Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 naresh Jun 05, 2009 14:00:55	My DM wants to start a new campagin based on all of us taking control of a minor nation, we have to negotiate, fight and trade our way into total world domination in one way or another, I want to play the leader of some goodly knight based nation, Leadership feat is essential as it effects the population of the land and obviously the start of my elite army. No ToB, Psionics or Magic of Incarnum (or campaign specific) starting level 10 leadership is a must No traits/flaws or LA buyoff Race must be PHB or from the races book (with acceptance) NO humans All PHB classes are available, plus any PrC, or other class that I want with acceptance from DM Currently unsure on stat generation or starting money. I would usually look through the old fighter and other knight like handbooks here, but this is unlike anything i have played before so all hope is greatfully accepted. Also: There is one phrase in the email my DM sent me which completely threw me on: Leadership feat: (No humanoid cohorts) I have asked for more info on stats, gold and this restriction to leadership Any help is greatly appreciated EDIT: we will be using the rules for fame/infamy as well
#2 jgumbyrx Jun 05, 2009 14:12:13	if you don't have CHA as your primary stat, you may want it to be at least a secondary. Check-out Hero's of Battle -- cool feats, cool PrC, and lots of other related goodies. flying mount that can take class levels for a cohort? with abilities that compliment/suppliment each other? one of you a bard and the other a cleric = keep that army fighting (just my initial impulse)
#3 phaedrusxy Jun 05, 2009 17:44:13	There is a feat called Might Makes Right, which I think might be limited to half-orcs. There are also some decent half-orc palladin substitution levels. I'd look into those. You're not very clear on what books are allowed, and I'm not sure which those are from anyway, so...
#4 dbay Jun 05, 2009 21:29:39	OKAY. I can make your nation into an industrial superpower. Buy yourself some sort of item that casts Animate Dead once a day, or get a bunch of UMD followers and make it a wand. each follower can control 4 one HD skeletons per character level. Because you have a good nation, you don't animate humans. You animate animals that have already been killed for food, like farm animals. cast Haunt Shift (Libris Mortis 66) on them, haunting them into masterwork tools. Skeletons have a nonability for intelligence, and the MM says that a nonability has a modifier of +0. With the tools, thats a +2 craft modifier. Have them all of your haunted tools aid one tool, and with Quick Crafting (able to add +10 to DC as many times as you can) the craft rate increases exponentially. Undead need not sleep, so that triples your output right there. If someone can cast Magecraft from Eberron, thats +5 right there. In fact, since you're already king, you can just have all of your citizens animate pigs and squirrels to add to the factory. Lets say you have a thousand people (you will probably have more). if they're all lv 1, then you get 4000 skeletons. Skeleton one takes ten, for a check result of 12 (17 with magecraft) add +8000 from the 4000 skeletons, gives 8017 as your result. lets say you make longswords. DC=15, add 8000 from Quick Crafting (complete adventurer or something) so you multiply 8000x8017 for your result in SP every week. thats 64136000 sp per week, multiply by 3 because they don't sleep. that's 192408000 sp/week in longswords. That's 1282720 swords a week. Obviously, you don't need that many longswords. so instead, you can outfit your entire army in mastercraft full plate, swords, shields, spears, anything. The only trick is coming up with the raw materials to run this massive operation- profession is trained only, and skeletons don't get ranks, so they can't mine for you. Maybe a national Wall of Iron casting campaign? If only you could do this in RISK.
#5 jgumbyrx Jun 05, 2009 21:41:46	OKAY. I can make your nation into an industrial superpower. Buy yourself some sort of item that casts Animate Dead once a day, or get a bunch of UMD followers and make it a wand. each follower can control 4 one HD skeletons per character level. Because you have a good nation, you don't animate humans. You animate animals that have already been killed for food, like farm animals. cast Haunt Shift (Libris Mortis 66) on them, haunting them into masterwork tools. Skeletons have a nonability for intelligence, and the MM says that a nonability has a modifier of +0. With the tools, thats a +2 craft modifier. Have them all of your haunted tools aid one tool, and with Quick Crafting (able to add +10 to DC as many times as you can) the craft rate increases exponentially. Undead need not sleep, so that triples your output right there. If someone can cast Magecraft from Eberron, thats +5 right there. In fact, since you're already king, you can just have all of your citizens animate pigs and squirrels to add to the factory. Lets say you have a thousand people (you will probably have more). if they're all lv 1, then you get 4000 skeletons. Skeleton one takes ten, for a check result of 12 (17 with magecraft) add +8000 from the 4000 skeletons, gives 8017 as your result. lets say you make longswords. DC=15, add 8000 from Quick Crafting (complete adventurer or something) so you multiply 8000x8017 for your result in SP every week. thats 64136000 sp per week, multiply by 3 because they don't sleep. that's 192408000 sp/week in longswords. That's 1282720 swords a week. Obviously, you don't need that many longswords. so instead, you can outfit your entire army in mastercraft full plate, swords, shields, spears, anything. The only trick is coming up with the raw materials to run this massive operation- profession is trained only, and skeletons don't get ranks, so they can't mine for you. Maybe a national Wall of Iron casting campaign? If only you could do this in RISK. well, there's a couple of things wrong with that. Mainly, animate dead is an evil spell -- which doesn't mix too well with a bunch of good-guys. It's not a question of what you're animating; it only matters that you are animating. also, pigs and squirrels can't use tools -- not even the skeleton versions ; no opposible thumbs. from a mechanical standpoint, yeah, i guess it would work. However, OP did say a GOOD nation (thus implying that he, his followers, and the citizens are inclined towards good).
#6 dbay Jun 05, 2009 21:58:18	also, pigs and squirrels can't use tools -- not even the skeleton versions ; no opposible thumbs. from a mechanical standpoint, yeah, i guess it would work. However, OP did say a GOOD nation (thus implying that he, his followers, and the citizens are inclined towards good). Thats why theyre haunted into tools. they stop being skeletons and start being factory equipment. Hm. Goodness. Well, you could always make the argument that its a necessary evil, right? just because he's a good nation doesn't mean he is banned from doing bad things for the good of the country, if he didn't he wouldn't be a very good king. It's evil, but only because it has the [evil] subtype. All you're doing is using the bodies of nonsentient animals that are done with them anyways. The good you could do with the power this would give you would outweigh the minor evilness. Or, you could be a more neutral/neutral-good country? not persnickety paladin good, but good-er than straight neutral.
#7 naresh Jun 06, 2009 4:53:03	All books are allowed, except ToB, Magic from incarnum, psionics and camp. spec. I like the idea of the industrial powerhouse, but I don't like the idea of the haunting and undead... How would making some CR 1 golems, or something like that, 24 hours workers for the nation ;) Leaving all the population free to trade (and therefore make me money) while letting the populous take important jobs (advisors, bankers, merchants etc) This would keep everyone happy due to the abolition of "slave" labour - well for them anyway, so unless I get some golem-rites activist knocking on my door.... Anyone know of any CR1 golems (or similarly cheap to make golems) with costing, and the relevant things required? Our DM won't tell us about stats or money until we are all sitting around the table, he wants us to turn up with a concept, roll up the characters and... away :D My character would also more than likely have his full share of assasination attempts, and of course, taking part in the wars that will inevitably happen. I know this is going to be hard, as CHA is also a vital stat due to leadership... So I guess the questions are: 1. Race? 2. Classes? 3. How to run the nation? (starting with a workforce)
#8 vaskre Jun 06, 2009 13:41:23	There is a feat called Might Makes Right, which I think might be limited to half-orcs. There are also some decent half-orc palladin substitution levels. I'd look into those. You're not very clear on what books are allowed, and I'm not sure which those are from anyway, so... Mighty Makes Right is from Races of Faerun.
#9 qoshea Jun 06, 2009 14:06:49	I would suggest a Marshal for the class, automatic bonus to diplomacy as well as the CHA boosting aura. Race is rather more difficult, but I'm a big fan of kobolds. :D
#10 dbay Jun 06, 2009 15:11:10	heroes of Battle has a great feat that doubles your followers, and a Prestige class (Legendary Leader) thats all about leadership. The Marshall class fits the concept but is sort of blah, in my opinion. It would make a great cohort or hireling to lead your armies, but as a character its a little one-trick. for Race, this gives you the opportunity not just to pick your race, but the race of your whole kingdom. Want a dwarf mountain kingdom? elf? this also gives a neat opportunity to break stereotypes. I'm not having any inspiring ideas on this front yet, though. I would recommend one of the charisma-based classes in order to reduce MAD. Suggestions: Bard, Sorcerer, Paladin (serious MAD though), Favoured Soul (also needs wisdom). For this purpose constructs are doable, but a lot less efficient. The spell you are looking for is Minor Servitor from savage species. It's wiz/sorc 5, which you could just squeeze in at level 10. Basically, it gives you a 3d6 (10 or 11 average, +0 modifier) 1HD construct for 250 XP. The XP cost is debilitating, it would kill any character to make enough of these to base a kingdom off of, so maybe as a 1/day magic item? If you're DM gives permission, you could swap it out for a GP component (probably 5x the xp cost), which you could divert your nations funds towards. The best part about Minor Servitors is that, unlike skeletons, they are intelligent and therefore get skills and feats. (2+int modifier, or simply 2 perlevel 8 at first) they wouldnt be very good at it, but they could farm and mine too. (i think farmer is a profession) This leaves your entire populace free. Depending on your nation, this could translate into a huge army, a massive pool of spellcasters (you might wind up something like Eberron this way), highly specialized craftsmen, thinkers, or merchants. Because they get ranks, it is probably more efficient not to have them use the Aid Another but instead to craft solo. Does this help at all?
#11 phaedrusxy Jun 06, 2009 15:18:09	Ok, you could do some really interesting things with a half-orc paladin given your books available. Half-orc Paragon 3/Paladin X/whatever with the half-orc paladin substitution levels, and the Leadership feat, with a focus on demoralizing people could be quite fun. Basically, combine this and this.
#12 naresh Jun 06, 2009 15:36:14	I like the idea of marshal... Hmmm... I want my character to be the pinnacle of the race, so I want an awesome prestige class focus, like knight of the chalice would be, as opposed to the three a penny cavalier or assasain... Race, I am fine with any, as long as they work well in the build (As this is the CO board I doubt I'm going to see anything hideous :p) Are there no other ways to make such constructs? If I could convince my DM to allow psionics, how would psion / cleric with DMM persist for astral construct go down as some of my followers? I know large numbers wouldn't be possible to be created, hmm... There has got to be a way to get an efficient workforce quickly, easily and effectively
#13 phaedrusxy Jun 06, 2009 15:37:33	how would psion / cleric with DMM persist for astral construct go down as some of my followers? There are like 5 reasons why that wouldn't work. I won't bother to detail them, unless you want me to... If you just want a bunch of constructs to craft stuff, look in the Eberron books. There is a spell called Unseen Crafter that can craft mundane things, and then there are Dedicated Wrights that are permanent constructs that can even craft magic items for you. You still provide the spells, XP, and money. They just provide the time. There are also a bunch of cheap golems that might work. Here are some links for those: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=177.0 http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-740572.html http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-643235.html http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-943611
#14 naresh Jun 06, 2009 15:42:47	As I said, I am not an optimiser, I just wanted to know if it would work, obviously not...
#15 qoshea Jun 06, 2009 15:44:15	I like the idea of marshal... Hmmm... I want my character to be the pinnacle of the race, so I want an awesome prestige class focus, like knight of the chalice would be, as opposed to the three a penny cavalier or assasain... Also, if you want a pinnacle of the race, Kobold Dragonwrought Dragonfire Adept! With a 1 level dip into Marshal to take the CHA aura and the invocation Beguiling Influence. Primary stats should be CHA and CON. Make the Dragonwrought Kobold in the Old age category, chose a metallic dragon for his ancestry, and you've got 20 - 50 more years to rule your kingdom. Plus the +3 to all mental stats and no penalties due to age.
#16 hand_of_vecna Jun 06, 2009 17:01:22	You should consider supermount it's a very strong build that requires paladin, leadership and nonhuman.
#17 jgumbyrx Jun 06, 2009 17:25:14	You should consider supermount it's a very strong build that requires paladin, leadership and nonhuman. Aasimar, maybe?
#18 naresh Jun 07, 2009 2:27:25	I am liking the idea of a dragonfire adept / marshal so I am assuming the marshal is a 1 level dip for the charisma aura, Would the aura affect me as well? then straight 9 for DFA Then I would take a few breath feats 1. Dragontouched / Recover breath 2. Skill focus (diplomacy) 3. 6. Leadership 9. What else? Any other suggestions?
#19 qoshea Jun 07, 2009 5:21:05	I am liking the idea of a dragonfire adept / marshal so I am assuming the marshal is a 1 level dip for the charisma aura, Would the aura affect me as well? then straight 9 for DFA Then I would take a few breath feats 1. Dragontouched / Recover breath 2. Skill focus (diplomacy) 3. 6. Leadership 9. What else? Any other suggestions? Yes, the aura would affect you as well. No need for recover breath as the Dragonfire Adept can use the breath weapon every round. Don't forget to consider Dragonwrought. It's very nice, but has to be taken at Level 1.
#20 naresh Jun 07, 2009 7:23:48	Ahhh, I knew I forgot something... I meant to include dragonwrought, I just forgot it ;) Ok, so replace recover breath with DW Race: kobold? Or due to the dragon touched feat is it not required? Any other races that would be good? Otherwise, I am liking kobold How would metabreath feats affect my breath attacks? would they increase the waiting time to 1 round? Would it be worth picking up quicken breath (if it does work) to help melee combat? I like the idea of an electrical breath in the face then a greatsword :p If quicken breath is an OK, I still need another feat, Another metabreath feat? Or can anyone think of another leader feat that would be useful. We are using the rules for fame, would it be worth picking up the fame feat? In my opinion I can't really see the point, but is there a CO view I am missing?
#21 qoshea Jun 07, 2009 9:45:06	Ahhh, I knew I forgot something... I meant to include dragonwrought, I just forgot it ;) Ok, so replace recover breath with DW Race: kobold? Or due to the dragon touched feat is it not required? Any other races that would be good? Otherwise, I am liking kobold Race would have to be kobold for the Dragonwrought feat. How would metabreath feats affect my breath attacks? would they increase the waiting time to 1 round? Would it be worth picking up quicken breath (if it does work) to help melee combat? I like the idea of an electrical breath in the face then a greatsword :p If quicken breath is an OK, I still need another feat, Another metabreath feat? Or can anyone think of another leader feat that would be useful. We are using the rules for fame, would it be worth picking up the fame feat? In my opinion I can't really see the point, but is there a CO view I am missing? You can't take any feat that states it increases the delay before you can use your breath weapon again as the DFA doesn't have a delay. If you have the book Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic, I believe they have breath weapon feats. I would also suggest Ability Focus (Breath Weapon). I don't know anything about the Fame rules unfortunately.
#22 phaedrusxy Jun 07, 2009 18:22:42	You can't take any feat that states it increases the delay before you can use your breath weapon again as the DFA doesn't have a delay. They aren't limited to once per round? So if they somehow got multiple standard actions, they could use their breath weapon more than once per round?
#23 qoshea Jun 07, 2009 18:34:51	They aren't limited to once per round? So if they somehow got multiple standard actions, they could use their breath weapon more than once per round? The book says that to use the breath weapon is a standard action, not an attack action. So I honestly don't know.
#24 atherton Jun 07, 2009 22:22:20	Followers and Low Hit Dice constructs are fine, but if you want to do more than pump out an endless supply of masterwork longswords we should figure out a way to get you more higher level help. Classes: There aren't many classes that clearly allow for two cohorts. Thrallherd gives an extra cohort, but alignment restrictions are difficult. A number of classes have lines like "gives a cohort as if you had the leadership feat" (see further recommendations about this), but the fact that the thrallherd's capstone ability exists at all suggests these won't stack. Ask your DM. It's also important We do not limit ourselves to actual cohorts. If a class gives a large elemental or some special construct, it's worthy of consideration. Imagine the uses of a large fire elemental in the capital city; palace furnace, waste disposal, unlimited steam power when paired with a decanter of endless water, etc. Feats: Improved Cohort from Heroes of Battle narrows the level gap between you and your cohort, which is obviously good. Guildmaster (DMG 2) gives you more versatility in your cohort, letting you swap it out for another one once a week. Mentor (DMG 2) gives you an apprentice that, once it reaches 5th level and 'graduates', follows you like a cohort. If you end up playing a Paladin, consider what you want to do with your mount. Sure, you can have a kick-ass ride that makes you better in combat. But why not find an especially intelligent mount and install it as a governor or member of the imperial senate? Sure you've just become a lawful good Caligula, but that's kinda awesome in it's own way, isn't it? Maybe take the Dragon Mount feat and get a young bronze dragon or something. It's got better mental stats than any of your followers are going to have and any dragon, even young ones, command respect from commoners. Spells: Gating in creatures is all sorts of useful. Get some high hit-dice celestial and work out a contract to keep him on as an advisor so you're always in good with the gods and the people know it. Simulacrum/Ice Assassin. Expensive in the short term, but pays off rather nicely, especially if you just copied a crafter or caster. Keep in mind it doesn't advance so it doesn't gain XP so anything it builds will require XP from a craft reserve like the artificer has or from a living being. Further Recommendations: 1. Clarify what your DM means by no campaign specific materials. Can you take a class and ignore the setting specific parts? If so, you really, really want artificers from Eberron. Deathless from the same campaign setting are a nice, relatively cheap source of free labor, though your people may be a bit uneasy when they see positive-energy animated grandma toiling on past the grave in Beloved Leader's state cabbage farm. 2. If a class says it gives you a cohort as though you'd taken the leadership feat, will your DM allow you to have multiple cohorts by combining the leadership feat and that class? Anyone else know ways of getting the paladin king more loyal and useful aides?
#25 dbay Jun 10, 2009 15:43:14	Great Idea on the deathless, Atherton. However, it's dependent on your Turn Undead ability (which paladins arent that good at). Maybe that in combination with Minor Servitor? servitor could create your workforce, and you could have an undying positive-energy fuelled army of loyal crack troops. (also disposable, I suppose, but being Good you probably shouldn't treat them like that). Obviously you wouldn't get enough undying soldiers to be your entire army, just your palace guard, stormtroopers, elite commandos, whatever you decide to call them. (Order of the _____ or _____'s fists/swords/hands is always a good pick) Would it be more effective to create and control one high level deathless, or a lot of low-level mooks? If you only have one or two, you could have them spellstitched (from complete arcane, among other books) to basically become killing machines.
#26 dbay Jun 10, 2009 23:54:00	Holy Belgarath, I can't beleive I didn't notice this before: Warforged. they're from Eberron. They don't eat or sleep. So, you can have your followers all be warforged, your turn undead can control Deathless, and you can use Minor Servitor to shore up any weaknesses. Enter D&D industrial revoltion, robot-style. Can't possibly go wrong basing you're entire society off of robots. (Make your cohort be Keanu Reeves, just in case)
#27 sofawall Jun 11, 2009 0:21:28	(Make your cohort be Keanu Reeves, just in case) How about Ahnold. Or Will Smith. Just not Keanu Reeves. Please not him.