean seriously, Test of Mettle - you force all the enemies on the field to stop attacking your comrades and turn to come after you? Loyal Beyond Death - you burn through Knight Challenges /day to stay living for another round after -10? Flavor-wise this class is it, I see a scene where the party's trapped against unbeatable odds. The Knight tells the party to make all haste and retreat, he/she drops a Test of Mettle and makes the crowd follow him/her. With Loyal Beyond Death the Knight keeps standing long enough to let the other members escape (1/2 class level + CHA modifer rounds). As sea of monsters surround the Knight, and despite all odds and deadly blows, he/she still continues to swing, before finally falling with a slight smile b/c they know the rest of the party is safe... man! I wish all my characters could go down in a scene as cool as that! Yes a wizard could have teleported the party safely away, but alas this is the romantic appeal of Knights, which is masterfully captured in the class. Honestly though, from a mechanic standpoint, ToB made many 3.5 melee classes irrelevant. It seems to me that a 9th level Knight could only challenge a CR 7 critter...seems rather crappy right? Maybe I'm reading it wrong? IIRC it's creatures -2 your ECL and up, so for a level 9 Knight he/she could challenge CR 7 and up.
#12 gavinfoxx May 03, 2008 14:56:05	You know, IRL, there isn't THAT much difference between cultures that had a noble/elite class of mounted, armored warriors with behavioral restrictions that had to follow a feudal leader... Really, the only thing that would really set them apart (irl) is the quality of the Western Knight's armor. So with that thought, as a nod to "realism", maybe you should consider optimizing the Knight's ability to use his armor, and doing stuff to have better armor...? Just a thought! See if you can get your DM to approve some stuff, maybe to simulate this? Compared to 'local' armors, he might be proficient in an 'exotic' armor that does the following: +9 armor bonus to AC +1 max dex mod -7 armor check penalty 40% asf 60 lbs weight damage reduction 3/- hardness 22 hitpoints 50 Just to represent that Western Knightly armor is better than Eastern armor, generally. Of course, such a thing would be PRICELESS in an Eastern society... ;)
#13 ChristopherGroves May 03, 2008 18:02:04	Put me in the camp with mostly crusader and knight, marshal or other cha classes as dips. Most of the knight class features can be managed with crusader. Also, avoid the short haft feat . . . Improves unarmed strike or just armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet is more than enough