Kobold sorceror for high level campaign - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Kobold sorceror for high level campaign

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
gamebird
Jan 14, 2009 19:37:36 (Please, no Pun-puns or infinite loop type characters.)

I'm in a campaign where we're all playing members of a long-lost tribe of good-aligned kobolds who are destined to bring magic back to the world. Right now, there's no magic, but there will be soon. The DM projects rapid level advancement, like a level every game or every other game and we'll play to 30th level. Eventually we are to morph into dragons. I get the strong impression the DM is not well-versed on the rules (for example, he has no idea of what "epic" means).

Multiclass is an option as is stuff out of most books. Personally I'd prefer not to go too far afield. We're 3.5 edition.

I wish to build a sorceror who will start play at 5th level and continue until 30th. My preference for spells is utility, although a reliable blasty-spell is nice too. Actually I'd rather someone here with a lot of experience building sorcerors could build it for me (;^)

I don't think creation of magic items will be allowed until high level, but as far as that goes, I don't think the DM knows or cares to know the full item creation rules. For one thing, he's not tracking individual xp - he just tells us to level up to the next level, so I don't think there will be any downside to making items xp-wise.
#2
viletta
Jan 14, 2009 20:21:25 If you don't mind being a one-trick-wonder, the Heaven and Hell One-Shot Sure-Kill Cannon is a possibility for a kobold. It's all about stacking metamagic cost reducers until you can get off, say, a maximized empowered twin repeating enervating force missile. At level 18, that's... 120*1.5*2*2*1.5=1080 damage with no save (spell resistance applies, though). For comparison, a great wyrm gold dragon has 717 HP.

The keys here are Incantatrix (Player's Guide to Faerun) and Arcane Thesis: Force Missile (PHB2 for the feat, Spell Compendium for the spell). Either grabbing Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage) or the metamagic variant sorcerer (source unknown) is also important. Metamagic School Focus: Evocation (Complete Mage) helps, and since you're a kobold, you can grab Practical Metamagic (Races of the Dragon) to really pull it together. Argent Savant (Complete Arcane) costs you a caster level, but it adds a point of damage to every die of damage for your force spells, which is a hefty 16% power boost on top of a thousand damage.

The problem with this is, of course, that not only are you pouring everything into blasting, you're pouring everything into a single blasting spell. Diversity is a bit shot. And the power curve for your damage output is exponential, starting slow and spiraling up into the extreme.
#3
gamebird
Jan 14, 2009 21:34:02 That sounds like a good start. From your link, it looks like the One-Shot is built on the following feats at the following levels:
1- Iron Will
1- Transdimensional Spell
1- Repeat Spell
1- Twin Spell
3- Arcane Thesis
6- Energy Substitution
7(B)- Energy Admixture
9- Rapid Metamagic
10(B)- Chain Spell
12- Practical Metamagic: Maximize Spell
13(B)- Empower Spell
15- Practical Metamagic: Twin Spell
17(B)- Heighten Spell
18- Practical Metamagic: Repeat Spell

I don't have time to look everything up, but is Iron Will really necessary? What does that add to things?

And how do you get four feats at first level?

Do you stay Sorceror the whole way through, or is there a prestige class you suggest at some point?
#4
viletta
Jan 14, 2009 22:07:14 That actually doesn't work out. It was a preliminary sketch, using an elemental orb for raw power instead of the more reliable Force Missile. Arcane Thesis at that level couldn't be applied to the right spell, and Energy Admixture/Substitution will be useless since you're using a force spell. I got the four starting feats using flaws, which are optional rules subject to DM approval.

Iron Will is a requirement to enter the Incantatrix class, which is where those bonus feats come from and a source of metamagic level reduction across the board. You can hit the skill requirements for that one easily, and you'll have the metamagic requirement met. Once your casting is pretty much matured, Argent Savant can add a big hunk of extra damage at the cost of one caster level. Its requirements are linked to easy skills and your spell list.

So, possible progression to level 20 would be Sorcerer6/Incantatrix10/Argent Savant4. Or put off Argent Savant a couple levels and take the bulk of it in epic. You don't really get much for your core concept from Argent Savant past level one, but it beats the wasteland that is Sorcerer class features.

If you convince your DM, your character's backstory can include some serious prison time, including time in an Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel), which confers Iron Will for free. Now, without flaws, you should be able to manage something like...

Otyugh Hole- Iron Will
1- Empower Spell
3- Twin Spell
6- Repeat Spell
7(B)- Maximize Spell
9- Arcane Thesis: Force Missile
10(B)- Enervate Spell
12- Metamagic School Focus: Evocation
13(B)- Heighten Spell
15- Practical Metamagic: Maximize Spell
17(B)- Quicken Spell
18- Practical Metamagic: Repeat Spell
#5
jenos
Jan 14, 2009 22:09:35 Iron will is a requirement for incanatrix. The feats are gotten through Flaws, found from UA, or d20srd.org, under variant character rules.

It prestige classes into incanatrix, which gives you the ability to do all sorts of metamagic shenanigans.

That being said, what I suggest is actually doing a couple of caster level boosts. Since you're already going to be turning into dragons eventually, theres A LOT of flavor/abilities tied to kobold/dragon stuff.

First off: Dragonwrought. ITs a feat from Races of the Dragon. What the feat does is give you dragon subtype, and you don't get penalties for aging. What this means is that you get a flat +3 Int/Wis/Cha to make use of, for the cost of a feat - HIGHLY suggested, however you do end up as a venerable kobold, which may not be to your liking.

Second, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a This gives something called the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, which is also found in Races of the Dragon. What this feat does is put your spellcasting progression on par with that of a wizard, exceedinly useful if you start out at low levels(Which you are).

Now things start to get a little cheesier. You can see if you pick up the white dragonspawn template from Dragonlance Campaign Setting, which gives you an LA of +1, in addition to alot of other goodies. The kicker is that it gives you sorceror spellcasting at +1 level, so that you take no caster level loss for lots of amazing abilities(+6 NA, Flight, etc). In addition, if you play with LA Buyoff(Also from UA) you end up a level ahead of the curve(And add in Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, and you're now TWO levels ahead). However, its unlikely you will get this to fly - there are wonky RP issues with it.

In addition, theres the Loredrake aspect from Dragons of Eberron. While it seems it was intended for characters with dragon hit dice, kobolds with dragonwrought do qualify for it. What it does is turn your dragon hit dice to d10's from d12's, and give you +2 sorceror spellcasting level. However, as a kobold spellcaster, you don't have any dragon hitdice. Normally I wouldn't think this would be viably arguable to a DM, however you do intend to turn into dragons, and losing 1 HP/level is WELL worth more spellcasting levels.

Those are just some ways to boost sorc spellcasting level, say you do loredrake and draconic rite of passage, you'll end up learning 5th level spells when your wizards learn 4th, which is amazing.

In addition, as a dragonblood subtype sorceror, you have access to one really great feat: Practical Metamagic. Its a wonderful feat, and it can clearly ve very optimized as the previous post shows, but regardless if you want to take it to that level or not, its still useful for a lot of stuff.

Just some ideas for you to look into as a kobold sorc.
#6
NiteCyper
Jan 14, 2009 22:18:33
(Please, no Pun-puns or infinite loop type characters.)

Normally, I'd quote the post I made before to the same person who said the same thing, but I can't find it.
Point: Don't flatter us with praises of how well we welcome newbies to these boards.

Finally, the advice: Druid 20. with draconic wildshape

Jenos is on the ball.
#7
viletta
Jan 14, 2009 22:32:02 Oh, yes. I forgot to tally up levels. For the feat progression I listed, here's what you end up with.

4: Force Missile's base level.
+0=4: Empower Spell (+2 base, -1 Inc, -1 AT)
+1=5: Twin Spell (+4 base, -1 Inc, -1 AT, -1 School Focus [max 3/day])
+0=5: Repeat Spell (+3 base, -1 Inc, -1 Prac, -1 AT)
+0=5: Maximize Spell (+3 base, -1 Inc, -1 Prac, -1 AT)
+0=5: Enervate Spell (+2 base, -1 Inc, -1 AT)
+3=8: Quicken Spell (+4 base, -1 Inc, -1 AT, +1 for not using School Focus here)

That comes out to the 1080 damage I mentioned earlier from a 5th level spell slot (6th after you've spent your three uses of Metamagic School Focus for the day, and 1260 damage with Argent Savant), then another 1080 (or 1260) damage from the same thing quickened sans School Focus out of an 8th level spell, with half damage to adjacent targets. So, every spell slot level 6 and up, plus three level 5 slots, can be used to fuel your thousand-damage cannon. Dropping/delaying a couple instances of Practical Metamagic and/or a metamagic feat, possibly delayed to epic levels, in order to grab Dragonwrought and the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage Jenos mentioned can advance your casting even faster. Kobolds have such cheese available to them.
#8
DeAnno
Jan 15, 2009 2:50:45 You might want to look into my work here.
#9
bjorsa
Jan 15, 2009 8:13:46 Piling up all that metamagic would add considerably to casting time. Surely you can't expect to afford Accelerate Metamagic for all those metamagic feats?
#10
gamebird
Jan 15, 2009 8:44:15 The mailman is very awesome and I greatly appreciate all the background work and detail. It lets me just copy that out, know where to go to check and research, have a headstart on the spell list, and lock n load with the character.

If I have time this Saturday or Friday night, I'll set up a compare n contrast with the One-Shot Sure-Kill Canon.

I can't play with the Dragonwrought/venerable cheese because we're already started as characters (young adult), playing as d6 kobolds until 4th level when, in order to transition to 5th I'll have to remake my character as a sorceror. Those taking non-casty types will advance as normal for their class. Caster-types get to choose to take an spell-less version of their class or advance as a d6 monster/kobold, which is what I'm doing so far. No point in being a d4 sorceror without spells.
#11
viletta
Jan 15, 2009 10:37:13 For the short comparison between the two, The Mailman is more reliable. The One-Shot is more raw power. DeAnno's work is designed to create a reliable blaster through all levels. Mine's designed to get a power level over nine thousand and let loose more raw damage with the sure-kill than any enemy is ever likely to be able to survive. Particularly at lower levels, The Mailman is more efficient. And The Mailman is far more well-researched and fleshed out. However, reworking the feats to include Arcane Thesis can get you close to the sure-kill anyways, especially if you can talk your DM into letting you pay to hunt down Metamagic Storms (Complete Mage) which can grant you the metamagic that The Mailman doesn't have. With just Incantatrix and Arcane Thesis, you can still get off the cannon from an 8th level spell slot, though you wouldn't be able to quicken it.
Piling up all that metamagic would add considerably to casting time. Surely you can't expect to afford Accelerate Metamagic for all those metamagic feats?

You don't need it. Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature. PHB II. It trades your familiar to get rid of that stupid casting time boost. Also, never, EVER take Accelerated Metamagic unless there's only one metamagic feat you actually care about or you plan to retrain later. Rapid Metamagic does the same thing for all metamagic.
#12
bjorsa
Jan 16, 2009 15:18:02 Plan for a high INT score I suppose? And who cares if you go for Rapid or Accelerate?
#13
viletta
Jan 16, 2009 17:20:49
Plan for a high INT score I suppose? And who cares if you go for Rapid or Accelerate?

Why a high Int score? There's little need for a Sorcerer to have high Int aside from skills, which are secondary. Sorcerers use Cha. And Accelerate gives the build I laid out one sixth the benefit Rapid gives, since Accelerate only applies to a single metamagic feat and rapid applies to all. The metamagic specialist variant gives the full benefit at no feat cost by giving up your familiar. It is indeed a big deal.
#14
bjorsa
Jan 16, 2009 17:54:11 Cool. I never read Rapid Meta that way. Looking at it now in Complete Mage, I guess RAW you may be right. Is there a consensus on this here at CharOp? How many meta can one apply then, according to you? It says "When you apply a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell, the spell takes only its normal casting time." A metamagic effect such as ONE metamagic effect?

About the Metamagic specialist, the limit is 3 + Int mod per day, so with a low Int it's useless, wouldn't you say?
#15
viletta
Jan 16, 2009 19:25:00 That's the limit? Ugh. That's a revolting restriction on suppressing a rule that shouldn't exist in the first place. So I suppose Rapid Metamagic is it. As for Rapid Metamagic, that's not just RaW. That's how it's meant to be read. It is a higher-level feat, after all.
#16
DeAnno
Jan 17, 2009 4:17:20 Rapid Metamagic is a poisoned pawn, as it prevents you from getting a shitload of nearly free quicken with Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic). The Sorc Metamagic extended casting time is good, not bad, from level 14 on, because without it all your spells are swift actions inside Arcane Spellsurge and you can't use your standards. Do take the level one substitution as it's handy in a pickle, but Arcane Spellsurge + Invisible Spell (Cityscape, +0 Metamagic) is really a huge boon for a high level Sorc, one that Rapid Metamagic actually takes away (the wording of Rapid Metamagic doesn't let you choose not to use it).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gamebird Jan 14, 2009 19:37:36	(Please, no Pun-puns or infinite loop type characters.) I'm in a campaign where we're all playing members of a long-lost tribe of good-aligned kobolds who are destined to bring magic back to the world. Right now, there's no magic, but there will be soon. The DM projects rapid level advancement, like a level every game or every other game and we'll play to 30th level. Eventually we are to morph into dragons. I get the strong impression the DM is not well-versed on the rules (for example, he has no idea of what "epic" means). Multiclass is an option as is stuff out of most books. Personally I'd prefer not to go too far afield. We're 3.5 edition. I wish to build a sorceror who will start play at 5th level and continue until 30th. My preference for spells is utility, although a reliable blasty-spell is nice too. Actually I'd rather someone here with a lot of experience building sorcerors could build it for me (;^) I don't think creation of magic items will be allowed until high level, but as far as that goes, I don't think the DM knows or cares to know the full item creation rules. For one thing, he's not tracking individual xp - he just tells us to level up to the next level, so I don't think there will be any downside to making items xp-wise.
#2 viletta Jan 14, 2009 20:21:25	If you don't mind being a one-trick-wonder, the Heaven and Hell One-Shot Sure-Kill Cannon is a possibility for a kobold. It's all about stacking metamagic cost reducers until you can get off, say, a maximized empowered twin repeating enervating force missile. At level 18, that's... 1201.5221.5=1080 damage with no save (spell resistance applies, though). For comparison, a great wyrm gold dragon has 717 HP. The keys here are Incantatrix (Player's Guide to Faerun) and Arcane Thesis: Force Missile (PHB2 for the feat, Spell Compendium for the spell). Either grabbing Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage) or the metamagic variant sorcerer (source unknown) is also important. Metamagic School Focus: Evocation (Complete Mage) helps, and since you're a kobold, you can grab Practical Metamagic (Races of the Dragon) to really pull it together. Argent Savant (Complete Arcane) costs you a caster level, but it adds a point of damage to every die of damage for your force spells, which is a hefty 16% power boost on top of a thousand damage. The problem with this is, of course, that not only are you pouring everything into blasting, you're pouring everything into a single blasting spell. Diversity is a bit shot. And the power curve for your damage output is exponential, starting slow and spiraling up into the extreme.
#3 gamebird Jan 14, 2009 21:34:02	That sounds like a good start. From your link, it looks like the One-Shot is built on the following feats at the following levels: 1- Iron Will 1- Transdimensional Spell 1- Repeat Spell 1- Twin Spell 3- Arcane Thesis 6- Energy Substitution 7(B)- Energy Admixture 9- Rapid Metamagic 10(B)- Chain Spell 12- Practical Metamagic: Maximize Spell 13(B)- Empower Spell 15- Practical Metamagic: Twin Spell 17(B)- Heighten Spell 18- Practical Metamagic: Repeat Spell I don't have time to look everything up, but is Iron Will really necessary? What does that add to things? And how do you get four feats at first level? Do you stay Sorceror the whole way through, or is there a prestige class you suggest at some point?
#4 viletta Jan 14, 2009 22:07:14	That actually doesn't work out. It was a preliminary sketch, using an elemental orb for raw power instead of the more reliable Force Missile. Arcane Thesis at that level couldn't be applied to the right spell, and Energy Admixture/Substitution will be useless since you're using a force spell. I got the four starting feats using flaws, which are optional rules subject to DM approval. Iron Will is a requirement to enter the Incantatrix class, which is where those bonus feats come from and a source of metamagic level reduction across the board. You can hit the skill requirements for that one easily, and you'll have the metamagic requirement met. Once your casting is pretty much matured, Argent Savant can add a big hunk of extra damage at the cost of one caster level. Its requirements are linked to easy skills and your spell list. So, possible progression to level 20 would be Sorcerer6/Incantatrix10/Argent Savant4. Or put off Argent Savant a couple levels and take the bulk of it in epic. You don't really get much for your core concept from Argent Savant past level one, but it beats the wasteland that is Sorcerer class features. If you convince your DM, your character's backstory can include some serious prison time, including time in an Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel), which confers Iron Will for free. Now, without flaws, you should be able to manage something like... Otyugh Hole- Iron Will 1- Empower Spell 3- Twin Spell 6- Repeat Spell 7(B)- Maximize Spell 9- Arcane Thesis: Force Missile 10(B)- Enervate Spell 12- Metamagic School Focus: Evocation 13(B)- Heighten Spell 15- Practical Metamagic: Maximize Spell 17(B)- Quicken Spell 18- Practical Metamagic: Repeat Spell
#5 jenos Jan 14, 2009 22:09:35	Iron will is a requirement for incanatrix. The feats are gotten through Flaws, found from UA, or d20srd.org, under variant character rules. It prestige classes into incanatrix, which gives you the ability to do all sorts of metamagic shenanigans. That being said, what I suggest is actually doing a couple of caster level boosts. Since you're already going to be turning into dragons eventually, theres A LOT of flavor/abilities tied to kobold/dragon stuff. First off: Dragonwrought. ITs a feat from Races of the Dragon. What the feat does is give you dragon subtype, and you don't get penalties for aging. What this means is that you get a flat +3 Int/Wis/Cha to make use of, for the cost of a feat - HIGHLY suggested, however you do end up as a venerable kobold, which may not be to your liking. Second, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a This gives something called the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, which is also found in Races of the Dragon. What this feat does is put your spellcasting progression on par with that of a wizard, exceedinly useful if you start out at low levels(Which you are). Now things start to get a little cheesier. You can see if you pick up the white dragonspawn template from Dragonlance Campaign Setting, which gives you an LA of +1, in addition to alot of other goodies. The kicker is that it gives you sorceror spellcasting at +1 level, so that you take no caster level loss for lots of amazing abilities(+6 NA, Flight, etc). In addition, if you play with LA Buyoff(Also from UA) you end up a level ahead of the curve(And add in Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, and you're now TWO levels ahead). However, its unlikely you will get this to fly - there are wonky RP issues with it. In addition, theres the Loredrake aspect from Dragons of Eberron. While it seems it was intended for characters with dragon hit dice, kobolds with dragonwrought do qualify for it. What it does is turn your dragon hit dice to d10's from d12's, and give you +2 sorceror spellcasting level. However, as a kobold spellcaster, you don't have any dragon hitdice. Normally I wouldn't think this would be viably arguable to a DM, however you do intend to turn into dragons, and losing 1 HP/level is WELL worth more spellcasting levels. Those are just some ways to boost sorc spellcasting level, say you do loredrake and draconic rite of passage, you'll end up learning 5th level spells when your wizards learn 4th, which is amazing. In addition, as a dragonblood subtype sorceror, you have access to one really great feat: Practical Metamagic. Its a wonderful feat, and it can clearly ve very optimized as the previous post shows, but regardless if you want to take it to that level or not, its still useful for a lot of stuff. Just some ideas for you to look into as a kobold sorc.
#6 NiteCyper Jan 14, 2009 22:18:33	(Please, no Pun-puns or infinite loop type characters.) Normally, I'd quote the post I made before to the same person who said the same thing, but I can't find it. Point: Don't flatter us with praises of how well we welcome newbies to these boards. Finally, the advice: Druid 20. with draconic wildshape Jenos is on the ball.
#7 viletta Jan 14, 2009 22:32:02	Oh, yes. I forgot to tally up levels. For the feat progression I listed, here's what you end up with. 4: Force Missile's base level. +0=4: Empower Spell (+2 base, -1 Inc, -1 AT) +1=5: Twin Spell (+4 base, -1 Inc, -1 AT, -1 School Focus [max 3/day]) +0=5: Repeat Spell (+3 base, -1 Inc, -1 Prac, -1 AT) +0=5: Maximize Spell (+3 base, -1 Inc, -1 Prac, -1 AT) +0=5: Enervate Spell (+2 base, -1 Inc, -1 AT) +3=8: Quicken Spell (+4 base, -1 Inc, -1 AT, +1 for not using School Focus here) That comes out to the 1080 damage I mentioned earlier from a 5th level spell slot (6th after you've spent your three uses of Metamagic School Focus for the day, and 1260 damage with Argent Savant), then another 1080 (or 1260) damage from the same thing quickened sans School Focus out of an 8th level spell, with half damage to adjacent targets. So, every spell slot level 6 and up, plus three level 5 slots, can be used to fuel your thousand-damage cannon. Dropping/delaying a couple instances of Practical Metamagic and/or a metamagic feat, possibly delayed to epic levels, in order to grab Dragonwrought and the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage Jenos mentioned can advance your casting even faster. Kobolds have such cheese available to them.
#8 DeAnno Jan 15, 2009 2:50:45	You might want to look into my work here.
#9 bjorsa Jan 15, 2009 8:13:46	Piling up all that metamagic would add considerably to casting time. Surely you can't expect to afford Accelerate Metamagic for all those metamagic feats?
#10 gamebird Jan 15, 2009 8:44:15	The mailman is very awesome and I greatly appreciate all the background work and detail. It lets me just copy that out, know where to go to check and research, have a headstart on the spell list, and lock n load with the character. If I have time this Saturday or Friday night, I'll set up a compare n contrast with the One-Shot Sure-Kill Canon. I can't play with the Dragonwrought/venerable cheese because we're already started as characters (young adult), playing as d6 kobolds until 4th level when, in order to transition to 5th I'll have to remake my character as a sorceror. Those taking non-casty types will advance as normal for their class. Caster-types get to choose to take an spell-less version of their class or advance as a d6 monster/kobold, which is what I'm doing so far. No point in being a d4 sorceror without spells.
#11 viletta Jan 15, 2009 10:37:13	For the short comparison between the two, The Mailman is more reliable. The One-Shot is more raw power. DeAnno's work is designed to create a reliable blaster through all levels. Mine's designed to get a power level over nine thousand and let loose more raw damage with the sure-kill than any enemy is ever likely to be able to survive. Particularly at lower levels, The Mailman is more efficient. And The Mailman is far more well-researched and fleshed out. However, reworking the feats to include Arcane Thesis can get you close to the sure-kill anyways, especially if you can talk your DM into letting you pay to hunt down Metamagic Storms (Complete Mage) which can grant you the metamagic that The Mailman doesn't have. With just Incantatrix and Arcane Thesis, you can still get off the cannon from an 8th level spell slot, though you wouldn't be able to quicken it. Piling up all that metamagic would add considerably to casting time. Surely you can't expect to afford Accelerate Metamagic for all those metamagic feats? You don't need it. Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature. PHB II. It trades your familiar to get rid of that stupid casting time boost. Also, never, EVER take Accelerated Metamagic unless there's only one metamagic feat you actually care about or you plan to retrain later. Rapid Metamagic does the same thing for all metamagic.
#12 bjorsa Jan 16, 2009 15:18:02	Plan for a high INT score I suppose? And who cares if you go for Rapid or Accelerate?
#13 viletta Jan 16, 2009 17:20:49	Plan for a high INT score I suppose? And who cares if you go for Rapid or Accelerate? Why a high Int score? There's little need for a Sorcerer to have high Int aside from skills, which are secondary. Sorcerers use Cha. And Accelerate gives the build I laid out one sixth the benefit Rapid gives, since Accelerate only applies to a single metamagic feat and rapid applies to all. The metamagic specialist variant gives the full benefit at no feat cost by giving up your familiar. It is indeed a big deal.
#14 bjorsa Jan 16, 2009 17:54:11	Cool. I never read Rapid Meta that way. Looking at it now in Complete Mage, I guess RAW you may be right. Is there a consensus on this here at CharOp? How many meta can one apply then, according to you? It says "When you apply a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell, the spell takes only its normal casting time." A metamagic effect such as ONE metamagic effect? About the Metamagic specialist, the limit is 3 + Int mod per day, so with a low Int it's useless, wouldn't you say?
#15 viletta Jan 16, 2009 19:25:00	That's the limit? Ugh. That's a revolting restriction on suppressing a rule that shouldn't exist in the first place. So I suppose Rapid Metamagic is it. As for Rapid Metamagic, that's not just RaW. That's how it's meant to be read. It is a higher-level feat, after all.
#16 DeAnno Jan 17, 2009 4:17:20	Rapid Metamagic is a poisoned pawn, as it prevents you from getting a shitload of nearly free quicken with Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic). The Sorc Metamagic extended casting time is good, not bad, from level 14 on, because without it all your spells are swift actions inside Arcane Spellsurge and you can't use your standards. Do take the level one substitution as it's handy in a pickle, but Arcane Spellsurge + Invisible Spell (Cityscape, +0 Metamagic) is really a huge boon for a high level Sorc, one that Rapid Metamagic actually takes away (the wording of Rapid Metamagic doesn't let you choose not to use it).