Lightning Mace + Multiple Arms - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Lightning Mace + Multiple Arms

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ObsidianConspiracy
Aug 27, 2010 16:47:17 Right I am currently looking a planescape game down the face in the next month or so, over the internet I might add.

So I am looking at playing an Insectile Human... I love humans.

Basically my aim is to wield multiple weapons and abuse the lightning mace feat with aptitude weapons.

As such I am aiming to do this using fighter, disciple of dispater and a level of spirit lion barb.

My question is, with Lightning mace can you use the feat if you have multiple weapons? Ie if I was to wield 6/8 kukri could I still use the lightning mace feat, as mosst feats seem somewhat transparent through to monster feats.

Even more so, could I use it by using aptitude weapon pairing up Elven courtblades? Or would multiweapon fighting be a far more dangeorusly efficient means of destruction?
#2
Maat_Mons
Aug 27, 2010 18:43:25
The insectile creature template specifically says “Despite having six arms, insectile creatures gain no additional attacks.” That seems to preclude multi-weapon fighting.
#3
ObsidianConspiracy
Aug 27, 2010 19:21:17 Hmmm you're right, however, simple matter of dropping a fighter level and playing a Thri-Kreen. So it still doesn't answer the question

EDIT:

However, isn't there something about adding extra damage multipliers for adding extra hands... if so then maybe replace lightning mace with elven courtblade and still do ludicrous things
#4
cycada
Aug 27, 2010 23:23:14 There is an optional rule in Savage Species that mentions adding, I believe, 0.5x for every hand above 2, but that is ludicrously overpowered......so, ymv

~Cy
#5
Balthanon
Aug 28, 2010 7:24:17 It adds more to your Str modifier-- i.e. 3 hands gives you 2x Str, 4 2.5x Str, etc... if you have Tome of Battle available you're going to get more out of Bloodclaw Master in my opionion. That will give you full Str damage on every attack, which means you get 4x Str with four weapons if all hit.

There are only two classes I know of that actually increase your critical multiplier and they do so with specific groups of weapons-- bows and crossbows for Deepwood Sniper and battleaxe, warhammer, and greatclub for Hida Defender.

Personally, I don't think the aptitude weapons plus Lightning Mace trick works, but if you've already run it past your DM go for it. If you haven't, I would suggest doing that before planning a character around the trick.
#6
ObsidianConspiracy
Aug 28, 2010 13:32:35 Really why don't you think it works?

DM is fine with it, we already have someone else using the Warblade ability with it in one game.
#7
Balthanon
Aug 28, 2010 14:44:18 Because Lightning Mace isn't a "selectable" feat. It works explicitly with light maces, which isn't what the aptitude enhancement was designed to modify. Aptitude mimics weapon aptitude and works with feats that allow you to select a single weapon-- i.e. feats like Weapon Focus, Specialization, etc... If the feat doesn't give you a choice, aptitude doesn't impact it.

It's been argued to death on the boards, but Lightning Mace is a key example of where it breaks if you try to expand its use. Going from a 20 critical to an 18-20 critical is a sizeable change in how the feat is balanced when you add in keen or improved critical.
#8
ObsidianConspiracy
Aug 28, 2010 17:59:19 I'd say that the way the feat is written you can argue both points. But even so, isn't the whole point of the optimization boards to exploit these loopholes/flaws in the rule systems?

And yeah, lightning mace + aptitude weapon is broken... I did a random tester for it, and on average the build I was looking at... or similar, using thri-kreen totemist + extras pulls over 40 attacks a round.

Throwing in things like Disciple of dispater and weapon masters ect. really bends/breaks it.

I can see both sides of this arguement I must admit, either way it's being allowed... so maybe see if I can get the variant rule that lets me multi-hand two 2H weapons, using Oversized 2 weapon fighitng, and using elven courtblades... made form that chitenous stuff... can't think what it's calle,d but I saw the material... and it gives X4 crit, without changing the threat range
#9
Balthanon
Aug 28, 2010 21:55:09 The optimization boards are about creating good characters within the rules-- bending them to the breaking point or just passing right by the breaking point isn't the point in my opinion. Again, depends on the individual though. If everyone in the party is going full tilt at that level you should be fine, but even normal optimization can throw off party balance at times so it's something to watch.

I believe you're thinking of kaorti resin as well. It's a specific item though, not a special material.
#10
ObsidianConspiracy
Aug 28, 2010 22:52:34 It's a specific item? That's not what i was reading.

And as I said, it's going to be a planescape game, I'll be the only non-caster in the party, so definately need to go full tilt for this one. Different playgroup, i'm trying to optimize, they're all out and out power gamers

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ObsidianConspiracy Aug 27, 2010 16:47:17	Right I am currently looking a planescape game down the face in the next month or so, over the internet I might add. So I am looking at playing an Insectile Human... I love humans. Basically my aim is to wield multiple weapons and abuse the lightning mace feat with aptitude weapons. As such I am aiming to do this using fighter, disciple of dispater and a level of spirit lion barb. My question is, with Lightning mace can you use the feat if you have multiple weapons? Ie if I was to wield 6/8 kukri could I still use the lightning mace feat, as mosst feats seem somewhat transparent through to monster feats. Even more so, could I use it by using aptitude weapon pairing up Elven courtblades? Or would multiweapon fighting be a far more dangeorusly efficient means of destruction?
#2 Maat_Mons Aug 27, 2010 18:43:25	The insectile creature template specifically says “Despite having six arms, insectile creatures gain no additional attacks.” That seems to preclude multi-weapon fighting.
#3 ObsidianConspiracy Aug 27, 2010 19:21:17	Hmmm you're right, however, simple matter of dropping a fighter level and playing a Thri-Kreen. So it still doesn't answer the question EDIT: However, isn't there something about adding extra damage multipliers for adding extra hands... if so then maybe replace lightning mace with elven courtblade and still do ludicrous things
#4 cycada Aug 27, 2010 23:23:14	There is an optional rule in Savage Species that mentions adding, I believe, 0.5x for every hand above 2, but that is ludicrously overpowered......so, ymv ~Cy
#5 Balthanon Aug 28, 2010 7:24:17	It adds more to your Str modifier-- i.e. 3 hands gives you 2x Str, 4 2.5x Str, etc... if you have Tome of Battle available you're going to get more out of Bloodclaw Master in my opionion. That will give you full Str damage on every attack, which means you get 4x Str with four weapons if all hit. There are only two classes I know of that actually increase your critical multiplier and they do so with specific groups of weapons-- bows and crossbows for Deepwood Sniper and battleaxe, warhammer, and greatclub for Hida Defender. Personally, I don't think the aptitude weapons plus Lightning Mace trick works, but if you've already run it past your DM go for it. If you haven't, I would suggest doing that before planning a character around the trick.
#6 ObsidianConspiracy Aug 28, 2010 13:32:35	Really why don't you think it works? DM is fine with it, we already have someone else using the Warblade ability with it in one game.
#7 Balthanon Aug 28, 2010 14:44:18	Because Lightning Mace isn't a "selectable" feat. It works explicitly with light maces, which isn't what the aptitude enhancement was designed to modify. Aptitude mimics weapon aptitude and works with feats that allow you to select a single weapon-- i.e. feats like Weapon Focus, Specialization, etc... If the feat doesn't give you a choice, aptitude doesn't impact it. It's been argued to death on the boards, but Lightning Mace is a key example of where it breaks if you try to expand its use. Going from a 20 critical to an 18-20 critical is a sizeable change in how the feat is balanced when you add in keen or improved critical.
#8 ObsidianConspiracy Aug 28, 2010 17:59:19	I'd say that the way the feat is written you can argue both points. But even so, isn't the whole point of the optimization boards to exploit these loopholes/flaws in the rule systems? And yeah, lightning mace + aptitude weapon is broken... I did a random tester for it, and on average the build I was looking at... or similar, using thri-kreen totemist + extras pulls over 40 attacks a round. Throwing in things like Disciple of dispater and weapon masters ect. really bends/breaks it. I can see both sides of this arguement I must admit, either way it's being allowed... so maybe see if I can get the variant rule that lets me multi-hand two 2H weapons, using Oversized 2 weapon fighitng, and using elven courtblades... made form that chitenous stuff... can't think what it's calle,d but I saw the material... and it gives X4 crit, without changing the threat range
#9 Balthanon Aug 28, 2010 21:55:09	The optimization boards are about creating good characters within the rules-- bending them to the breaking point or just passing right by the breaking point isn't the point in my opinion. Again, depends on the individual though. If everyone in the party is going full tilt at that level you should be fine, but even normal optimization can throw off party balance at times so it's something to watch. I believe you're thinking of kaorti resin as well. It's a specific item though, not a special material.
#10 ObsidianConspiracy Aug 28, 2010 22:52:34	It's a specific item? That's not what i was reading. And as I said, it's going to be a planescape game, I'll be the only non-caster in the party, so definately need to go full tilt for this one. Different playgroup, i'm trying to optimize, they're all out and out power gamers