What's the freaking point of a mass migration? They'll keep the forum here, people will keep coming to it. Even if all the regulars transition from here to BGs, then new regulars will pop-up here to take our place.
Better tools? G0 wanting to kill off 339? When 4th hits the fan the reorg won't be pretty.
Most of the important stuff is in the CO PDF at this point anyways.
Better tools?
I've seen her forum, its pretty nice.
G0 wanting to kill off 339?
That's patently untrue.
When 4th hits the fan the reorg won't be pretty.
I'm willing to wait to see what the exact plan is.
Most of the important stuff is in the CO PDF at this point anyways.
True.
All the handbooks and years of posts are here too.
Umm... Move the handbooks over to Autumn's forum and DELETE the ones here (that is, if the guys that did the handbooks are willing to do so)?
That's patently untrue.
That's right, he just doesn't value d20 (wants less d20 influence from what I can tell).
That's right, he just doesn't value d20 (wants less d20 influence from what I can tell).
Did not understand the section of the forum. It IS a big place, y'know.
Did not understand the section of the forum. It IS a big place, y'know.
Sounds about right. As a sidenote, BG has great smileys.
Link to said forum?
www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards
Sorry about that.
I'd love to still have the opportunity to help the CO community flourish, and if it can't be here, then to my forums.
It's different though, my preexisting forums aren't a replacement and could never replace this community. But I'm hoping the fact that its smaller, fan run, community based, and no business ties means it will naturally be very different.
My goal is that the different = awesome
I'd love to still have the opportunity to help the CO community flourish, and if it can't be here, then to my forums.
It's different though, my preexisting forums aren't a replacement and could never replace this community. But I'm hoping the fact that its smaller, fan run, community based, and no business ties means it will naturally be very different.
My goal is that the different = awesome
Community is where the people are, not some address.
Most of the important stuff is in the CO PDF at this point anyways.
CO PDF?
I feel kind of silly for missing this, especially since I've saved a ton of the handbooks as PDFs, and this could have saved me some time. Link?
Community is where the people are, not some address.
People make the community, the community doesn't exist at the will or whim of another. All the love we have for the game, each other, and the desire to wring every last piece of information out of the game rules is what makes the community. The rest is just a place to hang your cloak or post your guidebook.
So you were talking about how you didn't want the community divided but now your doing this?
Who is the "you"? You're missing the pronoun antecedant.
People make the community, the community doesn't exist at the will or whim of another. All the love we have for the game, each other, and the desire to wring every last piece of information out of the game rules is what makes the community. The rest is just a place to hang your cloak or post your guidebook.
This seems like you're unaware of basically everything.
:D
Who is the "you"? You're missing the pronoun antecedant.
>.< Note to self pay more attention to what threads your in and who your replying to. Any way I signed up there (I'll give you three guess who I am), still mainly going to use this place.
Hopefully this won't be the case and management will see the light. Sadly, things don't currently seem to be headed in that direction.
Which reminds me, I need to register at http://brilliantgameologists.com
(And put something in your sig)
Also... Link to the pdf? I must have missed it.
Autumn has said time and time again (correct me if I am wrong) that she will rather use her board as a supplemental resource. Users come there if they want and not necessarily for the CO content, but for other purposes as well. After all, there is a lot of different boards in there.
Remember that we are here to help newcomers. At least one of the reasons I am here is to share my knowledge with anyone who wants to get a piece of our collective CO-fu. When a player looks for optimization help he is going to come here and might not follow the link at all. I know I hardly ever go to forums that are advertised like that. Or in any other matter actually. New users are likely not to know Autumn and the magnificent group of users we have at her place.
Moreover, I am not going to abandon this place. On a daily basis new users come here to ask for help, old geezers share their ideas and there hasn't been a day when I haven't laughed at something in here. Seeing all the variables and factors involved in this, I do not even believe that it is possible for us to replace the CO boards.
As of now, the migration is coming when 4e comes, but I don't care. Recent events have sapped respect of some individuals, but I am not going to leave this place because of a few rotten eggs no matter what's the situation. The little time I have been at Autumn's board I have posted actively and I will continue working for the good of that community, because it has potential and so far the execution has been astounding.
I'll still be here to funnel people.
At least you have enthusiasm and building up the existing community at Autumn's is fine.
Just that Autumn's board will be where we locate any important projects. BTW, Autumn offered her forum a while ago for when G0 almost killed CharOp. Now he is showing himself a danger to the online community.
Yes, I remember that. However, I do not believe G0 is a danger to the online community as you put it. He made some mistakes that is for sure, but I cannot see him actively undermining this community. Apart from the migration solution that is and I have hard time believing he is the only person deciding about the matter.
CO's big stuff will just be safer at BG.
Kind of. Depends on how do you see the position of the big stuff here. I personally do not believe that anyone will fall to insanity and start deleting our threads that still are readily available at SurrealDex and other sources that can be found easily. However, spreading the knowledge to other boards is not going to hurt anyone...
edit: crap i just rembered without useing this board the ideas spawned will be less likely to ever reach the ears of WotC, which could be a problem since we have just started to take the baby steps to being a real influence hear.
edit: crap i just rembered without useing this board the ideas spawned will be less likely to ever reach the ears of WotC, which could be a problem since we have just started to take the baby steps to being a real influence hear.
And their products will suffer as a result.
That's what happens when a company allows it's customer and community relations to alienate such a large and influential group.
Most of the "halp, my fighter sucks and the druid is killing everything" threads, however, will probably stay over here. While we might toss them over to the fighter handbook on BG, they'll still start over here because it's the official forum and where people are most likely to first come for help.
(At least, I assume that's the normal way of doing things. I actually ended up here by typing "character optimization" into google, and decided to play Dungeons and Dragons based on what I saw here)
I was assuming that the handbooks, projects, contests, fancy builds, new research and breakthroughs would end up on BrilliantGameologists. The people who are responsible for all those things have moved over there, and all of these things benefit only a tiny amount from the help of beginners anyway.
Most of the "halp, my fighter sucks and the druid is killing everything" threads, however, will probably stay over here. While we might toss them over to the fighter handbook on BG, they'll still start over here because it's the official forum and where people are most likely to first come for help.
(At least, I assume that's the normal way of doing things. I actually ended up here by typing "character optimization" into google, and decided to play Dungeons and Dragons based on what I saw here)
That's an interesting thought: move all the Theoretical and handbook stuff over to BrilliantGamologists and keep this forum as an assistance line.
That's an interesting thought: move all the Theoretical and handbook stuff over to BrilliantGamologists and keep this forum as an assistance line.
+2
David
EDIT: Ignore me, I didn't search hard enough.
So, out of fear of seeing it deleted, I've hastily backed up the latest version of ToB for Dummies onto my hard drive and I'm all set to migrate over. I would really hope that doesn't become necessary though - no matter how good the BG forum becomes the WotC boards will remain the default starting point for any noobs. These boards have provided so much help, improved so many people's experiences of the game, that I think it would be a crying shame to lose them. The recent "I don't need your help. Thanks" thread is a perfect example, and I get a nice fuzzy feeling when people say that ToB for Dummies helped them.
I think we should all hold off on a final decision on migration for now. Nothing will happen till Monday at the absolute earliest. Unless and until they actually shut this forum down I'll stick around (although I will never pay for D&DI so long as this moderating team would have the power to confiscate my money).
Now, saying all that, even if this issue is ultimately resolved I think that the BG forums could be a wonderful development. As well as optimization tips, I've also really enjoyed discussions about DMing styles, tips, roleplaying, etc that we've had on these boards. I generally can't be bothered with the rest of the forums as they seemed swamped with Paladin Alignment and Fighter Fix threads. There's good stuff there, but there's so much dross to wade through I rarely bother. If BG can become a forum revolving around CO, but also covering other aspects of D&D and RPGs ore extensively than CO has with the same excellent community of posters, then it would be fantastic imho.
1) Host all big projects at BG (a new surrealdex is already up).
2) Encourage people posting in 339 to post in BG.
3) Keep 339 alive to send people to BG. Alive in the sense of the epic forum in relation to dicefreaks.
Most Online Today: 38. Most Online Ever: 38 (Today at 04:18:54 PM)
That should encourage any stragglers :D There's plenty of activity over there - I have 65 posts already.
That should encourage any stragglers :D There's plenty of activity over there - I have 65 posts already.
Pffft, spammer.
Edit: I mean keep up the good work!
A BUNCH of the regs are over at BG. Roughly 120 joins since thursday. CO averages 50 registered at any time. Right now we average about 80% of the normal "big name" rate. Those at BG seem to have the following idea:
1) Host all big projects at BG (a new surrealdex is already up).
2) Encourage people posting in 339 to post in BG.
3) Keep 339 alive to send people to BG. Alive in the sense of the epic forum in relation to dicefreaks.
Or you can wait and see what happens first. If (And thats a big IF) GO does delete the CO then migrate over, if not this place should still be the main area.
Or you can wait and see what happens first. If (And thats a big IF) GO does delete the CO then migrate over, if not this place should still be the main area.
Realistically, why? If 4E optimization starts with BG as the primary home the COmmunity loses NOTHING. 3.5 has history here (which is why I don't want 339 completely dead), but 4E has plenty of reasons to take place at BG over 339.
Also: CO PbP forum at BG!
Realistically, why? If 4E optimization starts with BG as the primary home the COmmunity loses NOTHING. 3.5 has history here (which is why I don't want 339 completely dead), but 4E has plenty of reasons to take place at BG over 339.
Also: CO PbP forum at BG!
You are utterly disregarding that we are also here to help users new to the community. Every step between us and them is going to reduce the chance that they find help to their problems. That is exactly why we shouldn't abandon our activity here.
You are utterly disregarding that we are also here to help users new to the community. Every step between us and them is going to reduce the chance that they find help to their problems. That is exactly why we shouldn't abandon our activity here.
Which is why there will be a stickied link to BG and links in several sigs with people showing the way. Dicefreaks is a great community with just referals and no sticky. People will find the way just fine.
Which is why there will be a stickied link to BG and links in several sigs with people showing the way. Dicefreaks is a great community with just referals and no sticky. People will find the way just fine.
It's an unnecessary step between two boards and it will drop of some users. You and me both know that not all newcomers read the stickies and it's not like that was going to change in the future. If you are going to say that is their loss, not ours, you are exactly right. However, I don't want them to suffer that loss just because we insisted on making things more difficult to them.
And what about Dicefreaks? It's a small community with their own views and I haven't seen too many new people joining there either.
It's an unnecessary step between two boards and it will drop of some users. You and me both know that not all newcomers read the stickies and it's not like that was going to change in the future. If you are going to say that is their loss, not ours, you are exactly right. However, I don't want them to suffer that loss just because we insisted on making things more difficult to them.
And what about Dicefreaks? It's a small community with their own views and I haven't seen too many new people joining there either.
Exactly what I was trying to say.
I'll see how things turn out before making any FT commitments.
Brilliant Gameologists needs min/maxers. We're dealing with the normal gaming community who equates min/maxing with powergaming and killing babies (by their tones at least). My goal is to showcase to a normal crowd what min maxing is and what it isn't and have lots and lots of examples to show.
It's also system neutral, so I'm hoping that can come up more.
The code of conduct is different-- if you feel at all restrained by the CoC here, it may be a good choice.
Finally, it truly is community driven. If you want to be in the driver's seat, it could be a good choice.
That being said, there will probably still be reasons to come here too. Everyone chooses their own level of involvement on the projects they are part of.
It's an unnecessary step between two boards and it will drop of some users. You and me both know that not all newcomers read the stickies and it's not like that was going to change in the future. If you are going to say that is their loss, not ours, you are exactly right. However, I don't want them to suffer that loss just because we insisted on making things more difficult to them.
And what about Dicefreaks? It's a small community with their own views and I haven't seen too many new people joining there either.
I'm also all for sharing time between the forums.
[offtopic]About Dicefreaks : I really like their work, but lurking there does not especially makes me want to be part of it. I'm sure they are welcoming, but the community feels closed - in part due to the clear hierarchy (Serge & co at the top deciding on the "canon").[/offtopic]
As for migrating guides or creating new ones, I'm advocating the CO Wiki.
This community could be next.
Some may believe that since this is one of the most active communities in the WoTC/Gleemax empire that the quality work done here will be preserved. Hopefully this is the case. However, other communities have found that NOT to be the case and have discovered their contributions deleted.
Even if it is not malicious, there is a decent chance that Optimization content that is not 4th edition specific will be ignored and possibly removed. If you value that content, you should do what you can to preserve it.
Some have begun compiling a repository of this information (which I think needs to be updated and publicized AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.) I know I would love to see another update of the .pdf of the CO compilation.
Others have begun personally migrating content they feel valuable to other boards. Primarily these boards are those that Autumn (the community lead who has guided Character Optimizations for 7 years) has recommended.
Hopefully things will work out and both management and the community will be served. It may not look that way due to management intractability right now, but it can happen.
[offtopic]About Dicefreaks : I really like their work, but lurking there does not especially makes me want to be part of it. I'm sure they are welcoming, but the community feels closed - in part due to the clear hierarchy (Serge & co at the top deciding on the "canon").[/offtopic]
Isn't that kind of clear seeing that he was the one who came up with the books?
Forgive me for being a noob, but could someone clarify what's happened here, say, in a nutshell? Who is Gamer_Zer0, what is 339, what and where is the CO board pdf, why do people feel that we're being pushed to migrate, and why do people feel that the boards my close on Monday? Sorry to ask so many questions, but I just haven't lived here as long as some others.
Autumn_serene one of the Wizos that started the Optimisation board area 8? years ago and has been an excellent community liasion since. She has very strong ties to many of the regulars and has somehow managed to keep her areas of concern civil and productive.
Gamer_Zer0 is one of the Community Managers employed by WotC.
339 is the forum id number for this board; you can see it in the URL on your address line.
The forums are being reorganised. Part of that reorganisation has the Optimisation boards being combined with Characer Development (roleplaying development), and other boards. There is talk of further refinement and more consolidation.
The VCL (that's Volunteer Community Lead) Autumn_serene has recently lost her position when CM (that's Community Management) refused to reinstate her when the position expired. The community is up in arms because (1) Autumn_serene is REALLY good at her job, (2) CM violated their own policies and procedures by assigning a person who had not openly applied, (3) the community felt the action was taken for petty and inappropriate reasons, and (4) the community felt the action taken was poorly thought out and insensitively performed.
CM's response to the uproar was also insensitive, poorly thought-out, and added to the upheaval, in my opinion.
4thing the request for a link to the CO PDF.
I'll make the fifth request, please. I had no idea a PDF even existed.
Thanks!
4thing the request for a link to the CO PDF.
[thread=977894]Here[/thread]
I didn't sign in for a few weeks (lots of work) and now I find out Autumn was "fired", the CO boards were about to be merged with the development boards, or are now just about to be completely archived/deleted at the release of 4E or even tomorrow as some people seem to fear.
I spent a couple of hours reading up on stuff (reorganization feedback threads, about the migration (obviously), the CO-pdf, the "goodbye and thanks for all the fish" thread and others), but still feel like I'm missing a lot of it. Could some one please explain what is most likely to happen now, or if I've missed something really important...?
I spent a couple of hours reading up on stuff (reorganization feedback threads, about the migration (obviously), the CO-pdf, the "goodbye and thanks for all the fish" thread and others), but still feel like I'm missing a lot of it. Could some one please explain what is most likely to happen now, or if I've missed something really important...?
Here is what it all boiled down to. Autumn said a nasty comment a few days ago and G0 flipped and then all this hell broke loose. Someone will explain it better detail.
What I am more interested in is the current state of the CO boards. Several regulars have moved to Autumn's board ready to abandon this one. I defend Autumn's board, but I want us to stay active here where people need help. Check Autumn's board though, a lot of great people (and me) are there.
Below is a basic timeline so far as I can piece together. Anything in angle brackets represents private and/or missing communication and may be out of sequence in the timeline.
Gamer_Zer0 tells Autumn_serene privately that he'll post an official notice of extension to VCL to the whole RPG section (search using Autumn_serene and key word of 'eventually' to find the claim).
Autumn_serene posts a thread critical of the RPG reorganisation.
Autumn_serene properly posts application to renew VCL as per the published process. No one else posts an application for the same area.
KJW does not post application for VCL.
Gamer_Zer0 declares KJW the new VCL. This breaks the application and review process presented by Gamer_Zer0.
Autumn_serene sees announcement and has private discussion with Gamer_Zer0 requesting reasons.
KJW initiates discussion with Autumn_serene. KJW suggests a co-VCL possibility.
Autumn_serene suggests KJW's proposal with Gamer_Zer0. Gamer_Zer0 makes clear that he will lose KJW as a VCL before allowing Autumn_serene to share the title. Autumn_serene says bad things to Gamer_Zer0.
KJW resigns.
Autumn_serene asks KJW to reconsider.
Autmun_serene posts goodbye thread.
Autumn_serene responds to a request about a petition with a link to the Concerns and Criticisms forum. (Petitions aren't allowed? I didn't know that -- it's not in the CoC; Autumn_serene should have though.)
Gamer_Zer0 states that several people applied for the position (false) and he picked one that didn't want it so he'd go back and review the rest of the applications (false -- there are none to review).
Autumn_serene's goodbye thread is moved and locked. Optimisation board regulars start to get upset.
Autumn_serene asks the Optimisation members to not discuss boycott or to engage in any activity that would cause warn/ban action against them.
Autumn_serene posts public request asking for reasoning behind not receiving a renewal.
Gamer_Zer0 accuses Autumn_serene of starting petitions
Rhetoric begins to escalate on all sides. Gamer_Zer0 starts describing Autumn_serene is as being more emotional and obstinate. Posts start vanishing and CM edits some of the original material away such as the announcement of KJW's appointment.
Gamer_Zer0 refuses to consider her for any VCL position and claims any application from her will face an uphill battle.
Gamer_Zer0 confesses he plays mind games with his volunteers.
Gamer_Zer0 makes a speculative post explaining how he thinks Autumn_serene persuaded or coerced KJW into resigning and how emotional she was.
Autumn_serene repudiates the post, calling it defamatory and libel.
KJW confirms Autumn_serene's version of events publicly.
The post remains on the board without change for a couple more days until Gamer_Zer0 edits its tone down.
Gamer_Zer0 attempts to convince/shame Autumn_serene to continue the VCL tasks without the title.
Thanks on my behalf as well, I'll read that through just to make sure I am on the right tracks.
Autumn has a VERY comprehensive rundown with links at Baai.
Autumn has a VERY comprehensive rundown with links at Baai.
Link please?
Get moving people.
No.
Link please?
Here you go. It took a long time to pull together and is huge but is as complete as I could make it at the time.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15892611&postcount=2348
What I am more interested in is the current state of the CO boards...
Yeah, that's what bugs me most right now too, especially the huge treasure of information collected here (Handy links). It seems almost impossible to save it all in time...
Time to start reading up on the CO-mpilation/migration of handy links and such. Wish I had more time.
No.
Fine, but then you won't get to see what's in my box. You want to see what's in the box, right? I'm just going to leave it in the BGBoards, and I'll look away...
Seriously, it's a lot more fun than Gleemax now.
On the other hand, you should go just to fight The Man, because he's Keeping You Down. Also, free punch and pie.
Personally, if that winds up being BG...sweet. I just hope we don't lose too much of our work in the process.
I like Autumn. She actually answered my PM's. The fact that she wasn't paid to do it makes me like her more. So I'll wind up at her site for that reason alone. But I'll still poke my head in here to see what's going on.
I've got broadband and tabbed-browsing. I can do both. :D
How long will this one stay open, I wonder?
I just noticed that tsuyoshikentsu's thread also got locked.
How long will this one stay open, I wonder?
Well from what I gathered, it was mentioned that a post linking to Autumn's thread could be stickied, so maybe that will happen instead.