Lock-Down Crusader Conundrum - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Vicerious Jun 04, 2008 0:13:35	I've been playing a lock-down style crusader (using the build in the ToB for Dummies thread) and am now 5th level with 6th just around the corner. There's just one little thing I'm torn over, and that's what feat to take at 6th level. My character is human, and his progression thus far looks like this: 1, H Stand Still, Combat Reflexes 3 Extra Granted Maneuver I'm wrestling with picking either Combat Expertise (and Improved Trip at 9th) or Mage Slayer. Both seem like good methods of keeping control of the battlefield, but one requires one less feat. My character's been using a guisarme and armor spikes to good effect, supplemented in no small part by my party-mates - a melee cleric, TWF warblade, conjuration domain wizard, and an archery ranger. So the question I'm posing is: Combat Expertise and Improved Trip or Mage Slayer? And if Mage Slayer, then what feat at 9th?
#2 erhnamdj Jun 04, 2008 0:25:13	Has your DM been throwing many humanoid opponents at you? If he's prone to picking things from the monster manuals, you won't get much from improved trip.
#3 reis Jun 04, 2008 2:30:51	no exotic weapon proficiency: spiked chain? also take power attack, deft opportunist don't bother with improved trip its far inferior to stand still and mage slayer
#4 caspain Jun 04, 2008 6:43:54	I have something close to this Mage Slayer build you're talking about. Figher6 Crusader5 (should hit Crusader6 thursday!) Feats: Power Attack, Imp Bullrush, Blind Fight, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection, Shock Trooper, Pierce Magical Concealment I use a one-hand and tower shield and basically go for AC over everything except Strength. This allows me to wade through the melee to the caster, who then can't cast defensively and usually backs up toward a wall, at which point I squish him against it. Taking Charging Minotaur adds to my Dungeon Crasher build with great amounts of win. (10d6 +(Str*4)) Soon as I can I'll be taking Thicket Of Blades, so as to make them provoke one way or another, I'll also be taking Combat Reflexes finally(I thought the other stuff was more important). If you are taking Mage Slayer I STRONGLY suggest the PMP and PMC feats. You ignore magical concealment and mirror images, as well as gain the ability to crush that overly buffed caster (shield, greater mage armor, dragon skin? I'll ignore all the AC bonuses you gain from those and dispel them when I hit you, NO CHECK they're just gone!~) With this build, given you have a decent amount of Con (I have 124 HP with a 16 Con) You can also become the 'rogue' and deal with any trap you come across by taking it to the face! Locked Adamantine door? Dungeon Crasher gives you +10 to break/burst +str (my mod is 7 w/ belt) +armbands of might +Stone foot stance +battering ram = +23 to break burst aka no more adamantine door.
#5 Vicerious Jun 04, 2008 16:01:13	No, no spiked chain for me. I didn't have room in the build to take exotic weapon proficiency, you see. My full build is as follows:
#6 floatlikeabee Jun 04, 2008 19:36:43	I'd honestly suggest a 1 or 2 level fighter dip for Blind Fight (and Combat Expertise). The ability to negate the +4 to hit against you with Expertise is amazing, and Blind Fight is a prerequisite for Pierce Magical Concealment. If you're going 1 level in, you might as well go 2 levels in, as either way you're only "losing" 1 level of Crusader effectively with the IL bump from 2 levels of Fighter. If you're really not feeling the idea of Expertise, you can delay your 2nd level of Fighter until 12th, and pick up Pierce Magical Protection and use your fighter feat for Robilar's Gambit. This gives you all the Mage Slaying you want, ever (and remember, sometimes non-mages have mage buffs too!). All you need is a focused abjurer behind you Sudden Maximizing Reciprocal Gyre's, and you'll see nothing but unbuffed baddies for the rest of your days. Unfortunately, no level is really 'convenient' to start delaying Crusader, but the sooner you can take the level of fighter, the better. You're already ahead of the standard 'mobs' that are being thrown at you by being a defensively focused tome of battle character, so taking the hit for now before it can actually pay off isn't too bad. My vote is Mage Slayer at 6, dip fighter at 9 to get Blind Fight and Pierce Magical Concealment, dip fighter at 12 to get Robilar's Gambit and Pierce Magical Protection (or Combat Expertise). (Btw, while Pierce Magical Protection is a Standard Action (though as a crusader, you're used to it, think of it as a maneuver that's never expended :D), Pierce Magical Concealment is always active, and therefore the superior initial choice)
#7 Vicerious Jun 04, 2008 21:55:09	Thanks for the well-presented advice. I've submitted the idea of taking Mage Slayer to my DM. Now it just hinges on his OK; if he clears it, I'll push all the way through with two levels of fighter, as FloatLikeABee suggested. If he puts the kibosh on it, I'll probably still take Combat Expertise for use with the Gambit, but I'll still need a replacement for Improved Trip at 9th.
#8 eldariel Jun 05, 2008 5:33:27	Don't forget that you need to spend four skill points for two cross-class ranks in Spellcraft for Mage Slayer. But I agree with practically everyone, if you want to be useful versus casting creatures at any point, get Mage Slayer so you don't have to ready actions for their spellcasting. Essentially, thanks to it you can be attacking too (although since Strikes are Standard Actions, readying them for X is no problem). Also agreed, Pierce Magical Concealment is a fine ability, allowing you to keep AoOing people with concealment granted by magical effects (if opponent has any degree of cover or concealment, you can't do AoOs) and ignoring Mirror Image. If you take the second Fighter-level, also consider EWP: Spiked Chain and Power Attack as alternatives; Power Attack just tends to be really, really good for melee types and Spiked Chain tends to be really, really good for lockdown types. Finally, you're an AoO type, Deft Opportunist is an OMG-level feat for you. +4 to all AoOs goes a long way to ensuring you'll never miss. Depending on your DM, Pierce Magical Protection can either be relatively strong or completely useless; if it pierces any spells that affect AC such as Polymorph (in games where it's used), Cat's Grace and so on, it's a great ability (especially if Polymorph-line is allowed). If it pierces only spells such as Mage Armor and Protection from X, it's relatively useless as those bonuses get meaningless for melee types very quick, especially on AoOs. Therefore it's just not worth the action to strip them of those protections as most mages won't even bother with those spells and you don't really care even vs. those who do. Either way it's rather specialized so I tend to shy away from it.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Vicerious

Jun 04, 2008 0:13:35

I've been playing a lock-down style crusader (using the build in the ToB for Dummies thread) and am now 5th level with 6th just around the corner. There's just one little thing I'm torn over, and that's what feat to take at 6th level. My character is human, and his progression thus far looks like this:

1, H Stand Still, Combat Reflexes
3 Extra Granted Maneuver

I'm wrestling with picking either Combat Expertise (and Improved Trip at 9th) or Mage Slayer. Both seem like good methods of keeping control of the battlefield, but one requires one less feat. My character's been using a guisarme and armor spikes to good effect, supplemented in no small part by my party-mates - a melee cleric, TWF warblade, conjuration domain wizard, and an archery ranger.

So the question I'm posing is: Combat Expertise and Improved Trip or Mage Slayer? And if Mage Slayer, then what feat at 9th?

erhnamdj

Jun 04, 2008 0:25:13

Has your DM been throwing many humanoid opponents at you? If he's prone to picking things from the monster manuals, you won't get much from improved trip.

reis

Jun 04, 2008 2:30:51

no exotic weapon proficiency: spiked chain?

also take power attack, deft opportunist

don't bother with improved trip its far inferior to stand still and mage slayer

caspain

Jun 04, 2008 6:43:54

I have something close to this Mage Slayer build you're talking about.

Figher6 Crusader5 (should hit Crusader6 thursday!)
Feats: Power Attack, Imp Bullrush, Blind Fight, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection, Shock Trooper, Pierce Magical Concealment

I use a one-hand and tower shield and basically go for AC over everything except Strength. This allows me to wade through the melee to the caster, who then can't cast defensively and usually backs up toward a wall, at which point I squish him against it. Taking Charging Minotaur adds to my Dungeon Crasher build with great amounts of win. (10d6 +(Str*4))

Soon as I can I'll be taking Thicket Of Blades, so as to make them provoke one way or another, I'll also be taking Combat Reflexes finally(I thought the other stuff was more important).

If you are taking Mage Slayer I STRONGLY suggest the PMP and PMC feats. You ignore magical concealment and mirror images, as well as gain the ability to crush that overly buffed caster (shield, greater mage armor, dragon skin? I'll ignore all the AC bonuses you gain from those and dispel them when I hit you, NO CHECK they're just gone!~)

With this build, given you have a decent amount of Con (I have 124 HP with a 16 Con) You can also become the 'rogue' and deal with any trap you come across by taking it to the face! Locked Adamantine door? Dungeon Crasher gives you +10 to break/burst +str (my mod is 7 w/ belt) +armbands of might +Stone foot stance +battering ram = +23 to break burst aka no more adamantine door.

Vicerious

Jun 04, 2008 16:01:13

No, no spiked chain for me. I didn't have room in the build to take exotic weapon proficiency, you see. My full build is as follows:

floatlikeabee

Jun 04, 2008 19:36:43

I'd honestly suggest a 1 or 2 level fighter dip for Blind Fight (and Combat Expertise). The ability to negate the +4 to hit against you with Expertise is amazing, and Blind Fight is a prerequisite for Pierce Magical Concealment. If you're going 1 level in, you might as well go 2 levels in, as either way you're only "losing" 1 level of Crusader effectively with the IL bump from 2 levels of Fighter.

If you're really not feeling the idea of Expertise, you can delay your 2nd level of Fighter until 12th, and pick up Pierce Magical Protection and use your fighter feat for Robilar's Gambit. This gives you all the Mage Slaying you want, ever (and remember, sometimes non-mages have mage buffs too!). All you need is a focused abjurer behind you Sudden Maximizing Reciprocal Gyre's, and you'll see nothing but unbuffed baddies for the rest of your days.

Unfortunately, no level is really 'convenient' to start delaying Crusader, but the sooner you can take the level of fighter, the better. You're already ahead of the standard 'mobs' that are being thrown at you by being a defensively focused tome of battle character, so taking the hit for now before it can actually pay off isn't too bad.

My vote is Mage Slayer at 6, dip fighter at 9 to get Blind Fight and Pierce Magical Concealment, dip fighter at 12 to get Robilar's Gambit and Pierce Magical Protection (or Combat Expertise).

(Btw, while Pierce Magical Protection is a Standard Action (though as a crusader, you're used to it, think of it as a maneuver that's never expended :D), Pierce Magical Concealment is always active, and therefore the superior initial choice)

Vicerious

Jun 04, 2008 21:55:09

Thanks for the well-presented advice. I've submitted the idea of taking Mage Slayer to my DM. Now it just hinges on his OK; if he clears it, I'll push all the way through with two levels of fighter, as FloatLikeABee suggested. If he puts the kibosh on it, I'll probably still take Combat Expertise for use with the Gambit, but I'll still need a replacement for Improved Trip at 9th.

eldariel

Jun 05, 2008 5:33:27

Don't forget that you need to spend four skill points for two cross-class ranks in Spellcraft for Mage Slayer. But I agree with practically everyone, if you want to be useful versus casting creatures at any point, get Mage Slayer so you don't have to ready actions for their spellcasting. Essentially, thanks to it you can be attacking too (although since Strikes are Standard Actions, readying them for X is no problem).

Also agreed, Pierce Magical Concealment is a fine ability, allowing you to keep AoOing people with concealment granted by magical effects (if opponent has any degree of cover or concealment, you can't do AoOs) and ignoring Mirror Image.

If you take the second Fighter-level, also consider EWP: Spiked Chain and Power Attack as alternatives; Power Attack just tends to be really, really good for melee types and Spiked Chain tends to be really, really good for lockdown types. Finally, you're an AoO type, Deft Opportunist is an OMG-level feat for you. +4 to all AoOs goes a long way to ensuring you'll never miss.

Depending on your DM, Pierce Magical Protection can either be relatively strong or completely useless; if it pierces any spells that affect AC such as Polymorph (in games where it's used), Cat's Grace and so on, it's a great ability (especially if Polymorph-line is allowed). If it pierces only spells such as Mage Armor and Protection from X, it's relatively useless as those bonuses get meaningless for melee types very quick, especially on AoOs. Therefore it's just not worth the action to strip them of those protections as most mages won't even bother with those spells and you don't really care even vs. those who do. Either way it's rather specialized so I tend to shy away from it.