Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kupokupkupo Jan 02, 2009 23:33:59	I'm making a 15 level character, and decided to go with a lich cleric. Yes, I realize it may not be the most optimized build already, but I'm trying to have fun here. Now, I'm familiar with the rules and all 3 core books, and have access to some most supplements. So, what I want to know, is any good rulebooks, feats, spells, prestige classes, etc. that I could use? And any considerations/possible problems? Keep in mind that I can't have any more EL and that any prestige classes need to give me full caster level growth, so I can qualify for lich. Thanks!
#2 NiteCyper Jan 02, 2009 23:40:32	Walker in the Waste(Mr. Icy Hot Revised) - (by McJarvis)
#3 kupokupkupo Jan 02, 2009 23:59:27	Wow, thanks, that was a quick reply. I'll look into this- it seems interesting, even if it's not exactly what I was looking for.
#4 tos_shai_hulud Jan 03, 2009 2:43:59	I would recommend checking out The Necromancer's Handbook. Skip everything relating to wizards and dread necromancers, as you won't care about them. I'm assuming that by a lich cleric, you are planning on playing evil. Depending on what type of army you are looking for, you may want different abilities, but for commanding an army, the following would likely be best: My favorite domains Air Domain: Rebuke/command air creatures as you do undead, turn/destroy earth creatures Death Domain: Death touch once/day may slay target with low hp Deathbound Domain: increases the number of undead you create with each casting of Animate Dead Earth Domain: Rebuke/command earth creatures as you do undead, turn/destry air creatures Evil Domain: increases your caster level for all spells with the evil descriptor by 1 Fire Domain: Rebuke/command fire creatures, turn/destroy water creatures Magic Domain: Items treat you as a wizard of half your level Plant Domain: Rebuke/command plant creatures Spell Domain: grants you access to 5th level or lower arcane spells prepared in 6th level cleric spell slots, +2 on Concentration and Spellcraft Summoner Domain: +2 caster level to conjuration (summoning) and conjuration (calling) Undead Domain: Gain Extra Turning as a bonus feat Water Domain: Rebuke/command water creatures, turn/destroy fire creatures Note: I am a big fan of the domains that grant additional forms of rebuking. Each additional one grants you additional minions! What's more, these minions may be intelligent, even possessing class levels! Since there is no turn resistance for creatures that are not undead, you can get a lot of mileage out of this. If you focus on your rebuking ability, you can have six or more minions who are nearly as powerful as you are, all loyally bound to you eternally.
#5 kupokupkupo Jan 03, 2009 2:51:43	Huh, right. See, that's the sort of help I needed, tos_shai_hulud. I don't want to deal with an army, yet, so I'll save that for later. Lover of Power (2nd edition) sounds interesting. However, I think I'll make all three (Walker in the Waste, Minion Master (With elementals! I completely forgot about those!) and Lover of Power. Good thing I like making characters. FYI, I've only done melee up to this point, because everyone I play with likes to play ANYTHING but a tank. And I don't mind tanks, but it's good to branch out.
#6 tos_shai_hulud Jan 03, 2009 5:02:12	Well, as a lover of power, I recommend the Cloistered Cleric variant. This nets you the knowledge domain. Any domain which grants you a metamagic feat is likely good, as the search for power is likely going to involve lots of metamagic. The Planning Domain grants Extend Spell, if you can swing it. If you have Complete Champion, you might be interested in one or more of the organizations. You can be a cleric of the Ruby Temple (Wee Jas) or of the Eternal Library (Boccob). Both of these affiliations can grant you very nice bonuses, but cost you some of your starting wealth. Since the abilities are all graded, you can pay for as many as you like and work into your back story the ways in which you met the requirements. Additionally, the Paragnostic Assembly offers some nice abilities. It even accepts worshippers of different faiths, so you don't have to worship according to their principles. The drawbacks of worship are that you might be called upon to perform services for these organizations. But, that is likely going to be a boon, as these services would likely send you on adventures where you are going to come into contact with more items of power to control! I'm assuming that you are not being charged for the creation of your phylactery (as that would put you drastically out of sync with the rest of the party). If you were being charged for its creation, I would recommend not starting as a lich. Instead, ask your DM if you can start as a 14th level cleric who had just finished his phylactery (The phylactery costs 4,800 XP and 120,000gp). If you are being charged (dropping your character wealth well below what it should be), then you will not only be behind in relative power (from the four levels lost in cleric), but also in items, which would just make your character nearly unplayable. If you weren't a lich yet, but you had your phylactery all created, then as soon as the game begins, you can complete the ritual, which would immediately grant you a +4 level adjustment. Your XP progression would be slowed until the rest of the party caught up, but it wouldn't hurt as much since you actually bought your phylactery and are starting with far less wealth. Anyway, back on track. Let's talk prestige classes. If you are going for flavor, the Paragnostic Apostle is a 5-level prestige class that could be very beneficial. It advances your domain abilities, your undead turning/rebuking, as well as improving your lore ability from Cloistered Cleric (actually the prestige class levels count double for lore!!!) Additionally, this lets you specify what type of cleric you will be. With a low base attack bonus, I recommend summoner (taking the Summoning Domain as your third domain). The ability Call of Worlds is excellent, granting your summoned creatures fast healing 5!!! Additionally, Mind over Body is useful for buffs and debuffs, increasing your caster level by 1 for any transmutation spells that grant bonuses or penalties. See through the Veil increases your turning ability (by the way it is worded, it actually increases turning ability for all turning you possess, even if you possess turning from multiple sources). Spacial Awareness is pretty awesome, too. All of these abilities require some ranks in different knowledge skills. But, that shouldn't be a problem since cloistered clerics get more skill points than they know what to do with! (Skill points is the only thing that decreases in this prestige class, although only by 2 per level). After completing that prestige class, Contemplative is amazing for your character. So, a good build might look like this: Human Cloistered Cleric Lich 5 / Paragnostic Apostle 5 / Contemplative 1 Domains: Knowledge, Planning, Summoning, and Oracle Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration)1, Augment Summoning1, Extend Spell1, Craft Wondrous Item3, Persistent Spell6, Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell9 As someone looking for lots of power, this is a powerful build. Max out Use Magic Device and do whatever you can to increase your charisma. Give yourself lots of Nightsticks, and you will be running around with a ton of persistent buffs. My favorites: Life WardSpC (4th level) Visage of the DeitySpC (6th level) Vigorous CircleSpC (6th level) Righteous MightSRD (5th level) Divine PowerSRD (4th level) Divine AgilitySpC (5th level) - requires you to polymorph into a living creature, then cast and make persistent Now, I am not sure if all of those spells are valid targets. Persistent Spell is not a terribly straightforward feat. It says that spells with fixed ranges are able to be made persistent. I figure, if the spell is personal, touch, or has a fixed number for its range, it is valid. I'm sure there are better posts out there.
#7 tos_shai_hulud Jan 03, 2009 6:26:11	For the minion master, you are going to want to maximize your turning capability. You are already at a disadvantage since you are starting 4 levels below everyone, so eking out power will come through items: Cloistered Cleric 5/Paragnostic Apostle 5/Contemplative 1 Domains: Knowledge, Three Elemental Domains Feats: Improved Turning, Craft Wondrous Item, Quicken Turning, Elemental Healing, Profane Boost Items: Scepter of the NetherworldLM (unlike the Phylactery of Undead Turning, the bonus is to all turning or rebuking power, not just turning and rebuking undead), Phylactery of Undead TurningSRD (only affects turning undead), Sacred ArmorBoED, Sacred ShieldBoED With those feats and those items, you are treated as a 20th level cleric for turning elementals and a 24nd level cleric for undead. (When I say turning, I mean turning/rebuking). This allows you to command 10 HD elemental-based creatures and 12 HD undead. I would recommend taking the Fire domain as one of your three elemental domains. Now, at your earliest convenience, summon an efreeti! A 10 HD efreeti is your new best friend! When you spring this on your DM, he might be a little upset, because you just got yourself a wish factory. You can make three wishes per day! Since you command the efreeti, there isn't much he can do about it! Bonuses to turn level are calculated as follows: 5 levels cleric: +5 5 levels of Paragnostic Apostle: +5 See through the Veil (Paragnostic Apostle class ability): +2 Scepter of the Netherworld: +3 Sacred Armor: +2 Sacred Shield: +2 Improved Turning: +1 Total: 20 Phylactery of Undead Turning (only applies to cleric level when turning undead): +4 Total: 24
#8 vglcat Jan 03, 2009 11:25:26	i don't know about other's but i like the time domain and the animal domain. (haste time stop shape change woot!!) also travel. also you won't be playing a tank. you'll be controlling 20 HD of elementals and 24 HD of undead from what i've seen. so don't think of it as "not playing a tank" think of it as "contolling LOTS of tanks and a caster.
#9 emy Jan 03, 2009 11:38:17	Walker in the Waste(Mr. Icy Hot Revised) - (by McJarvis) This. A thousand times this. Not even that specific build. Just Walker in the Waste in general. You're making a level 15 character. That means you can start off as a Cleric 5/Walker in the Waste 10. You lose two levels of spellcasting over the course of WitW, but it's much cheaper than getting +4 Level Adjustment from Lich; Dry Lich is also a superior template. If you do end up using Walker in the Waste to gain lichdom, take a look at the Dynamic Priest feat from Dragonlance: Legends of the Twins. If your HP is going to matter, making your primary casting ability score and your HP bonus ability score be the same could give you a rather big HP bonus. (It's much the same as being a Wizard with Faerie Mysteries Initiate, except with less erotic dancing.) edit: If you can spare enough feats, your 16th level should definitely be Spelldancer.
#10 trednis Jan 03, 2009 12:08:51	even though you would not get dread secret until epic, you might want to look at the Archivist (Heroes of Horror). I'm sure there are a few useful divine spells for a lich that are not clerical.
#11 kupokupkupo Jan 05, 2009 18:15:19	Well, things have been helpful. One thing I was thinking: I can enter Walker after 3 levels of cleric, using the right things. That means, after gaining dry lich, I still have 2 levels. Since taking those levels in cleric would be non optimal, what are good PrCs? I was thinking, Contemplative?
#12 ronyon Jan 05, 2009 21:51:51	Paragnostic Apostle 5/Contemplative 1 I second both these. I'm playing a spontaneous casting cleric variant/cloistered cleric, with Spell and Shadow Domains.I took all 5 levels of P.Apostle, and I love it.Due to the mechanics of the PC, my Lore check is through the roof! Also, make sure you look into the Substitute Domain spell.At only second level, it lasts one day per level, and allows you to switch out your known Domains for any that your god offers. Think about this. You can use up a Domain power for the day, and then switch it out for something else! Or you can choose Trickery for the skills, but shift to something else for most of each level. The trick that I recommend for Necro Clerics involves a few steps: 1. Get access to the Wujen spell Spirit Binding.I talked my DM into letting me take it as a Divine Magician choice, but Greater Anyspell works as well. 2.Become undead, or take Tomb Tainted Soul. 2.Call a Ghostly Visage. This is low hd undead from the Feind Folio.It is a Symbiot, and as such it can Share Spells with you(more on that latter). Rebuke that little fellow.Force him to merge with you.Repeat until your control pool is full. 4. Now cast Dragons Breath. Its a Personal target spell, so your Ghostly Visage Symbiots will also be affected,via the Shared Spell ability.Thus you can have a breath weapon multiplied by however many Visages you have under your thumb.Spread them out over multiple turns or burn them all at once. Plenty of profit, already, but there is one more trick. 1.Acquire access to Incorporeal Enhancement 2. Prep Shroud of Undeath, if you are not undead. 3.Acquire access to Permeable Form. 4.Cast Shroud of Undeath if you need to, cast Permeable Form and then cast Incorporeal Enhancement. 4. Enjoy an awesome 24 hour buff for you and your Minions. Now I hardly came up with this stuff(Look Here http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=563976), well maybe the Incorporeal Enhancement trick, but I do like to think I make it easy.The only thing you would need to do to add this firepower to your arsenal is a couple of spells. These undead are great since they are smart, easy to control, and almost immune to turning( full protected when merged with you) and easy to acquire. They can also be used as scouts, using Chain of Eyes, but I would actually Call some Ghost Brute (Libris Mortis) Animals for this task, since they are faster, and they also can bite you for negative energy damage.I keep a brace of Ghost Brute snakes for this. They are also not merely Incorporeal, but actually Ethereal, and thus quite hard to spot. Ok, I hope my post wasnt just crap. Good luck!
#13 kupokupkupo Jan 06, 2009 1:34:07	I second both these. Well, the choice seems to be: use that build, or Mr. Icy Hot. The great thing about Icy Hot, is no need for LA, so I get 15HD. Sure, I miss out on 2 caster levels, but that's better than LA. However, the minion/symbiont trick would work with Mr. Icy Hot, wouldn't it?
#14 ronyon Jan 06, 2009 19:04:32	Well Icy Hot is basically a cleric, and undead so yeah, he could do it just fine. I notice that build has Mother Cyst, which opens up the kinds of Symbiots that can be easily controlled.If you can get access to Planar or Spirit Binding, you can kidnap your way into having a pet Arcane Caster, and if they are sufficient caster level, you can use them to acquire more Casters, or some Symbiots. Actually, I am not sure why you even need Leadership in that build when you have Mother Cyst. Yep, the Symbiont thing is flexible, it can be welded onto all kinds of builds.
#15 tos_shai_hulud Jan 07, 2009 3:59:56	Well, things have been helpful. One thing I was thinking: I can enter Walker after 3 levels of cleric, using the right things. That means, after gaining dry lich, I still have 2 levels. Since taking those levels in cleric would be non optimal, what are good PrCs? I was thinking, Contemplative? The biggest problem you are going to have is with water. Dry liches can be harmed by water. Ordinary water. And most worlds are made up primarily of the stuff. A 0th level cleric spell can do damage to you.
#16 phaedrusxy Jan 07, 2009 11:56:34	The biggest problem you are going to have is with water. Dry liches can be harmed by water. Ordinary water. And most worlds are made up primarily of the stuff. A 0th level cleric spell can do damage to you. So what? I see this brought up all the time, and I still don't see why it is a big deal. It's not like it incapacitates him with no save. It just does damage. Lots of crap can do damage. And isn't there an item that is basically like a suit that keeps moisture inside it in the Sandstorm book, just like the ones used in Dune? Couldn't that work both ways?
#17 jameswilliamogle Jan 07, 2009 13:44:37	Yeah, water isn't that big of a deal unless the DM has it in for you (in which case you're doomed already). Don't play the Dry Lich in the Savage Tides arc, though. It doesn't have an issue in Age of Worms (actually, optimized Clerics ROCK in that game). I never played Shackled City, though, so can't comment on that campaign.