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| #1hodgie25Feb 22, 2011 23:39:53 | I'm making a character for a level one no LA game. Templates with LA:0 are perfectly fine. I would like some help optimizing a character for this type of game. How can I optimize it or set it up so that when we get to higher levels I can outshine some other party members easily. The only problem is, is that he takes all 6 of our CR's, adds them all together and uses that to determine what monsters he is going to throw at us. There are 6 of us currently, and I think characters level one start with a 1 challenge rating, so he is going to be throwing 6 CR monsters at us already. Now, adding templates adds CR right? So you see, other people in the party are using templates that add CR. Now we bump that 6 CR monsters up to at least a 13 or 14. I need to up myself to keep up and be able to survive in this game. 3.5 edition, any book that is 3.5 allowed. I prefer ranged fighting, spells and such, but I'm sort of inclined towards rogue for sneak attack, or even spellthief to be a jerk. I know one other person is going to be a psion, optimized as much as he can to be amazing. Please help. |
| #2Maat_MonsFeb 23, 2011 0:39:00 | Using those rules, for the time being, your best bet is to get the group to play 6 kobolds, preferably desert kobolds (Unearthed Arcana 13) and jungle kobolds (Unearthed Arcana 15). You then all take a level in either adept (Dungeon Master's Guide 107) or maybe magewright (Eberron Campaign Setting 256), which is the arcane equivalent of adept. The adepts should probably use the Eberron variant (Eberron Campaign Setting 256), which adds all the spells from a cleric domain to their spell list and only costs them a familiar. (It might also give the domain granted power; I'm not certain.) Why is this good? Kobold challenge ratings are calculated with this rule: “Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3.” Adept and magewright are NPC classes, but they give you 1st level spells at 1st level. At 1st level, each character's challenge rating is ¼, but you get as many spells per day and access to the same level of spells as a wizard. (Albeit from a worse spell list.) The 6 of you should have no problem with a CR 1.5 encounter. This approach isn't about boosting your power. It's about lowering your CR while maintaining approximately normal power. This won't work long-term, but it should keep you from getting slaughtered for a few levels. Bear in mind, you must have group cooperation to keep your collective CR low. This won't work if it's just you doing it. |
| #3hodgie25Feb 23, 2011 1:11:04 | The problem with that is people have already made their characters and they won't want to make kobolds. They don't want to work together, they want to be able to take on the challenges the DM is throwing at us. I don't think that strategy will work, sorry. |
| #4Maat_MonsFeb 23, 2011 2:19:42 | Next time you talk to your DM, you really should open up your Dungeon Master's Guide to page 49 and show him how challenge ratings combine. For example, 6 CR 15 creatures is an equal challenge to 1 CR 20 creature according to the table. Bear in mind “equall challenge” means the 6 CR 15 creatures have a 50% chance of being killed to the last man in that single encounter. Your DM is proposing a system where those creatures are expected to fight 1 CR 90 creature, which is ridiculous. These are the only +0 LA templates I know of:
None of these templates increases CR. In fact, I'm pretty sure there isn't a single template that increases CR more than it increases LA. If the other players are using templates more powerful than this, they're probably treating LA – templates as LA +0 templates, which we've established is a gross violation of the rules. Also, if they're doing that, they're screwing themselves and you. Your DM's way of determining what you face is worse for you the higher your group CR is, even factoring in the increased power you get with that higher CR, especially if the CR comes from templates. |
| #5hodgie25Feb 23, 2011 2:34:05 | Well I'm not exactly sure how it works, he figured out some system though where things are more powerful then us but we can beat them if we use all of our abilities. Also about the LA:-- stuff, I'll have to talk to them about it because maybe they don't understand it. So anything I could do with templates so I can be amazing and destroy things? |
| #6Maat_MonsFeb 23, 2011 3:47:26 | The +0 LA templates let you gain some nice ability score bonuses at the cost penalties to less important ability scores. For a melee character, you can apply arctic, dragonborn of Bahamut, and wild to a water orc (Unearthe Arcana 18). That gives you +6 str, +6 con, -2 dex, -4 int, -2 wis, and -6 cha for +0 LA. A level of barbarian with the extra rage feat (Complete Warrior 98) so you can rage 3 times per day, the whirling frenzy variant (Unearthed Arcana 66) so you can attack twice with a greatsword as a full attack while raging, and the lion totem alternate class feature (Complete Champion 46) so you can make a full attack at the end of a charge is pretty great for a 1st level character. For sorcerer, you can apply dragonborn of Bahamut and magic blooded to a hellbred (Fiendish Codex II 78), spellscale (Races of the Dragon 21), or star elf (Unapproachable East 10). That gives you +4 cha, -2 dex, and -2 wis for +0 LA. For a wizard, you can apply arctic and dragonborn of Bahamut to a gray elf (Monster Manual 104). That gives you +2 con, +2 int, -2 str, and -2 cha for +0 LA. Alternately, you could use a fire elf (Unearthed Arcana 17) or silvanesti (Dragonlance Campaign Setting 20) for +2 con, +2 int, and -4 cha for +0 LA. For the casters, dragonwrought kobold or lesser planetouched could be even better. |
| #7hodgie25Feb 23, 2011 3:50:40 | I was thinking of doing a conjuration wizard. |
| #8darth_versityFeb 23, 2011 5:50:15 | A decent lvl 1 build is to play a Spellscale Sorcerer with the magic blooded template (+4 CHA, - 2 CON,WIS) take Precocious Apprentice and Fiery Burst (need a flaw to get), that allows you to drop a 2d6 flame strike in a 2x2 area at will. Your high CHA will make it hard to save against and as you level up that high CHA will make you a force not to be ignored. |
| #9hodgie25Feb 23, 2011 14:44:56 | Okay, that sounds good. I'll go with the spellscale sorcerer. I rolled up the stats and they are really good I am told, (Rolled them in front of my fellow party members and the DM, so no fudging) Here they are: 18, 18, 17, 15, 16, 17. One of the 18's is going to CHA so I have a 22. Where should the other ones go? |
| #10darth_versityFeb 23, 2011 15:06:59 | Well CON is a must for HP and DEX helps your AC. INT is probably next for skills and the WIS for will saves. STR is your dump stat, but with those rolls you dont really have a bad way to go. Try this after racial adjustments STR 15 DEX 17 CON 16 INT 16 WIS 15 CHA 22 |
| #11hodgie25Feb 23, 2011 15:17:02 | Looks good, I like it a lot. Now, if I am correct I get four 0 level spells and two 1st level spells from the sorcerer spell list, right? |
| #12darth_versityFeb 23, 2011 15:35:07 | Yeah, thats your spells known, plus you get a single second level spell from taking Precocious Apprentice, but it must be a fire based spell (such as flaming sphere) to power Fiery Burst. |
| #13hodgie25Feb 23, 2011 15:43:49 | Okay, that is an amazing combination. Is it any 2nd level spell or just ones that sorcerers can use? Fiery burst would also help with say, burning hands I get a +1 to my caster level when using it. |
| #14darth_versityFeb 23, 2011 17:04:39 | It has to be of the Sorcer/Wizard spell list. |
| #15hodgie25Feb 23, 2011 17:08:07 | That's alright. I'll build it all up later tonight then/ |
| #16hodgie25Feb 24, 2011 18:27:36 | Okay, I have chosen. My 0 level spells will be Resistance, because why not? Message because I might need to talk to someone, Daze, and Mage hand. For 1st level spells I choose burning hands and Summon monster 1. And for my one 2nd level spell I choose scorching ray. Now obviously my feats are the two mentioned, Precocious Apprentice and fiery burst. Now I need equipment. Level one sorcerer starts out with like no money. Crap. |
| #17Tempest_StormwindFeb 24, 2011 19:59:19 | Okay, I have chosen. My 0 level spells will be Resistance, because why not? Message because I might need to talk to someone, Daze, and Mage hand. For 1st level spells I choose burning hands and Summon monster 1. And for my one 2nd level spell I choose scorching ray. Now obviously my feats are the two mentioned, Precocious Apprentice and fiery burst. Now I need equipment. Level one sorcerer starts out with like no money. Crap. Summon Monster 1 at level 1 takes 1 round to cast and lasts 1 round. You don't gain anything from it at the lowest levels. (I say this as a huge fan of summoner-types.) I'd suggest Color Spray over Burning Hands (1d4 damage (even 2d4 with the CL boost from Firey Burst) is NOT as good as what Color Spray can provide at this level), although Burning Hands is a fire spell and will continue to power Firey Burst if you decide to cast Scorching Ray (which probably isn't your best option; I'd recommend never casting it unless you know you're fighting "the boss"). If you have a high key ability score, Color Spray is basically the I Win spell at level 1, especially if you have a rogue in the team. Note that unconscious targets can be killed instantly by anyone with a coup de grace. Other interesting 1st level spells to consider instead of Summon Monster, especially since you've got Firey Burst to provide your offense and can thus consider utility spells: -Hold Portal. Yes, Hold Portal. It's basically like closing a deadbolt on anything. If you're fighting indoors, it can be amazing if used judiciously. It is, however, situational. -Grease. Ever popular, this can basically hose anything that dumps Dex. -Unseen Servant. The power this has is directly proportional to your equipment at this level. It can't attack, but it can take actions, which include things like dropping items, emptying oil flasks, or spreading caltrops. Note that directing a spell takes a move action, while the unseen servant has a full set of actions itself (so you trade your move action for a move, swift, and standard action, subject to Unseen Servant's action limits. This lets you, for instance, empty a flask of oil over an area *and* hit the area with a fire spell in the same round.). - Sleep or Hypnotism. Sleep is more powerful but has some overlap with Color Spray. Hypnotism can basically lock down a larger group of creatures. (Good requests include "Lie down" (Prone gives your party's melee attackers a whopping +4 to hit them, and it costs them an action that provokes an attack of opportunity to stand up again), "Close your eyes" (treats them as blind, meaning your rogue can sneak attack them), and "Hold on to this for a second" (pass them something that you've prepared in advance, such as a flask of oil with a fuse).) -Ventriloquism. I'm not sure how immediately useful this is for you, but typical examples of its use involve moving your verbal components 20' underground, to basically get Silent Spell for free. With points in Bluff (a sorcerer class skill, by the way), this can easily be used to aid in convincing targets that you, yourself, are an illusion. -Silent Image. The combat effectiveness of this is directly proportional to your environment. Note that what appears to be a floor can instead be a cliff, and that your team can stand next to the wall of a room and you cast an illusion of that wall in front of you, giving the rest of your party the drop on enemies. As for 0-level spells, I'd suggest replacing Resistance with Prestidigitation. (That link does NOT take you to the SRD, but rather to an excerpt that'll tell you what you can do with it. It's really far more useful than you'd think; I usually splurge to get that power on every character I create. It's slightly less useful in combat (unless you're using the "dampen" option judiciously; this can help protect you and your friends from your fire effects), but amazingly useful in between battles.) For equipment, you don't need much. You've got Firey Burst to deliver damage at range, so you may not even need a crossbow. I'd suggest getting a dagger (you're never attacking in melee; this is only so you can threaten an area and flank with your rogue if you need to) and spending the rest of your resources on either leather armor (yes, leather armor; the 5% spell failure chance doesn't apply to your Firey Burst, and it doesn't have a real check penalty worth noting) or tools. (Do remember to buy a spell component pouch; if you'd like a light source, I'd consider Complete Scoundrel's Liquid Sunlight. 18gp, but it's essentially an everburning torch so long as you don't use it.) Example tools that are killer for low-level characters include Caltrops (compare *that* to Burning Hands and you'll see what I mean!), marbles (a non-damaging equivalent to caltrops and a non-magical alternative to Grease), alchemical supplies (they're expensive unless you can make them with your Craft (Alchemy) skill, but they're impressively strong at low levels and your Unseen Servant can help make them potent), and oil (break the flask over something before hitting it with a fire spell; stands a pretty good chance of setting the creature on fire, which means an extra 1d6 damage per round unless they make a saving throw). You can also consider a net as a weapon - it's exotic, so you'll take a -4, but it's a touch attack, which is a lower AC. If it hits, it entangles the target, restricting their movement and giving them a penalty on attack rolls and Dexterity (which in turn lowers its Reflex save against your Firey Blast; although the net is likely going to take damage too, you can use Prestidigitation to Dampen it first). If you want something a bit more novel, buy a lot of rope and use it to make a lasso (take 20 on Use Rope and the result should be high enough for any GM to say you've tied a proper slipknot). Lassos were "officially" statted up in the Book of Exalted Deeds; they're basically nets that don't have a size limit. The big advantage here is that even if the Firey Blast burns your rope, you've got a lot of rope and can make another lasso between battles. Does that help? |
| #18hodgie25Feb 24, 2011 20:16:43 | That helps a whole lot. I didn't know that summon monster 1 only lasted one round, and I was going to take burning hands because of the help on fiery burst but if it isn't worth it I'll take color spray and hypnotism. And that resistance can be replaced with Prestidigitation. And you're suggesting for spells I just use fiery burst on everything? Or use it in conjunction with my other spells? Because I can use fiery burst on anything anytime it's my turn as many times as I want and it does 2d6 if I am reading the previous posts correctly. That's pretty good. I was also thinking if he gave me enough money at first level (Usually he gives us all a fixed amount, like when we were 9th level we got 36,000 gold) to get what I really wanted which was endless bag of jumping caltrops (Me and a friend made it up, 3 handfuls of jumping caltrops per day that after 2 rounds become regular caltrops and at the dawn of the next day become jumping ones until I use them again, if I pick them up of course.) So even at later levels when I don't need to rely on them so much, I can just sell them, because I have an unlimited amount of them. I'll choose some other things once I get the conformation on starting gold. |