Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 nebelmond Mar 19, 2008 11:25:18	Hi guys! My DM has strongly hinted at prefereing to see me make a new character, and I agree with him, so I'm hunting for something new again (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=989256). I already now that for the next step of our adventures the group will need a ship, so I thought why not make it easy for my DM and make a little pirate? Not the smelly kind, though. ^_^ So, this is what I came up with for prerequisites: race: Elf - I just like them. Gnome may be ok, too, though either duelwielding or einhander style dex and int or dex and cha based needs the skills to become a workable piratecaptain (some jump, climb, swim, balance, tumble, sense motive, bluff, diplomacy, pretty good prof. sailor, knowl. geography + nature, some survival) should be viable and fun around lvl 7 (which is where the group is at at the moment) no ToB (just me) some magic wouldn't be bad, but mainly buffs or something, she should be a melee-type she wears no armor, but still has a good or very good ac Taking those things into account, I came up with the lasher. ^_^ Lvl 7 Passive Way Monk 2 / Duskblade 3 / Pyrokineticist 1 / Duskblade +1 Fire Elf Feats: Combat Expertise, Wild Talent, Carmendine Monk, Deadly Defense, Evasion, Improved Trip, Weapon Finesse She'd be using the Pyrokineticist's Fire Lash to channel the duskblade spells as touch attacks with 15' reach. She gets int to ac, Combat Expertise in combination with (later) Einhander and Cobalt Expertise gives her passable AC. I guess she'll still enhance some bracers with armor, though. Disadvantages: 3 casterlevels and two feats lost to monk and pyrokineticist, no big deal to me. Bad skill-list with duskblade, that irks me. can't ever enchant her primary weapon, but 15' reach, threaten adjacent, always touch attack makes up for that i guess. But I'd love to hear other ideas. perhaps swashbuckler/pyrokineticist/duelist?
#2 sinfire_titan Mar 19, 2008 11:32:23	I have a list of 7000 reasons why you should never play an Elf for any melee character (or play an Elf, period). I'm not going to go through my stuff and find it though, as I am both lazy and AFB. But don't play an Elf. Human (Azurin is the best of them IMO), Gnome (Whisper is great), Halfling (Strongheart especially), and maybe Dwarf are better options. Dragonborn, Kobold (Desert), and Asherati (from Sandstorm) are all better races to play for a melee character. I say Asherati because they glow in the dark. And that just wins games outright. Hard to beat someone in a "Who's got the bigger ****" when their's glows in the dark. Oh, and Skarn are good too. Anyway, we could help you out more, but we need a list of books available. I see that Bo9S isn't something you want to use. You may wish to reconsider that. It works wonders for parties. At 7th level, it won't be too game-breaking. Still it will be great for you.
#3 nebelmond Mar 19, 2008 11:47:56	I'd gladly send every halfling around down the plank, really don't like the little buggers ^_^ dwarves may live, mostly because they ain't so openly obnoxious. and they mostly stick to their underground caverns, where they don't bother me. Well, not serious here, of course, but that's just me, I don't like those races a lot. Kobold always makes me think of that stupid little bugger in one of those neverwinter nights games (it was nwn, wasn't it?) but could be possible. Don't see how a kobold would be better than an elf, though. I don't think Asherati would take too well to the pirate way of life :P No restrictions on books i know of, but the one i wrote down. I don't know how our master feels about regional content, though, would have to ask him, we play in greyhawk with freeport thrown in for good measure. Nothing against ToB, really, I think it's just great for melee. But from my experiences so far being the only ToB user in a group makes it a tad powerfull. and White Raven Tactics for example is easily in reach with lvl 7. I don't know. Perhaps this is the wrong place for my question? Mostly I am looking for fun ways to make a light-hearted fun pirate inside the restrictions i put forth. My idea was that there's probably no other place with so much knowledge about what is possible so I asked here. ^_^
#4 Wyvernhand Mar 19, 2008 11:57:00	Go Grey Elf Rogue4/Swash3. Grey Elves get bonuses to both int and dex. Swash3 gives you int to damage and free Weapon Finesse. The feat Daring Outlaw gives lets you Rogue and Swash levels stack for sneak attack and grace. Continue advancing as a Swashbuckler after 7 to keep your BAB and sneak attack full. I wouldn't go completely unarmored. MW Leather or Mithril Chainshirt both have 0 armor check penalty, and provide a nice place to stack on enhancements that give bonuses to stealth skills or combat buffs such as Freedom or Death Ward. You'll also get better AC out of them then you will adding a stat unless your stats are INSANELY good. Other feats, since you are elven, you can take Racial Weapon Familiarity and use one of the elven X-blades from Races of the Wild. They are all finessable and have excellent crit ranges. Lightblades are like shortswords, but have the crit range of a rapier, excellent for duelwielding. A thinblade is like a longsword, again with the nice crit range. A courtblade is like a greatsword, which means you can 2hand power attack with it, if thats your style. Another feat to pick up is Craven, from Champions of Ruin. It adds your level to your sneak attack dice, so at level 7, you'll deal 4d6+7 damage per hit before weapon and other mods. This is nice, since it scales with level. Two Weapon Fighting would be great with all that juicey bonus damage flying around. Telling Blow allows you to apply your sneak attack on a foe you crit, regardless of flanking or flatfootedness. This synergizes well with the elven x-blades, since they have expanded crit ranges. Take the appropriate Improved Critical feat at 9th to double that range, or grab keen blade (or 2). Anything else?
#5 sinfire_titan Mar 19, 2008 12:03:58	I'd gladly send every halfling around down the plank, really don't like the little buggers ^_^ dwarves may live, mostly because they ain't so openly obnoxious. and they mostly stick to their underground caverns, where they don't bother me. Well, not serious here, of course, but that's just me, I don't like those races a lot. Kobold always makes me think of that stupid little bugger in one of those neverwinter nights games (it was nwn, wasn't it?) but could be possible. Don't see how a kobold would be better than an elf, though. I don't think Asherati would take too well to the pirate way of life :P No restrictions on books i know of, but the one i wrote down. I don't know how our master feels about regional content, though, would have to ask him, we play in greyhawk with freeport thrown in for good measure. Nothing against ToB, really, I think it's just great for melee. But from my experiences so far being the only ToB user in a group makes it a tad powerfull. and White Raven Tactics for example is easily in reach with lvl 7. I don't know. Perhaps this is the wrong place for my question? Mostly I am looking for fun ways to make a light-hearted fun pirate inside the restrictions i put forth. My idea was that there's probably no other place with so much knowledge about what is possible so I asked here. ^_^ I said Desert Kobolds, as the Swashbuckler uses Int instead of Str. And a little ToB isn't bad for you (Shadow Blade, Assassin's Stance+Daring Outlaw), so do keep it in consideration. The Martial Adept classes really only seem broken at levels 1-5. Until you hit about 7th-9th, they are just good at what they do. But once the casters pick up, then they show real weakness. But Kobolds get effectively +3 to AC at level 1. The Desert Kobold doesn't have a -2 Con too. Dragonwrought allows you to boost Int, Wis, and Cha by 3 each, while not taking the -6 to Str, Dex, and Con. And just because Asherati don't like swimming doesn't mean they can't be a pirate (think about having a ship that sails on sand instead of seawater). And you were right. You go either here or to TO for builds. Anywhere else just doesn't have the degree in advanced mathematics to deal with DnD. The Classes and General section do ok, but they just can't compare to a forum where we use Scientific Notation on an almost hourly basis. No offense to the rest of the boards, mind you. Anyway, for a good build, try this: Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Swashbuckler 16/Swordsage 2 Feats: 1st: Dragonwrought Flaw 1: Free Flaw 2: Free 3rd: Free 6th: Free 9th: Daring Outlaw 12th: Shadow Blade Take your second level of Swordsage at 8th, and grab the Assassin's Stance. Pick up a lot of Shadow Hand maneuvers. You will want them. You end up with Sneak Attack as though you were a high-level Rogue, get your Wis to AC, and get a ton of tricks to use. Never underestimate the power of a Kobold. They are a killer race. I also said Asherati because they get auto-profs with the Eagle's Claw, one very good light weapon. It functions with both Slashing Furry and Piercing Assault. And it has its own feat. Dual-wield those, and you have a house to deal with. Trickery Devotion on top of that, and kiss the enemy goodbye.
#6 sinfire_titan Mar 19, 2008 12:08:47	Go Grey Elf Rogue4/Swash3. Grey Elves get bonuses to both int and dex. Swash3 gives you int to damage and free Weapon Finesse. The feat Daring Outlaw gives lets you Rogue and Swash levels stack for sneak attack and grace. Continue advancing as a Swashbuckler after 7 to keep your BAB and sneak attack full. I wouldn't go completely unarmored. MW Leather or Mithril Chainshirt both have 0 armor check penalty, and provide a nice place to stack on enhancements that give bonuses to stealth skills or combat buffs such as Freedom or Death Ward. You'll also get better AC out of them then you will adding a stat unless your stats are INSANELY good. Other feats, since you are elven, you can take Racial Weapon Familiarity and use one of the elven X-blades from Races of the Wild. They are all finessable and have excellent crit ranges. Lightblades are like shortswords, but have the crit range of a rapier, excellent for duelwielding. A thinblade is like a longsword, again with the nice crit range. A courtblade is like a greatsword, which means you can 2hand power attack with it, if thats your style. Another feat to pick up is Craven, from Champions of Ruin. It adds your level to your sneak attack dice, so at level 7, you'll deal 4d6+7 damage per hit before weapon and other mods. This is nice, since it scales with level. Two Weapon Fighting would be great with all that juicey bonus damage flying around. Telling Blow allows you to apply your sneak attack on a foe you crit, regardless of flanking or flatfootedness. This synergizes well with the elven x-blades, since they have expanded crit ranges. Take the appropriate Improved Critical feat at 9th to double that range, or grab keen blade (or 2). Anything else? That would be the only flaw in this design. Yes, I am racist towards Elves. Unless they are WFRP Elves, in which case I am able to tolerate them.
#7 clem Mar 19, 2008 12:13:30	I say Asherati because they glow in the dark. And that just wins games outright. Hard to beat someone in a "Who's got the bigger ****" when their's glows in the dark. Might not be the race of choice for piratin' -- unless it's of the Eberron airship variety. Contact with water can be deadly for Asherati. As for the original poster's request, I'd say build something around battlefield control. In fights at sea everyone's going to find themselves in cramped quarters, and a 15' reach could easily go to waste. Book of Nine Swords has already received mention and it's ideal for battlefield control. I'd suggest something like a whisper gnome swordsage 2/swashbuckler 3/warblade 2. Invest in Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw for some two-weapon fighting benefits and Setting Sun for surprising your opponents with a Mighty Throw maneuver that sends them overboard.
#8 sinfire_titan Mar 19, 2008 12:17:22	Might not be the class of choice for piratin' -- unless it's of the Eberron airship variety. Contact with water can be deadly for Asherati. You know a lot of people in DnD don't know how to swim anyway? I don't think anything from these boards is going to want to make a Swim check. So it really doesn't matter if he can or can't, if he never leaves the boat. If he does, then all he needs is Shadow Jaunt to GTFO of there.
#9 pfooti Mar 19, 2008 12:26:50	You know a lot of people in DnD don't know how to swim anyway? I don't think anything from these boards is going to want to make a Swim check. So it really doesn't matter if he can or can't, if he never leaves the boat. If he does, then all he needs is Shadow Jaunt to GTFO of there. Not so. With one rank in swim, you can take 10 if you're not being attacked. All my characters tend to have enough ranks in swim to be able to swim in a calm setting by taking tens (usually just one rank, unless there's a strength penalty). They also tend to have at least one rank in jump, because otherwise you end up landing prone even if you do make your jump check.
#10 sinfire_titan Mar 19, 2008 12:29:36	Not so. With one rank in swim, you can take 10 if you're not being attacked. All my characters tend to have enough ranks in swim to be able to swim in a calm setting by taking tens (usually just one rank, unless there's a strength penalty). They also tend to have at least one rank in jump, because otherwise you end up landing prone even if you do make your jump check. ...Why spend ranks when you can get a magic item to breath underwater? And an unslotted one at that? At least until a tuna comes along and one swallows the Ioun Stone.
#11 clem Mar 19, 2008 12:31:06	You know a lot of people in DnD don't know how to swim anyway? I don't think anything from these boards is going to want to make a Swim check. So it really doesn't matter if he can or can't, if he never leaves the boat. If he does, then all he needs is Shadow Jaunt to GTFO of there. Well, a lot of people in D&D don't dissolve in a rain storm. Depending how far the DM is willing to go to depict life on the sea -- and whether he owns a copy of Stormwrack -- he could regularly hit the crew with Master & Commander style storms. Only prayer for an Asherati in that situation is to find himself a watertight cask and seal himself inside. Certainly rife with role-playing possibilities, but not that optimal.
#12 tshern Mar 19, 2008 12:31:30	...Why spend ranks when you can get a magic item to breath underwater? And an unslotted one at that? At least until a tuna comes along and one swallows the Ioun Stone. That is exactly what one of my DMs would do just for kicks.
#13 pfooti Mar 19, 2008 12:32:12	Heh. Mostly because most of my characters start life at 1. And at level 1, you have to worry about mundane stuff like moving around. By the time you get to level 7 or so, you're over that. Fly, teleport, or whatever, any way you slice it, walking (swimming, climbing, jumping) is for chumps.
#14 robbypants Mar 19, 2008 12:37:21	Go Grey Elf Rogue4/Swash3. Grey Elves get bonuses to both int and dex. Swash3 gives you int to damage and free Weapon Finesse. The feat Daring Outlaw gives lets you Rogue and Swash levels stack for sneak attack and grace. Continue advancing as a Swashbuckler after 7 to keep your BAB and sneak attack full. I wouldn't go completely unarmored. MW Leather or Mithril Chainshirt both have 0 armor check penalty, and provide a nice place to stack on enhancements that give bonuses to stealth skills or combat buffs such as Freedom or Death Ward. You'll also get better AC out of them then you will adding a stat unless your stats are INSANELY good. This is almost word for word what I was going to suggest. If the race has to be elf, then grey elf is a good way to go. Still, your HP are going to be a bit low, so you'll have to be careful. The only problem is that this build doesn't do too much for your AC. You could eventually take levels in Invisible Blade or Duelist for the Canny Defense (Int bonus to AC), but there are two problems with that: The PrCs aren't that good. Canny Defense caps at class level, so you can't dip in and get more than a +1 bonus. You could do what you initially suggested with monk and Carmendine Monk, but I don't think that works too well. Now, I don't know how Carmendine Monk works with the Ninja class from Complete Adventurer, and I'm not sure if Ninja works for Daring Outlaw. I know that the Sudden Strike feature can be used in liu of Sneak Attack, but then you can't use the ability while flanking. All in all, I'd say use the build above and wear a mithril shirt. It nets you +4 AC, has no armor check penalty, can be enchanted, and can be worn under clothes, so people won't know you're wearing armor.
#15 sinfire_titan Mar 19, 2008 12:37:27	Well, a lot of people in D&D don't dissolve in a rain storm. Depending how far the DM is willing to go to depict life on the sea -- and whether he owns a copy of Stormwrack -- he could regularly hit the crew with Master & Commander style storms. Only prayer for an Asherati in that situation is to find himself a watertight cask and seal himself inside. Certainly rife with role-playing possibilities, but not that optimal. AFB, so I don't know if Asherati take actual damage from being splashed with water. But IIRC, they are merely sickened for 1 round. Something that is easily ignored. And I know it isn't optimal for sea-travel. But for dual-wielding Eagle Claws, it is really decent. Think like being a Human, but trading the Feat and Skill Points for being a walking night-lite, having the ability to be a Mole at will, and EWP with the Eagle Claw. Oh, and a free feat that can get you Fire Resistance 5 at 12th. Not a bad trade. I just like the race for that free EWP. That is exactly what one of my DMs would do just for kicks. And I'm the kind of DM who has the fish get stuck on the stone and makes it orbit your head too.
#16 nebelmond Mar 21, 2008 14:32:52	*Sighs* I really really liked the visual idea of a pirate queen with her flaming whip. But I found no way of making it work other than duskblade or power attack and both don't really fit my idea. Daring Outlaw look like the best bet really, but setting up sneak attacks without ever flanking anybody (why should she stand next to someone with 15' reach?) sounds like a pain. So I have reevaluated ToB. ^_^ Guess I will go with it after all, a little bit at least. I just wish strikes would work with the fire lash. At the moment I have a Whisper Gnome, (Feat) Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Swordsage 2 with Combat Expertise, Dodge, Titan Fighting, EWP (Broadblade Shortsword), Adaptive Style, Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse as Feats. She'll mostly use Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind maneuvers, dealing concentration check damage when i'm doing only one attack a round anyway sounds good. With just a mithral chainshirt +1, dastanas and a broadblade shortsword +1 she reaches 28 ac against a single bigger opponent (most people are bigger than a gnome) with just a -2 to attack from combat expertise. And she has plenty of skillpoints to play pirate queen. Still missing my whip. ^_^
#17 skydragonknight Mar 21, 2008 15:02:54	*Sighs* I really really liked the visual idea of a pirate queen with her flaming whip. So I have reevaluated ToB. ^_^ Guess I will go with it after all, a little bit at least. I just wish strikes would work with the fire lash. I believe this ToB Pyrokineticist build might be of some help. It's located in TG's ToB Build Compendium, if you're wondering. Biggest problem I see is Low BAB at early levels before JPM. Other than the Desert Wind maneuvers that pile on more fire damage, there's a lot of flexability with maneuvers.