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Level 20 tips?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
symphonic_tempest
Apr 10, 2008 23:30:14 Ok, I checked the thread index and found nothing. I'm making a level 20 character for the first time, and really didn't know where to start. I've played up through 16 before, but I'm aware that level 20 is where, if you don't have all your stuff together, you lose as soon as initiative is rolled.

Now, I'm personally making a character for a dragonslaying one-shot (already found the threads in the index on that), but I was hoping for something more general that other newer players might find useful.

When you make a level 20 character (of any class, really), what does it have to have - where do you start? Does HP become irrelevant, as you're dead as soon as you get hit? What level of saves/AC/etc do you need to shoot for to be worthwhile? Are you going to be useless if you don't have mind blank? That sort of thing, really. All you veterans of epic and near-epic play ought to have some useful input, I'm hoping. :D
#2
brainpiercing
Apr 11, 2008 3:27:48
I've played up through 16 before, but I'm aware that level 20 is where, if you don't have all your stuff together, you lose as soon as initiative is rolled.

That's not necessarily true. It only really happens if you lose against a save-or-die, or if you play a duel against an optimised player character. Most critters can only kill you quickly with SoDs. And guess what helps: SAVES.

When you make a level 20 character (of any class, really), what does it have to have - where do you start? Does HP become irrelevant, as you're dead as soon as you get hit? What level of saves/AC/etc do you need to shoot for to be worthwhile? Are you going to be useless if you don't have mind blank? That sort of thing, really. All you veterans of epic and near-epic play ought to have some useful input, I'm hoping. :D

IMHO not too many things change.
What you want is:
Damage or Battlefield control, at best both.
Saves
HP
Immunities (better than saves)
Armour class, or better, stuff that gives percentiles on Not-Getting-Hit.
You also absolutely want to be able to fly.
You want to be able to see invisible stuff, unless your party caster is really quick and good with those dispels. Even so, if you're the beatstick you'll be possibly missing a round, so you still want it.

Armour class is a mixed bag. You want it, badly. But then, there are CR20 critters that will hit you no matter how high your AC. Also, while you can power your AC like crazy, mostly you will lose out on other things, like caster level.
For me, at high levels a point of Con bonus is easily worth more than a point of AC. However, you still want a high AC, or critters will start power-attacking you. If you can stack a high AC with stuff like Displacement and mirror image, that will be best.

I fail, however, to see your ultimate purpose with this thread. There are numerous builds to be found on this board. Many of which are absolutely great to the point of broken great. All the good builds sacrifice little for being able to seriously lay the smack down.

So, look around. You haven't even said what you want to play.
#3
Senevri
Apr 11, 2008 5:19:47 Against dragons?

You want AC around 60 to have a chance of not getting hit, although even 50-something means you won't get power attacked. As much.

Hitpoints, some definitely. 200+ should do, if you're not a frontliner.
Depends on your healing options, but you want to survive one round of full-attack.

AB at around 40, maybe 35 will do, if you attack AC, or ability to attack touch AC preferrably ( if there isn't scintillating scales, anyway. )
...
Of course, that depends on how nasty your DM is.
Give the dragon an amulet of nat. armor +5, Greater Mage Armor and Scintillating Scales and Haste...

Good will save or immunity to fear.
Evasion.
...

Frankly, I wouldn't want to melee with dragons too much. Still, a pre-warned, pre-armed party of dragon slayers with buffing time have a chance... if they can do their preparations without going through all the traps first.
#4
loganic1
Apr 11, 2008 5:21:29 This is the CO board. Most builds here are made for 20 and focus on decent damage, or speed or something fun like that.

If you play D&D for a while, equipment is what makes or breaks you a lot of the time. Your build helps you with combos, but equipment compensates for what you have trouble or weaknesses towards so you don't fall on your face so fast.

Equipment tips you should know:
You can pay double for your item to make it, so that it does not occupy a body slot. In other words, so you can stack it.
You can take 30% off if you make an item class or alignment specific (ie CN or LG)
You can take 10% off if you make it require a skill check. You can burn a feat, Skill focus, if you don't want to have a chance of failing.

Important items:
Belt of Battle
Ioun stones
All the stat boosting items.
Amulet of natural armor
Bags of holding

Casting glove x 2
the many symbol of gods that increase your caster level.

Other important ones to get
Ring or ioun of food/sustenance
boots of quicksilver
Enchantments to give your ER/SR

I tend to get Celestial Armor, since I tend to have high AC/high Dex Characters.
I think 40+ AC would be decent at 20, although 50+ would be more ideal.
Look at the AC optimization thread I made
#5
Wyvernhand
Apr 11, 2008 8:25:29 The best tip for playing at level 20? Win initiative. Most high level encounters with moderately optimized characters can be resolved a lot more quickly simply by having the DM and players make opposed init check, winner take all, loser pay 5 grand in diamond dust (provided the winner doesn't do something drastic....like eat your body...or your soul...).

With that said, for boosting init, items like a Belt of Battle, an Eager or Warning weapon, an IWIN stone and a luck stone, a level in Marshal for motivate Dex if you have the Cha, a casting of Battle Readiness, Nerveskitter, and/or Signs will all help you. I've been in a party with an init bonus in the low 30s....that was a blast. The DM even put in a dramatic pause between when the slowest party member went and the fastest enemy got his turn.
#6
loganic1
Apr 11, 2008 22:57:33 I'm sorry, but I've always found init nice but it was stupid to focus on it.
Making a stealth character is so much more efficient, and I'd try to get the other people in the party to go stealth as well.

Invisibility, flight, favor of martyr, celerity.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 symphonic_tempest Apr 10, 2008 23:30:14	Ok, I checked the thread index and found nothing. I'm making a level 20 character for the first time, and really didn't know where to start. I've played up through 16 before, but I'm aware that level 20 is where, if you don't have all your stuff together, you lose as soon as initiative is rolled. Now, I'm personally making a character for a dragonslaying one-shot (already found the threads in the index on that), but I was hoping for something more general that other newer players might find useful. When you make a level 20 character (of any class, really), what does it have to have - where do you start? Does HP become irrelevant, as you're dead as soon as you get hit? What level of saves/AC/etc do you need to shoot for to be worthwhile? Are you going to be useless if you don't have mind blank? That sort of thing, really. All you veterans of epic and near-epic play ought to have some useful input, I'm hoping. :D
#2 brainpiercing Apr 11, 2008 3:27:48	I've played up through 16 before, but I'm aware that level 20 is where, if you don't have all your stuff together, you lose as soon as initiative is rolled. That's not necessarily true. It only really happens if you lose against a save-or-die, or if you play a duel against an optimised player character. Most critters can only kill you quickly with SoDs. And guess what helps: SAVES. When you make a level 20 character (of any class, really), what does it have to have - where do you start? Does HP become irrelevant, as you're dead as soon as you get hit? What level of saves/AC/etc do you need to shoot for to be worthwhile? Are you going to be useless if you don't have mind blank? That sort of thing, really. All you veterans of epic and near-epic play ought to have some useful input, I'm hoping. :D IMHO not too many things change. What you want is: Damage or Battlefield control, at best both. Saves HP Immunities (better than saves) Armour class, or better, stuff that gives percentiles on Not-Getting-Hit. You also absolutely want to be able to fly. You want to be able to see invisible stuff, unless your party caster is really quick and good with those dispels. Even so, if you're the beatstick you'll be possibly missing a round, so you still want it. Armour class is a mixed bag. You want it, badly. But then, there are CR20 critters that will hit you no matter how high your AC. Also, while you can power your AC like crazy, mostly you will lose out on other things, like caster level. For me, at high levels a point of Con bonus is easily worth more than a point of AC. However, you still want a high AC, or critters will start power-attacking you. If you can stack a high AC with stuff like Displacement and mirror image, that will be best. I fail, however, to see your ultimate purpose with this thread. There are numerous builds to be found on this board. Many of which are absolutely great to the point of broken great. All the good builds sacrifice little for being able to seriously lay the smack down. So, look around. You haven't even said what you want to play.
#3 Senevri Apr 11, 2008 5:19:47	Against dragons? You want AC around 60 to have a chance of not getting hit, although even 50-something means you won't get power attacked. As much. Hitpoints, some definitely. 200+ should do, if you're not a frontliner. Depends on your healing options, but you want to survive one round of full-attack. AB at around 40, maybe 35 will do, if you attack AC, or ability to attack touch AC preferrably ( if there isn't scintillating scales, anyway. ) ... Of course, that depends on how nasty your DM is. Give the dragon an amulet of nat. armor +5, Greater Mage Armor and Scintillating Scales and Haste... Good will save or immunity to fear. Evasion. ... Frankly, I wouldn't want to melee with dragons too much. Still, a pre-warned, pre-armed party of dragon slayers with buffing time have a chance... if they can do their preparations without going through all the traps first.
#4 loganic1 Apr 11, 2008 5:21:29	This is the CO board. Most builds here are made for 20 and focus on decent damage, or speed or something fun like that. If you play D&D for a while, equipment is what makes or breaks you a lot of the time. Your build helps you with combos, but equipment compensates for what you have trouble or weaknesses towards so you don't fall on your face so fast. Equipment tips you should know: You can pay double for your item to make it, so that it does not occupy a body slot. In other words, so you can stack it. You can take 30% off if you make an item class or alignment specific (ie CN or LG) You can take 10% off if you make it require a skill check. You can burn a feat, Skill focus, if you don't want to have a chance of failing. Important items: Belt of Battle Ioun stones All the stat boosting items. Amulet of natural armor Bags of holding Casting glove x 2 the many symbol of gods that increase your caster level. Other important ones to get Ring or ioun of food/sustenance boots of quicksilver Enchantments to give your ER/SR I tend to get Celestial Armor, since I tend to have high AC/high Dex Characters. I think 40+ AC would be decent at 20, although 50+ would be more ideal. Look at the AC optimization thread I made
#5 Wyvernhand Apr 11, 2008 8:25:29	The best tip for playing at level 20? Win initiative. Most high level encounters with moderately optimized characters can be resolved a lot more quickly simply by having the DM and players make opposed init check, winner take all, loser pay 5 grand in diamond dust (provided the winner doesn't do something drastic....like eat your body...or your soul...). With that said, for boosting init, items like a Belt of Battle, an Eager or Warning weapon, an IWIN stone and a luck stone, a level in Marshal for motivate Dex if you have the Cha, a casting of Battle Readiness, Nerveskitter, and/or Signs will all help you. I've been in a party with an init bonus in the low 30s....that was a blast. The DM even put in a dramatic pause between when the slowest party member went and the fastest enemy got his turn.
#6 loganic1 Apr 11, 2008 22:57:33	I'm sorry, but I've always found init nice but it was stupid to focus on it. Making a stealth character is so much more efficient, and I'd try to get the other people in the party to go stealth as well. Invisibility, flight, favor of martyr, celerity.