Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 optimystik Mar 16, 2009 8:01:16	Long-time lurker, first-time poster. I love the guides and handbooks here in the CO, many of which inspired me to get off my duff and actually read the splat books to see what all the fuss was about. I just wanted to thank you all, because I've become a much better D&D player because of it! But enough about me. I had a question: If I wanted to build a character around a sort of "beam-spam" idea... a caster that makes people quail when he raises his index finger and blows the smoke off an imaginary gun after battles, which of the three classes I listed in the topic would be better for that? It would be more of an 'archer' than a typical batman/utility caster. The other invocations/spells/powers would be gravy but the class' focus would be just on zapping foes without having a weapon. I also heard about a class called Ocular Adept that I think uses eyebeams. If I'm right, what splatbook is that in, and how does it compare to the ones I already mentioned? Thanks for any help
#2 BloodDragon Mar 16, 2009 8:25:07	I also heard about a class called Ocular Adept that I think uses eyebeams. If I'm right, what splatbook is that in, and how does it compare to the ones I already mentioned? Ocular spell, is a metamagic feat actually and is in Lords of Maddness. I've always preferred Spellwarp sniper but mostly because I'm big a fan of spells.
#3 pithica Mar 16, 2009 8:55:31	Ocular Adept is out of Faiths and Pantheons, and I, personally think it sucks. It's supposedly a 'priest' of the 'great mother' (the (non)deity creator of the Beholder race). It has it's own, crappy, spell progression, and not a +1 CL advancement. Personally, if I had to pick between the three, I'd take Spellwarp Sniper over the other two, and utilize the Acidic Splatter reserve feat from Complete Mage for extra longevity. If any book is allowed, I'd probably go something like Conjurer 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Force Missile Mage 5/War Mage 5 (not necessarily in that order). Drop Enchant and probably Illusion. Use a mix of Acidic Splatter (for longevity) and crazy beefed up magic missiles (for debuffs). You could grab Arcane Thesis-Magic Missile, and Arcane Thesis-Orb of Fire, and tack on things like Fell Drain, Energy Substitution, Chain Spell, Empower, Entangling Spell, and/or Fell Weaken.
#4 cru Mar 16, 2009 8:56:19	For reference: Ocular Adept (Faiths & Pantheons).
#5 lormador Mar 16, 2009 9:57:01	I'm no expert on Warlocks so I'll leave them out. And the trouble with the Spellwarp Sniper builds I've made is that they've never worked out as well as the purer caster-type of build, namely Incantatrix. Which will probably be stronger than the Soulbow, etc. type of thing. You didn't specify books allowed, or starting level, so I'll just throw this out there: 2 Ranger (Moon-Warded) / 1 Fighter (Targeteer) / Soulknife 2 / Soulbow 10 / Warmind 5 Moon-Warded Ranger and Targeteer are from Dragon, you can check out the variant on Crystalkeep. MWR gives Wis to AC at 2nd level in light armor.... and full BA. You lose Rapid Shot, which this build doesn't use anyway. Targeteer gains a special ability called Vital Strike, which lets you use DEX instead of STR on ranged attacks against targets that can be critically hit... Soulbow gives WIS to damage. You can see where I'm going with this, you've got 2 stats to pump AC, 2 stats to pump damage, 1 of them pumps your to hit rolls... it's not a full on dump-all-else synergy build but hey, you're an archer... you need the Spot anyway! And of course you're using (Greater) Psionic Shot / Combat Meditation / Fell Shot / (Greater) Manyshot all the times, with the Warmind levels giving access to Psicrystal Containment goodies. The saves, at level 5, are better than a monk; and they only get farther ahead. Skills aren't half bad either, if you're human with Able Learner you might actually accomplish something with them. There are better builds than this out there, but it's a start. I have a character like this in my current party, it doesn't suck. It sure is no Orbizard though...
#6 jenos Mar 16, 2009 10:18:04	The best way to focus on this would be to use wizard or sorceror. Use the Orb of X line of spells, in which one raises a finger and a ball of energy comes out to smack your foe. Sorc 6/Incanatrix 10 is really the big thing, with lots of practical metamagic and arcane thesis(orb of force) added in, and the heavily metamagic'd spell hits for high damage.
#7 carnivore Mar 16, 2009 14:56:17	another alternative is to use several of these ideas at the same time: Warlock 3/ Warmage 2/ Eldritch theurge 10/ Incantatrix 5 15th lvl Warmage abilities(but able to cast 8th lvl spells(Versatile Caster) @ 19th lvl Caster(Practiced Caster) 13th lvl Warlock abilities(6d6 EB, Invocations: 2 Greater, 3 lesser, 3 least) most of the fun Incantatrix stuff... also you can add some extra things: Reserve feats for more fun or try this: Soulknife 2/ Wizard 5/ Soulbow 1/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Unseen Seer 7 unlimited shots from Soulknife.... save spells for Major damage with metamagic effects and Sneak Attack damage.... also can use reserve Spells... and get 9th lvl Spells :D
#8 dr_rocktopus Mar 16, 2009 17:36:33	My read on the matter mostly agrees with the above.... But my experience with warlocks has been terrible. I'm sure they're a great class, but I just never quite got over the fact that mostly, I did the same thing over and over while praying it was enough. With Spellwarp Sniper which is my personal favorite of the bunch, sure, you're playing the Green Arrow instead of Batman, but you're still a superhero and you really DO get straitjacket arrows. Some tips and a word of warning: While I love ray spells, they're not entirely a free lunch. There are a number of ways to pack in immunity to them, among other things. You have, often, stupidly long range compared to mundanes. If at all possible, play a mounted spellwarp sniper. Ideally, a flying mount. If at all possible, you'll want a second caster around. If at all possible, you'll want some HP. Somehow people, mostly gamemasters but sometimes fellow players, feel better trying to murder archers than they do about murdering mages.
#9 true_shinken Mar 16, 2009 18:17:14	Spellwarp Sniper has a lot more damage and utility than the others. Soulbow has the most HP and can blast all day long. Also, better skill points. Warlock has probably the worst damage output out of the three (unless you use Hellfire Warlock) but can blast all day long and also has a lot of utility as well. Of course, you could use any of the three to build Megaman ^^
#10 jenos Mar 16, 2009 19:13:39	Spellwarp Sniper is largely a waste. Rays, for the most part, suck, since they can get affected by SR. Spellwarp Sniper won't let you warp the Orb of X line of spells, which tend to be the most effective for damage since they have no save or sr. In addition, Spellwarp Sniper doesn't do much for a build. The sneak attack is minimal, and unreliable at higher levels. Ray mastery is a joke. Its far, far better to take 5 more levels of incanatrix over spellwarp sniper. To really make the most of soulbows, you have to make sure your DM does allow TWF with Mind Arrows. If he does, you can rack up quite the damage with it. Otherwise, they're mediocre, though Kalashtar Soulbows aren't half bad.
#11 optimystik Mar 16, 2009 19:33:31	Great feedback so far! Ocular Adept is out of Faiths and Pantheons, and I, personally think it sucks. It's supposedly a 'priest' of the 'great mother' (the (non)deity creator of the Beholder race). It has it's own, crappy, spell progression, and not a +1 CL advancement. Blech. Thanks for the tip. OA is out then. :P You didn't specify books allowed, or starting level, so I'll just throw this out there: Starting level is 3. Books allowed is a bit of a grab-bag: Core, Completes and extended Core (PHB/DMG2) are definitely in, and I can even bring in weirder stuff like HoH and Frostburn if I have a cool enough concept and no cheese. So I asked my DM "are lasers cool enough?" and she told me to go nuts ;) There are better builds than this out there, but it's a start. I have a character like this in my current party, it doesn't suck. It sure is no Orbizard though... I like your build a lot actually, even though it gets into the mindslinging part kind of late. Normally I avoid rangers like the plague (way too overdone) but this build would actually make me want to play one. I forget, does Soulbow let you actually do anything with those power points, or are they just tacked on like they are with SK? If not, I'd hate to have them just sitting there. Would I still qualify for Soulbow if I picked up the Hidden Talent variant here instead of Wild Talent, and would it be a good idea if I wanted a power or two? The best way to focus on this would be to use wizard or sorceror. Use the Orb of X line of spells, in which one raises a finger and a ball of energy comes out to smack your foe. I always pictured the orb spells requiring more of a lobbing motion. Anyway, I know the orb spells are powerful, but I really wanted to focus on more "laser-y" effects with this guy. another alternative is to use several of these ideas at the same time: Warlock 3/ Warmage 2/ Eldritch theurge 10/ Incantatrix 5 15th lvl Warmage abilities(but able to cast 8th lvl spells(Versatile Caster) @ 19th lvl Caster(Practiced Caster) 13th lvl Warlock abilities(6d6 EB, Invocations: 2 Greater, 3 lesser, 3 least) most of the fun Incantatrix stuff... also you can add some extra things: Reserve feats for more fun or try this: Soulknife 2/ Wizard 5/ Soulbow 1/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Unseen Seer 7 unlimited shots from Soulknife.... save spells for Major damage with metamagic effects and Sneak Attack damage.... also can use reserve Spells... and get 9th lvl Spells :D For your first build, I'd rather avoid Trix if I can, and if I'm going Warlock/ET I'd definitely want some dark invocations in there... Reserve feats are an excellent idea! I love your second build, combines Batman power with a very insidious flavor :D More responses forthcoming.
#12 optimystik Mar 16, 2009 19:42:50	If any book is allowed, I'd probably go something like Conjurer 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Force Missile Mage 5/War Mage 5 (not necessarily in that order). What book is Force Missile Mage in? I have another concept that it might be just the ticked for. Some tips and a word of warning: While I love ray spells, they're not entirely a free lunch. There are a number of ways to pack in immunity to them, among other things. You have, often, stupidly long range compared to mundanes. If at all possible, play a mounted spellwarp sniper. Ideally, a flying mount. If at all possible, you'll want a second caster around. If at all possible, you'll want some HP. Somehow people, mostly gamemasters but sometimes fellow players, feel better trying to murder archers than they do about murdering mages. Duly noted, thank you! Spellwarp Sniper has a lot more damage and utility than the others. Soulbow has the most HP and can blast all day long. Also, better skill points. Warlock has probably the worst damage output out of the three (unless you use Hellfire Warlock) but can blast all day long and also has a lot of utility as well. I agree, warlock leaves a bit to be desired in the damage department. Hellfire would help with that, or I could just bump up the cool factor with a PrC like Child of Night or Disciple of Asmodeus. Of course, you could use any of the three to build Megaman ^^ Is there an actual build with that name? Can you link it? To really make the most of soulbows, you have to make sure your DM does allow TWF with Mind Arrows. If he does, you can rack up quite the damage with it. Otherwise, they're mediocre, though Kalashtar Soulbows aren't half bad. Sounds cool, but I doubt I could get that one to fly. John Woo Soulbow probably isn't going to make it to my table No Eberron either, although Faerun is fair game. Question: What race should I be considering? (Again, the books allowed are: Core, Extended Core, (PHB/DMG2), Completes, Tomes, Faerun and a few others like HoH, Frostburn, LM and LoM. No Eberron allowed.)
#13 jenos Mar 16, 2009 19:55:57	Faerun means incanatrix, its key. You can get some nasty damage via Sorceror, incanatrix, and metamagic stacking. See here and here for some ideas on metamagic stacking to deal damage. No eberron means a lot of the soulbow stuff are out, I'd definitely advise against it.
#14 dr_rocktopus Mar 17, 2009 0:28:10	That said, the issue with the Incanatrix is that there's a nice solid chance you won't end up doing anything remotely like what you want to be doing. May I introduce you to my simpler friend, Halruuan Elder from shining south? It's not the incanatrix, but it's still superb, and it ties in thematically with the use of odd magic for stylistic approaches over raw efficiency. It will also fit nicely with Spellwarp Sniper, which I do really think is quite good, and it has a nice solid break-point at 4th level. My build for it looks like this: Beth, Unoptimized Human + Draconic Template Uses wizard, incanatrix, and Halruuan Elder Leveling order and feats 1 wizard +1 + 1 +2 from flaws +scribe scroll 2 wizard 3 wizard + 1 4 wizard 5 wizard + 1 6 Incanatrix + 2 7 Incanatrix 8 halruan 9 halruan + 1 10 halruan 11 halruan 12 halruan + 1 Run-down of class features that we consider relevant: Wizard. Seriously, can we just call being a wizard the class feature of wizards? You'll probably want to take some cool alternative feature to replace your familiar. Two doses of Adroit casting: One at 8th, one at 11th. Each lowers a meta-magic's adjust by one, permanently. Signature spell lets us take practical meta-magic at 12 by selecting two third level spells to be spontaneous. You might consider the specialist wizard approach, if you feel it fits. Feats in order: Spell Thematics Halruaan Adept Sanctum Spell (Forgive me, Gygax) Scribe Scroll, from wizard Spell Focus --------------- 3rd Iron will (would like to find a way to get it for free) --------------- 5th level bonus feat: Split Ray --------------- 6th Twin Spell, Metamagic school focus --------------- 9th Arcane Thesis for Enervate ------------ 12th Practical Metamagic (Twin spell) thanks to draconic and signature spells We take adroit casting on Twin Spell and Split ray, because that's our meat and potatoes. Why no empower on the feat list? Simple. It's dirt cheap to pick up our Empowered Spell Shard (pg 96 MIC) for our ray which can be as high as fourth level thanks to sanctum spell outside our sanctum. We can use our chosen favorite for no slot adjustment three times a day as a third level spell from a fourth level spell slot, and as a fourth level spell spell the rest of the time. The fourth level spell it's supposed to be anyway. I think. It hurts my head. A lot. I tend to use enervation, as this takes care of your blasting needs without even requiring evocation, and lets you focus the entire rest of your spell list on delicious, wonderful, beautiful utility. It even lets you turn a simple level one skeleton into an unstoppable tank. Today's lesson. Never let sanctum spell in your campaign, because it does things the game rules are entirely unable to properly handle. Yay! Whee! I don't even know what to say about this. Using Metamagic School Focus may prove difficult, actually, but it does help make your other spells benefit from your metamagics, I suppose. It's really a matter of personal taste and feelings. Getting a GM to accept that sanctum spell DOES work this way may be difficult. About six different canonical interpretations of WHAT sanctum spell does exist. It's pretty bad times. The character really strongly desires a rod of quicken. 35K for a lesser. An empowered spell shard for Enervation is required. 6k Books you will need that are hard to find: Complete mage Shining South MIC is needed but easy. Sanctum spell is easy to find a write-up of.
#15 jenos Mar 17, 2009 7:15:32	Spellwarp Sniper is mediocre at best. Really, what does it give thats useful? Spellwarp is a meh ability at most - all it does is let you turn an area spell with a ref save into a single target spell without one. That ability is useless, because outside of Wings of Flurry, there really isn't a lot of exceptional area spells you'd want to spellwarp. Sudden Raystrike adds minimal amounts of damage - you're looking at 4 levels for a whopping 7 damage at most per spell. 4 levels of another class can let you add more metamagic, which is far, far more than 7 damage. Precise Shot as a bonus feat? Relatively minor ability, not worth levels in this terrible class. And Ray Mastery lets you empower 1/day, at level 5. This class on a whole is a trap. At most, a single level dip is all you need for Spellwarp. Honestly, if you want sneak attack/sudden strike, go Unseen Seer->Divine Oracle to boost your divination CL, and used Advanced Learning to pick up Hunter's Eye. Unseen Seer gives you a lot more goodies than Spellwarp Sniper, and you can pull of doing the whole trapfinding/sneaky bit as well.
#16 true_shinken Mar 17, 2009 9:33:02	Spellwarp Sniper is mediocre at best. Really, what does it give thats useful? Spellwarp is a meh ability at most - all it does is let you turn an area spell with a ref save into a single target spell without one. That ability is useless, because outside of Wings of Flurry, there really isn't a lot of exceptional area spells you'd want to spellwarp. Not true. While obviously subpar if compared to Incantatrix (which anything short of Planar Shephard is, actually), Spellwarp Sniper gets 3/4 bab and full casting, 4 skill points per level and a d6 Hit Die and it increases sneak attack range to 60ft. And of course there are other area spells worthy of spellwarping - Hammer of Righteousness and Maw of Chaos are both uncapped. But really, just allowing Wings of Flurry to hit without a Reflex save is enough. And I don't think Spell Resistance is something you should worry when you can easily set your caster level up in the 30s with minimal effort. Of course when you talk about a spellcaster in general Incantatrix is the best PrC. But for the purpose of the laser-tag thing, I'd say Spellwarp Sniper fits a lot more thematically and actually does it better.
#17 jenos Mar 17, 2009 9:58:27	Incanatrix is superior for spell blasting - metamagic stacking is key to dealing damage, and incanatrix is far superior. Even if you don't use Incanatrix, Rocktopus' suggestion of Halruaan Elder is also good. The key to do anything with blasting is stacking metamagic to all hell - you might be able to outdamage something like a swift hunter if you do so. Getting SA dice is both unreliable and weak. Frankly, without the ability to fire multiple hits per round, SA just doesn't work. Firing a single ray or two, with some SA dice tagged on, doesn't do much more damage, and you end up being significantly shown up by the other group members who are optimized for damage. A straight fighter archer is going to outdamage you unless you stack metamagic. I suppose there are other spells worthy of being spellwarped - but the point is still that the latter 4 levels of spellwarped sniper are a waste(I feel the first is a waste as well, but I can buy the argument of removing ref saves). Medium BAB is negligible - you're rarely going to be in a position where BAB matters if you hit beyond the early levels, and frankly, Arcane Fusion with True Strike takes care of matters easily enough. There are simply far better options to take over Spellwarped Sniper 2-5. Perhaps it might fit thematically, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a weak class.
#18 pithica Mar 17, 2009 10:02:58	What book is Force Missile Mage in? I have another concept that it might be just the ticked for. It's in the Dragon Compendium. War Mage is in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting.
#19 keyes2k4 Mar 17, 2009 10:15:18	Carnivore's Warmage/warlock/eldritch theurge/incantatrix build looks like a killer. You'll have options for rays up close and rays far away, as well as other options (nukes, globs, moderate area control spells). It may be cheesey, but pretty much everything in that build is from complete arcane, which is on your DM's 'ok' list. I am going to throw in psion (namely kinetecist) right now if you want to ray people. Its definitely not as powerful as a sorcerer at some stuff, but most (emphasis most) creatures don't have psi-resistance, so the level 1 power energy ray could cover your lazer requirement. Take overchannel, metapower, empower power, and the feat that allows psionic focus on a move action, and you can turn a 1d6 ray into upwards of 28d6 damage by 20th level (cackles maniacally). Oh, and you'll also get like 35 other powers by 20th level, which will also have their own potential.
#20 jenos Mar 17, 2009 10:19:05	Keyes, the default setting is psionics-magic transparency ON, which means that anything with SR has equivalent PR. Unless the Dm specifically changes that, it doesn't work.
#21 true_shinken Mar 17, 2009 10:19:43	Incanatrix is superior for spell blasting - metamagic stacking is key to dealing damage, and incanatrix is far superior. I never said Incantatrix wasn't superior - Incantatrix is better at just about anything. Just mentioned other spellwarper abilities you neglected. Just the better skill points and HP would be good in many games. With Able Learner you could easily fill the role of skill-monkey as well as archer. Metamagic stacking costs you your higher spell levels, so Spellwarp Sniper has better durability, being able to blast longer. In a 'perfect' game with four encounters a day of course Incantatrix is better. In a real campaign where you make skill checks, are ambushed and sometimes have to be in like 10 encounters before resting... I'd go with Spellwarp Sniper for a blaster (though I'd much rather play a gish). Just saying I agree with you here, really. But I still think you are underestimating the usefulness of this class.
#22 jenos Mar 17, 2009 10:26:59	My main contention is that everything spellwarp sniper does, Unseen Seer does better. 5 levels of Unseen Seer will result in more skill points, more usefulness, better defenses. At most, a single level dip into Spellwarp Sniper is all you need, for the spellwarp ability. Also, 10 encounters a day means you should play a warlock. Even a spellwarp sniper will be drained with that many encounters by around encounter 6 or 7. My point is that metamagic stacking is the way to deal damage. Theres a lot of different ways this can be done. Be an incanatrix. Be a Halruuan Elder. Be an Anima Mage. Be a recaster. Be whatever classes you want, as long as they allow you to more freely use metamagic. A Wizard/Sorc UM will also be pretty good at this. Wizard 3/Master Specialist 1/Sorceror 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Master Specialist +2/Archmage 2 or Wizard 4/Sorc 1/UM 10/Paragnostic 4/Wiz +1 Since you can spontaneously cast spells, you get access to practical metamagic, lots and lots of spells(so you can get by the endurance issue posed by True Shinken), and are far, far, far better at actual blasting then a spellwarped sniper. Edit: You might want to go Sorc 4/Wiz 1/UM 10 as your base, using Arcane Preparation to qualify. Sorc nets you some of the more useful blasting spells, like Arcane Fusion/Arcane Spellsurge/Wings of Flurry.
#23 keyes2k4 Mar 17, 2009 10:31:31	Keyes, the default setting is psionics-magic transparency ON, which means that anything with SR has equivalent PR. Unless the Dm specifically changes that, it doesn't work. That actually makes it better. True, I didn't realize what you meant with that before, and it sucks that SR=PR, but on the other hand dispel psionics, detect psionics and use psionic device just got a whole lot better on a psion. Even if SR=PR, psions still have good lazers, too.
#24 jenos Mar 17, 2009 10:36:50	Psions do make decent blasters. On the other hand, its hard for them to reach the potential level of damage that metamagic stacking can achieve. Its almost like psionics is balanced, or something. :P
#25 carnivore Mar 17, 2009 11:22:32	compared to Magic(Arcane or Divine)... Psionics is very balanced, in fact it is one of the few Balanced aspects of the game... the problem is: Idiot DMs, ... that are close-minded and dont bother to actually reason on the system in question if you can include Psionics.... try this: Human Warmage 1/ Ardent 2/ Cerebremancer 10/ Spellwarp Sniper 1/ Unseen Seer 6 with feats: Heighten Spell Versatile Caster Practiced Caster(Warmage) Practiced Manifester(Ardent) Arcane Disciple(Celestia) Celestia Planar Domain Celestia Domain Granted Power: Planar Handbook, page 87. 1 Light of Lunia. Planar Handbook, page 100. 1 Shield of Faith. Player’s Handbook, page 278. 2 Bear’s Endurance. Player’s Handbook, page 203. 2 Shield Other. Player’s Handbook, page 278. 3 Magic Vestment. Player’s Handbook, page 251. 3 Summon Monster III.* Player’s Handbook, page 286. 4 Divine Power. Player’s Handbook, page 224. 4 Magic Weapon, Greater. Player’s Handbook, page 251. 5 Righteous Might. Player’s Handbook, page 273. 5 Summon Monster V.* Player’s Handbook, page 286. 6 Blade Barrier. Player’s Handbook, page 205. 6 Bear’s Endurance, Mass. Player’s Handbook, page 203. 7 Regenerate. Player’s Handbook, page 270. 7 Summon Monster VII.* Player’s Handbook, page 287. 8 Power Word Stun. Player’s Handbook, page 263. 8 Shield of Law. Player’s Handbook, page 278. 9 Foresight. Player’s Handbook, page 233. 9 Summon Monster IX.* Player’s Handbook, page 288. * Cast as a lawful good spell only.
#26 true_shinken Mar 17, 2009 11:26:55	My main contention is that everything spellwarp sniper does, Unseen Seer does better. 5 levels of Unseen Seer will result in more skill points, more usefulness, better defenses. At most, a single level dip into Spellwarp Sniper is all you need, for the spellwarp ability. Totally agreed. Spellwarp Sniper does get more HP but that's not important. Nothing prevents you from using both, though.
#27 ikildkenny Mar 17, 2009 12:27:50	correct me if i'm wrong but afaik spellwarp only modifies spells to max Spellwrp sniper level or not? @ the op I personally prefer the Soulbow - a two level dip of monk and Zen archery nets you with a nice WIS-synergy and leves you effectively with 2(3) Attributes you really need: Soulknife2/Monk2/fighter1/Soulbow10/X5 X is Really your own choice but usind Soulknife to Finish looks logical to me - better enhancement Bonus on your Arrows Play as Kalashtar and take these two feats whose names i forgot which give you +6 to your effective Soulbow/soulknife level in terms of enhancement
#28 volatris Mar 17, 2009 12:44:17	Besides wings of flurry, the other worthwhile spell to spellwarp is great thunderclap. If you make your ranged touch attack, they're knocked prone, no other rolls involved.
#29 dr_rocktopus Mar 17, 2009 13:33:29	I think it's important to mention that Eberron is out, which basically ruins Soulbow for us. I like Halruuan Elder a lot, because it has a really superb breakpoint at fourth level. Incanatrix is something you'll probably want to go all the way up in, and while it's benefits are superb and in many ways the gold standard for any kind of PrC, that is a lot of levels for a theme character to burn. Notes: Spellwarping is indeed dependent on your SwS class levels, as it can only warp spells of up to that level. Which is a shame, because it means unless you take sanctum spell (and why wouldn't you? :: roll eyes : you can't turn antimagic field into anti-magic ray debuff. Come to think of it, that might make a pretty cool mage-hunting mage. Can anyone think of a solid way around the various ray shield effects? My only really serious issue with this is that there's a good chance you'll be hurt trying to get into spellwarp sniper, and it's true there are better classes. The issue is that I'm not sure there are better classes for building Megaman unless we go back to warlocks, and really? Really?
#30 phaedrusxy Mar 17, 2009 13:35:20	Notes: Spellwarping is indeed dependent on your SwS class levels, as it can only warp spells of up to that level. Which is a shame, because it means unless you take sanctum spell (and why wouldn't you? :: roll eyes : you can't turn antimagic field into anti-magic ray debuff. Could you get around that with things like Uncanny Trickster, which advances class features of other classes?
#31 jenos Mar 17, 2009 14:07:26	Yea, Uncanny Trickster(And bloodlines) would do that. However, the class is still mediocre for the intent of blasting - though spellwarping aoe spells to stick on foes(Like Antimagic field) is always fun.
#32 dr_rocktopus Mar 17, 2009 14:38:58	:: pauses :: Wait a second. I think we have something neat here, actually. At sixth and up, we get into some really interesting options for spell-warping things which is why there's a lock on it at fifth level. I don't think megaman needs to JUST be a blaster. Things like an antimagic raygun are within the spirit of megaman's many costumes, and we'll still get plenty of blasting power. It's definitely true that spellwarp is not a great way to do damage, but we might be able to stretch it a little and get some really superb utility out of it. It does offer a unique ability and my experience with game systems is that any truly unique ability in a large system is going to be worth exploiting. I mean, can we shape solid fog as a ray spell, making it completely asymmetric? What does that even do? I think we need to figure out the answers to some basic questions about this, before we suggest a build or even consider ruling out spellwarp. What happens if we ray-shape prismatic spray? Are they hit with everything? I have no idea. Questions: Where is uncanny trickster from? Can we get a precise read on what can be spellwarped, following rules as intended, and what happens in cases of shaping spells with odd or unusual effects? @OP: How far are we leveling this build? What wealth guidelines may we use? How far do you feel like going? Are we outside your original concept at this point?
#33 carnivore Mar 17, 2009 14:54:39	even without Eberron material..... Soulbow will be just fine... try this: ECL 12 Soulbow build Anthropomorphic Bat ... (+0 LA,Small size, +6 Wis,-4 Str,-2 Cha, Fly 20'(Average)) Cloistered Cleric 1/ Soulknife 2/ Fighter 2/ Soulbow 7 5 Str(9 base - 4 racial) 18 Dex(14 base +4 gloves) 12 Con(12 base) 12 Int(12 base) 30 Wis(17 base +3 lvls +6 Racial +4 amulet) 6 Cha(8 base -2 racial) Domains: Elf .... gain Point Blank Shot Time ... gain Imp Initiative Knowledge ... give up Domain access to gain Knowledge Devotion feat progression: Cloistered Cleric 1 ........... Education, Point blank shot, Knowledge Devotion, Imp Initiative Soulknife 1 .................... Wild Talent, Weapon Focus(Mindblade) Fighter(Hit and Run variant) 1 ...................... Improved Flight(average>Good), Rapid Shot Soulknife 2 Fighter 2 ...................... Precise Shot Soulbow 1..................... Mountain Warrior, Bowslinger Soulbow 2 Soulbow 3..................... Zen Archery Soulbow 4..................... Many Shot Soulbow 5..................... Woodland Archer Soulbow 6 Soulbow 7..................... Improved Flight(good>Perfect), Imp Rapid Shot BAB 8+2(Soulbow) = +10 full Attack: +34 = +10 BAB +10 Wis +2 Competence + 1 haste +1 PBS +1 WpF +1 higher ground +1 size+ 2 enhancement(bane bonus) +5 Insight(Knowledge Dev) Full round Attack: +34/+34/+34/+29 damage: 34 per Mind Arrow =Mind arrow 1d6(3.5) +10 Wis +1 Competence +5 Insight +4 Enhancement(bane)+2d6(bane)(7)+ 1d6(3.5)(Elemental:flaming,etc) items: 16000gp +4 Amulet of Wis 16000gp +4 Gloves of Dex 25000gp Greater Bracers of Archery 13000gp Monks Belt 12000gp boots of Speed 2500gp Eyes of the Eagle 2000gp Handy Haversack ................ 86500gp spent:
#34 true_shinken Mar 17, 2009 15:01:31	I am Megaman, here's my megaplan... ...YOU DIE!
#35 carnivore Mar 17, 2009 15:05:53	awesome pic.... i might borrow it for a Build later :D
#36 phaedrusxy Mar 17, 2009 15:09:31	Questions: Where is uncanny trickster from? Complete Scoundrel. Legacy Champion does the same weird "progress all class features" thing, but for 8 levels instead of 2. So you could actually get 9th level "warped" spells with it. These classes and/or Bloodlines are a trick often used for short PrCs with weird abilities based on class level like this, such as War Weaver, Hellfire Warlock, etc.
#37 dr_rocktopus Mar 17, 2009 15:50:59	Basically, we'd like to just one-dip spellwarp, and progress it while moving our other classes forward as well. this means that one way or another, we need to progress spellwarp for a total of seven levels, because seventh level is where a lot of the good stuff to warp is. I'll re-read the precise nature of spellwarp and how it interacts with non-damage aoes and debuffs when I'm not AFB. We'd also like to be able to stack metamagic on as well. I know of four ways to stack metamagic that are not terribly involved: Divine MetaMagic +Nightsticks :Requires divine feats, turn\rebuke, and dmm itself. Incanatrix : The accepted solution, heavily reliant on progressing in the class. A superb class, perhaps one of the single best in the entire game. Kinda cheesy. Halruuan Elder: A lesser solution that is easier to dip than Incanatrix, and less involved to deploy. Eats a fair number of feats, delivers rewards immediately. Sanctum Spell + Arcane Thesis + Practical Metamagic: Stacks with all of the above options, but is extremely feat hungry. Sanctum effectively reduces all your metamagic costs by one. Thesis reduces all costs on a spell by one. Practical (or is it practiced?) reduces all uses of a metamagic by one in cost. Our Goal: Rayspray without losing utility, while doing silly and wondrous things. His Goal: Something cool and fun with a solid mechanical backing that sprays bolts of fury. My Goal: Figure out just how weird spellwarp really is. Spellwarped bladebarrier?! My Verdict: We wait on his decision, since that soul bow buildis pretty darn solid, it just uses things like the anthro-template, and doesn't rock as hard at lower levels.
#38 phaedrusxy Mar 17, 2009 15:56:33	You can add Anima Mage (Tome of Magic) and Magical Trickster (Complete Scoundrel) to the things that let you use metamagic for free.
#39 dr_rocktopus Mar 17, 2009 16:06:40	Well it seems that spellwarping requires a duration of instantaneous and an actual AoE, so we may be out of luck in a lot of more interesting respects. I'll try to see if that is still true or if there's an easy way around it, but it seems to be. We may have another option, though. Do we know if arcane archer works with soulbow?
#40 jenos Mar 17, 2009 16:31:53	The enhancement bonus doesn't stack, so the class is a wash for Soulbows.
#41 dr_rocktopus Mar 17, 2009 18:59:07	I'm not very sold on the soulbow, they seem like a slightly lamed one trick pony along the same lines as their soul-knife roots. On the other hand, spellwarp has seriously painful limitations, even if you use uncanny trickster, bloodlines, or legacy champion to step past the level lock. I suppose my major remaining contribution for now is the fact that Ring Gates are hilarious when you have next to no expenditures, your projectile weighs nothing, and your range is...... considerable. Ring Gate Cheese: It's about eighteen inches in diameter. That's a little big, but.... embed it in a friendly fighter or warforged's armor, perhaps at one end of a gauntlet or on a buckler which conveniently will be about 18 inches across itself. Why settle for just Megaman when you can get Zero along the ride for free*? They're useful for a thousand other reasons, too! How much, for example, does the solid fog from the much beloved spell of the same name actually weigh? And for smuggling, they're almost impossible to beat as you can just disguise your buckler+ring as a normal magical shield by covering the aperture, or just hide it at the bottom of your portable hole, beneath pounds of other loot, because conveniently enough it's just a iron ring while it's in there. *And by free I mean 40k
#42 dr_rocktopus Mar 17, 2009 19:09:08	[scrub] accidental double post.
#43 thevius Mar 17, 2009 23:43:41	another alternative is to use several of these ideas at the same time: Warlock 3/ Warmage 2/ Eldritch theurge 10/ Incantatrix 5 15th lvl Warmage abilities(but able to cast 8th lvl spells(Versatile Caster) @ 19th lvl Caster(Practiced Caster) 13th lvl Warlock abilities(6d6 EB, Invocations: 2 Greater, 3 lesser, 3 least) most of the fun Incantatrix stuff... also you can add some extra things: Reserve feats for more fun I was trying to salvage this build for a low level (starting 2, expecting to go up to 10 or so) ranged damage dealer. (Yes, I'm trying to make a low level blaster, please don't hurt me.) However, I noticed a snag as Eldritch Theurge requires 2nd level spells and +2d6 EB... How do you qualify for Eldritch Theurge with only 2 levels of Warmage? Normally you'd need at least 4 levels just to reach that? The Versatile Spellcaster from RotD specifies that it must be to cast a spell you know that is one level higher, so I think I'm missing the fine print somewhere. If it somehow does work I'd be able to snag spellblast at 8th for some decent caster level 5 + invocation level 6 for about 3d8+3d6 with a humble lesser orb spell.
#44 dr_rocktopus Mar 17, 2009 23:56:22	My Beth build, as described, is a twelfth level blaster who can pretty reliably hammer out the pain in the form of negative levels. Would you like to look over a version in a separate thread so we don't derail this one anymore than we already have? She can be stripped down and laid out a little differently to work for 10&Under.
#45 carnivore Mar 18, 2009 4:25:02	I was trying to salvage this build for a low level (starting 2, expecting to go up to 10 or so) ranged damage dealer. (Yes, I'm trying to make a low level blaster, please don't hurt me.) However, I noticed a snag as Eldritch Theurge requires 2nd level spells and +2d6 EB... How do you qualify for Eldritch Theurge with only 2 levels of Warmage? Normally you'd need at least 4 levels just to reach that? The Versatile Spellcaster from RotD specifies that it must be to cast a spell you know that is one level higher, so I think I'm missing the fine print somewhere. Warmages Know all of thier spells as soon as they enter the class .... it is in the description in Complete Arcane... also it is supported by the Official WotC FAQ... found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a however i dont rely just on that... but use something more solid... Heighten Spell combined with Versatile caster... means i can cast a Heightened 1st lvl Spell(which i absolutely Know) as a 2nd lvl Spell using 2 1st lvl slots ... heres support Can a sorcerer combine Versatile Spellcasting with a metamagic feat to cast a spell whose level is higher than the level of spells he’d normally be able to cast? This is possible. For example, a 1st-level sorcerer using the Versatile Spellcaster feat can give up two 1st-level spells to cast extended shield. although i didnt list the feat for that build.... i would make them similar to this: Any +0 LA Race Warlock 3/ Warmage 2/ Eldritch theurge 10/ Incantatrix 5 Heighten Spell Versatile Caster Practiced Caster(Warmage) Arcane Disciple(Celestia) Iron Will Summon Elemental Open Feat Open Feat Open Metamagic Feat(Incantatrix Bonus) Open Metamagic Feat(Incantatrix Bonus) Open Metamagic Feat(Incantatrix Bonus) Open Metamagic Feat(Incantatrix Bonus) :D
#46 Balthanon Mar 20, 2009 9:08:44	I agree, warlock leaves a bit to be desired in the damage department. Hellfire would help with that, or I could just bump up the cool factor with a PrC like Child of Night or Disciple of Asmodeus. I created a Child of Night warlock for an epic game recently (which only allowed one prestige class) and had a lot of fun playing with it. (Though admittedly, I didn't actually use my "laser" during the entire first session. ) One of the feats that I grabbed for that which probably would have been more fun at lower levels is Blend into Darkness from Drow of the Underdark. While it was intended for drow using their darkness racial spell-like ability, technically the darkness that warlocks pick up qualifies you for the feat and essentially gives you Hide in Plain Sight as low as 1st level. The only thing that might really impede it is the language about "spending a use", which implies a limited resource when warlocks have infinite uses of darkness. It makes for an interesting character though, allowing you to effectively snipe from 10 feet away from an enemy when combined with the large Hide bonuses provided by Child of Night. Instinctive Darkness (same book) is also kind of fun, making darkness into an immediate action-- it would be better if darkness didn't suck so much on its own. (I took the invocation mainly to qualify for Shadowmaster in epic, and built a bit around that feat.)
#47 Ethican2 Mar 23, 2009 3:41:57	even without Eberron material..... Soulbow will be just fine... try this: ECL 12 Soulbow build Anthropomorphic Bat ... (+0 LA,Small size, +6 Wis,-4 Str,-2 Cha, Fly 20'(Average)) Cloistered Cleric 1/ Soulknife 2/ Fighter 2/ Soulbow 7 5 Str(9 base - 4 racial) 18 Dex(14 base +4 gloves) 12 Con(12 base) 12 Int(12 base) 30 Wis(17 base +3 lvls +6 Racial +4 amulet) 6 Cha(8 base -2 racial) Domains: Elf .... gain Point Blank Shot Time ... gain Imp Initiative Knowledge ... give up Domain access to gain Knowledge Devotion feat progression: Cloistered Cleric 1 ........... Education, Point blank shot, Knowledge Devotion, Imp Initiative Soulknife 1 .................... Wild Talent, Weapon Focus(Mindblade) Fighter(Hit and Run variant) 1 ...................... Improved Flight(average>Good), Rapid Shot Soulknife 2 Fighter 2 ...................... Precise Shot Soulbow 1..................... Mountain Warrior, Bowslinger Soulbow 2 Soulbow 3..................... Zen Archery Soulbow 4..................... Many Shot Soulbow 5..................... Woodland Archer Soulbow 6 Soulbow 7..................... Improved Flight(good>Perfect), Imp Rapid Shot BAB 8+2(Soulbow) = +10 full Attack: +34 = +10 BAB +10 Wis +2 Competence + 1 haste +1 PBS +1 WpF +1 higher ground +1 size+ 2 enhancement(bane bonus) +5 Insight(Knowledge Dev) Full round Attack: +34/+34/+34/+29 damage: 34 per Mind Arrow =Mind arrow 1d6(3.5) +10 Wis +1 Competence +5 Insight +4 Enhancement(bane)+2d6(bane)(7)+ 1d6(3.5)(Elemental:flaming,etc) items: 16000gp +4 Amulet of Wis 16000gp +4 Gloves of Dex 25000gp Greater Bracers of Archery 13000gp Monks Belt 12000gp boots of Speed 2500gp Eyes of the Eagle 2000gp Handy Haversack ................ 86500gp spent:
#48 carnivore Mar 23, 2009 4:44:55	Pious Templar 3 gives Weapon Specialization.... provided the Deity has Mind Blade/Mind Arrow as Favored Weapon there is a single Deity that has it... but you could make your own for flavor if you like.... or take a Deity that has Composite Longbow Fav Weapon... but thats a stretch(The bolt is identical in all ways (except visually) to an arrow shot from a composite longbow) :D
#49 Ethican2 Mar 24, 2009 1:09:56	Pious Templar 3 gives Weapon Specialization.... provided the Deity has Mind Blade/Mind Arrow as Favored Weapon there is a single Deity that has it... but you could make your own for flavor if you like.... or take a Deity that has Composite Longbow Fav Weapon... but thats a stretch(The bolt is identical in all ways (except visually) to an arrow shot from a composite longbow) :D hmm what's the diety's name, because quite frankly that's awesome. it may actually open up an avenue I was attempting with soulknife.
#50 carnivore Mar 24, 2009 4:21:28	Dreaming Dark (PGE p131) LE Domains: Law, Evil, Shadow Fav Weapon: Mindblade however... since the Mindblade can be formed into different forms:[indent] Shortsword Longsword Bastard Sword[/indent] any Patron with these as favored Weapons will also work.... there are feats that give additional forms... that open up even more choices :D
#51 dr_rocktopus Mar 24, 2009 4:49:07	[scrubbed]
#52 Ethican2 Mar 24, 2009 5:47:45	Dreaming Dark (PGE p131) LE Domains: Law, Evil, Shadow Fav Weapon: Mindblade however... since the Mindblade can be formed into different forms:[indent] Shortsword Longsword Bastard Sword[/indent] any Patron with these as favored Weapons will also work.... there are feats that give additional forms... that open up even more choices :D thanks lol. this definitely helps. edit: is that players guide to eberron?