Level Bonuses and Polymorph - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Level Bonuses and Polymorph

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Endarire
Nov 07, 2008 0:05:27 "Add 1 point to any score upon attaining 4th level and every 4th level thereafter" - PHB10

This bonus is seemingly unnamed and instantaneous. Does this bonus apply to me when I'm polymorphed? What about instantaneous bonuses from manuals?
#2
natenate
Nov 07, 2008 0:29:51 Polymorph doesn't cause you to gain any additional levels, it simply counts your total hit dice as that of your current form. The form's total number of hit dice replaces your old total, even if it is higher it would not be considered a gain.

Ability score bonuses from manuals are Inherent bonuses, the same type as you would gain from a Wish or Miracle spell. They are completely unrelated to the points gained every 4th level.
#3
wagnersika
Nov 07, 2008 0:52:15 At every 4th level you can improve a stat by 1. It is not any kind of bonus. The stat simply changes.

Lets say at 4th level you add 1 to your dex score making it 14. You later change into a form that changes your dex to 16. It does not matter what your normal dex is. The polymorph effect replaces your dex score. If however you added 1 to your Int score it would stay during the polymorph as mental scores are not changed by the spell.
#4
Endarire
Nov 07, 2008 1:14:31 I realize polymorph doesn't change one's HD, but I wish to know if a manual of 5 DEX would affect me when polymorphed since Gloves of DEX would.
#5
natenate
Nov 07, 2008 1:32:49 No, it wouldn't. Gloves of Dex gives a bonus to your current Dex score. A Manual of Quickness +5 instantaneously increases your normal Dex score by 5 points. Polymorphing replaces your normal Dex score with that of your current form, to which your +5 Manual bonus wouldn't apply, though the bonus to your current Dex score from the gloves still would.
#6
brainpiercing
Nov 07, 2008 2:41:24
No, it wouldn't. Gloves of Dex gives a bonus to your current Dex score. A Manual of Quickness +5 instantaneously increases your normal Dex score by 5 points. Polymorphing replaces your normal Dex score with that of your current form, to which your +5 Manual bonus wouldn't apply, though the bonus to your current Dex score from the gloves still would.

Do you have a rules quote on that? Because to me it seems an inherent bonus has to carry over to any form, since it's a bonus, and not tied to anything. Unfortunately I can't back that up, either.
#7
Senevri
Nov 07, 2008 2:47:11 arguable.
It's a typed bonus, not part of the base score.
#8
kell_kheraptis
Nov 07, 2008 5:50:05
Do you have a rules quote on that? Because to me it seems an inherent bonus has to carry over to any form, since it's a bonus, and not tied to anything. Unfortunately I can't back that up, either.

An inherent bonus to a physical stat is mechanically identical to an unnamed bonus, differing only in having a cap of five (5) points. An enhancement bonus has no such limitation, such as from Gloves of Dexterity. Assuming your new form can wear such items, you may benefit from them (remembering enhancement bonuses don't stack with themselves, if you've cast other buff spells). Your inherently higher dexterity is changed to the dexterity of the new form, just as if your level-improved dexterity were to be changed. When the effect is dispelled/dismissed, your dexterity would return to it's natural value, then modified for any current conditions (spells still in effect, magical items, etc). Hopefully this example clears it up for you.
#9
hogarth
Nov 07, 2008 7:05:18
I realize polymorph doesn't change one's HD, but I wish to know if a manual of 5 DEX would affect me when polymorphed since Gloves of DEX would.

Sure; your inherent bonus doesn't go away just like an enhancement bonus from Bull's Strength wouldn't go away.

But the +1 every 4 levels stat bump isn't a bonus; it's just a numerical increase.
#10
atomickitkat
Nov 07, 2008 11:27:12 Which brings up a question someone else brought up elsewhere recently. Would you gain the +1 Feat/Ability Score by constantly reincarnating at say, level 12? Or is it, as I suspect, tied to the level-up process and lost when you die(and lose the level)?:P
#11
umopapisdn
Nov 10, 2008 2:00:13 When you lose the level from dying, you lose all you gained from leveling up, including the feat and stat increase. You can get those back when you level up again, along with your new HP, saves, BAB, skills, and class features.
#12
brainpiercing
Nov 10, 2008 5:10:52
An inherent bonus to a physical stat is mechanically identical to an unnamed bonus, differing only in having a cap of five (5) points. An enhancement bonus has no such limitation, such as from Gloves of Dexterity. Assuming your new form can wear such items, you may benefit from them (remembering enhancement bonuses don't stack with themselves, if you've cast other buff spells). Your inherently higher dexterity is changed to the dexterity of the new form, just as if your level-improved dexterity were to be changed. When the effect is dispelled/dismissed, your dexterity would return to it's natural value, then modified for any current conditions (spells still in effect, magical items, etc). Hopefully this example clears it up for you.

Well, IMHO an inherent bonus is just like a buff spell with a permanent duration. (For instance epic buffs with permanent duration can only create inherent bonuses.)
All buff spells stay active during polymorph, hence an inherent bonus should also stay in place.
#13
phaedrusxy
Nov 10, 2008 11:48:56
An inherent bonus to a physical stat is mechanically identical to an unnamed bonus, differing only in having a cap of five (5) points. An enhancement bonus has no such limitation, such as from Gloves of Dexterity. Assuming your new form can wear such items, you may benefit from them (remembering enhancement bonuses don't stack with themselves, if you've cast other buff spells). Your inherently higher dexterity is changed to the dexterity of the new form, just as if your level-improved dexterity were to be changed. When the effect is dispelled/dismissed, your dexterity would return to it's natural value, then modified for any current conditions (spells still in effect, magical items, etc). Hopefully this example clears it up for you.

There are no rules to support this position. This whole thing isn't covered by the rules at all, really, but since it is a typed bonus, I think that makes it more similiar to a "buff" spell. Hence it should carry over.

Saying the bonus "stays with the body" also causes problems. For example, it leaves open the possibility of having your familiar change bodies with a party-mate via Magic Jar, "sharing" a bunch of Wishes with the familiar via Share Spells to boost both your own and its physical ability scores, and then dismissing the Magic Jar. Congratulations, you and your party mate both just got your physical inherent bonuses for half-price. If you can somehow have multiple familiars or other targets for share spells, you can share them with even more party mates.
#14
carnivore
Nov 10, 2008 12:22:02 heres some useful info to look at:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060523a

if it were me..... id rule like this:

Bonuses that are Active ... Do apply to a New Form

Wishes give an Inherent Bonus to an Ability.... thus it is applied to any form you take with Polymorph.

Boosts to Attributes that you get every 4 levels are not Bonuses, they are simply Increases to an Attribute...

:D
#15
Senevri
Nov 11, 2008 9:00:47
Well, IMHO an inherent bonus is just like a buff spell with a permanent duration. (For instance epic buffs with permanent duration can only create inherent bonuses.)

Yes and no. You _gain_ the bonus instantaneously and it cannot be dispelled (via wishes, that is.)
Inherent bonuses aren't generally special in any way, except that ones gained from wishes are instantaneously received and thus cannot be dispelled.

I would still probably rule in an actual game, that inherent bonuses are effectively a part of the base score, and thus will be replaced by the stats of a new shape...
However RAW:

Polymorph: "The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form"

Wish: "Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score."

Seems rather clear-cut. Bonuses from Wishes apply to all assumed forms.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Endarire Nov 07, 2008 0:05:27	"Add 1 point to any score upon attaining 4th level and every 4th level thereafter" - PHB10 This bonus is seemingly unnamed and instantaneous. Does this bonus apply to me when I'm polymorphed? What about instantaneous bonuses from manuals?
#2 natenate Nov 07, 2008 0:29:51	Polymorph doesn't cause you to gain any additional levels, it simply counts your total hit dice as that of your current form. The form's total number of hit dice replaces your old total, even if it is higher it would not be considered a gain. Ability score bonuses from manuals are Inherent bonuses, the same type as you would gain from a Wish or Miracle spell. They are completely unrelated to the points gained every 4th level.
#3 wagnersika Nov 07, 2008 0:52:15	At every 4th level you can improve a stat by 1. It is not any kind of bonus. The stat simply changes. Lets say at 4th level you add 1 to your dex score making it 14. You later change into a form that changes your dex to 16. It does not matter what your normal dex is. The polymorph effect replaces your dex score. If however you added 1 to your Int score it would stay during the polymorph as mental scores are not changed by the spell.
#4 Endarire Nov 07, 2008 1:14:31	I realize polymorph doesn't change one's HD, but I wish to know if a manual of 5 DEX would affect me when polymorphed since Gloves of DEX would.
#5 natenate Nov 07, 2008 1:32:49	No, it wouldn't. Gloves of Dex gives a bonus to your current Dex score. A Manual of Quickness +5 instantaneously increases your normal Dex score by 5 points. Polymorphing replaces your normal Dex score with that of your current form, to which your +5 Manual bonus wouldn't apply, though the bonus to your current Dex score from the gloves still would.
#6 brainpiercing Nov 07, 2008 2:41:24	No, it wouldn't. Gloves of Dex gives a bonus to your current Dex score. A Manual of Quickness +5 instantaneously increases your normal Dex score by 5 points. Polymorphing replaces your normal Dex score with that of your current form, to which your +5 Manual bonus wouldn't apply, though the bonus to your current Dex score from the gloves still would. Do you have a rules quote on that? Because to me it seems an inherent bonus has to carry over to any form, since it's a bonus, and not tied to anything. Unfortunately I can't back that up, either.
#7 Senevri Nov 07, 2008 2:47:11	arguable. It's a typed bonus, not part of the base score.
#8 kell_kheraptis Nov 07, 2008 5:50:05	Do you have a rules quote on that? Because to me it seems an inherent bonus has to carry over to any form, since it's a bonus, and not tied to anything. Unfortunately I can't back that up, either. An inherent bonus to a physical stat is mechanically identical to an unnamed bonus, differing only in having a cap of five (5) points. An enhancement bonus has no such limitation, such as from Gloves of Dexterity. Assuming your new form can wear such items, you may benefit from them (remembering enhancement bonuses don't stack with themselves, if you've cast other buff spells). Your inherently higher dexterity is changed to the dexterity of the new form, just as if your level-improved dexterity were to be changed. When the effect is dispelled/dismissed, your dexterity would return to it's natural value, then modified for any current conditions (spells still in effect, magical items, etc). Hopefully this example clears it up for you.
#9 hogarth Nov 07, 2008 7:05:18	I realize polymorph doesn't change one's HD, but I wish to know if a manual of 5 DEX would affect me when polymorphed since Gloves of DEX would. Sure; your inherent bonus doesn't go away just like an enhancement bonus from Bull's Strength wouldn't go away. But the +1 every 4 levels stat bump isn't a bonus; it's just a numerical increase.
#10 atomickitkat Nov 07, 2008 11:27:12	Which brings up a question someone else brought up elsewhere recently. Would you gain the +1 Feat/Ability Score by constantly reincarnating at say, level 12? Or is it, as I suspect, tied to the level-up process and lost when you die(and lose the level)?:P
#11 umopapisdn Nov 10, 2008 2:00:13	When you lose the level from dying, you lose all you gained from leveling up, including the feat and stat increase. You can get those back when you level up again, along with your new HP, saves, BAB, skills, and class features.
#12 brainpiercing Nov 10, 2008 5:10:52	An inherent bonus to a physical stat is mechanically identical to an unnamed bonus, differing only in having a cap of five (5) points. An enhancement bonus has no such limitation, such as from Gloves of Dexterity. Assuming your new form can wear such items, you may benefit from them (remembering enhancement bonuses don't stack with themselves, if you've cast other buff spells). Your inherently higher dexterity is changed to the dexterity of the new form, just as if your level-improved dexterity were to be changed. When the effect is dispelled/dismissed, your dexterity would return to it's natural value, then modified for any current conditions (spells still in effect, magical items, etc). Hopefully this example clears it up for you. Well, IMHO an inherent bonus is just like a buff spell with a permanent duration. (For instance epic buffs with permanent duration can only create inherent bonuses.) All buff spells stay active during polymorph, hence an inherent bonus should also stay in place.
#13 phaedrusxy Nov 10, 2008 11:48:56	An inherent bonus to a physical stat is mechanically identical to an unnamed bonus, differing only in having a cap of five (5) points. An enhancement bonus has no such limitation, such as from Gloves of Dexterity. Assuming your new form can wear such items, you may benefit from them (remembering enhancement bonuses don't stack with themselves, if you've cast other buff spells). Your inherently higher dexterity is changed to the dexterity of the new form, just as if your level-improved dexterity were to be changed. When the effect is dispelled/dismissed, your dexterity would return to it's natural value, then modified for any current conditions (spells still in effect, magical items, etc). Hopefully this example clears it up for you. There are no rules to support this position. This whole thing isn't covered by the rules at all, really, but since it is a typed bonus, I think that makes it more similiar to a "buff" spell. Hence it should carry over. Saying the bonus "stays with the body" also causes problems. For example, it leaves open the possibility of having your familiar change bodies with a party-mate via Magic Jar, "sharing" a bunch of Wishes with the familiar via Share Spells to boost both your own and its physical ability scores, and then dismissing the Magic Jar. Congratulations, you and your party mate both just got your physical inherent bonuses for half-price. If you can somehow have multiple familiars or other targets for share spells, you can share them with even more party mates.
#14 carnivore Nov 10, 2008 12:22:02	heres some useful info to look at: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060523a if it were me..... id rule like this: Bonuses that are Active ... Do apply to a New Form Wishes give an Inherent Bonus to an Ability.... thus it is applied to any form you take with Polymorph. Boosts to Attributes that you get every 4 levels are not Bonuses, they are simply Increases to an Attribute... :D
#15 Senevri Nov 11, 2008 9:00:47	Well, IMHO an inherent bonus is just like a buff spell with a permanent duration. (For instance epic buffs with permanent duration can only create inherent bonuses.) Yes and no. You _gain_ the bonus instantaneously and it cannot be dispelled (via wishes, that is.) Inherent bonuses aren't generally special in any way, except that ones gained from wishes are instantaneously received and thus cannot be dispelled. I would still probably rule in an actual game, that inherent bonuses are effectively a part of the base score, and thus will be replaced by the stats of a new shape... However RAW: Polymorph: "The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form" Wish: "Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score." Seems rather clear-cut. Bonuses from Wishes apply to all assumed forms.