| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1arogenithSep 19, 2008 11:26:37 | Alrighty, so everyone knows how to optimize general ideas. Its been posted enough times everywhere to get a Bard/Virtuoso/XX or how to max out your druid/monk wild-shape pounce. We have PunPun the almighty and nano-bot technology, but I've noticed everyone generally stays to the same classes because of their seemingly awesome use in several different character strategies. What I'm wondering is how truely skillfull you optimization-board lurkers really are. Common names with their impressive builds always popping up are those such as (but not limited to) Tshern, Pheonix, and Pithica are the ones I'm really challenging here, but its open to everyone. What I'm testing is how well you can combine a maximum of 3 classes, with a 28-point buy, at level 20 with a maximum gold usage of 200k (a little over 1/4 of a normal 20th lvl char) of whats suggested in the DMG. The main goal is to be able to one thing and do it well. The character 'should' be playable at any level, though thats forgivable if it pays off in the end. The hardest part of this is going to be the restricted classes though. 1) No psionics, usually people tend to stay away from them anyways, but lets insure it 2) No classes that get stacking bonuses for more then one class (ex. Ultimate Magus, I Sacred Fist (I'm pretty sure), etc.) Feats that allow this are allowed however (Complete Scoundrel has a bunch if memory serves correctly). 3) As stated above, no more then 3 classes (including base and prestiege classes) 4) No varient classes, period. 5) Race must be from PHB 3.5. 6) Items must all be bought. No claiming "I made this before level 20". Artifacers can use only their highest lvl "xp pool" to create items, incorperating the normal gold costs. They cannot however buy magic items, disenchant them, and make better items. 7)Only books may be used. This sadly means no Dragon mags. sorry people 8)No flaws/traits, and no crossing campaign settings (no Ferune & Eberron in one character) 9) Anything I forget, tell me and I'll place it here Strategy of character is suggested to be written below the actual character itself, these may be pitted up against eachother to show who is the true ruler of the optimization board!! |
| #2arogenithSep 19, 2008 11:27:09 | Character Name: Creator's name: race: class(es): Str: (base) | (after items/abilities) | (mod) Dex: ( ) | ( ) | ( ) Con: ( ) | ( ) | ( ) Int: ( ) | ( ) | ( ) Wis: ( ) | ( ) | ( ) Cha: ( ) | ( ) | ( ) AC/Touch/FF: Init: Speed: Skills (only post if of importance): Name | Ranks | Ability | Misc | Total ( ) | ( ) | ( ) | ( ) | ( ) ( ) | ( ) | ( ) | ( ) | ( ) ( ) | ( ) | ( ) | ( ) | ( ) Feats: (name) | (level attained) gear: (item/wep/armor) | (starting body slot) | (buff/(att, dmg, range, misc)/(AC, max dex, buffs) ( ) | ( ) | ( ) ( ) | ( ) | ( ) ( ) | ( ) | ( ) ( ) | ( ) | ( ) ( ) | ( ) | ( ) ( ) | ( ) | ( ) ( ) | ( ) | ( ) ( ) | ( ) | ( ) ( ) | ( ) | ( ) ( ) | ( ) | ( ) Abilities: Spells/maneuvers/incantations/etc: Name (# of spells prepared in a bracket afterwards) Anything else: A little flair (optional): |
| #3innabinderSep 19, 2008 14:45:43 | I'll throw down. *RESERVED* |
| #4pithicaSep 19, 2008 14:54:14 | *Reserved* Since Gear is going to be an issue, I decided to go something simple that played well in recent experience. It's not 'optimal' but I think it's as good as you're going to get while still maintaining the letter and spirit of the competition. I am not going for any obvious cheese (or at least, I don't think so), at the very least nothing so broken as to be unfair to the other players. |
| #5SenevriSep 19, 2008 16:29:53 | wasn't gonna do this, but... started out standard bard-barian, core only... couldn't think of decent feats so took a bit from ToB and PHBII, and ended up with a basic lockdown type build. Levels go something like bard 1, barbarian 3, bard 3, dragon disciple 4, barbarian 9, I think, to have the easiest time while playing. |
| #6destined_infamySep 19, 2008 19:09:23 | This looks interesting, might give it a try *reserved for the time being* |
| #7arogenithSep 19, 2008 19:12:46 | Would classes like 'Eldritch Knight' count? yeah, I don't see why not. They're only one class' features with a higher BAB and whatnot, right? If it stacked with fighter levels to determine feats, or something like that then I'd rule it out General? any/all books allowed? I'm gonna go with yes for the time being, remembering a)only PHB races, b)no varients, and c) "books". Sorry, but I'm dropping the no when it comes to Dragon mags |
| #8PlzBreakMyCampaignSep 19, 2008 22:48:37 | Since you call to lurkers... Please do not name your thread something contrary to what you want. "Least optimized" means polarized to the minimum possible. As far as builds are concerned, that would imply you are looking for the most worthless characters possible to build, rather than maximum optimization within slightly strict limits (much more restrictive ones like NO MULTICLASSING, etc) As far as further participation goes, you have no rules established for how to actually evaluate competing builds: do you do both character or is it post-by-post from the creatures, etc? |
| #9innabinderSep 20, 2008 8:53:59 | Do book settings matter, i.e. if I took Knight Training from EbCS am I then restricted from FRCS source material and vise versa? Edit: Also, are Flaws allowed? |
| #10arogenithSep 20, 2008 12:14:06 | I'm gonna say yes to the whole campaign setting restrictions, because thats what makes the most sense. If you're from Eberron, your from Eberron. I guess I'll do the double checking on characters to make sure everything's within the restrictions. Flaws/traits are a no go for the mere sake of, I've had no time to look them over. But I've noticed they have been used to break classes on these forums, plus, more restrictions makes this all a little more challenging, right? To Senevri, I'm not quite sure how you grabbed that 26 base strength, so any clerification would help, and I'm also wondering what race you are. Just throw it in via edit post, I'm sure I'll notice. Also, the gold budget is up. We're going with an even 200k, so I'm not sure how much more you can put on that spiked chain :\ Finally to PlzBreakMyCampaign I was thinking of going with Minimoptimized, or something of that sort, but I guess its too late to go back and change it. Unless someone with the power to decides to change it for me (?? :D ), but then I think the people who have already posted might start wondering where this thread went. Further more I've not quite finalized the battle plan on how these characters are going to be tested. Most likely whats going to go down is an arena will be drawn up (possible traps) and the characters will get up to 3 rounds to buff while "Being introduced", then the gates open simotaniously and higher initiative is first (due to rolling being a little difficult over the interweb). I have had this type of tournament before during a party that had a lot of D&D players there and everyone had a good time pitting themselves up against eachother, and even watching the battles. If this seems unfair then I can just put all players up against different monsters, using their percentage to hit (crit & crit miss to), average damage, and then the player gets a number of points equal to the CR of the monster minus the rounds taken to kill it, after a few battles whoever has the most points wins, that way everyone can test it using simple calculations to know I'm not biased |
| #11SenevriSep 21, 2008 8:58:39 | huh? I started with puny 15 base. It's easy-pie... A flat 200K, hmm... well, some room to play around.... |
| #12jaronkSep 21, 2008 12:04:54 | Too easy. Gnome Illusionist 15/Shadowcraft Mage 5... I'm not sure if the racial sub levels for gnomes count as "varient classes" but it hardly matters. Cast Shadow Genesis to create a Flowing Plane 10,000,000 Timeless plane and kill enemies from there. JaronK |
| #13mestarSep 21, 2008 12:09:33 | Erm. Human 5 Druid 10 Master of Many Form 5 Nature's Warrior. Follower of Mielikki Stats Bone Ooze War Troll Maulgoth Str 10 (+0) 40 (+15) 31 (+10) 29 (+9) Dex 15 16 (+3) 1 (-5) 16 (+3) 25 (+7) Con 14 (+2) 28 (+9) 29 (+9) 27 (+8) Int 10 (+0) Wis 16 20 (+5) Cha 8 (+0) Items: Mithral Breastplate +5 Wild (68350) Ioun Stone of +5 Resistance to saves (Not actually in DMG but created w/ given rules) (50000) BaB 3+7+5 = 15/10/5 Saves: 5 Druid 4/1/4 10 MoMF 7/7/3 5 NW 4/1/1 Resist 5/5/5 Iron Will 0/0/2 Stats X(2)/X(3)/5 Human 22/17/20 Bone Ooze 29/10/20 War Troll 29/17/20 Maulgoth 28/21/20 feats 1 Alertness 1 Endurance 3 Track 6 Multi Attack 9 Quick Change 12 Iron Will 15 18 Abilities WildShape 13/day Humanoid, Large, Mon Humanoid, Fey, Vermin, Aberration, Plant, Ooze, Elemental, Dragon Diminutive to Gargantuan Shifter's Speech Fast Wild Shape Extaordinary Wild Shape Evershifting Form Wilding Earth's Resilience (DR 3/-) Armor of the Crocodile (+5 Nat Armor as enhancement bonus) Wild Growth (Fast Healing 1) Favored Forms: War Troll mm3, Bone Ooze, Maulgoth ff, Will-O-Wisp So that's +10 armor bonus and +5 nat armor for +15 ac to whatever form you take. Maulgoth +120hp for new con Ac 10+10(+5Mithral Breastplate)+7(dex)+29(24nat 5enh) = 54 ff = 47 touch = 15 Attacks: 4 tentacles +22 (2d6+9) bite +20(2d8+4) Grapple +32 Extraordinal Abilities: Etheral Jault Constrict Imp Grab Perfect Climbing Tremorsense (60ft) Xorn Movement Darkvision 60ft SR 37 DR 30/magic and 3/- Fast Healing 1 |
| #14arogenithSep 21, 2008 13:29:18 | to be fair JaronK, thats assuming you get the first go in combat. I've seen over 100 dmg on a basic melee attack on a 120 foot charge, sans buffs. and I know that thats not terribly impressive, but honestly, how much AC/hp would that little gnomey have? And how pimp is that fort save? Anything can happen, its not so simple as 'this build will win no matter what'. Also, I was wondering how long till someone threw out Master of many forms. I've seen some of the stuff they can do, not bad at all. A few more details would be nice though, just to see what form you 'would' actually take, and what stats you have whilest in that form |
| #15jaronkSep 21, 2008 13:41:55 | to be fair JaronK, thats assuming you get the first go in combat. I've seen over 100 dmg on a basic melee attack on a 120 foot charge, sans buffs. and I know that thats not terribly impressive, but honestly, how much AC/hp would that little gnomey have? And how pimp is that fort save? Anything can happen, its not so simple as 'this build will win no matter what'. Actually, no, you do go first. You don't just go into the Genesis after someone picks a fight... you stay in it and use Shadow Gates to interact with the outside world. You move 10,000,000 times faster than everyone else all the time, so it really doesn't matter what the heck anyone else does. Also, you can use Shadow Major Conjuration to put anyone in a puddle of Black Lotus Poison if you so desire. Plus, if you really want defense, you can use the Haunt Shift trick to become nearly invincible to most forms of attack in addition to your 40% always on concealment. JaronK |
| #16carnivoreSep 21, 2008 18:44:15 | this looks interesting, .... if i have time, i might be able to work something up quick question: does this mean we cant use the following?: Eldritch Knight Mystic theurge Arcane trickster Fochlucan Lyrist Eldritch Theurge Eldritch Diciple etc.... :D |
| #17arogenithSep 22, 2008 8:11:40 | this looks interesting, .... if i have time, i might be able to work something up full BAB spellcasters are a go, but anything that stacks abilities (eg. add assassin's lvl to rogue for determining sneak att dmg) or increases caster lvl or anything like that to more then one class is a goner. So Fochlucan Lyrist for example, buffs arcane AND divine caster lvls, means its a no go. Actually, no, you do go first. You don't just go into the Genesis after someone picks a fight... you stay in it and use Shadow Gates to interact with the outside world. You move 10,000,000 times faster than everyone else all the time, so it really doesn't matter what the heck anyone else does. I haven't read up on shadow magic, but it sounds like this is exactly the thing I was trying to avoid in this thread. Sans loopholes! Try and make a genuine character that a DM would allow, and see how he fares. I think I'm even gonna throw a pure lvl 20 class char. into this to see how it fares on it's own. Seriously, give it a go, you might find it fun |
| #18innabinderSep 22, 2008 8:36:16 | full BAB spellcasters are a go, but anything that stacks abilities (eg. add assassin's lvl to rogue for determining sneak att dmg) or increases caster lvl or anything like that to more then one class is a goner. So Fochlucan Lyrist for example, buffs arcane AND divine caster lvls, means its a no go. Wait, I'm confused. By this do you mean that any PrC that adds SA damage (or Sudden Strike, or Skirmish) to a SA-Base like Rogue is a no-go? That'd be a a serious hindrance to the non-casters, especially since (it appears) Classes like Incantatrix that add full Spellcasting progression are permissible. Would, for instance, Beastmaster be disallowed because it adds to Animal Companion? |
| #19BloodDragonSep 22, 2008 10:05:32 | I haven't read up on shadow magic, but it sounds like this is exactly the thing I was trying to avoid in this thread. Sans loopholes! Try and make a genuine character that a DM would allow, and see how he fares. I think I'm even gonna throw a pure lvl 20 class char. into this to see how it fares on it's own. Seriously, give it a go, you might find it fun Illusionist 15/Shadowcraft Mage 5 is not Tome of Magic. It's the PHB and Races of Stones."Shadow" is more flavour then anything else, noo mysteries involed. It uses all (most) the normal spells any Player's Handbook Wizard(Illusionist) or Sor does. By Shadow Major Conjuration I believe JasonK means: "Shadow" Major-Creation. Which is a player's handbook spell. Very core. Correct me if I'm wrong. |
| #20acereraklivesSep 22, 2008 10:50:15 | Here's a character that focuses on one thing and does it extremely well: summoning monsters, especially evil ones. He'd be even better if alternate class features to swap familiars and scribe scroll were allowed, but I think that's against the spirit of this exercise. If swaps are allowed, grab Focused Specialist, Enhanced Summoning, and Rapid Summoning for a much stronger character. LN Human Conjurer 5/Master Specialist 10/Malconvoker 5 (not necessarily in that order, but we'll assume it below) Feats: 1st human: Spell Focus: Conjuration 1st char: Augment Summoning 1st bonus: Scribe scroll 3rd char: Metamagic Spell Focus: Conjuration (Complete Mage) 5th bonus: Rapid Spell (Complete Divine) 6th char: Cloudy Conjuration (CM) 6th bonus: Skill Focus: Spellcraft) 8th bonus: Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration 9th char: Summon Elemental (Complete Mage) 12th char: Thesis Spell: Summon Monster VI (PHB II) 15th char: Fiendish Summoning Specialist (Planar Handbook) 18th char: Thesis Spell: Summon Monster IX (PHB II) Items aren't too important really, rods of extend spell are always awesome though. Basically the character can cast summon monster as a swift action 3/day through the combination of Master Specialist 10's ability and Rapid Spell coupled with Metamagic Spell Focus, and then as a standard action 6/day if it's SM VI or IX due to Thesis Spell. If he succeeds on easy charisma checks, the evil monsters he summons have doubled durations, extra attack and damage, and he summons two of them. |
| #21jaronkSep 22, 2008 21:33:03 | Illusionist 15/Shadowcraft Mage 5 is not Tome of Magic. It's the PHB and Races of Stones."Shadow" is more flavour then anything else, noo mysteries involed. It uses all (most) the normal spells any Player's Handbook Wizard(Illusionist) or Sor does. You're absolutely right. It's Races of Stone+PHB, and the issue here is that the OP restrictions don't actually restrict anything. Remember, core has 3 of the strongest classes. And yes, Shadow Major Creation is just a Shadowcraft Mage creating a Shadow spell of Major Creation, giving it a standard action casting time and no casting cost. Even a regular Wizard can do this with Shades IIRC, and the Genesis trick is available to a Wizard 17 or Sorcerer 18. JaronK |
| #22jaronkSep 22, 2008 21:37:37 | Since I was told to go pure class, here you go: Wizard 20. Now, use the Haunt Shift trick to be nearly invincible and the temporal Genesis trick to gain rediculous actions. No feats or money required, though Genesis will cost you 5kexp. The simple fact here is that the OP restrictions are not in fact restrictive at all, because the serious power classes are core. Core is the most broken section of the rules, because balance hadn't been figured out yet. JaronK |
| #23arogenithSep 22, 2008 22:06:54 | alright, any extra suggestions then? Restrictions you think should be listed? I think it was rule 8 or 9 that said if you think anything else should be restricted, just drop a comment. No shadow magic you're saying, or no spell casters? |
| #24jaronkSep 23, 2008 0:35:23 | Well, you have to pick the restrictions. However, be aware that since Core is the most unbalanced, limiting things to Core actually doesn't help much at all. Likewise, lots of classes isn't necessary to optimization... Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10, for example, is one of the strongest builds around. Really, you need to restrict it to things that are actually weak, and go from there. Weaker build concepts (Sword and Board, Grapplers, etc) or weaker classes in general (no casting or initiator classes helps). Perhaps specialized challenges like "only classes with 6+ skillpoints per level" or something. But if your limitations allow Wizards, Druids, or Clerics, it's too easy. JaronK |
| #25aktarielSep 23, 2008 14:06:58 | Agreed. Core is OMGWTFBBWPWNZZRZ. Or something like that. Also, you need to clarify which "dual progression" classes are and aren't allowed. You've said that Mystic Theurge is out, because it advances arcane and divine casting. Fair enough. So too is Cerebremancer, Eldritch Theurge, etc. Understandable. Arcane Trickster (moderate sneak attack progression + advances arcane spellcasting) is also assumed to be out. There are others. I could list them, but we know what's up. But you said that Eldritch Knight is allowed. It's a full BAB class that advances Spellcasting, and gives a feat every so often. If that's not advancing Fighter and Wizard abilities at the same time, I don't know what is. Part of the problem here may, of course, be that the core Fighter is so generic that we find it hard to recognize his abilities on another class. Also, what of Rage Mage? (Terrible class, but still) It does basically the same thing as EK, but since it gives specials from a definite class (Barbarian), is it out? I'm not trying to rain on your party. Far from it. I laud your attempt to reign in the craziness. But... in the twisted words of Frank Miller's Leonidas... "3rd edition? This... is... MADNESS!" |
| #26BloodDragonSep 23, 2008 14:45:19 | As it turns out: It's usually "Spells" that are the most powerful thing in 3.5e, and I find the Core spells are usaully the worse because many are so open ended. Only to be followed closely by "Things-you-can-do-to-spells" via metamagics and class abilities... or class abilities that work with Metamagics! Everything else is a distance third. So an easy solution is to cut spells out completely! However then your cutting out more then 2/3s of the game and a good portion of the general "Fantasy" theme. |
| #27arogenithSep 23, 2008 16:16:17 | see, thats the problem I was coming up with while I was making the restrictions, cuz I don't want to be like "No bullstrength!!" when all I'm trying to do is drop the broken spells. Thats why I said something along the lines of "stay away from the typical classes/spells used in most builds on this forum". It drops a lot of OPed things, but thats still all left up to interpretation. An important thing to notice (for JaronK's new idea for that spell idea he had, but to all others too) is that as said above in the original starter of this thread, is that you have lvl 20 xp, and are lvl 20, meaning 0 xp that can be sacrificed for spells. I realized that this stops a lot of things like extra potions, magic items, and even spells. I was hoping it'd balance stuff out more so no one can be like "Buff round 1, cast wish, ask for a completely loyal, full HP Ancient Wurm Radiant Dragon to use as [my] mount, supplied with a saddle fit to [my] size, that will last at least until the end of this next battle", or random things like that. ....hmmm.....what about limiting the max lvl of spells available? Like no spell higher then 7th? Thats still not bad, gives reason to be a spellcaster and not just a bard, and I don't think that that has any spells that are too powerful. On the other hand, I don't think there are any broken maneuvers of 8th/9th lvl, should those be limited? And if so, what else? I like the input, but we gotta get this sorted out before too many people throw in their builds Oh, and Aktariel, I mentioned this when I said it, I haven't read up on the Eldritch knight, so I haven't seen what it does. Full BAB + full spells I'd probably call crossing two classes, especially with the feats. Though if it was just feats and spells I wouldn't worry about it. Wizards get bonus feats too |
| #28jaronkSep 23, 2008 16:18:17 | Shadow Major Creation is IIRC 5th level, and will instantly kill anyone not immune to poison. The simple fact is that spellcasting is just too easy. Heck, the entire Haunt Shift trick is, IIRC, 5th level spells and below, and that makes you nearly invincible. JaronK |
| #29innabinderSep 23, 2008 16:20:29 | 2 things: 1. I'm still confused about what classes are banned/restricted and the justification for it, so any clarification is appreciated. 2. ....hmmm.....what about limiting the max lvl of spells available? Like no spell higher then 7th? Thats still not bad, gives reason to be a spellcaster and not just a bard, and I don't think that that has any spells that are too powerful. On the other hand, I don't think there are any broken maneuvers of 8th/9th lvl, should those be limited? And if so, what else? I like the input, but we gotta get this sorted out before too many people throw in their builds Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Polymorph. |
| #30arogenithSep 23, 2008 16:53:40 | hah, well thanks for the names of a few more spells, but thats still not helping with making a set of rules everyone can agree on. Does this mean we're resorting to no spell casting? No one would get too hung up on that? The whole reason to drop classes with duel progression is because there's a limit of 3 classes, so if someone used 3 classes all with those progressions, its similar to having 6 classes. I know they have their own personal downfalls, but I figured this would be easier. Well, maybe not all have their downfalls. Mystic Theurge? Thats pretty damn good from memory. If you need to know if a class is a no, send me a message (this board is getting a little crowded with similar responses) and I'll edit the response into the original post. Anything I missed? *EDIT* Polymorph works only on willing subjects :\ Maybe if you used Charm Person first? |
| #31innabinderSep 23, 2008 17:20:33 | *EDIT* Polymorph works only on willing subjects :\ Maybe if you used Charm Person first? You cast it on yourself; you're almost always willing. Now you're a Dragon/War Troll/Shambling Mound/Pick your favorite form of Uber, and all those silly non-casters that were about to squish you are running for their lives.... until you hit them with all your Extraordinary abilities. Oh, you also still cast spells, assuming your form or the spells' parameters allow it. |
| #32arogenithSep 23, 2008 17:33:37 | theres also the restriction of the 15 HD creature though, which changes your HP doesn't it? I know a lvl 20 warblade can get a bonus for some 200 damage on a single attack made against one's Touch AC, thats not too shabby. Especially cuz you keep your wizard's Fort Save, even if it is buffed with new Con |
| #33jaronkSep 23, 2008 17:39:38 | Yeah, that assumes the Warblade ever gets close... which is easily avoidable. Polymorph, by the way, can even grant you spellcasting (spells are an extraordinary special attack) which leads to all sorts of other silliness. And if Warblades are getting you down, try killing a few and reanimating them with Animate Dread Warrior. Now you have as many of them as you want. JaronK |
| #34aktarielSep 23, 2008 17:42:19 | The simple fact is that spells = win. Unless we go through and exhaustively list which spells are and aren't allowed, you're going to get crazyness. I understand what you're doing here. I wish there was an easy way to express it in terms of "guidelines," but there isn't. Really, what you want is "please stop visiting crazytown for the purposes of builds on this thread" with the additional request of "please abide by the spirit rather than the letter of this challenge." Unfortunately, many Optimizers take restrictions as a personal challenge to come up with something within the letter if not the spirit of the law. It would help, however, if we knew why you wanted such things. EDIT: And now we're just into the realm of playing "Who's got the bigger c**k." |
| #35arogenithSep 23, 2008 17:55:48 | hah, well at least you see it my way. I just thought this would be an interesting idea, to get all the big shots together and just exclude some of the more typical things. Like when everybody jumped to Polymorph once I said lvl 6 & below. Notice that? No?...oh well. At any rate, it seems like a few people are getting into the spirit of things already. If you wanna throw polymorph into your character, be my guest (at least for the time being). I'll probably pit some of these up against each other to see if/how OPed that spell really is. Unless someone else wants to do this for me of course.....it'd be nice cuz I've got a bunch on my plate right now (3 uni assignments, calc midterm, & I'm not gonna be around to work on it for a few days as is cuz I'm goin up to see my gf this weekend). For the sake of living through spellcaster damage, I'm gonna say that max HP should be dubbed on all the characters, thanks to the d4s wizards/sorc's roll. I know this doesn't effect Clerics/Druids as much, but this is just one test run of this system. I'll still be checking in when I have a minute between classes and when I get home (13-14 hour days here), but if anyone wants to co-run this board? Something like that, just....yeah. You all seem to have the idea I was getting at, just getting the specific rules when it comes to that down is a little hard....I trust you all have character ideas coming though? |
| #36jaronkSep 23, 2008 18:09:32 | The problem Aro is that you're saying "make the best character you can... but if it's too good, then it doesn't count." That simply doesn't work. Whatever the "best but not too good" is I'm sure plenty of us here can make it, as soon as you define what it is. It's easily done. JaronK |
| #37arogenithSep 23, 2008 22:52:09 | "The problem Aro is that you're saying "make the best character you can... but if it's too good, then it doesn't count." That simply doesn't work" yeah, I know. Well at first it I thought it looked like half decent guidlines, and I know it sounds naive but I didn't think that spellcasters would be "that" big of a problem...like Polymorph, sure its pimp, but you still only have so much HP, and can either attack, 'or' cast a spell. The whole shadow magic, I've never looked into it, but it looks like that is completely broken in every way, unless you were facing another shadow magic-user? I'm not sure how the rules bend to situations like that. At any rate suggestions are being accepted. No spellcasters seems to be the biggest one here, but that nerfs Druids to an interesting fighting class, and destroys clerics, wizards, etc. Maybe target: self/willing target or 'harmless' magic only? Basically target self+anything that could be put through a War Weaver's weave is allowed, others are a goner. Healing magic and stuff is still allowed, so not as big of a nerf to those classes, but magic won't destroy everything around it input? still too OPed? |
| #38mestarSep 24, 2008 3:39:08 | I think what's meant by the multiple class stackings is that if a class has an ability that says it stacks with this class and that class then it's out. Things that say +1d6 sneak attack damage don't actually stack with Rogue levels. If they did, prestige classes would be giving bonus sneak dice every two levels or they'd say +1 lvl for determining sneak attack based on rogue levels twice as often as they say +1d6 sneak. And note that some monster races will get racial sneak attack thus negating the normally required levels of rogue to enter it. Spellsword or whatever doesn't say it stacks with levels of fighter to determine bonus feats or feats that require X levels in fighter to get. BaB and saves are generic things that ALL classes get. |
| #39mestarSep 24, 2008 3:44:16 | Yeah, that assumes the Warblade ever gets close... which is easily avoidable. Polymorph, by the way, can even grant you spellcasting (spells are an extraordinary special attack) which leads to all sorts of other silliness. How does Polymorph give you spellcasting? In the MM(p305) Extraordinary abilities are defined as (among other parameters) abilities that don't go away in an antimagic field. Spellcasting on the other hand does go away. |
| #40SenevriSep 24, 2008 4:05:35 | Well, not spellcasting, usually. Shapechange can give you access to some spells, and since you can shift form every round, that's a whole lot of spells. It might even grant you an Angel's casting, depending on what "Spells" entry in "Special Attacks" is interpreted as. |
| #41banaticusSep 24, 2008 5:24:35 | (spells are an extraordinary special attack) I don't see an (Ex) after the Spells ability in either the PHB (looking at wizards) or the MM (looking at bronze and copper dragons). I'm fairly certain that spells are probably considered spell-like abilities, if not actual spells. whole reason to drop classes with duel progression is because there's a limit of 3 classes, so if someone used 3 classes all with those progressions, its similar to having 6 classes. I know they have their own personal downfalls, but I figured this would be easier. Well, maybe not all have their downfalls. Mystic Theurge? Thats pretty damn good from memory. Actually, it pretty much sucks. Sure, when Mystic Theurge first came out we were all WTFitPWNZoRZRXXORZmyBOXORZ! But then we all sat down and took a good long look at it. Remember how people say that it's magic that (ultimately) is more powerful? Well, the Mystic Theurge's big thing is that you sacrifice the highest level spells in exchange for a lot more lower level spells. They just aren't as useful, in general, in the long run. That's why you've seen so few builds with Mystic Theurge in them since the "new" 3.5e DMG came out. Ultimately, it's just not that powerful of a class when compared with either a straight cleric or a straight wizard. Sure, it can do things that neither of those other two classes can do on their own, but in their own realm they outshine the Mystic Theurge. A Mystic Theurge might totally pownzer rock in a solo campaign, but how many of us actually play in one of those? The strongest possibly party is when each character has their own specialized niche -- the sum of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, you know? So, by focusing on doing your thing (whatever that is) and doing it really well, you're actually making everyone else in the party that much better, because you free them from having to also do your shtick and they can concentrate on their shtick and everyone just gets better and everyone theoretically gets their own moments to shine while they do their thing, and everyone has more fun to boot, etc. Which is they the Mystic Theurge just doesn't work that well -- your finger is just in too many pies at once and you just can't focus very well, you're too spread out. Plus, you run into MAD (Multiple Attribute Deficiency), etc. Mystic Theurge is one of the weaker PrCs. Arcane Hierophant, well, that's pretty darn awesome, but that's mostly because the core druid is so freakingly awesome. Google the term "CoDzilla". |
| #42banaticusSep 24, 2008 5:29:10 | Edit: Sorry, double post. |
| #43carnivoreSep 24, 2008 5:41:47 | how about this: Human Ranger 2/ Wizard 8/ Eldritch Knight 10 BAB +16 17th lvl Wizard Abilities(9th lvl spells) great Skills base saves: F +12/ R+8/ W+9 Base Attributes: (28pt buy) 10 Str 14 Dex 14 con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha Feats: Track(ranger Bonus) Rapid Shot(ranger Bonus) Scribe Scroll(Wizard bonus) Point blank Shot(human bonus) Quicken Spell(Wizard bonus) Manyshot(Eldritch Knight bonus) 1st lvl: Precise Shot 3rd lvl: Far Shot 6th lvl: Weapon Focus(Longbow) 9th lvl: Weapon Finnesse 12th lvl: Woodland Archer 15th lvl: Improved precise Shot 18th lvl: Improved Rapid Shot very nice Archer... and can cast 9th lvl Arcane Spells :D |
| #44xoraxxSep 24, 2008 9:28:58 | I don't see an (Ex) after the Spells ability in either the PHB (looking at wizards) or the MM (looking at bronze and copper dragons). I'm fairly certain that spells are probably considered spell-like abilities, if not actual spells. MM5 considers spellcasting (Ex) though (examples: Hobgoblin Warsoul/Warcaster, Ushemoi Arkamoi and Kuo-Toa Exalted Whip) |
| #45BloodDragonSep 24, 2008 10:17:54 | Arogenith what are you trying to achieve here? Are you looking for some rulings to put in a game you’re going to be Playing/DMing or is this just a honest simple competition? If it's the ladder then you'll have to accept characters with some cheese worked into them- this is the Opt boards after all. We’re here to be “The best you can be- within the given rules.” Even low-level spells can produce 1-sided battles such as Alterself (something with a burrowing speed)+Spring Attack feat. Or even Fly: Land bound opponents will be stumped as they are pummeled with fireballs and cloudkills from above. Even if they pull out a bow? You cast wind wall. The problem in these kind challenges is that every prepared caster effectively has “every spell prepared,” unlike in a real campaign where they have to choose X many spells per day. However to say “Alright everyone must list which spells they’ve prepare,” Is equally unfair because that’s effectively turning every Wizard into a lobotomized Sorcerer. Then again as many people have already stated, there are universal spells that “fix” all problems any way. If it’s the former for some campaign then I wouldn’t worry about it so much because a wizard can only prepare so many spells a day and if you’re the DM you will be throwing many different types of challenges at them. A wizard can’t be spending all of his spells on everything- to do every task- for everyone all day long, that’s assuming he’s even prepared the right spell for the right task. Which is why a Wizard or other Spellcaster rely on their party members. So long as everyone in the party has a purpose and are decently built towards that purpose, you shouldn’t have too many problems. |
| #46mestarSep 24, 2008 16:13:02 | MM5 considers spellcasting (Ex) though (examples: Hobgoblin Warsoul/Warcaster, Ushemoi Arkamoi and Kuo-Toa Exalted Whip) They're Ex abilities that give you the Su and Sp abilities of another class. "...as 8th level evil cleric" and "...as 9th level wizard". Spell casting, for wizards and clerics, are not Ex abilities. |
| #47xoraxxSep 25, 2008 9:09:30 | They're Ex abilities that give you the Su and Sp abilities of another class. "...as 8th level evil cleric" and "...as 9th level wizard". Spell casting, for wizards and clerics, are not Ex abilities. I don't see any mention of getting spellcasting as a Su or Sp ability in any of the arcane/divine talent discriptions Also it is nowhere stated what kind of ability "wizard spellcasting" is.. closest thing I've found is MM5 and that states Ex |
| #48pithicaSep 25, 2008 9:54:59 | I would venture to guess that it's because a Wizard doesn't actually lose his or her ability to cast spells in antimagic/dead magic, they just lose the ability for the effects to actually happen. (As far as I know, you can cast (blow) spells in an AMF, it's just that you lose the spell/spellslot from memory and nothing happens.) |
| #49jaronkSep 25, 2008 13:22:54 | How does Polymorph give you spellcasting? In the MM(p305) Extraordinary abilities are defined as (among other parameters) abilities that don't go away in an antimagic field. Spellcasting on the other hand does go away. Take a look in the PHB, I believe page 190, at the four ability types. All abilities must be either Su, Sp, Ex, or Na (because anything that's not the first three is by definition natural). Su abilities ignore spell resistance so that can't be right, because spells don't do that. Sp never use component costs, so it can't be that. It must therefor be Ex or Na. It wasn't until MMV that it became clearly defined as Ex due to certain creatures there that list the casting as Ex. And note that the ability to cast spells is Ex, but the spells themselves are magical. You don't lose the ability to cast spells completely in an AMF, your spells are simply supressed, if that makes sense. You would still, for example, count as a spellcaster when you're in an AMF because you still have the class feature "spells." JaronK |
| #50awaken_D_M_golemSep 27, 2008 14:39:18 | 1/2 Fey Commoner all the way. Helps make and pays for an Item of Hypnosis. Upgrades item to Quickened whenever the moolah allows. Casts Charm Person and then activates Hypnosis item, as every encounter tactic. Gets an Item of Telepathy as soon as possible. Result: Diplomancer on the real cheap. |
| #51SenevriSep 27, 2008 15:16:52 | Naw, you'll end up with rulebook-induced trauma, that way. After the DM has taught you the error of your ways - namely, mindless opponents. |
| #52jaronkSep 27, 2008 15:30:36 | Heh, should we use all commoner optimization? That's fun. I can make a commoner charger that can one shot CR 20 opponents pretty reliably (except the Terrasque of course). JaronK |
| #53aktarielSep 28, 2008 2:29:08 | Heh, should we use all commoner optimization? That's fun. I can make a commoner charger that can one shot CR 20 opponents pretty reliably (except the Terrasque of course). I'd be interested in seeing that. (Though I have no doubt that it's possible.) |
| #54jaronkSep 28, 2008 3:14:55 | No problem. Orc Commoner 20 (note: Dragonborn Water Orc would be the best option, but Orc is all you really need). Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack Spirited Charge, Shock Trooper, Headlong Rush Gear: Permanent Enlarge Person, Strongarm Bracers, +1 Huge Valorous Skillfull Lance, Tooth of Leraje, stuff that gives you a reroll per day or some item of Truestrike, a Huge or larger flying mount, stuff that boosts your strength So, you effectively have a huge +5 lance due to the tooth, which does a base 3d6+5 damage, average 15.5. It's skillfull, which gives you proficiency for free and sets your BAB to +15. So, with Shock Trooper and Power Attack, you trade 15 AC to get +30 damage on the charge. Figure a strength of 30 (very reasonable at level 20 on an Orc), so that's +15 damage, so now we're at 60.5 damage on the charge. Now, Valorous doubles damage when charging, as does Headlong Rush, and a Lance with Spirited Charge triples it, so the end result with D&D math is X5 damage on the charge, dealing an average of 302.5 damage on the charge, plus whatever the mount does. That's enough to take out most CR 20 opponents (though you might want to make sure the lance can get through some DR). You can boost the damage a little with more items... even small damage boosts matter a lot when you're quintupling the damage like that! Also, you can enchant the lance further for even more damage. JaronK |