Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Endarire Mar 11, 2009 21:07:39	People complain about the brokenness of level X spells, especially 9, but what if mere mortals couldn't get that far? Is it the presence of level X spells that strains or breaks the game, or is it the higher BAB, skills, and class features of people of level 11, 13, 15, or otherwise? What about lower-level spells below the cap that scale especially well, like polymorph? For example, what if characters maxed out at level 10? Would people cry foul because of scry & die ambushes with teleport? Does the system easily fall apart at level 13? 15? 17?
#2 keithio Mar 11, 2009 21:21:25	If I had to pick the level where it all falls apart I'd say 7. Polymorph, and spellcasters in general at that level, start being scary. That has been my experience at least.
#3 lormador Mar 11, 2009 21:44:25	Have you heard of the E6 rules variant? Characters stop advancing for all purposes except feats at 6th level. I've run it quite a bit and it works well.
#4 Endarire Mar 11, 2009 22:06:36	I'm well familiar with E6, but I'm curious on CO opinions on when the game breaks or bends too far. I believe the upper limit should be at least level 10 because I love teleport, I reiterate: Is it the spells alone that 'break' a certain level? What about class features, more HP, higher saves, etc.?
#5 keithio Mar 11, 2009 22:37:53	I would say Wiz5/Incantatrix3 breaks 8th level. Class features are certainly the biggest culprits along with certain spells. Damage of all kinds scales way faster than survivability, that's the other big problem.
#6 werebat Mar 12, 2009 6:36:10	I'm well familiar with E6, but I'm curious on CO opinions on when the game breaks or bends too far. I believe the upper limit should be at least level 10 because I love teleport, I reiterate: Is it the spells alone that 'break' a certain level? What about class features, more HP, higher saves, etc.? Note that Teleport is technically available in E6 from various sources -- ancient magic items made by dragons, as well as incantations. It just isn't as easy to come by and might only take you to certain places. - Ron ^*^
#7 jameswilliamogle Mar 12, 2009 6:47:32	Note that Teleport is technically available in E6 from various sources -- ancient magic items made by dragons, as well as incantations. It just isn't as easy to come by and might only take you to certain places. - Ron ^*^ Hrm... I've got to read this E6 stuff... I like that idea. Anyone have a link?
#8 hogarth Mar 12, 2009 6:58:42	Hrm... I've got to read this E6 stuff... I like that idea. Anyone have a link? E6 rules on Enworld boards The Optimization of E6 thread
#9 pithica Mar 12, 2009 15:04:57	The game breaks at level one if your DM isn't any good at managing player ability. It never breaks if the DM is excellent at managing player ability. What usually causes the break is the overuse of a particularly poorly worded (or thought out) spell. Second to that is abuse of a poorly worded (or thought out) feat or class ability. Lastly are poorly worded items. At least, in my experience.
#10 PlzBreakMyCampaign Mar 12, 2009 22:54:20	Damage of all kinds scales way faster than survivability, that's the other big problem. +1 And its generally spellcasting progressions. With no psionics/spells/infusions/etc. above level 4 (maybe 5 or 6) there are much fewer ways to break the game. That's why I was fascinated by 10//10 instead of non-gestalt ECL20 Hey, its the same number of class levels, but clearly any gestalt 10 would lose to a full spellcasting ECL20.
#11 divisionbyzer0 Mar 13, 2009 3:20:06	I'd probably never allow wish, miracle, reality revision, limited wish, etc, and I'd probably ban shapechange as well as potentially the other polymorphing like spells. Don't know enough about higher level spells to say otherwise. Szantnays casting classesall cut off at level 7 spells in favor of more skill points and actual class abilities as well as small numbers of spells as invocations for primary casters other than druid, but I've never played with those but the notion doesn't seem like a bad one. The game breaks at level one if your DM isn't any good at managing player ability. It never breaks if the DM is excellent at managing player ability. What usually causes the break is the overuse of a particularly poorly worded (or thought out) spell. Second to that is abuse of a poorly worded (or thought out) feat or class ability. Lastly are poorly worded items. At least, in my experience. No doubt at all on this one. I played with a horrendous DM who had no idea how to cap or mitigate my bloodstorm blade / swifhunters damage output and it wasn't even a hugely opped character but it was capable of doing something like 7 thrown attacks at level 17 (even at 10 on up I never seemed to have challenge), coupled with improved skirmish and swift hunting and weapon properties I could drop most foes in a round or two (took constructs, and undead as my enemies which were faves of hers), but it wasn't that I was uber powerful as it was her lack of knowledge of the tome of battle and how the scout class ability functioned on the necessity of having room for mobility, I even took close quarters fighting cuz I knew being grappled could seriously eff my character over and in the 6 levels following taking that feat she never grappled me once with any of the monsters (she didnt even know I had this feat). I also never incurred AoOs for moving to use skirmish from levels 10-18 (which is when I quit the game cuz it was no challenge AT ALL and pure redundancy).
#12 mister_crowley Mar 13, 2009 4:34:56	The game breaks at level one if your DM isn't any good at managing player ability. It never breaks if the DM is excellent at managing player ability. What usually causes the break is the overuse of a particularly poorly worded (or thought out) spell. Second to that is abuse of a poorly worded (or thought out) feat or class ability. Lastly are poorly worded items. At least, in my experience. +1 I sometimes DM a campaign with several experienced PC's that happen to play spellcasters. While it's true that they are powerful, I think it's the DM's job to make adventures challenging for the PC's. There are plenty of ways around spellcasters abilities. For example, a simple dungeon will do. The characters have several encounters back to back, this forces spellcasters to choose which spells they cast carefully as they could need their spells later in the dungeon. I find it best to have encounters in a dungeon vary in difficulty, (i.e the first encounters not always being the easiest and the last encounter not always being the hardest). It's scenario's like this were non spellcasters (rogues, tanks, etc) shine, because as along as their healed they can do 4 to 5 encounters back to back before resting.
#13 bitznarf Mar 13, 2009 9:52:59	4-5 encounters/day is the 'standard' in D&D. That and I've found for for casters dungeon crawls are actually easier - shorter duration spells can make it through several encounters before running out, if not the whole dungeon.
#14 phaedrusxy Mar 13, 2009 11:48:41	4-5 encounters/day is the 'standard' in D&D. That and I've found for for casters dungeon crawls are actually easier - shorter duration spells can make it through several encounters before running out, if not the whole dungeon. If the entire dungeon is the size of a broom closet, maybe. If it's vast and mostly empty, and you "waste" a lot of time searching for traps in big empty tunnels, not so much...
#15 ozgun Mar 13, 2009 12:17:00	If the entire dungeon is the size of a broom closet, maybe. If it's vast and mostly empty, and you "waste" a lot of time searching for traps in big empty tunnels, not so much... But it's vast and empty, they can get to rest & regain spell slots. Also, see Rope Trick
#16 phaedrusxy Mar 13, 2009 13:13:38	But it's vast and empty, they can get to rest & regain spell slots. And as a DM, that's when you can decide to have the next "random" encounter. Even if it is mostly empty, there could be patrols, roaming monsters, etc, that would stumble over you while resting. Also, see Rope Trick ... I'm quite familiar with Rope Trick. There are simple ways to deal with that, too, like a wandering monster with the Scent ability. Invisible isn't undetectable.
#17 ozgun Mar 13, 2009 13:17:32	... I'm quite familiar with Rope Trick. There are simple ways to deal with that, too, like a wandering monster with the Scent ability. Invisible isn't undetectable. It's unpenetrable... Except Dispel Magic, which would require you to get a monster with Scent AND Dispel.
#18 maeglin_dubh Mar 13, 2009 14:06:11	Where else might one find E6 resources online?
#19 hogarth Mar 13, 2009 15:11:12	Where else might one find E6 resources online? There's a list of resources in that EnWorld thread. Now please -- stop derailing this exciting discussion of Rope Trick!! :P
#20 bloodofgods Mar 13, 2009 15:35:14	There's a list of resources in that EnWorld thread. Now please -- stop derailing this exciting discussion of Rope Trick!! :P People don't broken spells Easy solution to rope trick, rope trick doesn't exist!
#21 sofawall Mar 13, 2009 15:42:06	People don't broken spells? I afraid I haven't a clue what you mean.
#22 gixanthrax Mar 14, 2009 8:48:16	4 - 5 Encounters? mhm sounds like Heaven. We ( lvl 13 party consisting of 2 warlocks, one fighter one vampire-rogue and my druid) are currently assaulting a duergar city, having had our 8th encounter so far and beeing only halfway through the city with the hardest part still to come... Resources drain is enorm, but fortunately(?) only my char, which is the most opped one seems to suffer from the succession of encounters...
#23 liquid150 Mar 14, 2009 9:59:00	It's unpenetrable... Except Dispel Magic, which would require you to get a monster with Scent AND Dispel. or, the more likely to happen "see invisibility" and "dispel magic." or even just "detect magic" to see it. the window is invisible, not undetectable, and any evil mage can find it easily.
#24 maeglin_dubh Mar 17, 2009 14:15:44	Since the original E6 thread on Enworld is closed, does anyone here know of any good adventures to run for E6?
#25 bitznarf Mar 17, 2009 17:21:56	If the entire dungeon is the size of a broom closet, maybe. If it's vast and mostly empty, and you "waste" a lot of time searching for traps in big empty tunnels, not so much... Well, I suppose using (eternal) wands spontaneous search helps with some of that. If you've got a minute per level spell, it should last for at least 2 encounters if not 3 or more. 4 - 5 Encounters? mhm sounds like Heaven. Well, it's what the DMG says anyway. Of course it also says that an EL=APL encounter should drain about 20% of your resources. We ( lvl 13 party consisting of 2 warlocks, one fighter one vampire-rogue and my druid) are currently assaulting a duergar city, having had our 8th encounter so far and beeing only halfway through the city with the hardest part still to come... Resources drain is enorm, but fortunately(?) only my char, which is the most opped one seems to suffer from the succession of encounters... Re: resource drain - you're also playing with other PCs that don't lose any resources (other than HP and item charges) from fight to fight. In my current campaign we are currently on encounter 8 or so of the day as well, with no end in sight.
#26 aje8 Mar 17, 2009 18:12:23	There's no specific level, it's basically not fair throughout. At the early levels (1-5) Druid with Riding Dog animal companion, Feral Animal Companion Feat and Greenbound Summoning owns everything. His Animal Componion or 1 summoned Wolf are each more powerful than the fighter on their own, much less together. Then, at level 3 he gets a Fleshraker, further overpoweredness ensures. At level 7, Wizards get Polymorph and win DnD. DMM Cleric also extremely overpowered through much of the game. But what do you mean by balance anyway? Do you mean Caster-Fighter balance? Balance between unoptimized characters? Balance between character and CR appropiate encounters? Basically, none of those balance metrics in terms of character balance. All that matters for play is intra-party balance and that can be achieved realitively easily. In terms of playability, I'd say the game get's broken to the point of being un-fun at level 17. At this point, DnD is solved because any encounter can be ended by Celerity-> Timestop-> Whatever
#27 PlzBreakMyCampaign Mar 17, 2009 23:42:21	Endarire I like this thread. I'll stick my neck out and say that after reasonable balancing* (banning the polymorph would be high on the list) DnD is not broken at ECL 9. Tier difference will still happen, however. However by ECL 17 any wizard can break it (ECL 13 with an optimized Ur-Priest) due to 9th level spells, most of which are simply too powerful to allow a normal campaign to continue. *reasonable balancing assumes things like my dirty handbook fixes - aka a DM that plays by a logical RAI rather than [I love abusing candles of invocation] RAW