Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 CubeKnight Sep 30, 2007 20:42:43	Moved to Brilliant Gameologists. Save Autum! Original Post I'm playing a Sorcerer in a campaign online, we just hit level 12, and I feel that my spell list is severely lacking on good disabling spells. I've been searching around for quite some time in these boards for a good list of Sorc spells, but the lists I've found are quite outdated. Good for ideas, and a basic list, but I have the feeling the juiciest spells are being left out. So, I'm asking if anyone knows of a good list of SobS spells. In case there isn't one already, any chance we can start a list one? I volunteer to maintain it, and can help with Druid SobS spells, given than Druids are the class I have the most experience playing with. And, if starting a new list is too much trouble, then perhaps someone could throw a few spells I can check? My char is a Draconic Kobold (homeruled, no Con penalty, no light sensitivity, +2 Cha) Sorcerer/Dragonheart Mage//Dragon Shaman/Sorcerer. His effective sorcerer level is 12, and he has 29 Cha. I'm thinking about taking Spell Rehearsal as my level 12 feat to further increase the DCs. The sourcebooks alllowed for spells are: Spell Compendium, Dragon Magic, Races of the Dragon, Complete Warrior, Divine, Arcane and Adventurer. The only SobS spells I have so far are: Level 1: Charm Person (W) Level 2: Glitterdust (W) Level 3: Unluck (W) Level 4: Blinding Breath (R) Level 5: Wrack (F), Dominate Person (W) Level 6: Disintegrate (F) F = Fort, R = Ref, W = Will I'm looking for other spells, but I can't find much. Flesh to Stone is nice, but I took Disintegrate instead for utility. Prismatic Ray also has a couple of SoD effects, but it's too random. So, any spells I should check out? Or perhaps we can start compiling a list for the base classes at least, expanding it to include more classes in the future?
#2 zorgling25 Sep 30, 2007 21:00:45	I found this in Surreal's list. It could probably be expanded though.
#3 duncandun Sep 30, 2007 21:23:59	Phantasmal Killer:W
#4 CubeKnight Sep 30, 2007 21:40:38	I found this in Surreal's list. It could probably be expanded though. Thanks, that's the kind of list I was looking for. Phantasmal Killer:W I don't like Phantasmal Killer. Having 2 saves really decreases its success rate. But you are right, it's a SoD, and should be considered.
#5 CubeKnight Oct 01, 2007 7:51:52	Any other ideas? If there's not a lot by the end of the day, I guess I'll start a new thread to try and compile said spells. Would be a nice resource for casters, IMO.
#6 farodin Oct 01, 2007 11:17:45	This has a very nice section on spells, including a lot of save or suck spells. This also has nice spell lists, but it is pretty outdated.
#7 CubeKnight Oct 02, 2007 18:35:43	This has a very nice section on spells, including a lot of save or suck spells. This also has nice spell lists, but it is pretty outdated. Thanks, I'll take a look at them in a bit. Also, I went and started to compile the list. So far, I wrote down the spells from PHB and Spell Compendium that I considered save-or-be-screwed. I'm not sure on some of those, given that I haven't had the chance to test them all, so I'd appreciate feedback- Most likely, I skipped some good spells and added complete crap.
#8 CubeKnight Oct 02, 2007 22:46:37	Added FrostBurn and SandStorm
#9 deathofrats Oct 02, 2007 23:12:26	It would be great if you took out the show buttons, and just kept it hidden by level...too much clicking is a pain!
#10 zorgling25 Oct 02, 2007 23:18:19	It would be great if you took out the show buttons, and just kept it hidden by level...too much clicking is a pain! Seconded.
#11 cannibalsmith Oct 03, 2007 0:39:59	All hail CubeKnight! I will definitely use this list regularly.
#12 narodnik Oct 03, 2007 0:56:03	I agree with the too much clicking; and I think breaking it down with clicks for each type is excessive. Just give it a heading of 'will', rather than another drop down list.
#13 echodork Oct 03, 2007 1:14:53	You need another section... for "other" spells like evard's black tentacles which is grapple-or-lose, and for spells that offer no save, like maze.
#14 CubeKnight Oct 03, 2007 15:11:18	Ok, I'll tone down the excessive spoiler blocks. People always tell me I tend to go overboard when I'm categorizing stuff >_> And I tought about the 'Other' category, but I didn't know if it was worth it. To be quite honest, I'm a bit reluctant to go through the PHB and the SpC again, so I'll have to rely on other posters to fill the "Other" spells. Also... it may take me a bit to update the list. After having a lot of problems this with my laptop, I wasted all morning trying to fix it, finally repairing it, but losing 512 megabytes of RAM in the process. Now the lack of RAM is killing me. And I have to catch up on my work, since I skipped it to fix my laptop *sigh*
#15 zorgling25 Oct 03, 2007 15:20:46	Ok, I'll tone down the excessive spoiler blocks. People always tell me I tend to go overboard when I'm categorizing stuff >_> Oh, I like them being categorized by saves, I just think having so many spoiler blocks is counter-productive. Consider something like this: Fortitude: *Spell 1 *Spell 2 *Spell 3 Reflex: *Spell 4 *Spell 5 *Spell 6 Will: *Spell 7 *Spell 8 *Spell 9 With bullet points replacing asterisks. It might also be worth noting be-screwed spells without saves (e.g. Forcecage)
#16 cannibalsmith Oct 04, 2007 0:34:59	I suggest this format: Wizard (class in bold) Fort Spells sorted by level. Each spell has SR yes/no listed. Some Spell Ref (empty categories not displayed) Will 4: Bestow Curse (SR) - this is a description text of a spell with spell resistance. It also has link to SRD because it's core. Also, it's not a really good save-or-suck. Grapple 4: Black Tentacles - this spell has no spell resistance. None
#17 CubeKnight Oct 04, 2007 10:31:18	Ok, reformatted, how does it look? I kept them in Class > Level > Save, instead of Class > Save > Level. SR yes/no would be great indeed, I'll add it when I have the time, most likely as a descriptor ([NSR] for te ones that don't allow SR, since most of them do allow SR, pretty much all would be marked [SR] the other way around) Also, Bestow Curse isn't good enough? I don't know, -4 to everything or 50% chance to do nothing at all seems pretty hard.
#18 hyfigh Oct 04, 2007 11:52:19	Maybe reformat again so that each class has it's own spoiler block. Other than that this looks fantastic.
#19 gabrion Oct 04, 2007 15:09:12	I believe the 7th level Sorc/Wiz spell Solipsism should be under will save rather than reflex.
#20 CubeKnight Oct 05, 2007 12:56:35	I left it all out of spoiler blocks to make the list searchable. Also, you're right, Gabrion. Moved it.
#21 zombiegleemax Oct 05, 2007 15:12:27	Maybe note that Illusory Pit still screws you over for a round even if you pass the save. I don't think disintegrate really qualifies. They'd have to have 7 or less HP for every level you have. Few CR 13s have less than 91 HP. It has to hit, too. Spells like Sphere of Ultimate Destruction that are based on it also aren't that good. It would help if you listed every source a spell was in. In case you don't have the other books they're from, I'll list the books I have that contain spells you mentioned. Libris Mortis - Clutch of Orcus, Blade of Pain and Fear, Avasculate, Avascular Mass Complete Arcane - Bands of Steel, Unluck, Orb of Acid, Orb of Cold, Burning Blood, Prismatic Ray, Spiritwall, Illusory Pit, Transfix, Arrow of Bone, Blackfire, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction Draconomicon - Stunning Breath, Greater Stunning Breath, Antimagic Ray, Maddening Whispers There might be a few I missed, but that's most of them.
#22 CubeKnight Oct 06, 2007 11:56:39	Ok, I'll do so. ...just that my laptop died again (goddammed motherboard) and now I'm stuck with kidnappnig my sister's laptop whenever she's not using it. So, all of my notes and the like are gone for now. I'll get a new MoBo sometime during next week, and that's when you can expect the next update. I just hope the HD survived.
#23 Yue_Ryong Oct 07, 2007 19:40:13	Does this list not have any room for things that don't allow actual saves? Otto's Irresistible Dance & the Power Word spells spring to mind.
#24 tensaiga Oct 07, 2007 21:29:21	Can we help by submitting spells from other books?
#25 CubeKnight Oct 08, 2007 7:56:31	Does this list not have any room for things that don't allow actual saves? Otto's Irresistible Dance & the Power Word spells spring to mind. Yeah. When I get my laptop fixed, I plan on adding both "None" and "Other" categories, for the likes of Power Word and Black Tentacles. Can we help by submitting spells from other books? Of course! Right now I can't access the .txt where I had all of my notes saved, so it'd be a huge help if people could list their favorite SobS spells. Besides, it's not like I own every book available, I don't have many of the most recent ones. Also, I kinda wanted to select the 'best' spell for each level for each class, and highlight it. However, my experience with Cleric and Sorc/Wiz spells is quite limited, and I'd like some input on that as well.
#26 zorgling25 Oct 08, 2007 13:39:27	Of course! Right now I can't access the .txt where I had all of my notes saved, so it'd be a huge help if people could list their favorite SobS spells. Besides, it's not like I own every book available, I don't have many of the most recent ones. Also, I kinda wanted to select the 'best' spell for each level for each class, and highlight it. However, my experience with Cleric and Sorc/Wiz spells is quite limited, and I'd like some input on that as well. May I suggest a formatting change? I rather like the color-coding Dictum Mortuum uses in his myriad handbooks (for good, bad, and just plain awesome choices), and I think a similar color scheme would be appropriate here.
#27 tensaiga Oct 09, 2007 2:02:27	Here is my first attempt: BoED. Not the best book, and the spells show it. As cool as blind is, finding 800 billion ways to blind evil people gets kinda...redundant. There was at least 1 or 2 REALLY good looking spells in here however. I'm looking at you constricting chains. You may need to edit some of these to fit your list. I just literally jotted down notes on them, so they may have snide comments, too much info, or too little info. Note that sanctified spells can be cast by any prepared casters. Should I count Domain spells as cleric spells? Oh well, spells with a * belong to domains, just to be safe. Amber Sarcophagus - Sorc/Wiz, 7, No save. On ranged touch attack hold enemy in stasis for 1 day/level. Ayailla's Radiant Burst - Sanc, 2, Fort. Blinds evil creatures for 1 round in a cone AoE. Requires 1d2 STR sacrifice *Blinding Beauty - Bard/Rang/Druid, 4, Fort. Gain the beauty of a nymph; People who look at you must fort or be permanently blinded. *Blinding Glory - Sorc/Wiz, 9, No save. Evil creatures are blinded in ridiculously huge AoE. 100ft per level radius. Brilliant Emanation - Sanc, 3, Fort. Evil creatures are blinded. If they succed the save they are distracted. Requires 1d3 STR sacrifice. Constricting Chains - Sanc, 7, No save. Target is entangled, can't move, must conc check or lose spells, and take 3d6 nonlethal damage per turn. Requires 1d2 STR drain sacrifice. Crown of Brilliance - Cleric, 6, Fort/Will. Creatures you melee save or are blinded for 1d4 rounds. Sunlight affected creatures (Light sensitivity, damage, helplessness) must make a will save or have to move over 20 feet away. Dancing Web - Cleric/Druid/Sorc/Wiz, 5/5/4, Reflex. Does nonlethal damage and entangles evil creatures. Dolorous Motes - Bard/Sorc/Wiz, 4/3, Will. Target must save or be dazed for 1 round. New save each round. Requires 1d3 WIS sacrifice. Emerald Burst - Sorc/Wiz, 5, Fort. Neutral creatures dazed for 1 round, evil creatures are stunned for 1d4 rounds. Heaven's Trumpet - Bard/Cleric, 6/7, Fort. Save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. *Last Judgment - Cleric/Sorc/Wiz, 8, Will. Save or die and be instantly transported to the lower plane you deserve to be in. If you save, take 3d6 wis damage from guilt. Leonal's Roar - Druid, 8, Fort. As holy word, with an additional 2d6 sonic damage. Fort save is only for damage. *Lastai's Caress - Cleric, 2, No save. Evil opponent is shaken, frightened, nauseated, or cowering. Radiant Fog - Sorc/Wiz, 4, Fort. As solid fog, but creatures that are in it are dazzled and creatures with light sensitivity or worse are blinded. Rain of Black Tulips - Druid, 9, Fort. Damage, and evil creatures are nauseated. Raid of Roses - Druid, 7, Fort. 1d4 temp wis damage per round, at 0 wis creatures fall unconscious. Evil creatures are sickened. *Righteous Smite - Cleric, 7, Will. Damage and (gasp) blinds evil for 1d4 rounds. Sanctify the Wicked - Sanc, 9, Will. Traps the soul of an evil creature in a gem and destroys their body. Gradually the soul becomes good. If the gem is shattered 1 year later, the creature is reformed, with the sanctified creature template, and is the alignment of the caster. Requires 1 level sacrifice (ouch!). Sicken Evil - Sanc, 5, No save. Aura that sickens evil creatures. Requires 1d4 str sacrifice. *Spread of Contentment - Cleric, 8, No save. Hostile and unfriendly creatures become indifferent (!!), indifferent become friendly, and friendly become helpful. Storm of Shards - Sanc, 6, Fort. Does damage in an AoE and evil creatures save or are permanently blinded. Requires 1d3 STR drain sacrifice. Tomb of Light - Cleric/Sorc/Wiz, 7, Fort. If the creature fails save, they are held immobilized and helpless. Duration is concentration, but you take 1d6 nonlethal damage every turn you concentrate. Each round it is held (besides the first) it taked 1d6 permanent con drain. *Unearthly Beauty - Druid, 8, Will. Same as blinding beauty but any creature that looks at you must save or die. Vanishing Weapon - Sorc/Wiz, 5, Dispel check. Causes one weapon to glow blue. If that weapon touches any creature brought into being by Conjuration(Summoning) or Illusion(Shadow), dispel check to dispel them. *Vision of Heaven - Cleric, 1, Will. Target is dazed for 1 round. Wages of Sin - Sorc/Wiz, 6, Will. Target evil creature turns on other evil creatures and attacks them to the best of it's ability. Won't ignore non-evil creatures, but prefers evil targets. Warcray - Bard/Sorc/Wizard, 3, Fort. Targets cower in fear for 1d4 rounds, unable to take actions. Yoke of Mercy - Sorc/Wiz, 2, Will. Creature up to 4 HD more than caster will fight mercifully, dealing non-lethal damage, not casting damaging spells, and refusing to coup-de-grace.
#28 CubeKnight Oct 09, 2007 8:38:26	Ok... how does red for bad choices, blue for good choices and bolded blue for awesome choices sound? Also, will add those spells ASAP. BoED is one of the books I don't have. I was thinking on adding another descriptor ([Dmn]) to indicate a Domain spell, and [Snc] for Sanctified spells
#29 cannibalsmith Oct 09, 2007 8:48:41	Dictum's style is too colorful for my tastes. Bold the best choice for a particular level if you really want to, but don't list bad choices at all - they're bad after all.
#30 cannibalsmith Oct 09, 2007 10:43:01	My contribution: Complete Mage. Blackrot - Druid/WuJen, 2/2, Fort, enchant a wooden stick (your quarterstaff, for example) with this and beat someone repeatedly. Each hit forces Fort vs sickened for a round. Counts as poison. Crypwarden's Grasp - SorWiz, 5, Fort, target gets mummy rot. The first ability damage kicks in instantly. Hit some guard monster with this and wait a few days. Endless Slumber - Bard/SorWiz, 5/6, Will, no HD limit. Save or sleep. Great Worm of the Earth - Druid/WuJen, 7/7, Ref, save or be swallowed by earth itself. Might be completely digested. Horrid Sickness - Hexblade/SorWiz, 4/4, Fort, mass nauseating for a few rounds. Melf's Slumber Arrows - Bard/SorWiz, 4/4, Fort, multiple 15 HD sleep. Combine with True Strike or Near Horizon (a Complete Mage Assassin/Ranger spell) for awesome range. Otto's Imperative Ambulation - Bard, 3, Will, a hilarious spell that forces the target to move around making him incapable of full attacks and provoking lots of attacks of opportunity. Rain of Spines - WuJen, 4, Ref, take damage and save or be prone and entangled. Smoky Confinement - SorWiz, 6, Fort, save or be bottled forever (or until the bottle is opened or broken). Torrent of Tears - Bard/SorWiz/WuJen, 2/2/2, Will, save or be blinded and sickened. Touch of Vecna - SorWiz, 5, Fort, save or be paralyzed. Touch of Years - SorWiz, 4, Fort, Another good hit and run spell. Save or die of old age over the course of a dew days.
#31 NiteCyper Oct 10, 2007 10:14:04	Ever seen Frank Trollman's 'spells that fvcking kill people' list?
#32 brislove Oct 10, 2007 13:34:00	a link has already been posted to Frank's list. Still both are excellent resources. I would vote for a bolding of the "top tier" SoX's for each level (maybe top one of each save type) for faster reference.
#33 zorgling25 Oct 10, 2007 13:45:31	Ever seen Frank Trollman's 'spells that fvcking kill people' list? I posted that in the first response to the thread.
#34 CubeKnight Oct 14, 2007 10:49:07	Got my laptop back. Added BoED. Working on Complete Mage.
#35 CubeKnight Oct 14, 2007 11:10:36	Added Complete Mage. Working on Player's Handbook II
#36 CubeKnight Oct 14, 2007 12:25:08	Added PHB2 spells, and the no-save spells I found on the PHB. I'll go trough the ones already posted tommorrow to mark the good ones. Also, I get the feeling I'm gonna hit the text cap soon
#37 skylancer4 Oct 18, 2007 18:05:57	Power word: pain, races of dragon I think. Great for low levels and vs. squishy types. The current hit point total is what determines the effect of the spell. No save but there is SR. Ideally it will do 1d6 damage initially and then and additional die of damage for four to sixteen rounds. Cast and then hide or run faster than the target.
#38 cannibalsmith Oct 19, 2007 0:37:24	Sleet Storm and Entangle are battlefield control not save-or-suck. Usually, your ability to finish the targets off is limited - the party's basher can't charge in and cut them up.
#39 CubeKnight Oct 19, 2007 9:12:20	Sleet Storm and Entangle are battlefield control not save-or-suck. Usually, your ability to finish the targets off is limited - the party's basher can't charge in and cut them up. Hmmm, true. I'll remove them.
#40 CubeKnight Oct 22, 2007 20:15:04	Added Sarcophagus of Stone now that we finally know what level it is.
#41 CubeKnight Nov 04, 2007 13:54:43	A quick bump, and just wanted to say that I'll get off my lazy ass soon and add more spells from other books.
#42 furious_kender Nov 04, 2007 20:15:08	Hesitate is also a cleric spell.
#43 CubeKnight Nov 04, 2007 21:34:59	Hesitate is also a cleric spell. Corrected
#44 saulot Nov 05, 2007 0:55:16	You might want to note that a few of these spells, while awsome, are very difficult to cast. Last Judgement in the Book of Exalted Deeds, which you have on the list, has a 'Celestial' component required. Meaning, you have to be an outsider with the good subtype to cast the spell at all. Being an outsider isn't hard, but having the good subtype is. I don't know which other spells are in the same boat, but I remember that one specifically from the first (and only) time I tried to use it.
#45 CubeKnight Nov 05, 2007 8:37:23	You might want to note that a few of these spells, while awsome, are very difficult to cast. Last Judgement in the Book of Exalted Deeds, which you have on the list, has a 'Celestial' component required. Meaning, you have to be an outsider with the good subtype to cast the spell at all. Being an outsider isn't hard, but having the good subtype is. I don't know which other spells are in the same boat, but I remember that one specifically from the first (and only) time I tried to use it. Well, most Exalted spells have some kind of requisite or another, but yeah, there's no comparing 1d6 Str drain with 1 level sacrificed, or having to be a Good Outsider. I'll add that to my to-do list and recheck them all for requisites.
#46 cannibalsmith Nov 05, 2007 11:02:42	Sacrifice and corruption costs of most spells can be easily recovered from.
#47 andrasotto_dup Nov 07, 2007 10:37:20	cleric, level 5 Will save [SpC] [Dmn] Darkbolt: save or be stunned, plus damage. Up to 7 targets
#48 CubeKnight Nov 07, 2007 11:54:20	cleric, level 5 Will save [SpC] [Dmn] Darkbolt: save or be stunned, plus damage. Up to 7 targets Added. And sorry for the lack of the (promised) updates >_< My job's workload suddenly increased, I should have some free time this weekend... I hope
#49 andrasotto_dup Nov 08, 2007 8:10:34	Here's another Sorc/Wiz 5 Will save [Spc] [AoE] Illusory Feast: long range, 40' radius, creatures in the area are distracted (dazed IIRC) for 1 round per level, unless attacked first.
#50 CubeKnight Nov 08, 2007 9:25:10	Here's another Sorc/Wiz 5 Will save [Spc] [AoE] Illusory Feast: long range, 40' radius, creatures in the area are distracted (dazed IIRC) for 1 round per level, unless attacked first. Added
#51 lifeblender Dec 17, 2007 22:55:26	Scintillating Pattern in the 8th-level Sor/Wiz section for None does not list its name: * [PHB][AoE] Leaves unconscious and/or stunned and/or confused a number of creatures with total HD equal to your CL.
#52 CubeKnight Dec 18, 2007 9:38:07	Scintillating Pattern in the 8th-level Sor/Wiz section for None does not list its name: Corrected.
#53 Endarire May 23, 2008 0:34:58	It's "Phantasmal Killer," not "Phantasmall Killer.
#54 CubeKnight May 23, 2008 2:58:18	It's "Phantasmal Killer," not "Phantasmall Killer. What, it can't be a small phantasm? :P Correcting now.
#55 shokatsuryou May 23, 2008 3:58:40	I have a few more to add: Bard Level 3 None [SpC] Ray of Dizziness: Single target slow, no save Level 4 Fort [PH2] Baleful Blink: target loses 50% of all actions Cleric Level 3 None [FrB] Shivering Touch: 3d6 Dex damage! Sor/Wiz Level 1 Fort [SpC][AoE] Wall of Smoke: Nauseated for one round Level 3 None [FrB] Shivering Touch: 3d6 Dex damage! [SpC] Ray of Dizziness: Single target slow, no save Level 4 Fort [SpC] Orb of Fire: Dazed for one round [PH2] Baleful Blink: target loses 50% of all actions Level 5 Will [PHB] Magic Jar: take control of creature(s) Level 6 Reflex [SpC][AoE] Freezing Fog: like solid fog, plus grease and damage.
#56 CubeKnight May 24, 2008 3:46:33	I have a few more to add: Bard Level 3 None [SpC] Ray of Dizziness: Single target slow, no save Level 4 Fort [PH2] Baleful Blink: target loses 50% of all actions Cleric Level 3 None [FrB] Shivering Touch: 3d6 Dex damage! Sor/Wiz Level 1 Fort [SpC][AoE] Wall of Smoke: Nauseated for one round Level 3 None [FrB] Shivering Touch: 3d6 Dex damage! [SpC] Ray of Dizziness: Single target slow, no save Level 4 Fort [SpC] Orb of Fire: Dazed for one round [PH2] Baleful Blink: target loses 50% of all actions Level 5 Will [PHB] Magic Jar: take control of creature(s) Level 6 Reflex [SpC][AoE] Freezing Fog: like solid fog, plus grease and damage. Added most of those. I skipped the Bard ones (mainly because I didn't have a Bard list >_>) and Shivering Touch. While it certainly hurts, I wouldn't consider it a SoBS.