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Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shazamboi Oct 14, 2012 21:09:30	How would one acquire Druidic as a language without being a druid? (Is there a way?) Also, what is the fastest way to acquire 9th level spells in both divine and arcane? Not sure if this works, but I came up with this: Druid 1/Bard 7/ Sublime Chord 1/ Ur-Priest 1/ Fochlucan Lyrist 9, which is level 19. It's a rough sketch, but...
#2 draco1119 Oct 14, 2012 21:37:00	Druid is a secret language, and afaik can only be learned by characters with actual Druid levels.
#3 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 14, 2012 22:18:18	I'm not a caster specialist (...well, I sort of am, but not for arcane/divine), so I don't think it's the fastest way to 9/9, but you can refine a lot of your Fochlucan Lyrist build expertise with material from this thread. For instance, the rough sketch you provided doesn't qualify - no Evasion ability. I'm also always leery about using Ur-Priest due to its unusual qualifications and implications.
#4 StevenO Oct 14, 2012 22:36:52	Can't a Loremaster learn Druidic? That doesn't help you get into FL any faster of course. I'm also going to agree with what Tempest is saying about your build. As far as I'm concerned the fastest way to 9th-level arcane and divine spells, with the least amount of trouble, is going to be Druid3/Wizard3/MT4/ArcaneHeriophant10. Abusing some of those super-progressing PrCs may get you there a level or two faster but most of those builds are far from simple. It may not "cast" spells but by going with a Warlock8/Dragonslayer1/Ur-Priest2/Eldritch Disciple9 I believe you end up with a Warlock's "9th-level spell equivalent" along with the ability to cast 9th-level divine spells.
#5 shazamboi Oct 14, 2012 23:18:37	Thanks everybody! I think I'll go with StevenO's method of acquiring the spells. This way, I'll get also get some wildshape :D.
#6 draco1119 Oct 15, 2012 8:10:16	Can't a Loremaster learn Druidic? With its 5th-level bonus language, it would seem so.
#7 StevenO Oct 16, 2012 17:58:55	Thanks everybody! I think I'll go with StevenO's method of acquiring the spells. This way, I'll get also get some wildshape :D. There is some question about about a Druid3/Wiz3/MT4/AH10 getting wildshape. That is because you don't get Wildshape as a druid and I believe AH only advances you WS ability IF you have it; that's to say it doesn't grant WS but only improves it IF you already have it. Now it could cost you a couple casting levels in Wizard but going Druid5/Wiz3/AH10/MT2 will definitely solve that issue however I'd favor going to Druid 6 so you eventually get Elemental Shape although that will drop your final casting split to 17/14. Of course Druid levels are that good so I don't know what the real problem with that should be.
#8 shazamboi Oct 16, 2012 21:51:39	I've heard about reaching 9th level arcane spells at 1st level with heighten spell. "With enough flaws (about 10 of them), you can get 9th-level arcane spells at level 1, and by level 3, you could get that and also 9th-level divine spells. Unfortunately, that's just an insanely heightened wizard spell with a base level of 2 or 3, and converted to divine via Alternate Source Spell, so no Wishes or Miracles." - Chronos, Ettin in the Playground. How does this work, if this even does?
#9 New-Shadow Oct 16, 2012 22:16:59	My Op Fu is not the strongest around, but I'm not sure if it's even possible. Last I knew, the max number of flaws you could have is 2. Keep in mind that a great deal of optimization is not only a mental challenge by those who post the ideas, but the ideas are ones No Sane DM would ever allow the use of (unless the DM him/herself is using the tricks). Most of what's on these boards are what would be legal and generally okay to use in about 95ish% of games. Minmax and G.i.t.P. is more of the No Sane DM catagory Op Fu.
#10 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 16, 2012 22:35:53	My Op Fu is not the strongest around, but I'm not sure if it's even possible. Last I knew, the max number of flaws you could have is 2. Keep in mind that a great deal of optimization is not only a mental challenge by those who post the ideas, but the ideas are ones No Sane DM would ever allow the use of (unless the DM him/herself is using the tricks). Most of what's on these boards are what would be legal and generally okay to use in about 95ish% of games. Minmax and G.i.t.P. is more of the No Sane DM catagory Op Fu. Here, we used to have the distinction between "Character Optimization" and "Theoretical Optimization". The mathematical analogy is the distinction between an initial-conditions problem and a boundary-values problem. I've seen plenty of stuff on MMB's previous incarnation and on GiantITP that falls in the "character optimization" category; to lump everything they do in with theoretical work is unfair. The main reason, I suspect, that this board sees more CO than TO is because new players tend to gravitate to official boards (i.e. here, for a given value of "official") while experienced players have already formed tighter-knit groups elsewhere. Thus, you get more "How do I Monkey Grip?" threads here (resulting in a lot more basic optimization and how-tos) and "Exploiting Knuth's Up-Arrow Notation with Reciprocal Gyre for Fun and Profit" elsewhere (resulting in new discoveries).
#11 shazamboi Oct 16, 2012 22:38:10	This is not to be used in a game, I'm just wondering if it is possible, and how?
#12 New-Shadow Oct 16, 2012 23:36:40	My Apologies Tempest, most of what I saw on both forums was that way, but as you said (and me as well after I posted), that was unfair of me. I am truly sorry for my mistake. Shazamboi, I'm not quite sure wherre to begin. Hopefully someone can help you, because this is well above my limited expertise.
#13 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 16, 2012 23:55:18	My Apologies Tempest, most of what I saw on both forums was that way, but as you said (and me as well after I posted), that was unfair of me. I am truly sorry for my mistake. Don't worry about it - I wasn't attacking, I was just pointing out that it isn't quite as extreme as you were suggesting, and giving what I thought was a possible reason. This is not to be used in a game, I'm just wondering if it is possible, and how? From the thread I linked on page 1. I can't think of any better method than these. Show The default way to get Speak Language (Druidic) is to take a level of druid. Of course, that's not the only way . . . A. Learn Speak Language (Druidic) There are many ways of doing this. The best is to find a loremaster, ex-druid, or some other individual who has Druidic as a language but does not face the restriction on teaching it to non-druids. The other possibility is suborning a druid into violating their oaths, whether through bribery, mind-affecting magic, trickery, or some other such tactic. Advantages: Little to no cost. Disadvantages: Curious interaction with rules, subject to DM discretion, possibly problematic for some characters. Rules notes: This is an unusual situation where a crunchy requirement can be avoided through roleplay. While the only explicit method to get Speak Language (Druidic) through the rules is a level of druid, if you can find someone who knows it and is willing to teach it, you can acquire it like any other language. Commentary: This is the best way to get Speak Language (Druidic). Generous DMs may allow you to find an ex-druid or loremaster and study it from them without too much pain. With less generous DMs, you can resort to magical coercion or high Bluff/Diplomacy checks to get a druid to teach you. However, this may cause problems for characters of certain alignments: causing another character to betray an oath is not that lawful, and coercing someone into doing so is often not good (though if you can find an evil druid . . .). B. Loremaster Requirements/Advantages/Disadvantages: see above; instant mastery at 1st level or any bonus language at 4th level Rules notes: This relies on a technical reading of the RAW: the loremaster's ability grants any bonus language, including, of course Druidic. Some DMs might exclude Druidic from your options because it is a "secret" language. Alternatively, you may be able to convince your DM to allow you to use the instant mastery ability to get ranks in Speak Language (Druidic). Commentary: If you don't want to advance druid casting and your DM won't allow you to learn Speak Language (Druidic) through other means, this is more or less your only choice. If your DM also allows you to substitute the loremaster's lore for bardic knowledge, this class can give you two of the requirements in four levels. However, the requirements on loremaster itself can put you hard up for class levels: for instance, you don't have enough time to take both spelldancer or divine oracle and loremaster before 12th level, meaning that your entrance to Fochlucan lyrist will be delayed. C. Gift of Languages (RoF) Requirements: sun or moon elf race, character level 1st. Advantages: Speak Language (Druidic) with no class levels. Disadvantages: takes a feat, dubious rules, Faerun only. Rules notes: This is an un-updated 3.0 regional feat from Faerun. A strict reading of the feat leaves it unclear whether the feat allows you to pick up only "normal" languages that aren't native to your region, or all languages, including "secret" languages like Druidic. Commentary: If your DM allows it but doesn't allow to you learn Druidic from an alternate source, you're willing to burn the feat, and you don't want to take a level of druid, this is good; if not, not. D. Bardic Tutelage (CoV) Advantages: Speak Language (Druidic) with no class levels. Disadvantages: Faerun only, restricts choice of regional feats. Rules notes: Using this to get Druidic relies on a literal interpretation of the phrase "As region, plus any one (including dead languges)." Setting notes: Restricted to characters generated in regions in Faerun with bardic colleges. Commentary: If your DM allows this, but doesn't allow learning Druidic from a teacher, this is decent way to acquire Druidic provided you can cope with the restrictions. The only significant cost is the opportunity cost of having to pick from the not-so-good bonus feats allowed to this virtual "region."
#14 awaken_D_M_golem Oct 19, 2012 14:20:26	Variant on Tempest's "A" above ... go to big enough town with guaranteed Druid find said Druid (gather information check) Diplomance Druid with Charm + Hypno Druid becomes Fanatic and stays that way about the original idea Result A: You learn Druidic Result B: Druid reports to superiors what happened, even though he still feels really good about it anyways = new wrinkle to your campaign.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

shazamboi

Oct 14, 2012 21:09:30

How would one acquire Druidic as a language without being a druid? (Is there a way?)
Also, what is the fastest way to acquire 9th level spells in both divine and arcane?
Not sure if this works, but I came up with this:
Druid 1/Bard 7/ Sublime Chord 1/ Ur-Priest 1/ Fochlucan Lyrist 9, which is level 19. It's a rough sketch, but...

draco1119

Oct 14, 2012 21:37:00

Druid is a secret language, and afaik can only be learned by characters with actual Druid levels.

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 14, 2012 22:18:18

I'm not a caster specialist (...well, I sort of am, but not for arcane/divine), so I don't think it's the fastest way to 9/9, but you can refine a lot of your Fochlucan Lyrist build expertise with material from this thread.

For instance, the rough sketch you provided doesn't qualify - no Evasion ability. I'm also always leery about using Ur-Priest due to its unusual qualifications and implications.

StevenO

Oct 14, 2012 22:36:52

Can't a Loremaster learn Druidic? That doesn't help you get into FL any faster of course. I'm also going to agree with what Tempest is saying about your build.

As far as I'm concerned the fastest way to 9th-level arcane and divine spells, with the least amount of trouble, is going to be Druid3/Wizard3/MT4/ArcaneHeriophant10. Abusing some of those super-progressing PrCs may get you there a level or two faster but most of those builds are far from simple.

It may not "cast" spells but by going with a Warlock8/Dragonslayer1/Ur-Priest2/Eldritch Disciple9 I believe you end up with a Warlock's "9th-level spell equivalent" along with the ability to cast 9th-level divine spells.

shazamboi

Oct 14, 2012 23:18:37

Thanks everybody! I think I'll go with StevenO's method of acquiring the spells. This way, I'll get also get some wildshape :D.

draco1119

Oct 15, 2012 8:10:16

Can't a Loremaster learn Druidic?

With its 5th-level bonus language, it would seem so.

StevenO

Oct 16, 2012 17:58:55

Thanks everybody! I think I'll go with StevenO's method of acquiring the spells. This way, I'll get also get some wildshape :D.

There is some question about about a Druid3/Wiz3/MT4/AH10 getting wildshape. That is because you don't get Wildshape as a druid and I believe AH only advances you WS ability IF you have it; that's to say it doesn't grant WS but only improves it IF you already have it.

Now it could cost you a couple casting levels in Wizard but going Druid5/Wiz3/AH10/MT2 will definitely solve that issue however I'd favor going to Druid 6 so you eventually get Elemental Shape although that will drop your final casting split to 17/14. Of course Druid levels are that good so I don't know what the real problem with that should be.

shazamboi

Oct 16, 2012 21:51:39

I've heard about reaching 9th level arcane spells at 1st level with heighten spell.
"With enough flaws (about 10 of them), you can get 9th-level arcane spells at level 1, and by level 3, you could get that and also 9th-level divine spells. Unfortunately, that's just an insanely heightened wizard spell with a base level of 2 or 3, and converted to divine via Alternate Source Spell, so no Wishes or Miracles." - Chronos, Ettin in the Playground.
How does this work, if this even does?

New-Shadow

Oct 16, 2012 22:16:59

My Op Fu is not the strongest around, but I'm not sure if it's even possible. Last I knew, the max number of flaws you could have is 2. Keep in mind that a great deal of optimization is not only a mental challenge by those who post the ideas, but the ideas are ones No Sane DM would ever allow the use of (unless the DM him/herself is using the tricks). Most of what's on these boards are what would be legal and generally okay to use in about 95ish% of games. Minmax and G.i.t.P. is more of the No Sane DM catagory Op Fu.

#10

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 16, 2012 22:35:53

My Op Fu is not the strongest around, but I'm not sure if it's even possible. Last I knew, the max number of flaws you could have is 2. Keep in mind that a great deal of optimization is not only a mental challenge by those who post the ideas, but the ideas are ones No Sane DM would ever allow the use of (unless the DM him/herself is using the tricks). Most of what's on these boards are what would be legal and generally okay to use in about 95ish% of games. Minmax and G.i.t.P. is more of the No Sane DM catagory Op Fu.

Here, we used to have the distinction between "Character Optimization" and "Theoretical Optimization". The mathematical analogy is the distinction between an initial-conditions problem and a boundary-values problem.

I've seen plenty of stuff on MMB's previous incarnation and on GiantITP that falls in the "character optimization" category; to lump everything they do in with theoretical work is unfair. The main reason, I suspect, that this board sees more CO than TO is because new players tend to gravitate to official boards (i.e. here, for a given value of "official") while experienced players have already formed tighter-knit groups elsewhere. Thus, you get more "How do I Monkey Grip?" threads here (resulting in a lot more basic optimization and how-tos) and "Exploiting Knuth's Up-Arrow Notation with Reciprocal Gyre for Fun and Profit" elsewhere (resulting in new discoveries).

#11

shazamboi

Oct 16, 2012 22:38:10

This is not to be used in a game, I'm just wondering if it is possible, and how?

#12

New-Shadow

Oct 16, 2012 23:36:40

My Apologies Tempest, most of what I saw on both forums was that way, but as you said (and me as well after I posted), that was unfair of me. I am truly sorry for my mistake.

Shazamboi, I'm not quite sure wherre to begin. Hopefully someone can help you, because this is well above my limited expertise.

#13

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 16, 2012 23:55:18

My Apologies Tempest, most of what I saw on both forums was that way, but as you said (and me as well after I posted), that was unfair of me. I am truly sorry for my mistake.

Don't worry about it - I wasn't attacking, I was just pointing out that it isn't quite as extreme as you were suggesting, and giving what I thought was a possible reason.

This is not to be used in a game, I'm just wondering if it is possible, and how?

From the thread I linked on page 1. I can't think of any better method than these.

Show

The default way to get Speak Language (Druidic) is to take a level of druid. Of course, that's not the only way . . .

A. Learn Speak Language (Druidic)

There are many ways of doing this. The best is to find a loremaster, ex-druid, or some other individual who has Druidic as a language but does not face the restriction on teaching it to non-druids. The other possibility is suborning a druid into violating their oaths, whether through bribery, mind-affecting magic, trickery, or some other such tactic.

Advantages: Little to no cost.

Disadvantages: Curious interaction with rules, subject to DM discretion, possibly problematic for some characters.

Rules notes: This is an unusual situation where a crunchy requirement can be avoided through roleplay. While the only explicit method to get Speak Language (Druidic) through the rules is a level of druid, if you can find someone who knows it and is willing to teach it, you can acquire it like any other language.

Commentary: This is the best way to get Speak Language (Druidic). Generous DMs may allow you to find an ex-druid or loremaster and study it from them without too much pain. With less generous DMs, you can resort to magical coercion or high Bluff/Diplomacy checks to get a druid to teach you. However, this may cause problems for characters of certain alignments: causing another character to betray an oath is not that lawful, and coercing someone into doing so is often not good (though if you can find an evil druid . . .).

B. Loremaster

Requirements/Advantages/Disadvantages: see above; instant mastery at 1st level or any bonus language at 4th level

Rules notes: This relies on a technical reading of the RAW: the loremaster's ability grants any bonus language, including, of course Druidic. Some DMs might exclude Druidic from your options because it is a "secret" language. Alternatively, you may be able to convince your DM to allow you to use the instant mastery ability to get ranks in Speak Language (Druidic).

Commentary: If you don't want to advance druid casting and your DM won't allow you to learn Speak Language (Druidic) through other means, this is more or less your only choice. If your DM also allows you to substitute the loremaster's lore for bardic knowledge, this class can give you two of the requirements in four levels. However, the requirements on loremaster itself can put you hard up for class levels: for instance, you don't have enough time to take both spelldancer or divine oracle and loremaster before 12th level, meaning that your entrance to Fochlucan lyrist will be delayed.

C. Gift of Languages (RoF)

Requirements: sun or moon elf race, character level 1st.

Advantages: Speak Language (Druidic) with no class levels.

Disadvantages: takes a feat, dubious rules, Faerun only.

Rules notes: This is an un-updated 3.0 regional feat from Faerun. A strict reading of the feat leaves it unclear whether the feat allows you to pick up only "normal" languages that aren't native to your region, or all languages, including "secret" languages like Druidic.

Commentary: If your DM allows it but doesn't allow to you learn Druidic from an alternate source, you're willing to burn the feat, and you don't want to take a level of druid, this is good; if not, not.

D. Bardic Tutelage (CoV)

Advantages: Speak Language (Druidic) with no class levels.

Disadvantages: Faerun only, restricts choice of regional feats.

Rules notes: Using this to get Druidic relies on a literal interpretation of the phrase "As region, plus any one (including dead languges)."

Setting notes: Restricted to characters generated in regions in Faerun with bardic colleges.

Commentary: If your DM allows this, but doesn't allow learning Druidic from a teacher, this is decent way to acquire Druidic provided you can cope with the restrictions. The only significant cost is the opportunity cost of having to pick from the not-so-good bonus feats allowed to this virtual "region."

#14

awaken_D_M_golem

Oct 19, 2012 14:20:26

Variant on Tempest's "A" above ...

go to big enough town with guaranteed Druid
find said Druid (gather information check)
Diplomance Druid with Charm + Hypno
Druid becomes Fanatic and stays that way about the original idea

Result A: You learn Druidic
Result B: Druid reports to superiors what happened, even though he still feels really good about it anyways = new wrinkle to your campaign.