Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Endarire May 31, 2008 4:55:28	Seeing a need to fill, this is a list of creatures with no more than 15 HD and at least 20 base INT and are able to use verbal and somatic spell components. Most creatures with at least 20 INT, regardless of HD, are outsiders. Best INT: Sarruhk (30 INT) Most Versatile: Planetar [Angel] (25 STR, 19 DEX, 20 CON, 22 INT, 90' fly (good), 19 natural armor, misc. resists and immunities from being an angel) Earliest Excellent Entry: White Ethergaunt (11HD, 27 INT) Arcanaloth [Yugoloth] (MM2 202): 12HD Outsider, 20 INT, 50' fly (poor), 15 NA Dream Master Quori [Quori] (MOE 148): 12 HD Outsider [Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful, Psionic, Quori], 22 INT, 40' fly (perfect), 8 NA Note: Dream Masters, if they hit with 2 claws, force a Will 22 or be dazed for 1 round. Go incapacitation! Ice Devil [Devil]: 14HD Outsider, 22 INT, 18NA Ice Weird (FB 126): 15HD Elemental [Cold], 20 INT, 30' swim, 8 NA Note: Ice weirds are cold immune because of their [Cold] subtype, but take double damage from fire. Logokron [Devil] (TOM 265): 15HD Outsider, 26 INT, 40' fly (average), 13 NA Mooncalf (MM2 150): 15HD Magical Beast, 21 INT, 150' fly (poor), 13 NA Nalfeshnee: 14HD Undead, 22 INT, 40' fly (poor), 18 NA Planetar [Angel]: 14HD Outsider, 22 INT, 90' fly (good), 19 NA Pleasure Devil (FC2 134): 12HD Outsider, 23 INT, 60' fly (good), 7 NA Sarruhk (Serpent Kingdoms 80): 14HD Monstrous Humanoid, 30 INT (!), 18 NA Note: Sarruhk come in bipedal and snaketail varities. Snow Weird (FB 127): 15HD Elemental [Air], 20 INT, 60' fly (perfect), 4 NA Thoon Elder Brain (MM5 121): 12HD Aberration, 25 INT, 20' fly (perfect) and 30' swim, 15 NA Note: You become a Large brain. With shapechange, you can get Dual Actions (Ex) which allows the brain to make one mental and one physical action per turn. White Ethergaunt (FF 67): 11HD Aberration, 27 INT, 10 NA Sources Represented Show Book of Exalted Deeds (BOED) Book of Vile Darkness (BOVD) Champions of Ruin (CoR) Complete Arcane (CA) Draconomicon (Dra) Dungeonscape (Dun) Eberron Campaign Setting (ECS) Expanded Psionics Handbook (XPH) Fiendish Codex 2 (FC2) Fiend Folio (FF) Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (FRCS) Frostburn (FB) Lost Empires of Faerun (LEOF) Magic of Eberron (MOE) Magic of Faerun (MaOF) Monster Manuals 1-5 (MM1-5) Oriental Adventures (OA) Power of Fearun (POF) Races of Faerun (ROF) Serpent Kingdoms (SK) Sandstorm (Sand) Shining South (SS) Silver Marches (SM) Tome of Magic (TOM) Unapproachable East (UE) Underdark (Und)
#2 noldorforce May 31, 2008 11:50:47	You'll probably want to list HD for the above forms. Anyway: Brachina (Pleasure Devil, FC2 134): Outsider, 23 INT, 60' fly (good), 7 NA, 12 HD Logokron (Devil, ToM 265): Outsider, 26 INT, 40' fly (average), 13 NA, 15 HD I've always liked the brachina due to its high Dexterity (which offsets the lack of natural armor) and its at-will contact poison (which affects Wisdom!).
#3 Endarire Jun 02, 2008 0:55:57	Greatly updated. All creatures now have their HD listed.
#4 carnivore Jun 03, 2008 5:10:11	nice thread .... useful :D
#5 ancientdragon Nov 04, 2008 11:19:34	I suggest beholder, since LoP posted his first dirty trick.
#6 PlzBreakMyCampaign Nov 04, 2008 11:44:08	Am I correct in thinking that in order to make the Duration factor permanent and increase a character's Int, one would need to be the two of the same size, related or the same type as the new form? What a bummer. Also this provides a handy way of getting out of some of those juicy-yet-saddening --> no int, wis, or cha templates that are common for undead. Perhaps you could add a third tier from 15-20HD forms (for those who are going to pay an NPC)?
#7 arcane-surge Nov 04, 2008 11:46:22	Just cast the spell twice. The first casting gives you the type and size and whatnot of the creature in question at x duration. The second casting, is going to be based off your form and type from the first, and thus becomes permanent.
#8 PlzBreakMyCampaign Nov 04, 2008 12:37:18	I know that was the consensus on LoP's trick, but don't we have a stacking issue there? Specifically does the 2nd casting of PaO allow the 1st to count for determining duration during the casting? I know the target would be legal, but the spell mentions as part of its effect the duration being dependent on the "original state." And since the 1st casting isn't permanent, the 'original state' for the 2nd casting would not have changed to me. Call me a stickler but I'm not yet convinced... Note that Polymorph (regular), shapeshift, or metamorphosis would still stack but since NPC's won't follow you to a casting place, you would have to set up a teleport to the 2nd PaO NPC under your own steam (unless you paid a third NPC for a teleport, twice).
#9 tshern Nov 04, 2008 13:12:25	You could of course just play an aberattion in the first place, an elan for example.
#10 Endarire Feb 04, 2009 22:05:24	Ker-bump!
#11 Endarire Mar 03, 2009 20:51:35	Bump of the month!
#12 Endarire Jun 01, 2009 21:47:22	Bump of the moment!
#13 yoss Jun 02, 2009 13:49:05	Perhaps you could add a third tier from 15-20HD forms (for those who are going to pay an NPC)? What is the HD limit for PAO? Is it 15 like Polymorph? If so, why are you considering the 15-20HD range?
#14 Endarire Jun 02, 2009 17:39:31	PAO's HD limit is normally 15.
#15 dr_rocktopus Jun 02, 2009 18:00:29	Is there a way to snag another form's cha score?
#16 Endarire Jun 02, 2009 18:02:51	I know of no RAW way to assume another creature's WIS or/and CHA from changing forms, though custom and epic spells could do that.
#17 dr_rocktopus Jun 02, 2009 19:28:49	Well, what if you were PaO'd into a form with no cha\wis, like a rock, then pao'd into a form?
#18 Endarire Jun 02, 2009 20:24:00	PAO states, paraphrased, that PAO can be used to transform an object into a creature and gain its WIS and CHA scores. ("If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form.") Normal polymorph says, "The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores." From my understanding, you may be able to change WIS & CHA scores if you PAO into an object like a pebble then PAO into another creature, but all this is lost if AMFed or dispelled. It's all a matter of whether your DM interprets "PAO into object means losing WIS & CHA" or "PAO into object keeps original WIS & CHA."
#19 dr_rocktopus Jun 02, 2009 20:29:51	Hrum, that MIGHT be worth it... Does it still get dispelled if the duration goes to permanent?
#20 Endarire Jun 03, 2009 10:58:30	Permanent duration effects are dispellable which is why in part permanency sucks. Instantaneous effects are never dispellable.
#21 PlzBreakMyCampaign Jun 03, 2009 13:51:31	PAO's HD limit is normally 15. My bad Also I'd like to point out (the wis & cha part reminded me) that the board's consensus is a valid interpretation. However its not the one I hold (mine is a different, legitimate one) even after another glance. This is still a great thread. Perhaps Wis and Cha forms should be added...
#22 user5127 Jun 03, 2009 16:02:11	I don't believe they stack. PaO when cast checks your original form to determine duration, a second casting would just check your original form again to determine duration. specifically: The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state. The DM determines the duration by using the following guidelines. the spell is checking the original state always, never the new state that was set in place by magic. EDIT: basically, when cast you now have an "enchanted state" as well as an "original state". the enchanted state is the form with a duration (including permanent), the original state is what you were before the spell was cast.
#23 Endarire Jun 03, 2009 22:30:51	I interpret PAO to mean its duration is checked on casting. 1: I start as a human Wizard via PAO. I'm a human for my original state. 2: I turn myself into a planetar briefly. I'm a planetar for my enhanced state. 3: As a planetar, I cast PAO on myself again. My first original state- human- is now overwritten with my new original state, planetar, since I was a solar at the time of casting. Since turning a creature into the same type of creature has a duration of at least 9, it's permanent.
#24 yoss Jun 05, 2009 13:48:37	How are you turning into a Solar when the HD limit is 15 (inherit from Polymorph)? If the limit is not the 15 limit from Polymorph, then what is the limit and where does it say so?
#25 Endarire Jun 05, 2009 15:11:52	I edited the above post to read planetar instead of solar. The same notion applies.
#26 phaedrusxy Jun 05, 2009 17:50:11	the spell is checking the original state always, never the new state that was set in place by magic. EDIT: basically, when cast you now have an "enchanted state" as well as an "original state". the enchanted state is the form with a duration (including permanent), the original state is what you were before the spell was cast. The "enchanted state" is the one after the spell is cast. The spell checks your state before it was cast, as opposed to after it was cast. Other spells cast before it can modify your state independently of it. These previous spells alter your "original state", with respect to PaO. Now... do I think this should be allowed in a game? No. I also think that the second casting of PaO should overwrite the first entirely, in such a way so that any effects the first casting had upon your "state" are disregarded. So I don't agree that this should be allowed or legal. I just don't think it should be disallowed or considered illegal for the reasons you're arguing.
#27 Endarire Jan 13, 2013 22:50:04	Saved by the love of Jesus!