I have access to the SRD, PHB, XPH, and OA, though I don't have the dragon magazine that updated it to 3.5. The DM's rules are no eberron races/classes, 27 point buy, magic is rare but powerful, PCs probably won't have magic items to start. Characters are 6-8th level, by his judgement, I think it will have to do with how much magic they have access to. From what I can tell, it will be the PCs vs. cultists and unimaginable horrors from beyond the veil of reality(tm), with homebrewed monsters. Only angels and demons can be good or evil, I am not sure whether that means paladins don't exist or if they are lawful neutral but have to act good.
I am liking the soulbow because it is a class that enhances its own weapons, I had made a fighter archer, but I didn't like his complete lack of magic, the DM won't screw us over by making a monster that is completely invulnerable to the party unless he drops major hints that we should be running, but I would still prefer to have some amount of magic.
Right now, I am just hoping for someone to give me suggestions on making a good soulbow, within the limits I am given (I know, it seems really strict considering most builds I see use at least a half dozen books I don't have). I will post up the build afterwards for critique.
classes suggested
Typical
Ranger 6 / Soulknife 4 / Soulbow 10
-or-
Ranger 11 / Soulknife 2 / Soulbow 7
Either way you have nice skills, solid BAB, and access to some nice ranger perks. In the second build you will have more ranger perks like spells & whatnot and you might want to use the soulbow as a backup weapon. In the first it’s a solid +4 weapon with +3 in enhancement.
Ye old standard
Soulknife 5 / Soulbow 8 / Warmind 7
16 BAB with a mix of ranged & melee options. Limited psychic powers for moblity & endurance. This build is a variation of the popular Soulknife / Kensai / Warmind.
Then it occurred to me ... what about the Kensai? If you go Soulknife 5 / Kensai 5 / Soulbow 10 or some such you can have a +5 Mind Blade ... then you can potentially add your Soulbow enhancement on top of that.
Typical
Ranger 6 / Soulknife 4 / Soulbow 10
-or-
Ranger 11 / Soulknife 2 / Soulbow 7
Either way you have nice skills, solid BAB, and access to some nice ranger perks. In the second build you will have more ranger perks like spells & whatnot and you might want to use the soulbow as a backup weapon. In the first it’s a solid +4 weapon with +3 in enhancement.
Ye old standard
Soulknife 5 / Soulbow 8 / Warmind 7
16 BAB with a mix of ranged & melee options. Limited psychic powers for moblity & endurance. This build is a variation of the popular Soulknife / Kensai / Warmind.
Then it occurred to me ... what about the Kensai? If you go Soulknife 5 / Kensai 5 / Soulbow 10 or some such you can have a +5 Mind Blade ... then you can potentially add your Soulbow enhancement on top of that.
You mean the thread that started when the excerpt first came out? I read through that, saw a few builds I might be interested in pursuing, but I am not sure how to make them not take the experience penalty. Is that not something that people normally worry about, or am I just not looking at it right? I will edit in some of them, they don't show the level progression, least I don't think they do.classes suggested
Ranger 6 / Soulknife 4 / Soulbow 10
-or-
Ranger 11 / Soulknife 2 / Soulbow 7
-or-
Soulknife 5 / Soulbow 8 / Warmind 7
-or-
Soulknife 5 / Kensai 5 / Soulbow 10
LogicNinja, thank you for trying to help, but did you read the OP? I don't have access to Swordsage or Chameleon.
LogicNinja, thank you for trying to help, but did you read the OP?
Apparently not thoroughly enough! My bad.
You can substitute Monk for Swordsage, and if you *having* the books is an issue, Chameleon is availible for free online.
Alternatively, just keep taking Soulbow instead of Chameleon and focus on that.
I don't know about walking around in full plate, though. I really don't like the idea of being slowed down that much. Though if I got speed of thought, I could move at 30 feet in mithril full plate, since it is medium armor. That would be quite expensive, though. Maybe after a while. You don't think that soulbow 4 would be worth it for the extra +1 to the mindblade / arrow? I wouldn't lose any BAB, just one feat.
If you want a more typical scout variety soulbow, you don't want to be walking around in full plate. The build I posted in that thread was primarily designed to break the typical mold though and demonstrate a soulbow who was almost fully dependent on Wisdom.
If you are interested a character that basically just plants themselves and continually takes full attacks, dwarves don't lose any speed in heavy armor though. So you could walk around in full plate with a 30 speed with Speed of Thought.
For the soulbow levels themselves, I would probably say soulbow 8 would be a good breaking point actually. When I was talking about the BAB loss, I was speaking to the soulknife entry (which you might have been as well). Soulknife 4/Fighter 1 would actually be better with the alternate class features that were posted for it awhile back-- I believe that let you switch out psychic strike for a feat. Keep in mind if you go up to Soulknife 4/Fighter 1 though, you will need to have fighter or soulknife as a favored class.
-snip-You can substitute Monk for Swordsage.... -snip-
If you can convice your DM: The Moonwarded Ranger from Dragon Magazine is a Ranger that loses his first stage of weapon style at 2nd level to gain Wis to AC in light or unarmored, and continues his Combat style from then on.
Wis Dependent and better BAB. I think it's worth discussing. You end up being a "Wise old hunter."
If you want a more typical scout variety soulbow, you don't want to be walking around in full plate. The build I posted in that thread was primarily designed to break the typical mold though and demonstrate a soulbow who was almost fully dependent on Wisdom.
If you are interested a character that basically just plants themselves and continually takes full attacks, dwarves don't lose any speed in heavy armor though. So you could walk around in full plate with a 30 speed with Speed of Thought.
For the soulbow levels themselves, I would probably say soulbow 8 would be a good breaking point actually. When I was talking about the BAB loss, I was speaking to the soulknife entry (which you might have been as well). Soulknife 4/Fighter 1 would actually be better with the alternate class features that were posted for it awhile back-- I believe that let you switch out psychic strike for a feat. Keep in mind if you go up to Soulknife 4/Fighter 1 though, you will need to have fighter or soulknife as a favored class.
Yeah, I was meaning soulknife, I sometimes slip up between the two. If I did go to dwarf I would get a preferred class of fighter, which would work for the soulknife 4/Fighter 1. You don't think that the +1 from the fourth level of soulknife would be worth the fourth level compared to one feat from the fighter?
I would still need to be wearing medium armor for speed of thought, it says it doesn't work with heavy armor. I am thinking of going for Fighter 1/Soulknife 4/Soulbow 8/War Mind 7, it would be nice if I could get to war mind 8, for the next level of powers and the extra power known, but I doubt I will get to 20 anyway, it is a PbP game, so it goes really slow. I will probably have the whole build up to level 8 posted soon, and will work on adding levels after that. Just remember, I want a build that makes the DM laugh, not cry. Yes, I know, I probably came to the wrong place, but I have heard a lot about the underpoweredness of the soulknife, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to be dead weight.
edit: and thanks for the other ideas, you two, but I like balth's better right now, oddball dwarf builds are fun.
:D
Turns out that elves are allowed, I misunderstood the DM. The immortal, 7-foot-tall elves are extinct, the lesser mortal/bastard elves are still allowed (pretty much identical to stats from the PHB).
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14238514&postcount=13
for your game .... why not just something simple:
Human
Ranger 2/ Soulknife 2/ Fighter 1/ Soulbow 1
27 point buy:
12 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
13 Int
14 Wis
8 Cha
Great skills
extra Feats
finish like this:
Ranger 2/ Soulknife 2/ Fighter 1/ Soulbow 8/ Warmind 7
BAB +17
12 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
13 Int
19 Wis(14+5 lvls)
8 Cha
take Zen Archery
:D
Ranger 2/ Soulknife 2/ Monk 1/ Soulbow 8/ Warmind 7
BAB+16
great Saves
nice ... fully armed and Armored even when wearing nothing and with empty hands
:D
Yeah, I was meaning soulknife, I sometimes slip up between the two. If I did go to dwarf I would get a preferred class of fighter, which would work for the soulknife 4/Fighter 1. You don't think that the +1 from the fourth level of soulknife would be worth the fourth level compared to one feat from the fighter?
I would still need to be wearing medium armor for speed of thought, it says it doesn't work with heavy armor. I am thinking of going for Fighter 1/Soulknife 4/Soulbow 8/War Mind 7, it would be nice if I could get to war mind 8, for the next level of powers and the extra power known, but I doubt I will get to 20 anyway, it is a PbP game, so it goes really slow.
I was actually misremembering the soulknife progression-- the split that I was recalling was between level 2 and 3. Psychic strike generally isn't terribly worthwhile-- you might want to try this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a. It gives a bonus feat option that would definitely make Soulknife 4/Fighter 1 better than Soulknife 3/Fighter 2.
Another option for the maneuverability is just using Boots of Striding and Springing or other forms of magical boosts until you can afford the mithril plate.
For the extra level of War Mind, you are making a straight trade between a 4th level psychic warrior power and phase arrow. I could see several of the utility powers being worth that trade given the limitations on phase arrow and its full attack action requirement.
Heavily armored
Dwarf Fighter 1/Soulknife 4/Soulbow 1
Str=10 (2)
Dex=14 (6)
Con=14 (4)
Int=10 (2)
Wis=18 (13) (+1 at 4)
Cha= 6 (0)
HP= 72 (max)
Initiative= +6
Fort save: +5
Reflex save: +8
Will save: +10
Melee attack: +4
Ranged attack: +8
AC: 19
Weapons
Mind blade: 1d6 + 1, +6 to hit
Mind Arrow: 1d8 + 5, +10 to hit
Masterwork composite longbow: 1d8, +9 to hit
Feats
Improved Initiative (1)
Wild Talent (SKn 1)
Point blank shot (F1)
Speed of Thought (3)
Rapid shot (SBow 1)
Zen archery (6)
Armor:
Mithral Breastplate: 4200gp (AC penalty 1, max dex +5, weight 15)
Large Darkwood shield: 257gp (AC penalty 0, weigh 5)
Masterwork composite longbow: 400gp (weight 3)
10 adamantine arrows: 600gp, 5sp (weight 1.5)
10 silver arrows: 20gp, 5sp (weight 1.5)
10 cold iron arrows: 1gp (weight 1.5)
Dwarf Fighter 1/Soulknife 4/Soulbow 1
Str=10 (2)
Dex=14 (6)
Con=14 (4)
Int=10 (2)
Wis=18 (13) (+1 at 4)
Cha= 6 (0)
HP= 72 (max)
Initiative= +6
Fort save: +5
Reflex save: +8
Will save: +10
Melee attack: +4
Ranged attack: +8
AC: 19
Weapons
Mind blade: 1d6 + 1, +6 to hit
Mind Arrow: 1d8 + 5, +10 to hit
Masterwork composite longbow: 1d8, +9 to hit
Feats
Improved Initiative (1)
Wild Talent (SKn 1)
Point blank shot (F1)
Speed of Thought (3)
Rapid shot (SBow 1)
Zen archery (6)
Armor:
Mithral Breastplate: 4200gp (AC penalty 1, max dex +5, weight 15)
Large Darkwood shield: 257gp (AC penalty 0, weigh 5)
Masterwork composite longbow: 400gp (weight 3)
10 adamantine arrows: 600gp, 5sp (weight 1.5)
10 silver arrows: 20gp, 5sp (weight 1.5)
10 cold iron arrows: 1gp (weight 1.5)
edit: Balthanon, Soulknife3 /fighter 2 would still get the psychic strike ability, you get it at third, at fourth you just get a +1 bonus to your mindblade, and since that stacks with the bonus from the soulbow, I figured that would be worth it.
I'm aware.
I agree that Soulknife 4/Fighter 1 is the better solution unless you happen to be desperate for feats, which you shouldn't be. (The alternative class feature actually makes Soulknife 3/Fighter 2 a bit better, Soulknife 4/Fighter 1 is probably superior in a low magic campaign.) Also, for a dwarf, encumberance shouldn't be an issue either, since it doesn't have any ill effects on them. (Though the magic that I suggested earlier for a speed boost likely wouldn't work since you're in a low-magic campaign.)Damage reduction used to be hierarchical in 3.0-- silver > +1 > +2 > +3 > etc... In 3.5, damage reduction is only bypassed by the whatever is mentioned in the DR. So DR 5/adamantine is only bypassed by an adamantine weapon. DR 15/silver and magic is only bypassed by a magic silver weapon. DR 10/cold iron or magic is bypassed by either a magic weapon or a cold iron weapon.
Human Monk 1/Soulknife 2/Fighter 2/Soulbow 1
Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 18
Cha: 8
Initiative modifier: +6 = +2 [dexterity] +4 [improved initiative]
Fortitude save: +6 = 5 [base] +1 [constitution]
Reflex save: +9 = 7 [base] +2 [dexterity]
Will save: +11 = 7 [base] +4 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +3 = 3 [base]
Attack (unarmed): +3 = 3 [base]
Flurry of Blows: +1/+1
Attack (missile): +7 = 3 [base] +4 [wisdom]
Grapple check: +3 = 3 [base]
AC: 16
HP: 64 (max)
Light load: 33 lb. or less
Medium load: 34-66 lb.
Heavy load: 67-100 lb.
Lift over head: 100 lb.
Lift off ground: 200 lb.
Push or drag: 500 lb.
Languages: Common
Unarmed Damage: 1d6
Mind blade: 1d6, +4 to hit
Mind Arrow: 1d8 + 4, +8 to hit
Composite Longbow: 1d8, +7 to hit
Feats:
Dodge [cobra strike]
Improved Initiative (1)
Improved Unarmed Strike [monk]
Point Blank Shot (1)
Wild Talent (Soulknife 1)
Weapon focus (Mindblade)
Psionic Meditation [psionic] (3)
Precise Shot (Fighter 1)
Rapid Shot (Fighter 2)
Psionic Shot [psionic] (soulbow 1)
Zen Archery (6)
Items:
Masterwork Composite Longbow 400gp (3lbs)
Lots o' special material arrows lots o' gp
try this:
Human
Ranger 2/ Soulknife 2/ Monk 1/ Soulbow 1
Ranger 1........ Point Blank Shot, Improved initiative(human bonus), Track(ranger bonus)
Soulknife 1..... Wild Talent (Soulknife bonus) ,Weapon focus (Mindblade), (Soulknife bonus)
Monk 1.......... Psionic Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike(monk bonus), Dodge(cobra strike- monk bonus)
Ranger 2 ....... Rapid Shot(ranger bonus)
Soulknife 2 ..
Soulbow 1 ..... Psionic Meditation, Zen Archery(soulbow bonus)
10 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
12 Int(11+1 lvl)
16 Wis
8 Cha
Initiative modifier: +6 = +2 [dexterity] +4 [improved initiative]
Fortitude save: +7 = 5 [base] +2 [constitution]
Reflex save: +12 = 10 [base] +2 [dexterity]
Will save: +10 = 7 [base] +3 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +3 = 3 [base]
Attack (unarmed): +3 = 3 [base]
Flurry of Blows: +1/+1
Attack (missile): +6 = 3 [base] +3 [wisdom]
Grapple check: +3 = 3 [base]
AC: 15
HP: 66 (max)
Skills:28+7+11+6+6=58
Class Skills:
Autohypnosis, Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist , Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (arcana/dungeoneering/geography/nature/religion/psionics), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope.
8 ranks Autohypnosis
5 ranks Balance
5 ranks Concentration
5 ranks Hide
5 ranks Listen
1 rank Knowledge-arcana
1 rank Knowledge-dungeoneering
1 rank Knowledge-geography
1 rank Knowledge-nature
1 rank Knowledge-religion
1 rank Knowledge-psionics
5 ranks Move Silently
5 ranks Search
7 ranks Spot
1 rank Survival
5 ranks Tumble
1 rank Use rope
in a place with little Magic.... Skills Rule.... although this build may not do quite as much damage.... it can easily survive and it can contribute far better to a Party
btw.... where do you find the Ranger Variant that gives Wis to AC???
:D
You would be better off going with 12 int from the beginning, 15 wis, and adding the wis at level 4, it will get you two more points to give to whatever you want.
I am skeptical of that build because it has a really low AC. I suppose you could wear armor anyway, and just get the bonus when you aren't wearing it, but you would have to be wearing light armor for the ranger bonuses, so the monk ability would only be useful when captured, right? Since you can wear light armor while sleeping, being attacked while sleeping wouldn't cause you to use it. You have 66 HP, sure, but that can drop quickly, not as quickly as if there was more common magic, but bugbears or the like would still hit hard, from brute force.
You don't keep class skills for all the other classes you have been in, do you? I thought you only got class skills for the class you took that level in. I like the versatility of the skills, but is knowledge really that useful of a skill? I had been planning to mostly go with autohypnosis, concentration, spot, listen, and move silently, getting some knowledge for eventual taking of war mind, but wasn't planning on getting that wide of a range of skills.
I am skeptical of that build because it has a really low AC. I suppose you could wear armor anyway, and just get the bonus when you aren't wearing it, but you would have to be wearing light armor for the ranger bonuses, so the monk ability would only be useful when captured, right? Since you can wear light armor while sleeping, being attacked while sleeping wouldn't cause you to use it.
You don't keep class skills for all the other classes you have been in, do you? I thought you only got class skills for the class you took that level in. I like the versatility of the skills, but is knowledge really that useful of a skill? I had been planning to mostly go with autohypnosis, concentration, spot, listen, and move silently, getting some knowledge for eventual taking of war mind, but wasn't planning on getting that wide of a range of skills.
Not sure if this is what you were getting at above, however, your ranger abilities will function without wearing light armor, you just can't wear medium or heavy. Your monk abilities will be fairly limited in light armor though. (Hmm, you know, allowing for Wis to AC in light armor would make for a good dual class feat between fighter and monk.)
For class skills, once you get a skill as a class skill, you can always have that skill at maximum ranks. However, the cost of the skill is dependent on the class you are adding-- so a ranger picking up Handle Animal 4, then multiclassing into monk could spend 2 skill points to boost it to 5 ranks.
The utility of knowledge tends to vary depending on the DM-- for some, you can pick up tremendous amounts of information on your enemies and situation with knowledge. Others don't use them as often and depend more on player knowledge.
I didn't have anything to add for a while there, but now I have more of an idea of what I am doing.
I am going to go with a human wearing the mithral breastplate, so far I am thinking of going Fighter 1/Soulknife 4/Soulbow 7/Full BAB class 8, starting with soulknife for the extra skills, if we get that far. I was planning on war mind, but I notice that mostly helps melee, and since my character will only have 10 or 12 strength, that isn't really useful, the defense chain would be helpful if I was under heavy attack, but it seems like there should be something better than that. I asked the DM if we could do fractional BAB, and if he says yes, I am thinking about going Psywarrior 1/Soulknife 4/Soulbow 7/Slayer 8 for good BAB and psionics, taking whatever kind of outsiders the big baddies are as my favored enemy, but looking at it again, I don't know if they are psychic, so I don't know if that would work. Any suggestions?
I am planning on maxing out my wis, since zen archery is okay, so far I am getting a predicted 1d8+5 damage and +10 to hit, before rapid shot. Even more if I can get a periapt of wisdom as well as the +1 mithral breastplate. The DM is going to allow magic, but won't let us go overboard, and obvious magical or highly valuable items will draw attention from unsavory folks, and still won't be enough to make us a match for some of the evils that are out there.
Are there any items I should be sure to get? I don't have enough extra weight capacity to get even a haversack without going into medium encumberance, but I suppose since I have speed of thought, I could just go around at medium and if I have to outrun something, I could stow my weapon in the haversack, since it would just be a couple pounds over with the weapon out. I plan on the weapon just being a decoy, because if bandits see someone walking along in armor with a flail and a shield, with no ranged weapon, they think fighter with no ranged capabilities, so they start attacking at long range, which is just fine with me.
Sorry if etiquette says I should post a new thread, I figured that since it was still about the same thing I should just bring this back up.
Oh, and while the chameleon is good, I don't think I am going to go with that, it is good, but it doesn't really fit the flavor of the character.
edit: Perhaps continuing along the fighter path after soulknife 7? At least to 4th, for an extra 2 damage from weapon specialization, as well as the other bonus feat.
I don't know what the 11th is, but yeah, the second level one is nice. I'm not going with it, though, I don't think the DM would like that.
Think Mind Blank, permanent, on level 11.
I took another look at the war mind, and now I see that one of the main draws is the quick access to higher level psionics, just not as many of them. I think I will go with that, I considered horizon walker, but I don't think it would be better than war mind, and it would be tough to get eight ranks in knowledge geography without falling behind in other useful skills (especially autohypnosis, no, I don't think I want to be losing HP right now, thanks).
Are there any items I should be sure to get? I don't have enough extra weight capacity to get even a haversack without going into medium encumberance, but I suppose since I have speed of thought, I could just go around at medium and if I have to outrun something, I could stow my weapon in the haversack, since it would just be a couple pounds over with the weapon out. I plan on the weapon just being a decoy, because if bandits see someone walking along in armor with a flail and a shield, with no ranged weapon, they think fighter with no ranged capabilities, so they start attacking at long range, which is just fine with me.
If you're having issues with weight, your best bet in a low magic campaign is probably an 8 gold donkey or a 75 gold light horse if you don't want to drop the speed of the rest of the party. Most of your mundane equipment that is likely upping your weight can easily go on a mount and come out of your own backpack.
Likewise, in combat you might as well just drop the flail entirely rather than taking time (a move action) to stow it in a haversack. Do you really care if you lose out on the 8 gold the weapon is going to cost you if someone picks it up and runs?
The only essentials you probably want are low key defensive items and the periapt of wisdom-- or perhaps a helmet of wisdom if your DM doesn't have an issue with changing around the appearance of magic items. If you actually have a wizard or sorcerer in the party, I would look into Nystul's Magic Aura as a spell as well if you need to disguise the magic on your items.
I was thinking of having a mule, possible downside would be it can die and I have to keep track of it, possible upside would be that is less magic for my character, which might mean a bonus from the DM to balance the characters. The current AC is 20, with +1 breastplate, 14 dex, and a heavy shield, I suppose I might ask for more +1 AC items, maybe in place of the HHH, just keep easily replaced items on the mule, keeping some rations and whatnot on me, shed the flail and... maybe shield, though I would try not to need to do that, when I need to go at 40.
That reminds me, does medium armor that gets made light have a 30 foot base move speed? I don't see anything specifically saying that armor speed restrictions are based on the weight, but all medium and heavy armor is 20, and medium and heavy encumberance are as well. I think for the most part it just gets taken for granted, but does anyone know of something that says for sure?
I have query: I'm trying to build a 15th level character that includes Chameleon and Soulbow, with some sort of access to Wisdom to AC (Monk, Moonwarded Ranger, Swordsage, etc) optimally. Lastly, I need to include one level of Psion to incorporate an Alternate Class Feature.
So far, I have:
Psion 1/Moonwarded Ranger 2/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 3/Chameleon 10/Deepwood Sniper 2
Psion 1/Monk 1/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 4/Chameleon 10/Deepwood Sniper 2
Note: Don't worry about skill requirements to get into the PrCs. Using Pathfinder means you can grab any skills without cc issues.
Any suggestions?